Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[Purple]

you guys keep saying TL =/

 

[Yink]

you guys keep saying TL =/

*shrugs* I saw it too, we're talking about the big guy haha.

Oh I forgot to mention, the best thing you can do to the Ness offstage is force the double jump right away. Most of the time, they're not going to use it unless they really have to to make sure they don't risk anything with PKT2.

So yeah, as I said before just start spamming bombs, it's like when Mario spams fireballs or ICs spam ice block. Do this, and you'll have a lot easier time getting the KO.

 

[milesg2g]

I'm talking about Link lol
Ness can easily approach him. The only thing I see that Link has. Is the fact that they share a good CP.
Brinstar

 

[KirinBlaze]

Link's Upsmash beats PKT2.
All projectiles stop it I believe.
Ness's PKT2 has terrible when compared to some other moves.
It just has some **** knock back. lol
You can shield grab it too.

I'm talking about Link lol
Ness can easily approach him. The only thing I see that Link has. Is the fact that they share a good CP.
Brinstar

We have a guaranteed KO/damage builder on you.
Zair is not easy to approach.
Utilt beats everything coming from above Link, with the exception of Fair I believe.

I'm not saying we win, I just think you're underestimating Link a bit.
I've played good Ness's and Link can make it very hard for Ness to get inside.
Likewise Ness can make it difficult for Link if he does get in.
The match-up goes both ways. They can both reliably KO one another and have the tools to space extremely well against one another and **** the other up if one of them makes a mistake. In the end the offstage stuff for Link is a little worse then it is for Ness, hence the 55 for Ness.

We aren't Toon Link. We have the KO set up and we KO better. Link's camp game is also more full hop based which gives it better vertical spacing, making it harder for Ness to jump around over stuff like he would with Toon Link who's camp game, while faster, is more SH based and covers less vertical spacing because of this.

It's 55:45 Ness.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Link's Upsmash beats PKT2.
All projectiles stop it I believe.
Ness's PKT2 has terrible when compared to some other moves.
It just has some **** knock back. lol
You can shield grab it too.



We have a guaranteed KO/damage builder on you.
Zair is not easy to approach.
Utilt beats everything coming from above Link, with the exception of Fair I believe.

I'm not saying we win, I just think you're underestimating Link a bit.
I've played good Ness's and Link can make it very hard for Ness to get inside.
Likewise Ness can make it difficult for Link if he does get in.
The match-up goes both ways. They can both reliably KO one another and have the tools to space extremely well against one another and **** the other up if one of them makes a mistake. In the end the offstage stuff for Link is a little worse then it is for Ness, hence the 55 for Ness.

We aren't Toon Link. We have the KO set up and we KO better. Link's camp game is also more full hop based which gives it better vertical spacing, making it harder for Ness to jump around over stuff like he would with Toon Link who's camp game, while faster, is more SH based and covers less vertical spacing because of this.

It's 55:45 Ness.

From what you said, I still thing that 50:50 is more accurate. Link has a better spam game, better KOing potential, equal or greater gimping ability, better distancing tools, etc, and I think that that's more than enough reason to make the matchup 50:50.

 

[Yink]

From what you said, I still thing that 50:50 is more accurate. Link has a better spam game, better KOing potential, equal or greater gimping ability, better distancing tools, etc, and I think that that's more than enough reason to make the matchup 50:50.

I'm sorry, did you really just say Link can KO better than Ness?

Link has:

Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Utilt, Ftilt (I asked a Link about these to make sure)

Ness has:

Dair, Nair (yes, it does kill), Bthrow, Bair, PKT2, PKF (really, it sucks to get PKF spiked)

Based on what I see...Link has better spams, better distancing. He does not KO better than Ness, his gimping ability is equal AT BEST. If you want to argue 50:50 I'm going to want to see more than that. If Ness gets you offstage it's really a total nightmare. You can either get PKF spiked, Dair spiked, hit with PKT1...etc.

 

[Rizen]

Link can survive to high %s with good DI, 150%+ easy, and he has better KOing potential. But Link is a damage magnet from combos and will die easily off stage. Power KOing Link is more difficult than Link power KOing Ness. That said, getting Link off stage is easy once Ness infiltrates Link's 'bubble'. KOing Link is more about exploiting his cr***y recovery.
Off stage Link has tons of anti -gimp options; Link will spam like crazy and out draws Ness' spam, we can Zair/Fair if Ness approaches and hold a bomb to renew our upB. ...but our recovery's so bad that we'll die anyway. If I wanted Ness to win I'd CP Battlefield. Link, Final Destination.
55/45 Ness

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

I'm sorry, did you really just say Link can KO better than Ness?

