MetaKnightmare900
Smash Rookie
where is teh rest of teh list new thread plz =/...jk lol
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Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
...zair...
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
do that consistently why don't ya?
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
whiplash, ialso called tether save, fairly easy to do vs zeldas dsmash actually at lower percentages(about 0%-110%), it doesnt make you fly that fast.
And some of you are forgetting how links metagame looks, DAC used as mothing but combofinisher? come on, which link main did that? none of you have mentioned the BAL and rang techchasing. And none of you really seems to know how a link should spam.
*goes back to Hyrule for another few months*
your question presupposes that i do not
how presupposing -_O
-dMT-
Smash Lord
It's not that Link's ATs are being ignored. Just, they don;t serve much of a purpose as to give an advantage in the matchup. Forget Zelda's dsmash btw. Even if you guys have this... whiplash, It won't do any good versus Sheik and that's most what you're gonna see from a Z/S player. Unless the player feels really bad about their sheik skills, they're just gonna damage you to 60% or more easy after a single mistake from a Link and then gimp.
Link won't be able to out-camp Sheik.
3 projectiles would have beaten one.... perhaps.. but Link's projectiles are all mid range, as opposed to Sheik's long range needles. Only projectile Link has that can get Sheik of Sheik stays out of bomb throw range for Link, is his arrow... and only when charged. Boomerang is easy to shield, its not fast enough. Needles however will be rather quick. I've had Link's camp me. hell same Link's even beat me occasionally, I don't base my info off of random scrubs. They will attest that they cannot out-camp a camping Sheik.
I listed earlier what Sheik has on Link. All of it basically. Alongside that I listed the matchup ratio I saw fit.
So tell me Link mains; What does Link have against Sheik that can sway the matchup?
Link won't be able to out-camp Sheik.
3 projectiles would have beaten one.... perhaps.. but Link's projectiles are all mid range, as opposed to Sheik's long range needles. Only projectile Link has that can get Sheik of Sheik stays out of bomb throw range for Link, is his arrow... and only when charged. Boomerang is easy to shield, its not fast enough. Needles however will be rather quick. I've had Link's camp me. hell same Link's even beat me occasionally, I don't base my info off of random scrubs. They will attest that they cannot out-camp a camping Sheik.
I listed earlier what Sheik has on Link. All of it basically. Alongside that I listed the matchup ratio I saw fit.
So tell me Link mains; What does Link have against Sheik that can sway the matchup?
#HBC | Red Ryu
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I agree with dMT MaNgA about the Sheik/Zelda mains. There is no reason why they shouldn't go all Sheik unless they love Zelda so much more. Zelda is slightly her advantage or near even, Sheik is no way in hell anywhere close to even. She's as bad as Fox for very simular reasons.
Long range Link camping is bad, mid range camping is correct. If he tries to camp long range Sheik will out camp him, at mid range and on stages with platforms I disagree. Link projectiles have more versatility to adapt to his camping needs while moving around. Sheik is more limited in her's and needs to have a needle storm charged to really make her camping more threatening, 18% really hurts.
Sheik camping is the last thing on my worry list in this MU, the Ftilt lock and the gimping are more troublesome.
I need to really post my perspective on this MU soon, I've played Sheik/Zelda before, but I'm really too busy getting ready for a tournament. :/
Long range Link camping is bad, mid range camping is correct. If he tries to camp long range Sheik will out camp him, at mid range and on stages with platforms I disagree. Link projectiles have more versatility to adapt to his camping needs while moving around. Sheik is more limited in her's and needs to have a needle storm charged to really make her camping more threatening, 18% really hurts.
Sheik camping is the last thing on my worry list in this MU, the Ftilt lock and the gimping are more troublesome.
I need to really post my perspective on this MU soon, I've played Sheik/Zelda before, but I'm really too busy getting ready for a tournament. :/
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Thank you Red Ryu. I was worried I wasn't going to get a sensible response. I agree that link definitely outcamps at mid range. No doubt there. The versatility alone, as you said, will go a long way. Just wanted to point out that Sheik CAN also camp when the going gets rough in this MU, by going long range. Although, as you pointed out, Sheik will almost never need to. Ftilt lock, Swan Combo, gimp. Those 3, the bread and butter. Don't forget that once Sheik makes it an in-fight, her frame 2 jabs that combo into a grab or even ftilt will prevent you from even moving. Shield pressure can really be one of her strong points.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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My input on Zelda, I'll have Sheik up tonight.
