Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[Vex Kasrani]

Snake lives a lot longer, it's just BLASPHEMY to insist they die at the same percents.

Snake has much more reliable and early options for killing.

Snake has a MUCH better recovery.

Grenades are MUCH better than bombs.

Snake excels on all of Link's counterpicks and has many Link are bad at.


Seriously, are the Link mains THIS insane?

65:35, cmon guys..

^^^^^^^^

I would even go to say its 30:70.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Snake lives a lot longer, it's just BLASPHEMY to insist they die at the same percents.

The tilts are too scary for Link, particularly ftilt; that one builds up damage and has a knockback that Link really fears. Jab is also fairly scary, although it can be DIed and punished, or whiplashed (ftilt usually can't be whiplashed). Utilt will kill at far higher percents. A fresh utilt will kill Link around 150% (on smaller levels), and on taller levels you can expect to kill Link around 215-240% .
Ftilt and jabs are a much better killing tool. They'll kill/lead to gimps on Link at around 100-125%.

Link has slightly more trouble killing Snake, which is why this matchup is in Snake's favor. He'll kill Snake with fresh KO moves around 140-225%. Its a big KO range, but that's just how much lead Snake carries around in his pockets. Snake should always try to DI towards the corner, and if he does, he'll survive to the 225% side.

Snake has much more reliable and early options for killing.

*Confirmed above*

Snake has a MUCH better recovery.

This is true.

Snake should still recover high to avoid a Dair or something like that.

Link mainly has to worry about Bair.

Grenades are MUCH better than bombs.

Doesn't matter when Link can clank them with arrows and boomerang, and his bombs blow up with grenades.

Snake excels on all of Link's counterpicks and has many Link are bad at.

Rainbow Cruise says hello.

Seriously, are the Link mains THIS insane?

65:35, cmon guys..

I post the general conscientious, nothing more or less.

~

Match-Up Discussion #12; Snake

55:45 Snake
Arguable for 50:50

Links Advantages

* Link's projectiles make approaching very difficult for Snake at times and rack up damage fast.
* All projectiles stop his best approach, his DAC or Mortar Slide.
* Link's KO power can KO Snake earlier then some other characters. Dair does a very good job at KOing Snake.
* Zair is very good at keeping Snake away from you due to his size. It also sets up for a few combos. Zair>Dash Attack/DAC/Grab.
* Snake is very easy to juggle due to a very poor aerial game.
* Snake doesn't have a lot to gimp you offstage with.
* Link can arguably out camp Snake.
* Even Snake may have a hard time KOing Link due to his weight and excellent DI.
* Very easy to punish his mediocre recovery.

Snake's Advantages

* Powerful tilt attacks that are abused/spammed often.
* Above average projectile game.
* Just about everything Snake has can kill.
* DAC makes for an excellent approach.
* Link cannot reliably grab Snake out of his cyhper to gimp Snake.
* Overall better KO potential then Link.

-Lawz Input-
Snake is a powerhouse. his tilts have insane range (ftilt and utilt) and deal lots of damage. he is a very slow character and i'm pretty sure Link can outspam him. Snake's recovery is decent, cypher including the C4 detonation. he can only have 2 grenades at a time so it may not be as hard to get around. he can also plant mines but boomerangs can just detonate them from far away. up close Snake will probably win. both his ftilt and utilt have broken range and his jabs have very good knockback so expect to get knocked around by those a lot. Snake can do things with his down throw such as tech chasing which comes in handy for him. his sliding mortar isn't the worst thing either since throwing a boomerang can knock him out of it, and if you're above him a simple nair can go through the mortar itself.