Link has:

Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Utilt, Ftilt (I asked a Link about these to make sure)

Ness has:

Dair, Nair (yes, it does kill), Bthrow, Bair, PKT2, PKF (really, it sucks to get PKF spiked)

Based on what I see...Link has better spams, better distancing. He does not KO better than Ness, his gimping ability is equal AT BEST. If you want to argue 50:50 I'm going to want to see more than that. If Ness gets you offstage it's really a total nightmare. You can either get PKF spiked, Dair spiked, hit with PKT1...etc.

Most of Ness's KO moves are situational. Link's can be excecuted at nearly any time. Better KOing potential? I really think so. And, Link's Grounded UpB and Usmash can KO. Just thought I'd make a note of that .

Remember that Ness is a lightweight character, and thus, easier to KO.

Honestly, PKT2's less effective than you might think. I'm pretty sure it can be cancelled by any projectile. It's still a good move, just not so effective against Link.

One of Link's **** spotdodges can easily avoid it as well.

Off the edge, yeah, Ness owns Link, as he does in any airgame situation (though the same could be said of any Smash Character ). However, I say it's 50:50 because Link's groundgame outclasses Ness's by a good margin.

Now, I'm not saying that Link's better than Ness (he really isn't), but that they both have equal potential to win this MU.


As for the stage, Link has the advantage on Final Destination. Apart from that, I can't say.

 

[AvariceX]

Link's Upsmash beats PKT2.

Stop! STOP STOP STOP!

Everyone trying to figure out what beats PKT2: The first half of the distance/duration of PKT2 is invincible; NOTHING beats it. The second half of PKT2 is like any other move; if you can out-range it with a disjoint you can beat it.

 

[_clinton]

Remember that Ness is a lightweight character, and thus, easier to KO.

Actually Ness and Lucas are middleweight characters that are right under the Mario Bros by comparison. They just are small targets because stuff like that is fun. Lucas also has one of this game's best recoveries, in that both his and Ness' 2nd jump actually have more horizontal distance than quite a few other recoveries if you can believe that.

Of course Lucas has more than just a great 2nd jump and a stalling option to help him, he has a better stalling option, a tether that beats Link's in horizontal distance (yes it does), and a way to more than double his 2nd jumps distance and range, oh and his PK thunder is beating Fox's Fire fox in distance and after using it his air speed doesn't slow down at all, so if you're like me and actually like PKT even as a recovery move for some reason, you have a nice thing with Lucas. ^_^

Honestly, PKT2's less effective than you might think.

Well yeah, that is why PKT1 is there, it makes the move not suck. ^_^

However, I say it's 50:50 because Link's groundgame outclasses Ness's by a good margin.

To be fair, Ness' ground game is "just there." It has some plus' for it so it doesn't out right fail like oh say Jiggs, but its "just there."

Stop! STOP STOP STOP!

Everyone trying to figure out what beats PKT2: The first half of the distance/duration of PKT2 is invincible; NOTHING beats it. The second half of PKT2 is like any other move; if you can out-range it with a disjoint you can beat it.

I wish they would have read the part where I explained that "jabs" beat the 2nd part and said the 1st part was invulnerable as well.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Actually Ness and Lucas are middleweight characters that are right under the Mario Bros by comparison. They just are small targets because stuff like that is fun.

I didn't know that : P

That does present a bit more of a problem for Link.

I'd still argue that this MU's 50:50, but 55:45 might actually be more accurate.

Let's split the difference and call it 52:48

 

[_clinton]

Actually talking some more on Link's grab release Dsmash, it seems like only the sour spot of Dsmash is certain. However, I'm not sure though.

 

[Rizen]

Actually talking some more on Link's grab release Dsmash, it seems like only the sour spot of Dsmash is certain. However, I'm not sure though.

Link doesn't really have sour spots. It is a small factor, but Dsmash does well no mater where it hits.

 

[_clinton]

Based off my testing done in SV in training mode at the center of the stage with no DI when looking at our kill moves:

For Link the sweet spot of Dsmash kills Ness at around 105%, the one spot you guys have with your GR needs about 131% before it will kill Ness but it seems to launch at a 45 degree angle.

Ness' Bthrow is actually close in power to the sweetspot of Dsmash when fresh (110%) by comparison and also launches you at a 45 degree angle (btw this is on Link so I'm aware DI affects his living %, but there is no way I see you living past 130% with Bthrow).

Overall Bthrow seems better than your GR that you have for a kill move IMO.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Well, I'd say that about wraps it up, yeah?

Next MU?

 

[_clinton]

Well, I'd say that about wraps it up, yeah?

Next MU?

Well I also disagree with you saying Ness' kill moves are mostly situational as well, what with him having air moves that kill, set ups to his kills, and so on (Ness like Link has a jab lock just for some random info).