Link vs Zelda
This is the easier of the duo. Your only going to see her appear if the opponent is solo Zelda or has a love for killing with her. If your playing to use whoever has the better advantage as a Sheik Zelda main, don't. She does have some tools to gimp Link and a godly defensive game, but Sheik's aggro is so much better in ta Sheik he long run against Link. I've fought against some Sheik and Zelda mains and on one occasion forced them to switch back to Sheik because I did 80% while they couldn't land a kill move on me.
Zelda has a godly defensive game, don't run into it blindly. You can still camp her even though she has a reflector, Boomerang will have some trouble hitting her but if that gets reflected and your not in the air really close to the ledge it shouldn't be a problem, you can time arrows to hit her in the ending lag, bombs can hit her even if she reflect if you aim at the ground in front of her near her feet.
If your worried about Din's camping you, it shouldn't be a problem. Pay attention to her hand when she's doing it, when she flickers it is when you should air dodge, spot dodge or shield.
Some people mention DI as a way to avoid getting killed by her, well that's true that it is possible to DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash if your on the sides of her, it's going to be harder if you are in the center of her multi hitting attacks. I believe if she stales her Usmash to the point where it's doing 1-2% per hit you can't DI out of it, correct me if I'm wrong on this. Dair can hit her out of Usmash if you aim for the head, however, the exact placement is rather strict and I mean it's really strict. It's humanly, but it's hard to do consistently.
She's more manageable in the air. Her aerials can be somewhat telegraphed, but avoid her Fair and Bair like a plague, SDI and DI can't save you much from those and those can put you really offstage. Uair can kill if you misplace yourself avoid her. Speaking of gimps her Dsmash which comes out in 4 frames is great for gimping Link, if you can't whiplash consistently, be careful with your spacing. The trajectory it sends Link is really bad for him and the move is very hard to DI.
My advice for Link's is to use his range to your advantage, use it to be able to zone her, don't use it to be super aggressive, this is what Zelda thrives on with her defensive game. Bait her to approach, this is something she is bad at, approaching is not her strong points in fact it's one of her main weaknesses. Camp her and zone her, if she makes a spacing mistake you can punish her for it. Don't approach unless your sure you can get in one her game. Jab, Zair, SHfair, just make sure your distance is right.
I'll cover stages when I do Sheik.
50:50 or 55:45 Zelda. I'm gonna say 55:45 because I'm pretty sure I'm only Saying 50:50 because I've played her befopre and understand her.
Link vs Zelda
This is the easier of the duo. Your only going to see her appear if the opponent is solo Zelda or has a love for killing with her. If your playing to use whoever has the better advantage as a Sheik Zelda main, don't. She does have some tools to gimp Link and a godly defensive game, but Sheik's aggro is so much better in ta Sheik he long run against Link. I've fought against some Sheik and Zelda mains and on one occasion forced them to switch back to Sheik because I did 80% while they couldn't land a kill move on me.
Zelda has a godly defensive game, don't run into it blindly. You can still camp her even though she has a reflector, Boomerang will have some trouble hitting her but if that gets reflected and your not in the air really close to the ledge it shouldn't be a problem, you can time arrows to hit her in the ending lag, bombs can hit her even if she reflect if you aim at the ground in front of her near her feet.
If your worried about Din's camping you, it shouldn't be a problem. Pay attention to her hand when she's doing it, when she flickers it is when you should air dodge, spot dodge or shield.
Some people mention DI as a way to avoid getting killed by her, well that's true that it is possible to DI out of her Fsmash and Usmash if your on the sides of her, it's going to be harder if you are in the center of her multi hitting attacks. I believe if she stales her Usmash to the point where it's doing 1-2% per hit you can't DI out of it, correct me if I'm wrong on this. Dair can hit her out of Usmash if you aim for the head, however, the exact placement is rather strict and I mean it's really strict. It's humanly, but it's hard to do consistently.
She's more manageable in the air. Her aerials can be somewhat telegraphed, but avoid her Fair and Bair like a plague, SDI and DI can't save you much from those and those can put you really offstage. Uair can kill if you misplace yourself avoid her. Speaking of gimps her Dsmash which comes out in 4 frames is great for gimping Link, if you can't whiplash consistently, be careful with your spacing. The trajectory it sends Link is really bad for him and the move is very hard to DI.
