Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[Metro Knight]

Good Stages versus Wolf:

Brinstar
FD
Norfair
Halberd

Neutral ones:

Lylat
Frigate
Smashville
Battlefield
Jungle Japes (Don't use vertical kill moves.
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino
Luigi's Mansion
Castle Siege
Pictochat

Bad ones:

Yoshi's Island (Wii)
Rainbow Cruise

Conditional:

Pirate Ship*

*I dislike Pirate ship versus Wolf players who use the BAIR a lot. My brother doesn't do that as much as other people I have played. My brother is better than those players, however, I beat my brother's campy wolf on Pirate Ship, yet I lose to the bair whores while playing on it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Olimar,

Choose your character.

btw, I vote Sonic.

 

[Scabe]

I have some matchup experience with all of them except Diddy Kong.

 

[Purple]

Soni c

 

[Scabe]

I'll try to upload a vid of playing a Sonic from like 2009. Of course it's not at pro level but it should help a bit.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Looks like people made up their mind.

Sonic is a gogo.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic has a small but definite advantage here. hes fast enough to get inside links projectile barrage, even if he takes some % along the way, link has a range and power and weight advantage here, but sonic has just enough gimping and movement ability to win the matchup. what do we as sonics need to know, and ill let you know what to beware of.

 

[Scabe]

Hitting Sonic is so hard since he's so fast. Even with projectiles it's still a pain.

I wonder what Link can do against his Spin attacks. Like what moves would clank with it and stuff.

I know that following Link up into the air and trying to kill off the top with Sonic's Up B then Up air can be dangerous when Link does his Down air.

I'm thinking taking him to Battlefield would be good, I really don't know but I think the platforms can stop his homing missile from hitting. And doing Down air auto cancel fake outs don't work to well.

I think it's in a small advantage to Sonic here. 55:45 in his favor.

I'll add more in this matchup. Possibly frame data stuff, and I'll upload a tourney match against a Sonic.

 

[Rizen]

Nair is great. Sonic's bad reach on spin attacks will either loose to or trade hits with Nair's 21 frames of continuous attack that start on frame 6 (same as jab) and landing cancel. Sonic's spins look the same and are hard to time a defense against, he's also fast enough to blur through the gaps in link's attacks. If Link's in the air, Nair is a great answer to spins.

Link can grab opponents out of the air if he connects where the flash is on his hand. (Shown as the hit bubble on Link’s hand):

If Link grabs Snake, Game and Watch or Sonic during or after their up‘B’ before the land and holds without pummeling or throwing them until they break free, they will not be able to jump until they land. Snake can C4 himself to recover and G&W can sweetspot the edge after his up'B', but Sonic will not be able to jump or use special attacks and fall to his doom. This requires good timing and close anti-air grab spacing. Edgehog afterwords.

Stage CP: Brinstar because Sonic's approaches are limited by the terrain, Link can survive much longer, and acid helps stop gimps.

If not Brinstar, PS1 can limit Sonic with it's terrain and Link has better stage control.
Or...
Halberd and FD let Link spam like crazy while not being backed against the edge.

 

[da K.I.D.]

trust me. you dont want to go fd

 

[Anonano]

I'm way less worried about homing attack than about fifty other things. If he's using homing attack to fight you, he's either toying with you or just a bad player.

I play against X, so I'm a little biased about this matchup.

FD is a terrible stage for Link against Sonic, ban it. Just btw.

Arrow cancelling is going to be used a lot in this matchup just to put a quick wrench in Sonic's assault.

Sonic has total space and zone control in this matchup. He goes under zair, arrows and boomerang can only occasionally mess up his ground mindgames, and projectiles are a joke. Nair tends not to have enough range compared to Sonic's aerials when you're knocked into the air and are defending against him. Honestly I think bair replaces zair and nair in this matchup, you're going to have way better chances of fighting him if you use the SH bair reverse AC technique to play defensively. Even if Sonic manages to knock you up, bair has better range than every single one of Sonic's aerials except his own bair.
Sonic's uair outranges our dair I believe. It's a pain of a move, and used in conjunction with UpB it makes a frightening juggle finisher. FF airdodge is probably Link's only good response to getting knocked up high, which just shows Sonic's juggling dominance in this MU.

