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Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

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ndayday

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Since you said more on that matchup then I can comprehend, I really don't have anything to add paragraph wise. However, doesn't Link's Hylian Shield block AS? I'm sure it could block the BASs, but how does it do against fully charged aura spheres, or even fully charged aura spheres with the aura buff?

If it can block even one of those, it'd be good to know, although you probably won't find many situations where Lucario is just sitting across the stage firing them at you. I'm not too sure on how Lucario uses AS in general, so I can't really say much on the matter.
 

phi1ny3

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It can, but the shield has to be more spot on so that it doesn't register as a hit, but yes, it'll neutralize even Fully charged AS (unless Link has some mechanic that I'm not aware of)
Kind of situational anyways though.
 

Anonano

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Unless I'm much mistaken, ducking blocks fully charged aura spheres fired from the ground, but not one fired from the air. This is probably the one matchup where the hylian shield could viably be used to approach an opponent in that fashion. There's some serious mindgames here. This matchup is definitely more than two dimensional, and is probably one of the cooler ones in the game (imo). But overall, 60:40 Lucario.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Fun fact; Link's idel poses, the ones where he spins his sword and the one where he looks at the background of the stage. His shield isn't up, Lucario can chuck an Aura sphere and nail him. If Link stood still that long, he kind of deserves to be hit.

Ano is right, if Link ducks with his shield, he won't be hit by grounded Aura sphere.

There is a small part where SH BAS while hit Link in the head, same with Fully Charged, but Link could just stand up and let his shield block it.

Of course this is assuming Link is blocking the Aura Sphere with his shield like this. It's nice to do, I think there might be better things for Link to be doing, jumping over it and firing an arrow or something. But it is nice to know the option is there for Link if he want to Block it without his bubble shield getting hit.
 

phi1ny3

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lol I think lucario is going to be approaching more often than not against a good link, that camp game is surprisingly good for a low tier.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Lucario is going to be approaching, BAS at higher percentage eats up Arrows and Boomerang so Lucario isn't really forced to approach as badly as he was before.
 

Anonano

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Removed by request of the owner. KirinBlaze's thread will act as the current matchup discussion thread instead.

EDIT: There are some issues between the threads, so I'm going to leave this stickied for the time being.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'm going to be working on the exact % for when Lucario's Projectiles beat stuff.

Since it sounds like we're done with this.

Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Lucas, Toon Link

Your pick.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Ganondorf is a gogo.

Let's go save Hyrule.

Remember to bring your fishing rods.

edit: Can only admins add youtube videos to posts?
 

Superspright

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It's a really whacky matchup. Projectiles are Ganon's most hated. He has no real approach aside from the shad buffered sidestep/demonic step. And that's not an approach so much as it is just him weaving in and out of invincibility frames.

Ganon can catch the bombs [using shad it's very easy], and has a MUCH better glidetoss. He's a lot stronger than link, but link is very heavy himself and is hard to kill off the top.

Link's and Ganon's recovery is garbage, but Ganon has TONS of gimping options off the stage. More than Link, but Links are easier--just shoot an arrow and Ganon usually just loses momentum and dies.

Watch out for the reverse uair gimp. Watch out for the gerudo pimp slap. Watch out for thunderstomping, etc.

Link can be stomp chased--I've done it quite a few times, and he can be stomp chased from the gerudo as well with prediction. This matchup is not easy for either side I think, but it's probably easier for link because of all the disjointed attacks he has an the projectiles--zair is also not as good as one might think against Ganon. His wizkick drives a train through it and could hit you. At high percents this means significant knockback and maybe off the stage--so be careful when spacing with zairs.

Overall, I'd say it is in link's favor just by virtue of his projectiles and his disjointed attacks. But, it's probably no worse than 70-30.

Also! Watch out for your tornado--it comes back [duh], but it may be bringing a flying utilt with it. I sometimes use people's boomerangs to give my attacks range and surprise--especially my utilt. So if you see a Ganon charging on and the boomerang is coming back, beware of the mindgames that Ganon HAS to rely on to win. There is no way he can go toe to toe and just flat out defeat Link. I've beaten good links before with ganon, but it isn't consistent.
 