My advice for Link's is to use his range to your advantage, use it to be able to zone her, don't use it to be super aggressive, this is what Zelda thrives on with her defensive game. Bait her to approach, this is something she is bad at, approaching is not her strong points in fact it's one of her main weaknesses. Camp her and zone her, if she makes a spacing mistake you can punish her for it. Don't approach unless your sure you can get in one her game. Jab, Zair, SHfair, just make sure your distance is right.
I'll cover stages when I do Sheik.
50:50 or 55:45 Zelda. I'm gonna say 55:45 because I'm pretty sure I'm only Saying 50:50 because I've played her befopre and understand her.
Thank you. I'll cover Sheik well when I get back.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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Well I'm a horrible liar and double poster, but I owe people my thoughts on Sheik.
~
Link vs Sheik
She can go kill herself when I'm Link, Her tilt lock when staled is a pain in the rear to get out of. Well instead of her having a 90% chaingrab on us like she did in Melee in this game she has a tilt lock that ends with a sweetspotted Usmash if she does it right.
For those who don't know the tilt lock let me explain it. Sheik has a really good move in the form of her Ftilt, the move has relatively low knock-back and as such can legitimately combo into other moves, Dtilt, Utilt, Fair, Usmash and most importantly FTILT. Because it can combo into itself on heavy characters Sheik can use this low knockback move to trap certain characters in it, like Link. The more she uses it, the more she stales it, the more she stales it the longer she can keep you trapped in it and the harder it will be to DI out. Your best chance to DI out is within the first few hits and jump out or hope Sheik thinks your going to get out and uses one of the about moves she can combo into.
To make matters worse Sheik is notorious for being very fast on the ground and great at gimping. Link seriously need to ensure he has good DI can works on harassing Sheik when she tries to go for a gimp with Zair or Boomerang. Her Fair alone can guarantee you don't be able to recover, if she wants to be extra mean she can throw some needles at you from above to watch you fall downwards as you can't recover. She has options to gimp you very well, make sure you avoid offstage as much as you can.
For whats it's worth Link does have some advantages here, for one you can outcamp her from mid-range, don't do long range, her needles will outcamp you at that range. Platforms will help your camping be more dynamic while her's will be limited to vertical or a 45 degree angle downwards. Link can kill Sheik earlier than Vice versa unless she gimps you, but when it comes to kill power Link is better at it. At the same time her recovery isn't anything to right home about either. You do have some capabilty to gimp her as well even if her gimp game and recover is better than Link's.
You need to space with jab to ensure you can be as safe as possible, her speed makes it easier for her to punish your actions. Link already has lag problems as it is, she has the speed and fast moves to punish Link for a lot of what he does.
Stages, well it's tricky. I would exspect the opposing player to use sheik no matter what stage it is but Zelda has a few stages she can perform well that Sheik performs sub optimal on. Final destination, Zelda isn't that great, but Sheik performs absolutely well on that stage. Battlefield is good vs Sheik but Zelda loves having those platforms. Despite those advantages Battlefield is still a good stage to use against the duo. Norfair is a great stage against them seeing as the stage can safe you from gimping.
Zelda is a 45:55
Sheik is a 35:65
~
Link vs Sheik
She can go kill herself when I'm Link, Her tilt lock when staled is a pain in the rear to get out of. Well instead of her having a 90% chaingrab on us like she did in Melee in this game she has a tilt lock that ends with a sweetspotted Usmash if she does it right.
For those who don't know the tilt lock let me explain it. Sheik has a really good move in the form of her Ftilt, the move has relatively low knock-back and as such can legitimately combo into other moves, Dtilt, Utilt, Fair, Usmash and most importantly FTILT. Because it can combo into itself on heavy characters Sheik can use this low knockback move to trap certain characters in it, like Link. The more she uses it, the more she stales it, the more she stales it the longer she can keep you trapped in it and the harder it will be to DI out. Your best chance to DI out is within the first few hits and jump out or hope Sheik thinks your going to get out and uses one of the about moves she can combo into.
To make matters worse Sheik is notorious for being very fast on the ground and great at gimping. Link seriously need to ensure he has good DI can works on harassing Sheik when she tries to go for a gimp with Zair or Boomerang. Her Fair alone can guarantee you don't be able to recover, if she wants to be extra mean she can throw some needles at you from above to watch you fall downwards as you can't recover. She has options to gimp you very well, make sure you avoid offstage as much as you can.
For whats it's worth Link does have some advantages here, for one you can outcamp her from mid-range, don't do long range, her needles will outcamp you at that range. Platforms will help your camping be more dynamic while her's will be limited to vertical or a 45 degree angle downwards. Link can kill Sheik earlier than Vice versa unless she gimps you, but when it comes to kill power Link is better at it. At the same time her recovery isn't anything to right home about either. You do have some capabilty to gimp her as well even if her gimp game and recover is better than Link's.