Boomerang's wind effect could be useful in this matchup. Throw it behind you while sonic is charging up his spin moves, then start playing the SH bair style, and then just dodge the returning boomerang. It could very likely save you from his juggling, and unfortunately, doing something as desperate as that may just be better than any other response Link has to being juggled. At least Sonic's air maneuverability is terrible. A little push from the wind effectively negates anything Sonic can do until he gets back to the ground.

Link's smashes, when unleashed, will kick Sonic's butt though. Sonic is fairly light, so even at low percentages desperately throwing around smashes can knock him far enough away to reset spacing. Jab is fast, but I think it clashes or is outprioritized by Sonic's spin moves on the ground, so I wouldn't expect to use this much except as a "get off me" move. Utilt and usmash are great for dealing with an airborne Sonic, although if he expects it and airdodges then you'll get punished with a grab, fsmash, or something else. Mix it up with grabs and smashes.
If Sonic is forced to UpB off the edge, then Link has several options to deal with him. He can do the grab technique, although it's quite difficult for Link to place it correctly to get the grab. Uair will be scary for Sonic; it outlasts any airdodge and has underrated killing strength. It will always be fresh as well.

Homing attack may be used to mix things up, but bair, fair, and dair all outspace it while in the air and utilt will easily outrange it. Don't expect to see this much.

BF is a bad stage due to the small horizontal range onstage and low ceiling. You WILL get uair KOed at least once a match on this stage. FD is bad because of way too much flat, horizontal space. Mix up the stages, such as using YI with it's uneven terrain. If you grab Sonic, but he lands on the ghost, you can dair KO him. Brinstar has a fairly high ceiling with uneven ground that even stops Sonic in some places, forcing him to take to the air. The sides are close, giving easy horizontal KOs to Link. Halberd favors Sonic, as Sonic can camp the middle, and if you get on the sides you have no options to deal with him. The ceiling is *just* high enough for him to easily uair KO you as you try to momentum cancel.

60:40 Sonic.

 

[Lawz.]

Hitting Sonic is so hard since he's so fast. Even with projectiles it's still a pain.

I wonder what Link can do against his Spin attacks. Like what moves would clank with it and stuff.

I know that following Link up into the air and trying to kill off the top with Sonic's Up B then Up air can be dangerous when Link does his Down air.

I'm thinking taking him to Battlefield would be good, I really don't know but I think the platforms can stop his homing missile from hitting. And doing Down air auto cancel fake outs don't work to well.

I think it's in a small advantage to Sonic here. 55:45 in his favor.

I'll add more in this matchup. Possibly frame data stuff, and I'll upload a tourney match against a Sonic.

If Sonic is spin dashing you can shield and as he's moving on the shield angle it with the direction he's moving so you don't get poked and try to punish OoS. Good Sonics won't use homing attack because it's completely *** in so many ways.

Also Ano, Sonic isn't really that light, I'm pretty sure he's in the middle class weight and fair is a good momentum cancel for him.

 

[Anonano]

Read "fairly" light.
He is on the lighter side of middle class. And besides, anything considered middle class is light for Link. He'll die about 20% (or one hit) later.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonics up air beats almost every down air in the game, but for some of them like link's, the spacing has to be incredibly precise to the point where personally, I wouldnt attempt it. so if sonic is coming up from under you, go ahead and go for the dair, because the odds between a ~20% sex kick and a 9/6% kick with like 3 frames of good range is probably heavily in your favor.

sonic is pretty much the exact same weight as mario with a great momentum cancel in either of his spindashes.

also, side b becomes invincible on YI, so you want to know that ahead of time before you pick that stage.

