Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[-Mars-]

You taking the time to quote that three times makes me laugh.

 

[Camalange]

You taking the time to quote that three times makes me laugh.

It made me laugh xD

Dotcom might just be the biggest, loudest black guy I've ever met <3 rofl

 

[GreyClover]

You guys are so hilarious.

G&W goes 60/40 with Link. Link's non bucketable projectiles, u-air that goes through G&W's dair , zair that goes through his bair and jabs that space everything else G&W has give him enough of an edge so he doesnt get destroyed. But Link sucks, and G&W is top tier, so when it comes down to it, 60/40, G&W's favor.

Deva is correct. New character plz.

 

[Valdens]

Coming from a GnW that plays with Deva all the time, I'd say the matchup leans more toward 65:35. Deva has agreed that it's probably that with me in person. I'd CP what I said on the AiB matchup thread but the site's down. >_>

EDIT: Also, A2, you severely underestimate Link's kill potential vs GnW. I rarely live past 130-140ish against Deva, the problem for Link for the most part isn't getting GnW to high enough percent, it's landing the kill moves.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Never tried U-air before against key.

I'm hard pressed to call this match-up 35:65, but it's 5 points from 40:60 so no reason to fret over that.

 

[Valdens]

Uair does almost consistently beat key, it's hard to set up though due to how slow and weird the move comes out >_>

 

[Zane the pure]

I played against UTD-Zac not long ago, he seems to favor the D-throw to judgement tech-chase. The N-air gets annoying, but not as life-threatening as F-air. I also beat the key with U-tilt once (probably luck) But he won 2/3 because he got a 9 twice in a row. (I wasn't suprised as that happens everytime I fight G&W)The match goes to he that kills better, Link on the ground, but G&W in the air. Honestly IMO, Link would do better(Much Better) if he wasn't so gimp'able. I agree with the 60-40, Link could win If he were faster.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Uair does almost consistently beat key, it's hard to set up though due to how slow and weird the move comes out >_>

It's the same thing with trying to Usmash Key, it can work, but you have to time it with one of Link's sword swings or it won't stop the key.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think we're going to move on.

It's been nearly a week since I started the discussion on G&W and I'd like to keep moving. I'll get around to exports if people want to talk about it more.

So who's next?

Snake, Ice Climbers, Marth, Lucario

 

[Anonano]

Honestly, I'm quite interested in either the Snake or Marth matchups.

 

[GreyClover]

Snake would be good.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm kind of interested in Snake.

AiB says it's 55-45 or arguable 50:50.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario boards are discussing the Link vs. Lucario MU:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578
Squadala, We're off!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYwkKynbxqo

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I left my input, I hope other Link's do the same.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm starting the Snake discussion.

Snake is a gogo.

 

[Anonano]

When you put two of the campiest characters with tons of mindgames together, things get really interesting. Lots and lots of explosives!

Grenades and mines will be blown away/negated by the Gale boomerang's wind effect. However, thrown grenades cancel out the boomerang if they collide before the wind animation starts.

Link will be camping hard with bombs and arrows as well. Grenades cancel out arrows, and I can't remember what happens when bombs and grenades collide.

The camping game is really the largest and most important part of this matchup. If Link can outmindgame the Snake and avoid getting in range of the tilts, he's going to score the KO first; if Snake forces Link into tilt range, then Snake has pretty much guaranteed his victory.

The tilts are too scary for Link, particularly ftilt; that one builds up damage and has a knockback that Link really fears. Jab is also fairly scary, although it can be DIed and punished, or whiplashed (ftilt usually can't be whiplashed). Utilt will kill at far higher percents. A fresh utilt will kill Link around 150% (on smaller levels), and on taller levels you can expect to kill Link around 215-240% .
Ftilt and jabs are a much better killing tool. They'll kill/lead to gimps on Link at around 100-125%.

Link has slightly more trouble killing Snake, which is why this matchup is in Snake's favor. He'll kill Snake with fresh KO moves around 140-225%. Its a big KO range, but that's just how much lead Snake carries around in his pockets. Snake should always try to DI towards the corner, and if he does, he'll survive to the 225% side.

Both have edgeguarding tools against the other character; Snake's killing moves, ftilt and jabs, will naturally lead to gimps at higher percents. A Snake that is recovering high has to deal with Link's uair, dair, and boomerang, which covers most of the ways Snake can try to make it back to the stage. These moves will also lead to KOs. If a Snake is forced to recover low, he'll likely end up eating an fsmash or a boomerang, which will blow him back to the corner or force him to use his C4. If Snake has to use the C4, try to DI away from Link; he'll use dair to punish you.
C4 can be used to prevent a Link from guarding against a recovering Snake if it was placed properly before he was knocked away.