You need to space with jab to ensure you can be as safe as possible, her speed makes it easier for her to punish your actions. Link already has lag problems as it is, she has the speed and fast moves to punish Link for a lot of what he does.
Stages, well it's tricky. I would exspect the opposing player to use sheik no matter what stage it is but Zelda has a few stages she can perform well that Sheik performs sub optimal on. Final destination, Zelda isn't that great, but Sheik performs absolutely well on that stage. Battlefield is good vs Sheik but Zelda loves having those platforms. Despite those advantages Battlefield is still a good stage to use against the duo. Norfair is a great stage against them seeing as the stage can safe you from gimping.
Zelda is a 45:55
Sheik is a 35:65
-dMT-
Smash Lord
Sheik can tipper usmash a lot though the platforms on BF. BF is still a better option compared to FD though.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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I'll agree on that.
So since it sounds like this MU is just about done who is next?
Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Zero Suit Samus
So since it sounds like this MU is just about done who is next?
Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Zero Suit Samus
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Toon Link. I hardly added anything to the last matchup 
I'll try this time since school's almost over and I play against Toon Link all the time.
I'll try this time since school's almost over and I play against Toon Link all the time.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Sheiks wins.
Zelda wish's she was Sheik.
k, match up done.
Zelda wish's she was Sheik.
k, match up done.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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Realmz
Smash Apprentice
Links Zair is better at spacing, but Toon Link can dish out some combos with his and has a bit easier time hitting Link with it. Try not to fall for Zair to grab. Although outranging Toon Link, Link lacks the speed compared to his toony self to make it an advantage. As such, Toon Link probably has the advantage upclose and on the ground, and definitely in the air. Link gets gimped pretty badly as usual, and sadly any of Tinks projectiles can make him lose momentum. We've seen/experienced worse though, so be unpredictable and watch out for Fair and edgehogging with his own hookshot. You can camp him back to an extent, but you are indeed outcamped.
For gods sake, DO NOT GET DOWNSMASHED UNDER 25%. Anywhere.
I'd say 60/40 TLinks advantage imo.
For gods sake, DO NOT GET DOWNSMASHED UNDER 25%. Anywhere.
I'd say 60/40 TLinks advantage imo.
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Toon Link certainly has the advantage of speed, but Link has more range and power with his attacks. Toon Link's aerials beat out Links. All of our aerials can kill at around 150% unstale. Watch out for TL's bair, since we can string more than one together to rack up damage. Our fair is a good killing move, although it has a small bit of startup lag. Our Uair is an insanely good vertical killing move, probably one of our best. I'm not sure if your Dair can beat our Uair, but I think our Uair will win. It's usually the case, since our Uair is so broken. Tinks rarely ever use Dair, but it's a good spike, assuming it hits. Watch out for it. Nair comes out quick, and has two hits. The knockback on it is okay. Unstale it can kill however.
Our grounded attacks aren't too great. Our best attacks are probably Usmash, Utilt, and Dsmash. Usmash is usually hyphened, just for the extra reach. Utilt comes out quick, can combo at low percents, and is a surprise killing move at high percents. Dsmash gimps at low percents, but it's only good at the edge. If it's in the middle of the stage, you can recover from it safely.
Projectiles. Always expect an arrow when a Toon Link lands on the ground. Bombs are our friend, and they should be yours too. Our boomerang, although not as impressive as yours, is still really good, and very effective.
Our grounded attacks aren't too great. Our best attacks are probably Usmash, Utilt, and Dsmash. Usmash is usually hyphened, just for the extra reach. Utilt comes out quick, can combo at low percents, and is a surprise killing move at high percents. Dsmash gimps at low percents, but it's only good at the edge. If it's in the middle of the stage, you can recover from it safely.
Projectiles. Always expect an arrow when a Toon Link lands on the ground. Bombs are our friend, and they should be yours too. Our boomerang, although not as impressive as yours, is still really good, and very effective.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Epic Double Post, whoops!
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
He's a younger version of you which explains the smaller peniz zair.
Realmz
Smash Apprentice
Toon Link has a peniz? Oh, you meant Zair.