 

[Scabe]

What are some good stages and bad stages for Ness?

 

[Rizen]

Based off my testing done in SV in training mode at the center of the stage with no DI when looking at our kill moves:

For Link the sweet spot of Dsmash kills Ness at around 105%, the one spot you guys have with your GR needs about 131% before it will kill Ness but it seems to launch at a 45 degree angle.

Ness' Bthrow is actually close in power to the sweetspot of Dsmash when fresh (110%) by comparison and also launches you at a 45 degree angle (btw this is on Link so I'm aware DI affects his living %, but there is no way I see you living past 130% with Bthrow).

Overall Bthrow seems better than your GR that you have for a kill move IMO.

Bthrow is better. I've survived a Bthrow at over 130% that threw across the length of a stage. For the most part it will kill at that % but not always.
Grab release is situational to when Link can successfully grab and grabbing is risky. Sometimes Dsmashing is easier. It's not guaranteed, but jab canceling is a good option for us to KO from. We might have a grab release sweet spot Dsmash on small platforms and near edges.

 

[milesg2g]

What are some good stages and bad stages for Ness?

We


Won't


Tell you.


lol jk jk but i seriously dn't know

 

[Purple]

Umm, well what's ness good at? We can find what stages work best for him just with that.

I don't play ness much, however wouldn't Brinstar be good with it's easy mobility around the stage, chances of not getting gimped, and easy kills off the side?

 

[Metro Knight]

I like Yoshi's Island, the one that Wolf is amazing on. Ness and Lucas will bounce of the stage if he hits it. And you can galeguard pretty easily versus him. It is just a bad stage for his recovery.

Ness hits like a truck. His uair and bair are both great kill moves, and his bthrow is really good. His moves also come out really fast. Not the bat or the yo-yo, but everything else is pretty fast.

 

[Rizen]

Umm, well what's ness good at? We can find what stages work best for him just with that.

I don't play ness much, however wouldn't Brinstar be good with it's easy mobility around the stage, chances of not getting gimped, and easy kills off the side?

I would pick Final Destination because Link can avoid edges and has room to spam Ness' air game. PS1 if they ban FD.
Brinstar has it's pros, but Ness' PKfire might be a real pain (does PKF burn on the stage elements?). Ness has good grab setups and can recover through the stage. He also can use air attacks with more freedom to hit Link offstage.


Q for the Ness players: Does PK Flash have any good uses?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Umm, well what's ness good at?

Falling off the stage and dying, just like Link, but Link does that slightly better, so I'd put a slight advantage to Ness in this matchup based off of this.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Take Ness to Final Destination or Rainbow Cruise.

Final Destination because... Well, Ness doesn't have any advantages over Link here.

And Rainbow Cruise because it nullifies several of Ness's moves, making PKT2 too risky and any grabs harder to get.

 

[Scabe]

Can you attack Ness PKT1 with anything?

 

[KirinBlaze]

Yes but just hitting Ness with a bomb during this is better. Apperently he loses any jumps he had.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only grab set-up I think Ness has is a fast falled Fair, PKfire if they don't DI/SDI out, and Dtilt.

So Ness can KO well with Bthrow, which is good to have a throw that kills, but his grab range is still lacking.

I either throw bombs at offstage Ness or quick draw arrows to try and nail PK thunder.

FD is fantastic vs Ness, if not I'd recommend something like Brinstar. I've played on cruise before it's not bad, but Link still needs to be careful since there are a lot of opportunities to gimp him on this stage.

I think this is 50:50, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

The only grab set-up I think Ness has is a fast falled Fair, PKfire if they don't DI/SDI out, and Dtilt.

So Ness can KO well with Bthrow, which is good to have a throw that kills, but his grab range is still lacking.

I either throw bombs at offstage Ness or quick draw arrows to try and nail PK thunder.

FD is fantastic vs Ness, if not I'd recommend something like Brinstar. I've played on cruise before it's not bad, but Link still needs to be careful since there are a lot of opportunities to gimp him on this stage.

I think this is 50:50, but that's just my opinion.

I would suggest NOT taking Ness to Brinstar, its one of his best stages.

High ceiling plus closer horizontal blastzones. He can also do PKfire BS on the stages sides and barrels, which is more overpowered then you think actually, its kinda ridiculous imo.

 

[KirinBlaze]

It's 55:45 Ness. Trust me.

Take Ness to a place like Halberd. You camp a lot better there and KO's come a little bit easier. Smaller ceiling makes Grab Release>DSmash a really reliable KO move.

For just about any MU for Link, with the exception of Snake and perhaps GnW, you can take the opponent to Halberd and do rather well. It's Link's best stage, imo.