CPs can really be a determining factor in this matchup. Snake will trash Link on BF, both are fairly evenly matched on FD and SV, and Link has an advantage on RC (I know, its crazy right?). Snake: ban RC. Link: ban BF.

Really, both characters have spamming games that are well matched against each other (Snake's spamming game is way better than Link's against most other characters; only when matched against each other's spamming do they even out). However, Snake has a slightly easier time landing KO moves and has a better KO range. 55:45 Snake.

 

[ndayday]

and I can't remember what happens when bombs and grenades collide.

They cancel each other out resulting in a kaboom. Basically it goes;

'Nades cancel arrows,
'Nades blow up bombs,
You can say the above backwards,
Just say hi to your mom.

Yeah, I had to do that to complete the post. Hate the feeling when you just toss out 1 line facts and then it just looks like you didn't spend time on the post. :embarrass

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

They cancel each other out resulting in a kaboom. Basically it goes;

'Nades cancel arrows,
'Nades blow up bombs,
You can say the above backwards,
Just say hi to your mom.

Yeah, I had to do that to complete the post. Hate the feeling when you just toss out 1 line facts and then it just looks like you didn't spend time on the post. :embarrass

Ano didnt I post a "Hi Anos mom" in size 7 or something in the old, locked tier list discussion.

 

[Anonano]

They cancel each other out resulting in a kaboom. Basically it goes;

'Nades cancel arrows,
'Nades blow up bombs,

So nades cancel out all of Link's projectiles when they meet head on. Link should generally spam from jumping, and Snake should keep on the ground.

You can say the above backwards,
Just say hi to your mom.

Yeah, I had to do that to complete the post. Hate the feeling when you just toss out 1 line facts and then it just looks like you didn't spend time on the post.

...
Thank you for the information. I'll go do just that.
Yes, it does sum up your post quite nicely.

Ano didnt I post a "Hi Anos mom" in size 7 or something in the old, locked tier list discussion.

You were the first of many Lootic. Search "hi anos mom" and you'll be surprised at how many threads have people saying that... -_-

 

[ndayday]

Ano didnt I post a "Hi Anos mom" in size 7 or something in the old, locked tier list discussion.

Huh. I don't scour over old threads, so you weren't my inspiration.

I honestly just needed something to rhyme with bombs.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

Zair > Grenade Spam. :3

 

[GreyClover]

The match is no more than 55:45 perhaps 50:50 even.

Zair is a great tool to use against Snake not only because he's a tall character but it counters almost everthing you throw at us. As long as you're space correctly Snake cannot land an Ftilt, Utilt, nor a jab. Snake does not outcamp us, grenades are very easy to aviod since they take a certain about of time to blow up, the rest are slow and is easily punished. The DACUS is not much of a threat either, jabs, boomerang, and Zair all counters it when predicted and Nair cancels the mortar.

Snake's heavy weight makes him easy to juggle but also hard to kill. Even without DI Snakes can survive to the hundreds, with DI they're almost immune to dieing. Keep your smashes fresh and don't get frustrated if you can't just get the KO down. Link can DI good too though Snake can survive longer but that doesn't mean we can die early either.

Snake can't really gimp or edgeguard us with anything except a DACUS. If Snake is recovering from below **** him up, Nair, Bair, Dair heck just punish your *** off.

tl:dr

Spam Zair and jab cancels. If Snake gets in close Zair.

 

[Lawz.]

Snake can't really gimp or edgeguard us with anything except a DACUS. If Snake is recovering from below **** him up, Nair, Bair, Dair heck just punish your *** off.

Snake can definitely edgeguard Link. Once Link has used his double jump, Snake can easily bair you and send you flying from the stage. After that it'll be pretty difficult for Link to get back.

 

[Cloud9157]

This is assuming GS doesn't beat Snake's Bair? GS has good priority iirc.

As mentioned, this is a very campy matchup. If Snake wants to approach, Crawl isn't an option for him, as Link can still hit him with all 3 projectiles.

As to who actually forces the other to approach, it actually might be decent to see. Link needs to get in mid range roughly to maximize his camp game against Snake. When you get in range, all 3 projectiles can be used in unison, rather than just Arrows from afar. Snake needs to be careful around Bombs, as they will set off his Nades, possibly messing up his cooking and Shield Dropping.

