Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think Jiggs has an advantage on paper, but I haven't played this MU, like ever.

I think I played it once in a low tier tournament where I rolled onto the stage as a mix-up but the jiggs predicted and RESTED ME!

I don't think I've ever fought a Jigglypuff main, a person who uses Jigglypuff seriously. Mostly it's just people who play her for fun but really don't know how to play her.

So I can talk about what each character can do, but really I think this is one of the match-ups I have literally close to zero experience.

 

[pulse131]

ah, my most hated character. always since the original ssb and melee, jiggs has been my least used, even in the records or whatever. i hate that little puff crap so much, and i havent the faintest idea in das world why she was one-ever created, and two-ever kept on the smash sceen.

ANNNNNNYYYYYYYYYWAAAAYY, my best friend uses her just to annoy me i think, (i.e., when i say best friend, i dont mean good brawler, keep that in mind) and uh, was bullcrap in melee, and kinda sucks now. in my opinion worse then Link even if she is slightly highest on the tier list. roll out can still be deadly, although most of the time its easy to avoid. rest isnt nearly as good, and is harder to hit with. watch out for footstool and bair when recovering, use up b instead of tether when she gets close. pound (forward b) has hella priority, but sum punishable lag if it misses completely(upsmash anyone?), and uh, thats pretty much it. she sucks. keep midrange and you'll pwn. just stay away from the edge 80% of the time and you wont die. dont fall asleep and you'll stay awake. dont die and you'll win.

she was an overrated pushover in melee, and is even werse now. consistently kick her mother luvin ***, making the user not want to use her anymore, so you wont ever have to play her again.

P.S. sry brenton ;p
o ya dair kills super easy when fresh, like, 60% O.o

 

[Jigglymaster]

ah, my most hated character. always since the original ssb and melee, jiggs has been my least used, even in the records or whatever. i hate that little puff crap so much, and i havent the faintest idea in das world why she was one-ever created, and two-ever kept on the smash sceen.

ANNNNNNYYYYYYYYYWAAAAYY, my best friend uses her just to annoy me i think, (i.e., when i say best friend, i dont mean good brawler, keep that in mind) and uh, was bullcrap in melee, and kinda sucks now. in my opinion worse then Link even if she is slightly highest on the tier list. roll out can still be deadly, although most of the time its easy to avoid. rest isnt nearly as good, and is harder to hit with. watch out for footstool and bair when recovering, use up b instead of tether when she gets close. pound (forward b) has hella priority, but sum punishable lag if it misses completely(upsmash anyone?), and uh, thats pretty much it. she sucks. keep midrange and you'll pwn. just stay away from the edge 80% of the time and you wont die. dont fall asleep and you'll stay awake. dont die and you'll win.

she was an overrated pushover in melee, and is even werse now. consistently kick her mother luvin ***, making the user not want to use her anymore, so you wont ever have to play her again.

P.S. sry brenton ;p
o ya dair kills super easy when fresh, like, 60% O.o

I'm just gonna say this quick but you really don't know much about puff lol. Jigglypuff's nair and f air destroy link off stage and in the air, if you go off the stage you are dead, its simple as that. Link is slower than Jigglypuff both on the ground and in the air and he can't keep away from jigglypuff forever. All jigglypuff has to do is run up to you and shield, what can link do, nothing. Your ****ed if you try to grab and even if you do it won't punish jigglypuff much at all, and if you try to attack jigglypuff with anything else when shes shielding she'll counter it with a f air to the face.

 

[ndayday]

What are set-ups for Rest that Jiggly has? Also, what about jab lock? I'm pretty sure she has one, so how is it against Link? Or maybe it's just pointless compared to her aerial game? And what moves out of her ground game should be we be watching out for? (I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that bad compared to all the things she can **** us with while in the air, but still)

Dang, question combo.

 

[Jigglymaster]

What are set-ups for Rest that Jiggly has? Also, what about jab lock? I'm pretty sure she has one, so how is it against Link? Or maybe it's just pointless compared to her aerial game? And what moves out of her ground game should be we be watching out for? (I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that bad compared to all the things she can **** us with while in the air, but still)

Dang, question combo.