Now when facing Snake zair works pretty well against him since he is a very tall character. he's also VERY heavy so he can be juggled as well. this also means that he is pretty bad in the air. his moves are slow although pretty much all his aerials can deal a formidable amount of damage as well as send you flying. Snake being a heavy character will take a while to kill. he can easily kill you with utilt pretty easily. now being as heavy as he is you can juggle him easily and jab cancels work well on him too. offstage isn't that bad against Snake but expect to be edgeguarded by things such as the mortar.

zair, projectiles, and jabs will be the best options in this match. Snake being a heavy character makes him easy to juggle, easy to zair and easy to spam. but this also means he will take a while to kill especially if they have good DI. he can kill with his tilts which have broken range. if Snake gets too close, zair him. if he powershields it expect to be grabbed or get beat by tilts. if you shield his tilts punish with grabs or jabs whether you just do A,A,A for spacing or if you jab cancel and/or juggle him to build up damage. if you catch Snake recovering low then punish him because it's his fault for being stupid. if he C4 jumps then dair him if he flies high enough in the air. Snake is extremely vulnerable when he recovers so find a way to punish him if he gets too close to the stage.

It's in Snake's favor 55:45 or 60:40 at worst but still in his favor.

-KirinBlaze Input-
I definitely think this is even.

Link CAN out camp Snake. Snake cannot jump around the stage continuously dishing out projectiles like Link can. 2 of Snake's projectiles are stationary (The mine being SO easy to get rid of.), and he can only have two grenades out which are easily avoidable and take time to detonate. His FowardB is slow and leaves him open and easy to avoid. Link's Zair poses as a very big problem for Snake due to his height so Snake cannot effortlessly approach and Ftilt away unless he feels like power shielding it every singles time which is unrealestic. Arrows, Bombs, Zair, boomerang, these ALL stop Snake's best approach option, his DAC. RBS destorys his DAC, hell just even THROWING a bomb owns his DAC. Snake doesn't have much on Link offstage, mostly you can just expect time QCEH's from him, just toss a GaleRang or bomb and kick him back on. Link can KO Snake a lot better then some of the characters in this game. Jab cancels destroy him. Link can grab him out of his Ftilt so baiting him to Powershield through your projectiles into this is very good against him. Snake is garbage in the air and has a decent juggle game against him. Link can PUNISH the balls off of Snake if he slips up and recovers low, he eats Ftilts, Nairs, and Bairs and quickly racks up damage. Dair owns the common Snake players who AD when coming down to the stage or out of their cyhpers.

This match-up is 50:50 or 55:45 Snake at worst. I personally believe it's 50:50.

-DingDing Input-
Sry guys, but I'm gonna agree with KirinBlaze on this one. It's definitely a 50:50 matchup, IMO, mainly for reasons Kirin listed above.

As a side note: Snakes that try to DACUS link get owned...only if the link expects it and retaliates with a projectile or zair. From a LINKZONEload of personal experience, the absolute best way to fight a snake from a long range is with a wall of zairs and boomerangs. Both stop his grenades and his DACUS in their tracks, without having them explode. Bombs, on the other hand, may (and usually do) hurt you both if used on an approaching snake, and if snake throws a grenade in your face and you bomb it, then BAM 21 damage. D:

So, IMO, link's best weapons against snake are zair, jab cancel, smashes and rang. Snake's best weapons against link are grenade spam, unexpected DACUS, grabs and tilts. Overall, as long as Link is at a distance where he can effectively space with zair and rangs, he has the advantage. Only if the snake gets close and is on the ground does link have a major problem.

Granted, Snake with proper DI lives forever, but Link with proper DI can too (though not QUITE as long), but is actually a bit harder to gimp. As long as the Link knows the matchup well and can DI, it's definitely around a 50:50 matchup.

This was input over at AiB about the match-up.

I'm not going to take a side on the ratio while I look up more vids and info on this.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Snake lives a lot longer, it's just BLASPHEMY to insist they die at the same percents.

The only practical move Snake has that kills Link significantly earlier than Link kills Snake is bair, which is, coincidentally, difficult to land on Link.