I swear, Links boomerang is not better than Tinks. Its not about the "oh it could get us killed coming back in 9002 different ways" crap that never happens to any noteworthy Link - Its the inferior angle and combo potential, and Link has none worth mentioning save for one or two extremely unlikely gimmicks, and it can't even get you out of grabs. (which Link has alot of problems with to top it off) It doesn't even assure those combos since the opponent can still attack, and the slight gimp potential it has is almost useless due to links bad off-stage game. It does have lock setup potential however, and works wonders against Ness and Lucas *cough*
I swear, Links boomerang is not better than Tinks. Its not about the "oh it could get us killed coming back in 9002 different ways" crap that never happens to any noteworthy Link - Its the inferior angle and combo potential, and Link has none worth mentioning save for one or two extremely unlikely gimmicks, and it can't even get you out of grabs. (which Link has alot of problems with to top it off) It doesn't even assure those combos since the opponent can still attack, and the slight gimp potential it has is almost useless due to links bad off-stage game. It does have lock setup potential however, and works wonders against Ness and Lucas *cough*
the closer u r w/o getting in his face, the better. both have a decent spam game but on link has the advantage of pulling him in and nocking him down 4 jab lock and gale/arrow lock. TL has a much superior air game, stay grounded when possible. remember the utilt, can sum times completely outdo his zair and still hit him b4 it has a chance to **** u. remember the tether with his dsmash, but dont 4get 2 tech wen and if he bair u in2 the stage. dair beats his uair, and sumtimes vise-versa. TL has bombs as well, remember u can catch it with zair and u can main him with it.
ther is quite a bit 2 cover on this little crap (crap being TL
) since its like a mirror spam game but harder 2 penetrate up close. stay midrange.
ther is quite a bit 2 cover on this little crap (crap being TL
) since its like a mirror spam game but harder 2 penetrate up close. stay midrange.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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I'm not well versed in this MU but I'll talk about it anyways, consider this post a placeholder for my input.
#HBC | Red Ryu
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Link vs Toon Link
I'm pretty sure if TL stays in the air for his camp game, he will outcamp Link. While his arrows are slower than Link's they do make walls. His boomerang will hurt us on the return trip compared to ours that drags people into ourselves. Our Bombs are better in terms of damage but Toon Link's are better in terms of blast radius. His Zair is shorter, ours is longer. We can camp Toon Link but in this MU for most stages he will outcamp us. There are a few stages where I think we can apply our projectile game better than he can, Battlefield, Lylat, basically more platform orientated stages.
Toon Link is faster and floater than Link at the expense of range and kill power. Link can't recover well, but can live longer. Toon Link on the other hand can't live as long but has a better recovery. From this, Toon Link's air game is much better than Link's, His Fair, Nair, and Uair can be scary. Be careful of his Usmash on the ground, it is a good kill move.
If Link is on a more open stage he should approach, some platform stages can give him cover to camo back but for the most part Toon Link will force us to approach. Zair him in the air if he tries to approach in the air, his Zair is nowhere as long and as such is easier to deal with. Neither character should Dair the other, both of their Uairs outrange each other's Dairs. Link might be able to get away with it more due to his momentum carrying over to his Dair where as Toon Link's forces a fast smash vertically.
Link will win in a ground fight, it's slight but I do believe he has an advantage on the ground despite the speed advantage. Link can use his better range to space properly while keeping Toon Link out, not only that but Link has an easier time killing him from the ground.
Toon Link will win in the air, this is no contest. Not only his is maneuverability better but his aerials can kill and sone better. Link does have range in the form of Fair and Zair, but Toon Link has some was to work around that. Offstage, it's yucky Both characters can gimp each other, but Toon Link has it much easier than the other way around. Plus his floaty nature and better recovery help him go out father for gimps.
How to win one may ask, my thoughts on this. If your on a stage that is more open, again you need to approach, Toon Link camping correctly is hard to Link to camp right back when Toon Link does it from the air. If your on a stage with Platforms you can camp him back, on those kinds of stages I feel like it will come down to who's camp game is better developed, but on stages like FD, Toon Link will win in an item war. Remember, just because you are out-camped does not mean you shouldn't throw out boomerangs, arrows, or bombs, they assist on approaches and force options to be used.
Link should focus on staying on the ground for the most part, Toon Link is way better in the air. It's easier for him to react to Toon Link's options and space to keep him away with his tiny sword. Don't underestimate his range, while Link does have a range advantage you need to remember Toon Link's sword isn't a toothpick. His range can still make it hard for you if your not careful in spacing.