A2ZOMG

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It's like 6/4 Link, overall he dominates, but he gets gimped so easily by random hitboxes that get thrown offstage that Ganondorf could somehow win. Flame Choke -> Jab helps get Link offstage at any rate when it lands. Landing random Sparta Kicks also does no favors to Link's recovery.
 

DLA

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It should be 0:100 because Link always ends up beating Ganon (lol), but I'll put it at 45:55, Link's favor. In theory, Link's projectiles should give Ganon a lot of trouble, but it's actually pretty easy to powershield most of what Link launches at you (and believe me, you get a lot of practice with powershielding when you're a Ganon main).

On the ground, Link has a slight advantage over Ganon. Link's fall speed is perfect for Ganon to combo Dairs at 0%, so if you get stomped at 0%, you're probably going to get comboed into at least 53% (as long as the Ganon avoids the Nair). Link's long, disjointed hitbox and jab combos can give Ganon some trouble, but it's not too difficult for Ganon to space around.

Off the stage, Ganon will rock Link pretty hard. I'm not sure how many of you have fought good Ganons, but I know that I personally get excited when I fight a character with bad recovery, because I get to wreck them offstage. A reverse Uair spike (tipman spike) almost definitely means death for Link, and a good Ganon will utilize it well in this matchup. Dair spikes work well too. Links need to be careful about getting hit with Sparta Kicks and Fairs, because those will be very hard to recover from. From what I understand, Link has a few tricks offstage too, though. When I fought Legan, he gimped me a few times with Gale Boomerang and dropping Nair off the stage. I gimped him pretty badly too though >:)

Overall, I think this is a fun matchup for both sides... Link can mess up Ganon pretty bad with projectiles and his dreaded master sword, but Ganon will dominate offstage. 45:55 Link
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I play a Ganon main offline whenever I'm home from college. It might be because I play him more but I think he's has gimped me more times that any other character I've played. It might just me playing him more than anyone else be he does know how to Dair properly. DLA is right Ganon can double Dair if he does it right.

Projectile spam will be used to keep Ganon away, as always, for once we are fast enough to use our range to keep Ganon off us. Ganon can jab the Gale Boomerang, honestly, it's easier to just Shield the projectiles. Space as best you can with Link's jabs and Ftilt, Zair is really annoying for Ganon. Most of the time I find myself shielding and punishing. Side B one of the things to watch out for if Link's go for this method.

Offstage puts Link is a bad position, he needs to use his projectiles to mess up gimp set-ups from Ganondorf. If your forced to use UpB and Ganon sees this, your dead, Dair tight on top of Link's head.

When I played Twilight on wifi a while back he liked to go to Norfair with Ganondorf.

Why am I even talking about this. Ganon can't beat Link, Link uses butterfly nets and fishing rods to beat people up.

100:0 Link.




























































































































































































































































60:40 Link at best, it's not a 70:30.
 

GreyClover

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Woah, Red Ryu you're way behind with the match-up thread. You're only up to DDD and that was MU #5. You either need to do work or slow down.

Anyways Ganondorf right, okay.

Projectiles are always a reliable source to use against Ganondorf. Because of his slow speed and lack of aerial movement Ganondorf doesn't have any options besides power shielding and jabbing a boomerang. There's also the jab cancels that works really good, this time Ganondorf cannot do anything to aviod it. Almost everything you finish the jab cancel with will work successfully. Now Ganondorf too has some decent options to enforce on against. His flame choke has a 100% jab follow-up. Oh and speaking of the jab, it's quick, fast, and has good range. It's also a good spacing tool if Link is getting too close. Ganondorf can seem a lot faster than most people think and that's because of his uair. A uair can be buffed into other aerials or even ground attacks. Then there's the horrible offstage uair which is really good at gimping especially to us. Ganondorf also can Dair spike us or thunder storm as well for a gimp. Still that doesn't mean we can gimp Ganondorf either. Arrows works real nice since it completely stops all of Ganon's momentum and the boomerang can gimp him good.