Up close combat isn't too bad for Link I'd say. Ftilt works pretty well, though Snake may outrange you with his Ftilt. Snake is heavy, so grab him and setup strings. Zair is also very useful as also mentioned. It will outrange everything he has, including the evil Ftilt.

The only thing Snake will definitely find useful against Link is DACUS. Link is too slow to try and punish it, even if he shields it. Unless he doesn't space it correctly, which then you can get an Fsmash in on him, just shield it and keep picking at him with projectiles until he gets back up close.

Picking a big stage is highly recommended from my point of view. Snake controls the stage almost as well if Falco, if not even better. C4 and Mines will limit the space you are allowed to fight him. Final is a good stage, I would even consider Delfino and Halberd too, but Halberd is probably a better Snake stage overall, so your call there. Battlefield you may get away with, but DO NOT go to SV whatever you do.

If it wasn't for durability or KO power, I would most likely give Link the advantage here. Link normally has a few decent kill moves namely Fsmash, Ftilt, Utilt, Dair (lol) and Great Spin. But since Snake can live to insane percents against average or below KO moves, you're in trouble.

Best bet for killing him... God, none of them are even that good. =\ I would try getting him off the stage early and then maybe try to gimp him with Boomerang's wind effect, but he will almost always recover almost immidately though. If he does, free Dair thanks to Cypher, lol.

So basically, you do have to KO him. Next to no gimping, and any form of it is situational. Go Fsmash or Dsmash I'd say.

Now Snakw will have more trouble killing you than the rest of the cast. Link actually has some resistance, just DI UPWARDS. I don't know the exact percents, but maybe you'll live to about 130% from a fresh Utilt. I'd need to test it out.

Overall, it isn't really even. 55:45 Snake or possibly 6:4, but I like 55:45 better.

 

[Lawz.]

This is assuming GS doesn't beat Snake's Bair? GS has good priority iirc.

Snake WILL be hitting Link with a bair out of upb. When that happens Link will have no double jump and will be sent too far away to come back.

As mentioned, this is a very campy matchup. If Snake wants to approach, Crawl isn't an option for him, as Link can still hit him with all 3 projectiles.

Well, let's break this down quickly. I see where you're coming from about it being campy, but let's look at it this way.

-Link's camp game beats Snakes. Link has bombs, arrows, and boomerangs which make it hard for Snake to just toss 1 or 2 grenades, especially since all of Link's projectiles either beat out or clank with them. But heres the thing...

Snake doesn't need to camp against Link. If the Snake plays smart and just walks forward, shield projectiles, and ftilts OoS, it becomes much harder for Link. So although Link can camp Snake to a degree, it won't be a very campy match due to Snake's tilt game.

As to who actually forces the other to approach, it actually might be decent to see. Link needs to get in mid range roughly to maximize his camp game against Snake. When you get in range, all 3 projectiles can be used in unison, rather than just Arrows from afar. Snake needs to be careful around Bombs, as they will set off his Nades, possibly messing up his cooking and Shield Dropping.

For the most part this is true.

Up close combat isn't too bad for Link I'd say. Ftilt works pretty well, though Snake may outrange you with his Ftilt. Snake is heavy, so grab him and setup strings. Zair is also very useful as also mentioned. It will outrange everything he has, including the evil Ftilt.

I honestly can't believe you would even say this at all without a second thought. Snake's ftilt is absolutely broken. It easily outranges just about every option Link has up close except maybe zair. You obviously have no idea about Snake's ftilt range.....or range in general. Link does NOT do well up close against Snake which is why this is still Snake's favor.

The only thing Snake will definitely find useful against Link is DACUS. Link is too slow to try and punish it, even if he shields it. Unless he doesn't space it correctly, which then you can get an Fsmash in on him, just shield it and keep picking at him with projectiles until he gets back up close.

Snake shouldn't be using DACUS that often mainly because Link can knock him out of it with many things, one being a simple boomerang. Like I said before Snake's best option in this match should be shielding projectiles and playing up close.

Picking a big stage is highly recommended from my point of view. Snake controls the stage almost as well if Falco, if not even better. C4 and Mines will limit the space you are allowed to fight him. Final is a good stage, I would even consider Delfino and Halberd too, but Halberd is probably a better Snake stage overall, so your call there. Battlefield you may get away with, but DO NOT go to SV whatever you do.

Delfino is bad for Link, and Snake does much better on Halberd than Link does. I would just go FD. BF isn't good either because it leaves Link little breathing room and coupled with nades, mines, and C4 makes it even harder for Link.