Jab can keep him out, Dsmash can kill him, Ftilt and FF Fair can limit his SH approaches, retreated Zair will keep you safe. You can keep yourself save, play a safe baiting game, Toon Link has trouble landing his kill moves, while Link's lag isn't going to help you should be able to stop him from getting too close for them. Link has some simular problems, but with Link being able to kill earlier it shouldn't be a problem.
Something I should note about Toon Link's ground game, you know his Dsmash, you know the one that has the first hit lead into the second hit? Well some funny things happen when you don't get hit by the second hit. First off it has a set trajectory, meaning you will always go that distance, well you see this first hit sends people down diagonally. This is really bad for Link, he will not recover from this and it can be done at 0%. Dsmash won't always do this, but some stages have slants, Yoshi's Island Brawl, that can allow him to get only the first hit off. Plus he has a bomb tech that allows him to hit with only the first hit. Be careful of slants and Toon Link when he is short hopping with his back to the ledge with bomb in hand.
I've seen this trap pulled off, it's nasty when it works on characters with limited recoveries, AKA Link.
Stages you need to pick ones that will limit Toon Link's camping and air game while allowing you to kill him earlier and force more ground game. Pokemon Stadium 1 comes to mind, Pokemon stadium 2 might, but only on certain transformations. Battlefield is a good, it does what you want to do in this MU. Norfair is kind of iffy, it helps both characters spam, but it assists Toon Link's Air game, I'd suggest other stages over this one.
I want to say 55-45 Toon Link, but since I'm still not 100% sure on this MU I'm going to say 60-40 Toon Link until proven otherwise. Toon Link can still fight on the ground, and his gimping with camp game is mean on Link.
I'm pretty sure if TL stays in the air for his camp game, he will outcamp Link. While his arrows are slower than Link's they do make walls. His boomerang will hurt us on the return trip compared to ours that drags people into ourselves. Our Bombs are better in terms of damage but Toon Link's are better in terms of blast radius. His Zair is shorter, ours is longer. We can camp Toon Link but in this MU for most stages he will outcamp us. There are a few stages where I think we can apply our projectile game better than he can, Battlefield, Lylat, basically more platform orientated stages.
Toon Link is faster and floater than Link at the expense of range and kill power. Link can't recover well, but can live longer. Toon Link on the other hand can't live as long but has a better recovery. From this, Toon Link's air game is much better than Link's, His Fair, Nair, and Uair can be scary. Be careful of his Usmash on the ground, it is a good kill move.
If Link is on a more open stage he should approach, some platform stages can give him cover to camo back but for the most part Toon Link will force us to approach. Zair him in the air if he tries to approach in the air, his Zair is nowhere as long and as such is easier to deal with. Neither character should Dair the other, both of their Uairs outrange each other's Dairs. Link might be able to get away with it more due to his momentum carrying over to his Dair where as Toon Link's forces a fast smash vertically.
Link will win in a ground fight, it's slight but I do believe he has an advantage on the ground despite the speed advantage. Link can use his better range to space properly while keeping Toon Link out, not only that but Link has an easier time killing him from the ground.
Toon Link will win in the air, this is no contest. Not only his is maneuverability better but his aerials can kill and sone better. Link does have range in the form of Fair and Zair, but Toon Link has some was to work around that. Offstage, it's yucky Both characters can gimp each other, but Toon Link has it much easier than the other way around. Plus his floaty nature and better recovery help him go out father for gimps.
How to win one may ask, my thoughts on this. If your on a stage that is more open, again you need to approach, Toon Link camping correctly is hard to Link to camp right back when Toon Link does it from the air. If your on a stage with Platforms you can camp him back, on those kinds of stages I feel like it will come down to who's camp game is better developed, but on stages like FD, Toon Link will win in an item war. Remember, just because you are out-camped does not mean you shouldn't throw out boomerangs, arrows, or bombs, they assist on approaches and force options to be used.
Link should focus on staying on the ground for the most part, Toon Link is way better in the air. It's easier for him to react to Toon Link's options and space to keep him away with his tiny sword. Don't underestimate his range, while Link does have a range advantage you need to remember Toon Link's sword isn't a toothpick. His range can still make it hard for you if your not careful in spacing.
Jab can keep him out, Dsmash can kill him, Ftilt and FF Fair can limit his SH approaches, retreated Zair will keep you safe. You can keep yourself save, play a safe baiting game, Toon Link has trouble landing his kill moves, while Link's lag isn't going to help you should be able to stop him from getting too close for them. Link has some simular problems, but with Link being able to kill earlier it shouldn't be a problem.