 

[Valdens]

Practicality is the main factor, 18832577437545745 person

When Snake's utilt and ftilt come out MUCH faster than any of Link's KO'ing options, and kill at lower or close to the same percentages, and when Snake has many more tools for keeping himself safe from KO, how are they going to be living to similar percentages?


I hate to come into a board for a character I don't play and act like a ****, but you guys are basing this off of complete theorycraft. I can guarantee you any top player with disagree with the concensus you guys have arrived at, and for good reason.

What Link has beaten a good Snake? Ever? Even Deva consistently loses to Kamaji, a mediocre, unpower ranked Snake in Eastern Washington.

 

[orange/xd]

You think Link has an even matchup with Snake? Seriously guys?

 

[Zip.]

wow...just wow lol

 

[Eggz]

what idiots

 

[KBM]

what is this i dont even...

65:35 Snake

 

[Chip.]

This is probably Link's best higher tier match-up and IMO it's at least 60-40 still...

The only thing Link has going for him in this match-up is that he has a Zair and can slightly out-camp him. I guess Link doesn't die off the top very easy too so that can help.

Snake is a monster when he plays aggressively vs Link though. He can Power Sheild all of Link's projectiles with ease that leads into Ftilt or grab. If Snake gets the lead, he can basically grendade camp and sheild and Link has few options to kill with his slow smashes. Snake edgeguards Link really well too. Grenade or Usmash -> EdgeHug -> fall of Bair is always effective.

IMO, when I play good Snakes with Toon Link I think it's an even match-up and that's only because Toon Link has the agility to run away from Snake and effectively camp still. Something Link desperately lacks =/.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Practicality is the main factor, 18832577437545745 person

When Snake's utilt and ftilt come out MUCH faster than any of Link's KO'ing options, and kill at lower or close to the same percentages, and when Snake has many more tools for keeping himself safe from KO, how are they going to be living to similar percentages?


I hate to come into a board for a character I don't play and act like a ****, but you guys are basing this off of complete theorycraft. I can guarantee you any top player with disagree with the concensus you guys have arrived at, and for good reason.

What Link has beaten a good Snake? Ever? Even Deva consistently loses to Kamaji, a mediocre, unpower ranked Snake in Eastern Washington.

The funny thing is, this info is coming from mostly AiB, which most if not all of the top Link players left to.

The general conscientious is coming from high level Links.

I'm not saying that the Link players are right. I'm just pointing out that if this ratio is a problem, then either the high level Links are wrong or people aren't getting the match-up.

 

[Valdens]

High level Links according to who?

All three of the matchup explanations you posted seem to have come from pretty random or obscure players.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

High level Links according to who?

All three of the matchup explanations you posted seem to have come from pretty random or obscure players.

The Links over at AiB have a tier list of best Link to worst based on tournament placing, videos and skill, and knowledge applied to Link.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=66558

Kirin is S tier and he also runs the match-up thread over at AiB.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

ok guys. Deva is considered to be a top link correct? despite his slight inactivity?
If so.... this argument is valid i suppose.

My mediocre snake is now 3-0 in money matches vs Deva. Snake is better in the matchup now?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Links Advantages

* Link's projectiles make approaching very difficult for Snake at times and rack up damage fast.
* All projectiles stop his best approach, his DAC or Mortar Slide.
* Link's KO power can KO Snake earlier then some other characters. Dair does a very good job at KOing Snake.
* Zair is very good at keeping Snake away from you due to his size. It also sets up for a few combos. Zair>Dash Attack/DAC/Grab.
* Snake is very easy to juggle due to a very poor aerial game.
* Snake doesn't have a lot to gimp you offstage with.
* Link can arguably out camp Snake.
* Even Snake may have a hard time KOing Link due to his weight and excellent DI.
* Very easy to punish his mediocre recovery.