 

[Purple]

Oh by the way, when i was talking about Brinstar, i was noting what's a good stage for ness, not a good stage for link, lol XD.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Oh by the way, when i was talking about Brinstar, i was noting what's a good stage for ness, not a good stage for link, lol XD.

Yes, I understood your post, thats why I quoted Ryu and not you :]

 

[_clinton]

Ness hits like a truck. His uair and bair are both great kill moves, and his bthrow is really good. His moves also come out really fast. Not the bat or the yo-yo, but everything else is pretty fast.

The Yo-yo comes out on frames 8 and 10 (up and down), they just end at frame 60+ or so as far as cooldown goes, oh and both hits aren't always linking with each other so that is an issue as well. They make an ok tool to use with your foe is hanging on the ledge and for dealing with people who use defensive movements too much at least (chance at a yo-yo spike).

But yeah Ness moves overall come out pretty fast "I guess"

The bat is the 2nd slowest move Ness has at least for start up time in general (Dair is still a bit faster). Well actually 3rd slowest if you count the fastest time possible you can activate PKT2 from PKT1 (60 frames).

Brinstar has it's pros, but Ness' PKfire might be a real pain (does PKF burn on the stage elements?).

Yes to stage elements and PK fire being set off from them.

Q for the Ness players: Does PK Flash have any good uses?

Guess what the slowest move Ness has for start up (2nd slowest if you count PKT2) is?

PK flash has two uses, edge guard tool and an umbrella because while it is his slowest special for coming out, it is his fastest special as far as cool down goes.

Yes but just hitting Ness with a bomb during this is better. Apperently he loses any jumps he had.

Ness doesn't lose any jumps unless he uses them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would suggest NOT taking Ness to Brinstar, its one of his best stages.

High ceiling plus closer horizontal blastzones. He can also do PKfire BS on the stages sides and barrels, which is more overpowered then you think actually, its kinda ridiculous imo.

None of the Ness's I played worked on abusing PKfire on Brinstar at least not to levels I'm imagining, like exclusively working on getting the BS off, so I can't comment to much on that. I'll take your word for it though, since I fight Lucas more than Ness and even the ones I do fight I haven't seen them work on abusing PKfire at those points.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

None of the Ness's I played worked on abusing PKfire on Brinstar at least not to levels I'm imagining, like exclusively working on getting the BS off, so I can't comment to much on that. I'll take your word for it though, since I fight Lucas more than Ness and even the ones I do fight I haven't seen them work on abusing PKfire at those points.

Hey, if anything, don't take Ness to Brinstar because Link's projectile spam becomes less useful there. In a MU where about half the damage you deal comes from projectile spam, you can't have that.

Halberd > Brinstar

Final Destination > Halberd

There you go ; D

 

[Purple]

Pretty much, it's not exactly what they do Red Ryu but what they can possibly do after adapting. Always best to play low-level nesses just like you would play high-level.

I've personally seen shaky from FL go to Halberd quite often.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Hey, if anything, don't take Ness to Brinstar because Link's projectile spam becomes less useful there. In a MU where about half the damage you deal comes from projectile spam, you can't have that.

Halberd > Brinstar

Final Destination > Halberd

There you go ; D

I don't know about FD being better then Halberd in this matchup, I would assume Halberd is better.

 

[Lawz.]

Hey, if anything, don't take Ness to Brinstar because Link's projectile spam becomes less useful there. In a MU where about half the damage you deal comes from projectile spam, you can't have that.

Halberd > Brinstar

Final Destination > Halberd

There you go ; D

Halberd is better than both Brinstar and FD when it comes to CPing against Ness.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Halberd is better than both Brinstar and FD when it comes to CPing against Ness.

I dunno, Halberd's a bit short for my tastes, but maybe it's just personal preference.

 

[_clinton]

I like Halberd but that is just me, why does Link like it though?

 

[KirinBlaze]

-King of Halberd.- Vex knows.

Link can camp VERY well on that stage, especially the first part. If Link takes the center stage under the platform he can make it extremely difficult for anyone to get inside, and the platform above hinders opponents from getting in above Link. The 'bottomless' stage as I'll call it for now can't be abused by a lot of characters other then Meta Knight because of the fear that Link can throw out a Dair and take you out if you're not spaced correctly.

All of this applies to the second half of the stage except the fall through stage.

Halberd has a low cieling as well as smaller then average blastzones on the side. This makes KOing so much easier for Link. Dair and Smash KO extremely early on light/mid weight and even some heavy characters.

The stage is super camp friendly and Link can take advantage of some of the stage hazards as well. Low ceilings/blastzones make for easy KOing.