quick drawn arrows will probably be a saving grace for link here, seeing as otherwise, sonic would just get inside of him too fast. link is probably aiming to keep sonic at mid range, where his zair/jab/f smash will hit sonic, but sonic cant hit him.

try to use moves with as little commitment as possible. the less you give sonic to punish, the less he can damage you. when you give sonic an opening its easy to take advantage of, but when sonic has to make his own way in, it gets harder, since link has more priority and range than him.

sonic is going to want to get you offstage, since as we all know, links recovery is bad. back throw sends at a really high angle so we usually wont do that, as it doesnt benefit us that much, we will probably use f tilt, down throw or back air to get you offstage, at which point we have something like 100 different options to prevent you from coming back.

I dont think links up b protects him from when sonic drops a spring on his head, and since thats the safest way to attempt a gimp from our end thats probably going to be the way we attempt to gimp you most in this matchup, followed by back air, which we can use to kick you through your rangs, should you try to use that to defend yourselves on the way down.

 

[-Axis-]

Sonic is one spot above Mario in weight, and down-b is a great momentum canceller, so he's not really light in any sense of the word.

Just a few of the most basic things you should know about Sonic:
-He never has to commit to a spin. He can shield cancel, jump, spring, or grab out of his aerial down b. However, once he starts rolling, he's limited to just jumping.
-Grabbing him out of his spring will probably never work. We can just airdodge.
-Dont use zair too much. It's too easy for us to run underneath it and punish.
-Dont rely too much on projectiles either.

Link is going to have to play an incredibly difficult game of cat-and-mouse to win this one.

 

[Lawz.]

Sonic is one spot above Mario in weight, and down-b is a great momentum canceller, so he's not really light in any sense of the word.

Just a few of the most basic things you should know about Sonic:
-He never has to commit to a spin. He can shield cancel, jump, spring, or grab out of his aerial down b. However, once he starts rolling, he's limited to just jumping.
-Grabbing him out of his spring will probably never work. We can just airdodge.
-Dont use zair too much. It's too easy for us to run underneath it and punish.
-Dont rely too much on projectiles either.

Link is going to have to play an incredibly difficult game of cat-and-mouse to win this one.

When you say don't rely too much on zair/projectiles that's ridiculous. Arrows stop Sonic whenever he's running toward Link or spin dashing to Link. Bombs are the best of Link's projectiles against Sonic because if Sonic gets hit he starts to lose momentum of the match, if he shields then the bomb will either explode or bounce which then gives Link time to pull out another. Bombs help to prevent Sonic from gaining momentum in the match-up which plays a huge part here. If one of the characters gets the momentum of the match then chances are they'll win. Zair outranges everything Sonic has and if spaced to the tip (which it should be) Sonic can still have a difficult time to punish it because it has no ending lag.

Link has more range, can kill faster, can camp Sonic to an extent, and does have priority that either rivals or is better than Sonic's.

Sonic has the speed to get through projectiles much faster than any other character, his grab game puts Link in a very bad position, once Sonic is inside he can deal a good amount of damage, and can easily gimp Link by just hitting him with the spring.

I think this match-up is 55:45 Sonic's favor or 60:40 at the worst.

 

[Rizen]

also, side b becomes invincible on YI, so you want to know that ahead of time before you pick that stage.

What do you mean?

-Grabbing him out of his spring will probably never work. We can just airdodge.

True, but it's good to know for stages like Frigate.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

If we do SideB on a slant it's invincible for the duration. Sonic has invincibility frames at the height of his sideb hop. A slant KEEPS us in that state for the duration.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't rely on using Dthrow to get Link offstage unless the momentum sends Link right off stage, since that throw is tech-able.

I've played with Sonic a lot for nostalgia of my past times playing Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and the fact he's just fun to play.