Jigglypuff's grab range is surprisingly long, her dash grab she stumbles faster than her running speed. Shes got DACUS which can punish any of link's missed u tilts. Jigglypuff can also do a reverse grab which has even longer than a regular grab. NOt to mention pound the ground is also dangerous but the most risky of the bunch. Jab lock should hardly ever be a problem because its so rare. As for rest combos theres only drill to rest.

 

[Rizen]

Jig must approach link. This is a defensive match.
SH air attacks and range to get her off balance and counter. Jig likes to SH attacks but no character can shield in the air. (moving) SH Fair/Nair/Bair/Zair to keep her out of your bubble. Replace most of Link's shield game with SH slight retreats and a moving camp. DO NOT CAMP IN PLACE. Arrows and Spin attack (last ditch) stop her rollout. Dair kills air dodges. SH Fair cuts above and in front of Link; SH Fair>fast fall>Utilt (or other options) spaces better than an unsure Utilt. Bombs thrown up and angled 'rang throws mess slow-falling jig in the air.
Beware, her reach and speed are deceptive. Jig looks slow but she blitzes. Jig also invented the 'wall of pain' so stay low and away from edges. Her 'Rest' has top priority and happens on frame 1 (I think); if she connects with it, even if Link Dairs, Link will be the biggest looser. Avoid laggy moves like Usmash.

 

[pulse131]

still dont like her...

 

[Mike B]

If people had the heart to be metro-sexual, Jiggly would be much less hated. She's not going to kill you.

 

[Rizen]

Please forgive this shameless promotion for my new Link guide:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258121

 

[Veril]

This matchup is really annoying for both characters, but Jiggs ***** overall. Try to get Final D, it evens things up quite a bit. As it stands I would never take Link to Final D with Jiggs, and in fact generally ban the stage (since Corneria is usually banned already).

Link cannot survive if he ever goes offstage. Jigglypuff will gimp him and he will die, regardless of the %. F,n and dair shut down all of his options for recovering. Basically Link needs to spam projectiles, maintain perfect aerial spacing and keep Jigglypuff from closing. If she does, GG. Also, Jiggs can time out matches really well. If I get the lead (though I don't play vBrawl anymore) you can expect the rest of the match to be extremely frustrating.

Super campy Jiggs > Link if she ever gets the lead.

 

[pulse131]

If people had the heart to be metro-sexual, Jiggly would be much less hated. She's not going to kill you.

that 4 sure.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well I owe this thread my input.

Link vs Jigglypuff.

She shouldn't be taken lightly at all, she has trouble with her range, kill power, and % she dies at. The things she uses to makes up for it is her air game, mobility, and gimp potential. Jigglypuff should be aggressive with her gimping, seriously I've made it back to the stage sometimes in instances I had no right to make it back to the stage. Also Jigg's should make sure rest kills, I've lived some rest's that were used too early, I DI's and momentum canceled to save myself, fastfalled and killed Jigglypuff with a Dsmash.

Now as for this MU, Link is going to kill Jigg's really early when he does. She's the lightest character in the game, Link has good KO power, that isn't a good mix for her.

Before someone says it drillresting doesn't work if you DI left or right while staying very close to the ground and shield immediately, You'll power shield her Rest and be able to do whatever you feel like doing afterwords. She can chase you while using Dair, but it's still risky.

Link can stay on stage against Jigglypuff pretty well. When he gets sent offstage, well he'll have to pray Jigglypuff is merciful if he was sent out to far. While on stage camp her like no tomorrow, arrows if she moves low, otherwise boomerang and bombs will be more effective against her.

If she's trying to zone in the air, Utilt can cover Link, you could Zair her if she's trying to do it rather low. SHFair covers more range than anything she has in the air. Also her ground game outside of grab and pound is really bad, I'm pretty sure Link beats her on the ground easily.

Stages, Norfair limits gimping so much yeah it helps her in the air, but Link killing early and more camp room is way better than most other stages. Halberd isn't bad with a low ceiling, it has less ledge room but other than that it's not a bad stage. Basically any stage that can limit her air approaches, mitigate the offstage parts, and help Link kill earlier.