For stages I'm guessing Final Destination for a counterpick since you're going to be able to camp easier.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Woah, Red Ryu you're way behind with the match-up thread. You're only up to DDD and that was MU #5. You either need to do work or slow down.
I'm holding off on exports for now until I get some projects done.

I'll do them again as soon as those are done.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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You know I'm going to do exports in the future anyways.

So here are your choices,

Ice Climbers, Lucas, Toon Link, (Shiek/Zelda)
 

smashkng

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Link offstage is near dead. Ganon's Reverse up air is almost always OHKO for Link (Link will up b straight upwards and too far from the stage).
 

Ray_Kalm

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Link offstage is near dead. Ganon's Reverse up air is almost always OHKO for Link (Link will up b straight upwards and too far from the stage).
Is that all you posted for? State one random good fact about Ganon, and then back it up?
 

Ray_Kalm

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Link offstage is near dead. Ganon's Reverse up air is almost always OHKO for Link (Link will up b straight upwards and too far from the stage).
Is that all you posted for? State one random good fact about Ganon, and then back it up?

Ganon won't always gimp Link off-stage, Link's boomerang and recovery properties saves him alot.
 

smashkng

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Is that all you posted for? State one random good fact about Ganon, and then back it up?

Ganon won't always gimp Link off-stage, Link's boomerang and recovery properties saves him alot.
But this doesn't prevent Ganon's up air being a true beast on an offstage Link.
 

Ray_Kalm

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But this doesn't prevent Ganon's up air being a true beast on an offstage Link.
It does. It doesn't allow Ganon to ALWAYS gimp Link off-stage. The same can't be said for Ganon though, he doesn't have anything beside his UAir to protect himself from Link's gimp attempts, and even that's easy to avoid.
 

GreyClover

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Okay I have some experience against Lucas.

On the ground both Lucas and Link have good options to enforce on one other. One thing Lucas can do is a Dtilt Fsmash lock, if you're at high percents it can kill you. There's also Lucas's grabs which is not as powerful as Ness's but a Dthrow is great for starting up chains and his jabs/tilts does a good job at damaging. Link does kill better than Lucas. Just watch out for his Fsmash, it's fast and powerful. Oh and the PKT2 hurts hard too but it's really easy to aviod. In the air Lucas has plenty of aerials to use and it's probably going to work somehow. Fair has great speed and many uses including spacing, gimping, and combos. Then there's the Nair, it's so good for combos and damaging. Lucas's Dair have great priority and it can spike as well as his Bair. Lucas's aerial combos are so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. There's tons of different aerials Lucas can add to on a combo, Dair, Fair, Uair, Bair. Lucas can gimp, he can gimp with every single aerial. Oh and he can use pk fire and thunder to aid in edge guarding as well. Link on the other hand can't gimp as well has Lucas but you can go for Bairs or Fairs to edge guard, just be careful of his sneaky double jump and his pkt.
 

rPSIvysaur

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A good Lucas probably won't get gimped by a Link unless you use the pulling effect of your Boomerang. I'd say galegaurding isn't that bad of an option. Lucas' PKT2 has surprisingly good range, his Zap Jump makes him have the best second jump in the game and Magnet Pulling can put him at a good stage postion to not get gimped. I'd suggest to make him not Magnet Pull to keep Bomb's in the air and force him to either Zap Jump or PKT2. If he Zap Jumps it's hard to punish but it's risky for Lucas to do because if he messes up it's usually a lost stock unless he can PKT2 back. When he PKT2's, I'd try to tether hog him if he doesn't aim correctly, but Lucas has one of the best free fall aerial movement, so he can usually get back after that.

Ground game Link has this. Your sword can cut through our PKFire and we're forced to approach. A good zoning tactic that my friend uses is to Z-air to prevent Lucas' SH approaches and D-smash because if he isn't approaching from the air then it will outrange all his grounded approaches. There is two ways Lucas can beat this though, SHPKFire and D-tilt, however for only 6 or 8 percent, you usually will get more damage on him. Also the obvious Bomb to SHAirdodge-Z-air is always good. (note: your u-smash is easy for Lucas to DI out because he can just DI down and land underneath your last strike and he can punish if he knows the MU.