Sonic need to work around Link's projectiles, even if FD helps with this giving Sonic all of that open space is a big no-no. Limiting his space is much more important, that having camp room. Limiting his space is more important since he has numerous options from his spin dash and baiting game.

From what I have counted Sonic has, 7?, options to hit our shield and get away without Link being able to do jack about it. Link need to out prioritize his approaches with his own moves. Sword beats quills, so do bombs and arrows which are key. If Sonic starts a spindash, throwing something at him is the first and best option to either hit him or stop his approach.

Don't throw out any basic A moves wildly, Sonic will pick these off and punish them because of his speed, fastest running speed in the game and all. This comes at a price, he's light and lacks some good kill power, except hypno smashes. Note he does a a good momentum cancel so he very well can stay alive, Link is still going to outlive and kill earlier in the end.

Sonics' recovery is great, Link's is terrible and Sonic can take advantage of this. Bair gimps, springs of Link goes low, Fair, Sonic has some nasty tricks to do to Link.

In the end I feel like Sonic has the advantage, while Link has range, camping and longer livability. Sonic has better punishes, lots of options, better recovery, and a good gimp game. Sonics traits work out better, in the end I think this is, 55:45, 40:60 Sonic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what are some things to watch out for when playing against link? all i know of is the full hop bomb down throw footstool.

for sonic, the two ways that we mainly get kills, are running behind you when you are shielding and than f smashing, since most people like to come out of shield at that point. and spindash to bair, it starts to combo around 100 or so and will probably kill link around 150. but even at the lower non kill %s it will send him pretty far offstage, which is very good for us

 

[Scabe]

Yeah Link above you with a bomb is dangerous, he's in a good position to do bomb down throw combos.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Tech the ground if you get hit by boomerang and your close to Link. He can start a jab lock if you hit the ground and don't tech it.

If he hits you with an arrow from this it forces a stand up animation so if Link times a move right he can land a free kill move.

If Link is above you and you feel like chasing him with spring to uair for an early kill, DON'T, I've killed a couple of charaters at early % that tried to get greedy for an early kill with Dair.

Be aware of Link jab mix-ups, his jabs can lead into a could of things.
Jab>jab>Dsmash
Jab>jab>Grab
Jab>jab>crouch>jab>jab>something
Jab>jab>Utilt

He can cancel his jabs into a lot of things.

 

[Rizen]

what are some things to watch out for when playing against link? all i know of is the full hop bomb down throw footstool.

Zair landing cancels to whatever and we can hit little characters like Olimar with it. We can Zair low with the first hit close up or the last hit at the tip and there's no attack gaps for sonic to run through. It's hard to time.
Some characters we can Zair first hit and Fsmash or Dsmash.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

Ok, let's see what I got...

Sonic is a really fast character with decent priority and a repetitive moveset. He lacks KOing power, though, allowing Link to be able to survive to rediculously high percents (180% +).

Sonic has no projectiles, and Link has three. However, utilizing the projectiles appropriately against him is really difficult, given how Sonic can close the distance between you and him really quickly, and/or avoid them quite easily. Arrows take too long to charge, and the Gale Boomerang has too much startup lag to be effective enough against Sonic, however, Bombs, given their range and blast radius, are extremely effective. Defensively, they can stop Sonic mid-charge, opening up the opportunity to combo with Fsmash, Utilt, or the like; offensively, they can be used to do wicked combos in the air, combos that Sonic tends to be vulnerable to. I'd say you need to have a bomb out at all times to successfully win this MU.

I'd say that, given his bombs and other, versitile projectiles, Link's airgame is slightly better than Sonic's. If you can keep Sonic in the air then you can pull off all kinds of combos on him. Add in Zair, and you've got plenty of options at your disposal to open up a can of kick butt.

Keeping distance with Sonic is difficult, given his outrageous speed, but you can compensate by using Zair followed up by short-hopped aerials, for the most part. Your relentless attacking will keep him from moving around too much.

Sonic, unfortunately, can't be edgehogged because of the nature of his recovery.