If it wasn't for durability or KO power, I would most likely give Link the advantage here. Link normally has a few decent kill moves namely Fsmash, Ftilt, Utilt, Dair (lol) and Great Spin. But since Snake can live to insane percents against average or below KO moves, you're in trouble.

Snake would pretty much suck without those things. But Snake is definitely going to outlive you AND KO you first which is another reason why it is Snake's favor.

Best bet for killing him... God, none of them are even that good. =\ I would try getting him off the stage early and then maybe try to gimp him with Boomerang's wind effect, but he will almost always recover almost immidately though. If he does, free Dair thanks to Cypher, lol.

So basically, you do have to KO him. Next to no gimping, and any form of it is situational. Go Fsmash or Dsmash I'd say.

You won't be gimping Snake, ESPECIALLY with the gale effect. That doesn't even happen in a real match. Fsmash, dsmash, and dair are what should be used to kill.

Now Snakw will have more trouble killing you than the rest of the cast. Link actually has some resistance, just DI UPWARDS. I don't know the exact percents, but maybe you'll live to about 130% from a fresh Utilt. I'd need to test it out.

Overall, it isn't really even. 55:45 Snake or possibly 6:4, but I like 55:45 better.

If you DI completely upward......you will die easily. I think what you are trying to say is with Link's weight along with good DI and his momentum cancel he can live longer than most. BUT DIing upward wouldn't help because that would make you die earlier.

 

[Cloud9157]

Snake WILL be hitting Link with a bair out of upb. When that happens Link will have no double jump and will be sent too far away to come back.



Well, let's break this down quickly. I see where you're coming from about it being campy, but let's look at it this way.

-Link's camp game beats Snakes. Link has bombs, arrows, and boomerangs which make it hard for Snake to just toss 1 or 2 grenades, especially since all of Link's projectiles either beat out or clank with them. But heres the thing...

Snake doesn't need to camp against Link. If the Snake plays smart and just walks forward, shield projectiles, and ftilts OoS, it becomes much harder for Link. So although Link can camp Snake to a degree, it won't be a very campy match due to Snake's tilt game.



For the most part this is true.



I honestly can't believe you would even say this at all without a second thought. Snake's ftilt is absolutely broken. It easily outranges just about every option Link has up close except maybe zair. You obviously have no idea about Snake's ftilt range.....or range in general. Link does NOT do well up close against Snake which is why this is still Snake's favor.



Snake shouldn't be using DACUS that often mainly because Link can knock him out of it with many things, one being a simple boomerang. Like I said before Snake's best option in this match should be shielding projectiles and playing up close.



Delfino is bad for Link, and Snake does much better on Halberd than Link does. I would just go FD. BF isn't good either because it leaves Link little breathing room and coupled with nades, mines, and C4 makes it even harder for Link.



Snake would pretty much suck without those things. But Snake is definitely going to outlive you AND KO you first which is another reason why it is Snake's favor.



You won't be gimping Snake, ESPECIALLY with the gale effect. That doesn't even happen in a real match. Fsmash, dsmash, and dair are what should be used to kill.




If you DI completely upward......you will die easily. I think what you are trying to say is with Link's weight along with good DI and his momentum cancel he can live longer than most. BUT DIing upward wouldn't help because that would make you die earlier.

I've found most Snakes are far too confident in their camping skills usually. Few times they've taken 50%+ from trying to outcamp me before they attempt an approach. Guess it will depend on if they know they can camp you or not.

No, now that I re-read what I typed, you're right. Ftilt will outrange everything but Zair. But grabs are still good, correct? No better way to rack up damage on him than to do it in the air.

If you can see the DACUS coming, then definitely boomerang him. Just seems they use it at just the right range to catch their opponents off guard though.

As for stages, what do you do if they ban FD? I mean, everywhere else is pretty small, but perhaps Siege? It would pretty much be even because I would think Snake gets the first part, even on the second part, and then you win on the third. Everywhere else is like, a perfect fit for Snake. =\ I only suggested Delfino because of the size it has for decent parts of the stage, but I understand if you don't think it's a good pick.

I know Gale gimping won't be too useful, but that's why I put situational. Dair still sounds like a free hit when he is using Cypher from below though.

Link needs all the horizontal gain he can get, so I suppose whatever will get you good horizontal range.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link should be able to out camp Snake.

Snakes grenades will either clash with ours or will explode on contact. Zair can safely out range anything Snake can try on us.

Snake will **** us up close. His broken tilts have WTF range on them with great KO power.