Something I should note about Toon Link's ground game, you know his Dsmash, you know the one that has the first hit lead into the second hit? Well some funny things happen when you don't get hit by the second hit. First off it has a set trajectory, meaning you will always go that distance, well you see this first hit sends people down diagonally. This is really bad for Link, he will not recover from this and it can be done at 0%. Dsmash won't always do this, but some stages have slants, Yoshi's Island Brawl, that can allow him to get only the first hit off. Plus he has a bomb tech that allows him to hit with only the first hit. Be careful of slants and Toon Link when he is short hopping with his back to the ledge with bomb in hand.
I've seen this trap pulled off, it's nasty when it works on characters with limited recoveries, AKA Link.
Stages you need to pick ones that will limit Toon Link's camping and air game while allowing you to kill him earlier and force more ground game. Pokemon Stadium 1 comes to mind, Pokemon stadium 2 might, but only on certain transformations. Battlefield is a good, it does what you want to do in this MU. Norfair is kind of iffy, it helps both characters spam, but it assists Toon Link's Air game, I'd suggest other stages over this one.
I want to say 55-45 Toon Link, but since I'm still not 100% sure on this MU I'm going to say 60-40 Toon Link until proven otherwise. Toon Link can still fight on the ground, and his gimping with camp game is mean on Link.
good call ryu, couldnt have said it better myself. no quite literally i couldnt. i havnt ever really played good TL's either but u seem 2 have the right idea. good werk.
on another note, im just now noticing your brawler card says you dont main link anymore...whats up with that?
on another note, im just now noticing your brawler card says you dont main link anymore...whats up with that?
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
Link is a very good height/weight for TL to combo/juggle with zair->nair, bair, and just utilt, so early on in a life you'll want to camp until you get to around 40-50%. At that point at least the bair and utilt have too much knockback to properly chain into themselves.
Be careful with bombs. In the past I (the TL) have been significantly better at using them than the FL I'm facing, so more often than not I'd be using his own bombs against him to the point where they stop using that move. You have to be unpredictable with them and use them in high-chance situations only. TL is floaty and likes to screw around with bombs a lot more, so most likely he'll be more adept at that stuff.
Also, TL pays close attention to his own returning rang, so he'll have no trouble keeping track of yours. You'll still be able to do a lot of cool techniques with it, but don't expect to catch us off guard with it.
That said, be very careful of getting gimped. That will win TL the match since it's easier than most for us with your recovery. An arrow or two and tether hogging can stop you from getting back. If you don't get gayed at like 10% with a dsmash, it's nearly even. maybe 55-45 TL
Be careful with bombs. In the past I (the TL) have been significantly better at using them than the FL I'm facing, so more often than not I'd be using his own bombs against him to the point where they stop using that move. You have to be unpredictable with them and use them in high-chance situations only. TL is floaty and likes to screw around with bombs a lot more, so most likely he'll be more adept at that stuff.
Also, TL pays close attention to his own returning rang, so he'll have no trouble keeping track of yours. You'll still be able to do a lot of cool techniques with it, but don't expect to catch us off guard with it.
That said, be very careful of getting gimped. That will win TL the match since it's easier than most for us with your recovery. An arrow or two and tether hogging can stop you from getting back. If you don't get gayed at like 10% with a dsmash, it's nearly even. maybe 55-45 TL
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Thanks, I'm just going off what I know about TL, even if I haven't played the MU a whole lot to judge it correctly.
Lucario and Link are my most used characters that I main, I flip them around once and a while in my card for no reason really.
I had Lucario's ask me if I dropped Lucario for Link when I did this a month or two ago.
BRLNK88
Smash Ace
60:40 Toon Link, MAYBE at the best of times, 55:45.
Toon Link outmaneuvers and out-camps, Link outranges and outpowers.
However, Link can't really contend with Tink's mean aerial game.
Despite Link's zair being longer, Tink is a short character, and not easy to hit with it, while if Tink can get close enough, Link is easy to hit, which can lead to all kinds of options.
And of course Tink gimps the living **** out of Link, one of the few characters it's not unreasonable for Tink to attempt to spike.
Basically Link needs to win the spacing game, force Tink into some mistakes and make him eat the larger and younger version of his own sword. And don't forget that Link has some good tools for gimping Tink. Projectiles of course, and zair edgehog.
Toon Link outmaneuvers and out-camps, Link outranges and outpowers.
However, Link can't really contend with Tink's mean aerial game.