And that's all I got. I'd put it at 40:60 Sonic, or 45:55 Sonic.

 

[Rizen]

^
Bombs are fast if Link is already holding one; boomerang is slightly faster than pulling and throwing a bomb.

Bombs always launch up so a bomb>Fsmash combo is very unlikely. Aerials combo if Link's already above the opponent when they are bombed.

Zair has a lot of ending lag so we cancel it by landing and probably will only have time for a quick ground attack; it doesn't combo into aerials.

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

^
Bombs are fast if Link is already holding one; boomerang is slightly faster than pulling and throwing a bomb.

You're right on that.

Still, have a bomb out at all times.

Bombs always launch up so a bomb>Fsmash combo is very unlikely.

Perhaps, but I've been able to pull it off. The timing's a bit awkward, but still possible.

But, you're probably right, a Usmash or Utilt are much more viable options, if you're on the ground.

Zair has a lot of ending lag so we cancel it by landing and probably will only have time for a quick ground attack; it doesn't combo into aerials.

Ah, I mean, after landing, you can follow through with a short-hopped Fair, or the like. Maybe 'combo' wasn't the best word, as it's more like a follow-up attack.

 

[Purple]

Couple of questions

Will sonic's grab game get in the way of link?

Can link overpower sonic's speed?

Will Sonic's gimp game highly affect link?

i agree with a 60:40 sonic from the information i've seen here.

 

[Rizen]

Couple of questions

Will sonic's grab game get in the way of link?

Can link overpower sonic's speed?

Will Sonic's gimp game highly affect link?

i agree with a 60:40 sonic from the information i've seen here.

Everyone's grab and gimp games are highly effective vs Link. If Link connects he can over power Sonic.

 

[Purple]

Well we need questions like those, sonic can be played by all grabs and speed, therefore we can say that this will **** up link's game horribly

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think his grab game is a huge concern. While it should be noted as an option he can do it's not something to be avoided like a plague.

Remember to tech his Dthrow.

Uthrow doesn't matter too much, if he tries to chase your with spring I usually pick this up and air dodge or try to dair for an early kill.

His Fthrow can set-up into moves, but if you DI it right you shouldn't but you in a terrible situation.

His Bthrow is the main worry, it sends people at a more horizontal angel and moves them further in that direction.

It's good he can punish so much of Link's moves with a grab with his speed, but it this is why I recommend not wildly throwing moves out.

-

Link can beat Sonic in priority and kill power, but don't underestimate speed, it's a very good trait Sonic has even more so being the fastest character in the game.

-

I would worry about his gimp game, spring if Link recovers low is a problem. Bair will gimp Link if your not careful. Fair won't work on Link, or rather try and SDI out before the last hit comes out it's not easy but it will save you. Even if it does it, you can DI it right to avoid being gimped, unless Sonic does it to you when your far from the stage.

 

[Metro Knight]

I dunno if this is 60:40, like if I had to compare it to a match, maybe it'd be more like playing a good GnW player. I think you'd eventually get use to how Sonic plays and after i dunno 50 matches, it will be a lot easier. That is how GnW was for me. A lot of the other 60:40 match-ups seem harder than this one, so I would have to say 55:45.


Final Destination is a *****, you just stand in the center of the stage and watch Sonic give you a complete head ache. I remember beating a lot of sonics on FD, but it is always this grueling 7 minute long match.

You have to be really patient versus Sonic, and if you move around, he is going to get the best of you. For me, just acting like a Tower works better than trying to maneuver at all, Sonic will approach you, so just go with that.

His aerials are weird, he can shimmy around your Dair and his uair is weird, either it sucks you in a little bit or has some sort of disjointed hitbox.

the fsmash is so bad, but since it is kind of slow, it ends up owning your spotdodge. I really hate it when I get hit by that move. Like, it is really easy to deal with, but since Sonic is just so frustrating to play against, not so b/c I am dieing, just b/c I am just standing there waiting for him to **** up, that I end up forgetting what to do in the time period of 7 minutes.