Obviously Lucas has a somewhat good aerial game, but he lacks disjoints larger than Links. Be extremely wary of his D-air because it has the best disjoint and is the second most reliable jab lock set-up in the game. At about 70, if he lands all four hit's you hit the ground hard and it's hard to tech if it's full hopped. He has three options, infinite you, d-tilt to f-smash, or the Tyr combo (all of them lead to death). Lucas obviously can't juggle Link so his U-air as a kill move is hardly used in this MU.

I'm not going to state anything about Link's recovery because I know a good Link main shouldn't be gimped too easily by a Lucas because I know that I'll be eating projectiles for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner.

Punishment:

Grab: Lucas has probably the worst grab (debateable w/ ZSS) and it only grabs 2 frames from when a f-smash would hit. It's easily side-stepable because it only last 1 frame and he has about 60(estimate) frames or lag, PUNISH!
F-smash: Lucas has decent range on this move, but I believe that Link can shield-grab this move because of his awesome tether (better than Lucas')
D-smash: Three hit strike w/ too much start up lag, you shouldn't have much problem w/ this unless the Lucas uses your Boomerang to his advantage
U-smash: LOL (I mean literally, if he tries to pull this off, laugh out loud... it's the best form of punishment embarresment)
F-tilt: Fast, but not much range (used as a GTFO move)
U-tilt: Fast, but not much range (note: this will be used to string together with n-air)
D-tilt: Lucas has too much disadvantage for this move, you have about 6 frames to retaliate to this, so use your fastest move or just try to shield it (because I believe Link's moves are too slow)
Jab: Frame 2, it can be sheild grabbed for the first hit. Lucas only jab cancel is jab to d-tilt for 8 damage, which is not as good as his full jab combo. This move might become a pesterence to you because it's fast and hard to punish if he gets the second kick out
PKFire: Against Link, if he WB's it he's put in a bad position. Try to make sure that he's at the reach of the Z-air range to keep him from SHing it

Lucas has an extremely limited options when holding a bomb. A thing to note is that he can Zap Jump w/ an item (it makes it easier). His PKFire is his only option when holding a bomb. So when he picks up the bomb keep constant pressure on him and make it explode with him.

Anyways, I hope I helped!
 

Realmz

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Is it okay to still give some input on the Ganondorf match-up, since the ratio hasn't been determined yet? If so, I have some things to add:


I think Links best option is to keep Ganon away. Rely on projectiles to slow his approaches down and to keep the the pressure on him, but once Ganon gets in mid-range start spacing him with Zair or go for a jab. Don't go for the grab, AT ALL, because a competent Ganon will punish that like their life depended on it, and grabs are kind of empty in this match up since the point is to get him away from you, and you have much better options for that in the first place.

Link can make it very difficult for Ganon to approach him or get him off stage if he puts his mind to it and doesn't use too many punishable moves in which would normally lead to said gimps and spikes. If Link fights Ganon up close and doesn't gay him out with overboard spacing (Zair) and spam, then its only Links slight advantage - But thats not the case. If a character has options to play a certain way, even if gay, and have a better chance at winning, it needs to be taken into account.

I think its 60/40 Links advantage. This is just my opinion of what I've observed though, so tell me if I'm overlooking any of Ganondorfs options please. =)
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I was going to post earlier but I kind of forgot to be honest.

Anyway on to Lucas.

Here is the psychic kids from earthbound who separates himself from Ness by the use of more psychic abilities. Link has pros over this MU some of which allow him to stay relatively safe.

Link will outcamp Lucas, nothing Link throws will be absorb-able. PKfire can be shielded, although I didn't know Link could just bat it away with his sword. There is PKthunder but that like PKfire can be blocked and canceled out with projectiles. Both can spam but Link is better in this department.