I think this is 50:50 at the moment. I still haven't played this enough to get a good read on it.

 

[Rizen]

if Jig's shield breaks she'll die unless a solid platform's over her. The risk give Link more freedom to pressure Jig when her shield's weak. Remember to maintain good spacing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's funny when Jigg's dies from her shield breaking.

 

[pulse131]

back when i was using ganon i daired a jiggs whos sheeld broke, write back down to where she was. wish i had it recorded. twas vurry vurry funny

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If anyone wants to leave any last minute info before we move on feel free.

Ice Climbers, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Sonic.

Your choice.

 

[Rizen]

I don't see many Jigs. ICs next.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Now that Christmas is over.

Ice Climbers are a go go.

 

[Smoom77]

I'm not good at giving matchups help, but we can SoPo d-throw Link for 70%.

 

[Rizen]

Some people are absurdly good at IC's chaingrabs. Link's first priority is to constantly be holding a bomb. Backwards SH>throw bomb down (with 'C')>Ready a bomb renews this defense well. Because the limitations of holding a bomb, SH arrows, quickdraw, Zair, boomerang, and Bomb Fsmash are Link's main moves. Arrows/boomerang completely penetrate blizzards.

Getting grabbed by ICs who are together once without a bomb (or boomerang out)=Link gets KOed.
If they toss Link to and edge, they'll Fair spike him: Mash up'B' like crazy to cancel the spike. Ledge jumps are a good time to ready another bomb.

Their shield timing is (I want to say) 8 frames apart, so bomb-double Fsmash has a good chance of hitting one of them. If one is launched off stage the other will jump off stage to team up'B'/forward'B' and save him/her. Nair off stage or SH off stage Bair>Z tether recover>edge hog to prevent them up'B' recovering (most likely scenario). Edge hog if there's not enough time; the main one will survive but the partner will likely die. Arrows mess them up too.
Their teamed up forward B goes really high if the player taps 'B' quickly (like Luigi's tornado) but doesn't edge sweetspot and forces freefalling. Dair them or smash before they land.

A lone IC has better recovery than Link and is faster. Link out reaches and out-spams the IC easily. The IC is easy to Nair gimp too. +Link has the freedom to not constantly hold his bomb; space with jabs and aerial attacks. Don't rush in and loose your good spacing; the match is not over if one's alive.

If the main one is launched, the second can still hurt/KO Link, even if the main IC is flying in the background from a star KO. Keep the partner away then intercept/edgeguard the main one.

 

[CTX]

I wonder if Legan reads these anymore, as opposed to allisbrawl. If he does, I would love to hear some of his advice. He did take a game off of lain at NO KOAST. Very very impressive

 

[pulse131]

against IC. dont get grabbed. Ic's has no metagame . cp places with platforms. slice em up. dont grab, if you do, dont pummel or you will be punished.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well for this MU I literally have zero experience so anything I'll say later is just theory craft.

 

[GreyClover]

Well for this match-up you don't have many options. Spam/camp your balls off and never approach IC for you will be eating a grab=stock loss. The best way to handle the match is with bombs, and a lot of them. Always make sure you have a bomb in hand most of the match so that if you get caught into a chaingrab the bomb can save you a stock. Though don't let all you're bombs go to waste, throwing them stops desynched blizzard approaching and helps separating the ICs from each other. MES is correct, the IC shield frames have a difference of 8 frames so if IC shield one of them could be hit by the attack. Separating IC is important since they can't damage, combo, and recover as good if one IC is separated from the other. So if one of the IC is separated follow up with other moves to rack damage before the other comes back. Though if the other half of IC dies and it's not Popo then knock him off the stage with any move and then gimp. Chose stages that move and interupts IC's chaingrab like RC. Stages with platforms work too but be aware that pro IC players can still chaingrab you to death on platforms. I don't give a **** about match-up ratios but I can say it's in IC's favor but it's not a really bad match-up.

 

[pulse131]

the only decent IC i played i utterly mained just by doing what MES said. bomb always in hand, and dont be to afraid to decay you rkill moves cuz IC are not only lightweight but arent to hard to gimp. normal bomb drop off the edge works well by hitting one enemy after they recover. ill probably post more later

 

[Rizen]

Chose stages that move and interupts IC's chaingrab like RC. Stages with platforms work too but be aware that pro IC players can still chaingrab you to death on platforms.