But yea, I think we need Lawz or something hardcore to write one of these match-ups. My friends play a pretty mediocre Sonic, the only person in Mississippi that I have seen with a good Sonic is The Poser, and he is going to bust out MK way before he busts out Sonic. His Sonic is good though, but he is only going to play him in friendlies or if he is at the front of a tourney.

 

[Lawz.]

I don't think his grab game is a huge concern. While it should be noted as an option he can do it's not something to be avoided like a plague.

Remember to tech his Dthrow.

Uthrow doesn't matter too much, if he tries to chase your with spring I usually pick this up and air dodge or try to dair for an early kill.

His Fthrow can set-up into moves, but if you DI it right you shouldn't but you in a terrible situation.

His Bthrow is the main worry, it sends people at a more horizontal angel and moves them further in that direction.

It's good he can punish so much of Link's moves with a grab with his speed, but it this is why I recommend not wildly throwing moves out.

-

Link can beat Sonic in priority and kill power, but don't underestimate speed, it's a very good trait Sonic has even more so being the fastest character in the game.

-

I would worry about his gimp game, spring if Link recovers low is a problem. Bair will gimp Link if your not careful. Fair won't work on Link, or rather try and SDI out before the last hit comes out it's not easy but it will save you. Even if it does it, you can DI it right to avoid being gimped, unless Sonic does it to you when your far from the stage.

Sonic's grab game is a big part of his playstyle so yes it should be a huge concern when playing against him.

Teching his dthrow helps until the Sonic starts switching up HIS style that can punish that tech. So yes it's good to know how to tech it but it won't save you every single time. Uthrow is better when you're at low percents because Sonic has the ability to juggle Link easily or read your airdodge with another grab.

Link has the priority and power while Sonic has the speed and the ability to gimp Link easily.

 

[Purple]

In a game that's based more off of hits in succesion, and generally reading your opponent. Sonic will easily have the advantage here. It's extremely hard for link to turtle (which is basically the playstyle most links will have to deal with) against a character that can easily use the entire stage to their advantage.

I agree with laws that teching can help rack more damage, but teching is generally better since most don't expect it and react a bit slower to it then someoine sitting on the ground. Perhaps we could get our jabs out in time to react.

 

[da K.I.D.]

every sonic has played against somebody that techs their down throw, its not a big deal, for the most part it doesnt give frame advantage to either player. and just puts the characters at neutral right next to each other, and seeing that links fastest move is jab at frame seven. this situation seems like it would be in sonics favor since his tilts and his grab are frame 6 and his jab is frame 3. and even normally, sonic being that close to link seem like an undesirable position for link.

that tech will only throw off sonic one time, and your best using like a charged skra or something to scare sonic into shielding and coming out of shielding. but other than that, its better to DI up and nair or something before you hit the ground.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Looks like I stand corrected on the situation.

Also Link's jab comes out frame 6, but that doesn't help much against Sonic either way speed wise.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Something that I thought of since I know red ryu as a luc player, and this is something that works really well on him.

Should sonic happen to grab link at the edge. How effective is an air release at the ledge against link?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

An air release? Not sure.

Based on how his air release works I would guess it would send Link far enough out that a gimp is possible.

But that's mostly a guess since that hasn't happened to me before.

 

[Anonano]

If you just so happen to grab him that close to the ledge, you're probably playing off of luck and not any measurable skill. AKA you should have freaking killed him already using pretty much ANYTHING else.

In any case, it would be highly effective. Drop off the ledge and fair, or wait for us to hop and bair us; both would be enough to screw us over at any percentage above 60%.

 

[Deva]

full hop nair works pretty well in this matchup. . .actually just nair in general, and jabs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

crap, I cant think of a way to not make this sound combative...

how do you know? there arent any sonics anywhere near you...

at least, thats what praxis tells me.