Don't worry about DACUS, it comes out fast which is the main thing the move has going for it. It still has no priority on the ground, Link can hit him out of it with virtually anything.

Be patient, just camp until you see a good opening for a KO.

No, now that I re-read what I typed, you're right. Ftilt will outrange everything but Zair. But grabs are still good, correct? No better way to rack up damage on him than to do it in the air.

Grabs can be a good way to get Snake in the air, however, we need to consider the risks of missing the grab.

Snakes tilts are safe, he can use a Ftilt and retreat without much worry. I'm pretty sure
Snake can avoid a shield grab if he spaces correctly.

Snake can be juggled like Link, but I don't think grab is a good way of doing it.

As for stages, what do you do if they ban FD? I mean, everywhere else is pretty small, but perhaps Siege? It would pretty much be even because I would think Snake gets the first part, even on the second part, and then you win on the third. Everywhere else is like, a perfect fit for Snake. =\ I only suggested Delfino because of the size it has for decent parts of the stage, but I understand if you don't think it's a good pick.

I don't like Siege either.

Ano mentioned Rainbow Cruise, I'm not entirely confident on that stage, it is from the moving around that messes up Snake more than it screws with Link?

FD seems to benefit Link more than Snake,More movements and less stage control from Snake with platforms.

Norfair isn't that good in this MU, it stil helps Link, but Snake gets other benefits, more platforms, easier killing, etc.

I'll agree on a 55:45 Snake, part of me wants to say 50:50, but Snake's ability to live longer than Link and kill earlier just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[AvoiD]

Falco boards discussin' Link matchup.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247465

Input appreciated.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Falco boards discussin' Link matchup.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247465

Input appreciated.

I advice others to participate.

So it appears we've been on Snake for too long, we covered him quite well so I think we can move on.

55:45 Snake correct?

Now for your pick,

Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Marth, Lucario

I've heard a lot of want to discuss Marth recently.

 

[Valdens]

lol, how can you guys think this is 55:45

Do you know about Deva vs Ally? =P

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lol, how can you guys think this is 55:45

Do you know about Deva vs Ally? =P

Can't find the vid on youtube.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Can't find the vid on youtube.

Genesis, Ally 3 stocks Deva first game on FD I believe, then 2 stocks him on Norfair, the matchup is complete **** IMO.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link can't beat Snake if he does it right <_<

 

[Anonano]

I say Lucario or Ganondorf.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh that.

Is there another reason other than Deva vs Ally on why the match-up should be worse?

 

[Lawz.]

Genesis, Ally 3 stocks Deva first game on FD I believe, then 2 stocks him on Norfair, the matchup is complete **** IMO.

Honestly I'd have to agree. Kirin had me convinced that it was almost even. and me being as slow as I am I started to realize that it isn't at all >_>

I look at my match up input in the other match up thread and I feel like a complete *******.

 

[Valdens]

Not even being a Link or Snake main, I'd like to argue the 55:45

It's absolutely a much worse matchup. Snake just has a lot more tools for dealing with Link than vice versa.

Vex has his numbers right btw

 

[PK-ow!]

When your sword's tilts are going to get neutralized by a bastage's Jab, you know you're ****ed.

Sorry. This is not 55:45. This isn't even 60:40. Snake just beats Link. More power, more weight, way better recovery, a spike, better bombs, and somehow more god**** range, too.

Arrows are worthless and Boomerang only gives you combos at 0.

GG, Link. GG.


This is for the matchup ratio, though. It's quite winnable against people who aren't Ally.

 

[18.15.2.15x12.9.14.11]

When your sword's tilts are going to get neutralized by a bastage's Jab, you know you're ****ed.

Most tilts are "neutralized" by jabs, because jabs are faster than tilts.

Sorry. This is not 55:45. This isn't even 60:40. Snake just beats Link. More power, more weight, way better recovery, a spike, better bombs, and somehow more god**** range, too.

Link's momentum cancel >>>> Snake's. They both survive to about the same percentage.
Snake fails at gimping Link, so recovery doesn't really factor in.

Arrows are worthless and Boomerang only gives you combos at 0.

Boomerang combos? lol what are you smoking

 

[Valdens]

Snake lives a lot longer, it's just BLASPHEMY to insist they die at the same percents.

Snake has much more reliable and early options for killing.

Snake has a MUCH better recovery.

Grenades are MUCH better than bombs.

Snake excels on all of Link's counterpicks and has many Link are bad at.


Seriously, are the Link mains THIS insane?

65:35, cmon guys..