Scrolling stages can allow ICs to throw Link into a death zone aka moving stage boundary. RC helps separate them but Brinstar should be your first counter pick. (Acid)
I can't stress enough how important it is to be constantly holding a bomb. Good IC players will grab and KO you quickly, Link is not a mobile character and grabs have highest move priority.

A side note: their intercepting game is good and the 2 ICs can extend edge hogging time. If you ledge stall ready a bomb, make sure Link will land on stage. From grabbing the edge, immediately edge jump> ready a bomb while Link's invincible. Or Zair to regain invincibility>edge jump>ready bomb. They will grab Link as he gets on stage if he's vulnerable.


Ready for the next character?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Another important note is the ability to drop a bomb and do an aerial to pick the item back up in the air.

So it is possible to do, Fair, Bair, Nair, Uair, and Dair while still holding a bomb.

Then there is Bomb smashing so Fsmash is possible.

I'm not entirely sure how well this works since I still haven't fought an IC as Link yet.

Well after today we're going to move on, Zero Suit Samus, Wario, Sonic, Diddy Kong

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Since no one really voted I'm just going to pick a MU.

Wario is a gogo.

 

[Scabe]

Wario? I played a Wario in a tourney match, who ended up winning the Tourney. Here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxwVLcjzzoA I'm still figuring out the matchup, I'll write more stuff, when I can.

I took him to Halberd, because I believed, if I stayed under the platform, then it would somehow help fight against Wario's air camping. I just did a few mistakes like, Up air-ing and landing on the platform.

I know that Wario's Up-air will beat Link's Dair. Don't try to shield grab his aerials such as his Dair, and Neutral air. You can shield grab and punish the rest of his ground moves though.

When Wario goes offstage, he'll recover high so throw bombs up to disrupt him.

His Up air is great for fakeouts. After an Up-air he can do things like Neutral air, a.nd Fsmash.

A useful thing is to jump out of shield and do Neutral air or back air if Wario's starting to get in your zone. Doing Neutral air might help against his airdodging.

Don't land in front of Wario, as his grab is like 6 frames, and he'll punish your landing lag. Try to either land behind him with an aerial or land away from him.

We can't really gay him with grab releases, unless your at the edge. Even then, Link doesn't have that many options.

When Wario gets you offstage, he'll probably gimp you like crazy with like Farts, and his Fsmash is really good for putting you in a bad position.

I'm not sure if Battlefield would be a good choice against Wario. I hear it's a good Wario stage though. I would aim for it to fight against his air camping. Final Destination would be good choice. Though I'm guessing Wario would probably live forever there with his insane DI and with all that space for Wario it might make it hard to hit him. As for counterpicks, Halberd went well for me. Just stay under platform! I hear Brinstar is a good level for Wario, you'll probably see tremendous amounts of Air camping there. If you were to ban something, I'd say ban Frigate Orpheon.

I think it's around 60:40 in Wario's advantage. Probably even more to Wario's advantage.

Oh and, I have IC's matchup experience. I can upload a vid of me playing one in a tourney match. I'll contribute more for the export.

 

[Scabe]

I just learnt something against Wario.

Grab release into D-air!

It's liek so OP. It'll make your tastebuds go ****ing hax. And I'm pretty sure it's guaranteed.

Edit: Okay it's not as good as I thought. The air release will only happen if Wario is button mashing out. And getting the timing for the Dair is alot harder than I thought it would be.

 

[Anaky]

Gawd i find that so hard to do, ecspecially with the person i play alot.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Scabe is correct, we can grab release Wario into a dair, but we can't force an air release without Wario being held above a ledge.

Well I've played Quik and Hunger around my area, never faced them in a tournament just in friendlies. Only time I ever beat Quik was in a friendly with Lucario and I think he was kind of side tracked during the game so he wasn't going all out, with Link closest I ever got was his last stock. Hunger, never played him, I want to but still haven't yet.