1. snake doesn't have to approach, and even then, links projectiles are easy to get around. bow doesn't do anything, boomerang brings them towards you after they spotdodge, so you're basically left with bombs and zair, covered later
2. almost every move in the game beats mortar slide, the main reason it's good is because it comes out so fast that most moves don't get out in time to stop it
3. you still don't ko him until really high %, and relying on dair is never good
4. snake can crawl under zair 100% of the time, as well as the bow and most bombs
5. with proper momentum tricks, snake is very hard to juggle, since he's always changing directions
6. "doesn't gimp you as much as everyone else" is not a bonus, he can still gimp you
7. link is limited to bombs, grenades are better than bombs. very few characters out camp snake, link is not one of them
8. utilt is guaranteed to ko link on a neutral stage at 135 iirc, add that to bair, c4, nair, ftilt and everything else snake has, and you aren't living long against a good snake
9. if he recovers high like an intelligent snake, what are you going to do? snake's recovery is punishable below the stage, and snake doesn't have to go below the stage unless he wants to C4 recover, which isn't punishable with good DI

 

[M4ge]

My. God.
Why are you people arguing with a dead board?
Let it die in peace.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

You guys are all ****tin' me.

C'mon.

The match is 60:40 Snake's favor at Link's highest hopes.
This ranges from 60:40 to 70:30 depending on player playstyles.

Any two people playing with Link and Snake who's ratio is 75:25 or 55:45 shows a lack of comptence of the player's ability to use the character.


/end.

 

[galekill]

Yeah, **** this place.

Edit: I also agree with Blubba. /lazy.

Edit again: AiB; the only Links are there.

 

[M4ge]

^ Now they're all gonna come to AiB and argue.
AWESOME DUDE!

 

[Uffe]

Neither one really has to approach, but Snake's got more options. His Arrows are in fact bound to hit. Grenades are better than Bombs, but Bombs blow up on contact, Grenades don't. If the Gale Boomerang can knock back or stop the Grenades, then Link's safe from that. If the Gale Boomerang brings Link's opponent towards him, let it happen. I'm sure there's a way to deal with the opponent. Chances are they'll block if they're being pulled towards Link, so that just makes it easy to grab his opponent. Another thing, Link doesn't need to stand in one spot and wait for his Gale Boomerang to return.

For Mortar Slide, I can see that being countered by Link's Arrows or Bombs. The Arrows aren't as useless as they were in Melee. You don't even need to charge them just to fire them far enough. As far as KOing goes, I do think that Link has some good KO options other than just his dair spike. Snake can last long against most characters. At least +200% because of DI and/or momentum canceling, which I'm sure every character has.

When it comes to Snake crawling, he's open. Any projectile from Link will do against that. Arrows of course don't work as effective but they can depending on how far Snake is. In order for Snake to gimp Link, he's going to have to get him below stage level, otherwise if Link is anywhere above stage level, he's making it back. He'll probably pull out a Bomb as a way of safely returning to the stage.

Snake's u-tilt is strong and 135% isn't exactly a bad percent to survive. Who knows, he may be able to last longer if he momentum cancels. Anyway, if the Link boards truly think this is a 55:45 ratio, let them. I don't see how this is hurting other people who don't main him and Link isn't exactly a bad character. He may have a ****ty recovery and bad match ups, but that's about it. It's not like he's the worst character in the game.

 

[Anonano]

*Matchup information*

This thread ain't no matchup thread anymore.

Its a WAR ZONE D:<

 

[galekill]

He may have a ****ty recovery and bad match ups, but that's about it. It's not like he's the worst character in the game.

Having ****ty match ups doesn't make you a bad character?

 

[Uffe]

Having ****ty match ups doesn't make you a bad character?

You missed my point. And I never said ****ty match ups.

 

[Sky`]

Wait... really?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This thread ain't no matchup thread anymore.

Its a WAR ZONE D:<

It's Game and Watch all over again.

edit: how the hell are people noticing this? Did someone link this to tactical or something?

 

[Uffe]

It's from here.
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=34180

 

[M4ge]

^I don't know. I don't care to know.
All I know is that people are arguing in a dead board. Good job to everyone involved.