Ground game I really think Link's is a tad better. The disjointedness of his sword can keep Link safe, speed in the main issue with this, Lucas is better speed wise even if he his lacking on range for some attacks. Granted Dsmash and Usmash are one the slower side but do have nice payoff when they hit. Lucas's Fsmash is a threat, it has good range, speed, and knockback.

In the air, I actually think Lucas performs better. While Link does have disjoints and Zair his aerial moves and momentum is just better for getting in and out. Be careful of his Dair, it has a few set-ups into some nasty stuff, like a jab lock and a possible Fsmash.

When it comes to gimping Lucas good luck doing it against someone who knows how to Zapjump consistently. Link can gale boomerang to mess it up but Lucas can easily set up and perform zap jump well before Link can get him. Lucas has gimping options against Link, PKthunder can leave Link in enough hit stun to prevent him to recover sometimes, off stage fair and bair are good choices to consider for Lucas.

Stages, well FD to complement camping, Norfair if it's legal, and BrinstaI'm not entirely sure what Lucas will CP.

I may be bold in saying this, but I think this is a 50-50. IF someone wants to correct me on the ratio feel free, I don't have much experience with this MU outside of one low tier tournament and one non low tier tournament.
 

rPSIvysaur

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I personally think this MU is 50:50 but it's probably 45:55 Lucas advantage. Most of our advantage comes from on stage gimps, but if Link places his boomerang right, Lucas can fall to his doom. I find Lucas' d-air to also be viable for gimping much more than f-air or b-air because the general laginess of Link's u-air makes it unsafe to use off stage.

Lucas' best stages are Norfair, Brinstar and Japes. If I were Link I'd definitely ban Japes against Lucas. Lucas can easily control the stage. If I were Link I'd want to CP flat neutral camping stages.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I personally think this MU is 50:50 but it's probably 45:55 Lucas advantage. Most of our advantage comes from on stage gimps, but if Link places his boomerang right, Lucas can fall to his doom. I find Lucas' d-air to also be viable for gimping much more than f-air or b-air because the general laginess of Link's u-air makes it unsafe to use off stage.

Lucas' best stages are Norfair, Brinstar and Japes. If I were Link I'd definitely ban Japes against Lucas. Lucas can easily control the stage. If I were Link I'd want to CP flat neutral camping stages.
Well I'll strike Norfair from the list of Link CPs.

This info looks good, I'll wait a few more days to see if any more Lucas' or Link's post before moving on.
 

Thunder Of Zeus

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This is a dangerous match-up, but if you play it right, I'd call it a solid 40:60.

Lucas has the recovery that Link lacks, allowing him to return from anywhere on any legal stage, given his second jump.
Link.... does not.

Things to watch out for:
Gimping yourself:
Be extremely careful with your Boomerang. If you get predictable with the Gale Rang, Lucas will F-Smash it right back at you, which is a serious problem for Link, with his less than spectacular recovery. Arrows and bombs, could also be returned, but the Boomerang is really the only legitimate threat.
B-Air:
You will not likely recover from this. Don't get hit by it.
Off-Stage:
With his Fire, Thunder and Freeze, Lucas is a terror against Link's recovery. Keep a bomb in hand to prevent the easy kills.
Lucas from below:
He has Freeze and U-Smash in his arsenal. Lucas will outspace anything, save for bombs, from below you; he is dressed to kill. Don't get lazy when falling back to the stage, and keep a bomb dropping below you to stop any oncoming U-Smashes or Freezes.

Things to capitalize on:
Juggling:
Lucas is relatively weak from below. Utilize Bomb-Slides, Dacus, Hyphen Smashes and U-Tilts to keep Lucas in the air.
Spam Game:
While Lucas can F-Smash your projectiles back at you, a steady wave of spam won't be stopped by a baseball bat.
Spacing:
All Lucas has for distance is Freeze, Fire and Thunder. Keep a medium distance, at most, from him; this eliminates both Thunder and Freeze. Your only remaining enemy is Fire. Utilize your amazing Zair (with DACUS or QDA, of course) and Jabs to control the spacing game that Lucas will have trouble handling.

40:60
 
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