Despite Link's zair being longer, Tink is a short character, and not easy to hit with it, while if Tink can get close enough, Link is easy to hit, which can lead to all kinds of options.
And of course Tink gimps the living **** out of Link, one of the few characters it's not unreasonable for Tink to attempt to spike.
Basically Link needs to win the spacing game, force Tink into some mistakes and make him eat the larger and younger version of his own sword. And don't forget that Link has some good tools for gimping Tink. Projectiles of course, and zair edgehog.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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If people want to get in some last minute info or anything feel free.
We will move on very shortly,
Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi
Your pick.
Also I updated the ratio chart on the front page, if something is wrong or out of place feel free to correct me.
We will move on very shortly,
Ice Climbers, Jigglypuff, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi
Your pick.
Also I updated the ratio chart on the front page, if something is wrong or out of place feel free to correct me.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Don't know if you guys know but, On AiB link borads call Toon Link..........
GAY.
that's his nick name.....Gay.
Don't ask why...if you don't know go to AiB on the link boards...and simply ask.
GAY.
that's his nick name.....Gay.
Don't ask why...if you don't know go to AiB on the link boards...and simply ask.
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
A few AiB Links and SWF Links had a fallout (not falling out) and the rest of us are caught in the radiation. It's a small group of people. Don't categorize Link mains by the websites. Same thing goes for the nickname.
And don't go ask; you'll get flamed.
I post on both sites, but it's not about choosing sides anyway.
Absolutely all Link's attacks will cancel weak range. Standard attacks cancel range if they hit at the Tip and Start. Nair/Uair/Dair have constant attack while in effect and will cancel TLink's arrows and boomerang if Link's hurtbox isn't hit. Nair to stop TLink's spam.
Space Animal lasers and Robo Beam penetrate every standard attack. Don’t use standards vs. bombs, Yoshi Eggs, Snake’s missile or banana peels.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
Vonzar the Soulrender
4th Dimensional Horror
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- 819
I think TL - Link MU is at least 65/35 if not worse. TL has the speedy and lagless attacks, good air game, and good gimping game to really screw over a Link player. Link of course out ranges TL with the sword and even has a bit more power behind some of his moves. However all his stuff is laggy and easily punished. By a quick TL.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Since no one voted on the next MU, I'll pick this one.
Jigglypuff is a gogo.
Jigglypuff is a gogo.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
In this matchup Link needs to play keep away from Jigglypuff or hes going to lose.
Jigglypuff has no projectiles, running away while firing projectiles at jigglypuff is your best way of getting damage. Boost Upsmash also is another way to catch jigglypuff off guard. If Jigglypuff gets into close range with you expect some juggling and gimping. Basically, Jigglypuffs a weaker and slower version of Metaknight imo so I'd say this match up is either 65-35 or 60-40 in Jigglypuff's favor.
Levels you should counter against Jigglypuff are stages like Final Destination and Castle Siege where you have more room to run away or Brinstar so you can't get gimped. Stages you would want to ban are Frigate and Jungle Japes.
Jigglypuff has no projectiles, running away while firing projectiles at jigglypuff is your best way of getting damage. Boost Upsmash also is another way to catch jigglypuff off guard. If Jigglypuff gets into close range with you expect some juggling and gimping. Basically, Jigglypuffs a weaker and slower version of Metaknight imo so I'd say this match up is either 65-35 or 60-40 in Jigglypuff's favor.
Levels you should counter against Jigglypuff are stages like Final Destination and Castle Siege where you have more room to run away or Brinstar so you can't get gimped. Stages you would want to ban are Frigate and Jungle Japes.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
I dunno about 60:40. Link has okay projectiles and his zair, and on top of that his sword range is pretty nice.
I don't have the experience but I would call it a 50:50 on paper. Link is easier to gimp than Olimar or Ivysaur.
btw I tend to forget about matchup threads on other character boards. If you want to respond leave me a pm or a vm so that I remember to come back.
I don't have the experience but I would call it a 50:50 on paper. Link is easier to gimp than Olimar or Ivysaur.
btw I tend to forget about matchup threads on other character boards. If you want to respond leave me a pm or a vm so that I remember to come back.
Framerate
Smash Lord
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I don't have any experience in this MU beyond wifi friendlies. What I noticed was that link's utilt really destroys puff's approach. That and projectiles eff puff up. And disjointed hit boxes. I'm thinking either 50:50 or maybe 55:45 link's favor. While I can gimp him if he's off stage, I still gotta get him there...
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