 

[Sky`]

Valden's blog Ftw. X]

 

[Anonano]

It's Game and Watch all over again.

edit: how the hell are people noticing this? Did someone link this to tactical or something?

One person probably just thought how ******** this whole thing is and then posted about it to all his friends, and its snowballing from there.

 

[Uffe]

^I don't know. I don't care to know.
All I know is that people are arguing in a dead board. Good job to everyone involved.

Do a win a prize?

 

[M4ge]

Everyone reading this right now is an idiot for posting on a dead board. Yes. Including me for writing this. I don't know why I'm bumping a dead board.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

One person probably just thought how ******** this whole thing is and then posted about it to all his friends, and its snowballing from there.

Well ****.

I think might go get beer cancelled right now.

 

[Valdens]

lul

Did we win?

 

[Sky`]

^^ Victory! =DDDD
THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT ICE CLIMBERS VS GAW.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

^^ Victory! =DDDD
THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT ICE CLIMBERS VS GAW.

An evenish matchup if not slight GnW favor.

 

[Sky`]

I think it's in GaW's favor. But once I get that grab, really it's easy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lul

Did we win?

No.

I post the general conscientious only. What ever it is after I sort all of the bull**** from this thread is what I'll put on the chart.

Sky, don't derail the thread. I don't want this locked from spam.

 

[M4ge]

You guys arguing on this board is pathetic in the first place.

 

[galekill]

I love that some guy got butthurt and blogged about this.. Ohwell. Internet stupidity FTW, amirite?

 

[Sky`]

Michael Hey(9:23:02 PM): oh, so yeah
Michael Hey(9:23:33 PM): i lost to link and ganon
Sky`!(9:23:39 PM): your what?
Michael Hey(9:23:44 PM): both my ic and ddd
Sky`!(9:23:46 PM): I could understand if your IC's lost to link.
Sky`!(9:23:48 PM): But youyr DDD?!?
Sky`!(9:23:54 PM): Link is bad for ICs right?
Michael Hey(9:24:07 PM): deva's link is not at its limit at all
Michael Hey(9:24:14 PM): not even close
Sky`!(9:24:16 PM): oh?
Michael Hey(9:24:30 PM): a scrub link almost beat me too
Sky`!(9:24:48 PM): =/
Sky`!(9:24:50 PM): a scrub?
Michael Hey(9:24:53 PM): yup
Michael Hey(9:25:08 PM): well, there is kind of no scrub in japan
Michael Hey(9:25:19 PM): because everybody is atleast up to a certain level
Michael Hey(9:25:34 PM): but he is on the weaker side


I found this interesting.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Practicality is the main factor, 18832577437545745 person

You only got the first two digits right. Come on, you even quoted me. It's in your post.

When Snake's utilt and ftilt come out MUCH faster than any of Link's KO'ing options, and kill at lower or close to the same percentages, and when Snake has many more tools for keeping himself safe from KO, how are they going to be living to similar percentages?

Utilt kills at about the percentage Link kills, it's predictable, and it's punishable.
Link has a really good setup to kill Snake - Jab, jab, dsmash, it's basically a true combo (only at killing percents, conveniently).

I hate to come into a board for a character I don't play and act like a ****, but you guys are basing this off of complete theorycraft. I can guarantee you any top player with disagree with the concensus you guys have arrived at, and for good reason.

It's not theorycraft, as most of us have Snake experience as Link. If anything what you are saying is theorycraft, as I doubt any of you have much Snake experience as Link.

What Link has beaten a good Snake? Ever?

I heard somewhere that Finnz7 beat Ally at Genesis. I know for sure that Deva beat DSF.

Even Deva consistently loses to Kamaji, a mediocre, unpower ranked Snake in Eastern Washington.

Leepuff lost to Praxis consistently lol Peach vs G&W is 65:35 in Peach's favor. Seriously, this is how dumb you sound right now.