Well Wario really can gimp Link if he goes out to try it, seriously thanks to his aerial movement wario can go pretty far out if he wanted to gimp Link.

We all know about the waft, be very careful with low knockback moves, is he DI's right it can lead into a free waft for him.

His air game is much better than his ground game, disgusting air mobility plus near lagless aerials gives him a lot of tools to use. His ground game while not as ground shouldn't be ignored, his Fsmash has super armor and can get you if you don't pay attention. While his air moves are better he is going to have to land on the ground for a kill if he doesn't have a waft ready and your not getting gimped, Uair is an exception to this but Link should be on the ground for the most part anyways. If Wario is trying to juggle you try and get back on the ground and avoid being directly above him.

There is a kind of Wario that I don't think many actually face, the campy kind. I mean Wario that will get a good lead on you and then play defensive as hell. With Wario's air momentum you have to approach him. Projectiles help but his air dodge with his air speed makes it really hard to catch him if he gets a lead. From what I've seen Quik and Hunger don't play this campy, DMG is a Wario that does. I've seen a lot of videos of him playing keep away, it's a pain in the rear to actually catch him.

The less platforms available the better. This is why Battlefield is a bad stage against Wario, he has so much air room to move around and play safe doing poke and prods, and if he can get a lead can play keep away if need be.

Norfair is a definite no go, there are so many platforms for him to abuse with the open space to go wherever he wants, lava can restrict him but trying to catch him is still hard. Brinstar is just as bad.

Every Wario I've played bans FD, it's good considering it is his worst stage, if they don't for whatever reason jump on this stage in an instant.

Another problem is the stage list, Wario has a lot of fun places he can take you, Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, Lylat, it can go on for a bit.

Remember less platforms is better, so FD and Smashville are the better choices. Yoshi's Island, and halberd aren't bad choices either considering neither is a terrible stage for Link and it doesn't give Wario the run room he could want.

Link should stay ground and keep projectiles going, you need to try and trap him with a projectile and/or Zair. Utilt is a good GTFO me move for Link if he tries an air approach but keep those bombs, arrows, and boomerang going. You need to keep pressure going against him. Jab should help you space against his bite anfd other moves, but for the most part try and force an opening and go for it. If Wario is getting airdodge happy ypu can try to go for an Uair, because the hitbox stays out for a while and try to follow his dodge pattern, but be careful he could try and bait this to go for a waft.

All in all I think Wario has an advantage anywhere from 60:40-65:35. Link can camp and use his sword range to fight Wario, but Wario can gimp Link, doesn't have too much trouble approaching and while he plays hit and run it's a pain to catch him.

 

[Rizen]

Nair has a good chance of trading hits in the air. Link will get the worse end of the deal but he won't get juggled. Fast fall>air dodge>Utilt stops W's SH juggling attempts.
At a close distance (to close to zair) you can mimic his jump movements while spacing Bairs, which have hit bubbles for much longer than Fair and the same reach. Be ready for him to land and grab/smash. You can space him for a short time until he corners Link against a ledge. From the edge jump>immediate air dodge. ledge stall Fairs will be Fsmashed. Grabs have priority over armor frames in W's Fsmash.

 

[Drift108]

you told some people to come from wario threads to come and disguise here or u dont need help?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I sent an invitation over there but so far no one has come.

 

[Scabe]

I don't think they have matchup experience against Link. Who would?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I asked DMG what he thought, he said,

60:40 to 65:35 Wario's favor.

His strong point really isn't about killing earlier than usual, or having a pretty good edgeguard game, but that he has so many safe moves against Link. He has no reliable way to punish even sloppy attacks on his shield.

I have to agree with him on this.

If anyone has anything to add, please do so.

If not make your decision.

Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Dark Link,

 

[Scabe]

Dark Link?

Anyways I like the choice of characters, since I play against those all the time. I think a good idea is to start looking at frame data against the two characters to see what Link can do against certain moves that you're expected to see against the characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dark Link?

aka the ditto people don't like.

Most people hate dittos if MK isn't involved.

as for choice of character it can be anyone really. it's just a simple pick and choose of what people want to go over that we already haven't done yet.

 

[Scabe]

Really? I find MK dittos to be incredibly boring.