Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
we're dittoing, not for the title because i don't care about that but because i need to **** your ***.
-
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Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
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KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
I will destroy you.
<3
<3
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
nah i don't lose to bad players.
KirinBlaze
Smash Lord
Ohohohoho. Quite the comedian aren't we?
SpaghettiWeegee
Smash Apprentice
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- Feb 12, 2010
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- 91
/spam
Serously guys, get back on topic.
Serously guys, get back on topic.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
indeed. i should make a living out of it
well if there's anything else that needs to be said then i'll gladly help with the input. other than that i think everyone has put all the info we need for the match-up.
Purple
Hi guys!
We got all we needed, we just need to summarize.
milesg2g
Smash Champion
I like halberd as well
can some1 tell me why Ness wouldn't like this stage?
Or better yet.
why would it be in Links Favor
can some1 tell me why Ness wouldn't like this stage?
Or better yet.
why would it be in Links Favor
Arcade
Smash Ace
Yes, the head has low-ish priority, you can cancel it with a lot of things. However good Ness's loop it around to hit you with the invincible tail and combo into the head (if you airdodge, the head is right there to hit you out of it, so don't airdodge it without fastfalling). I know arrows, boomerang, nair cancels it at least.
As for the grab-release dsmash thing. I don't think it'd be that reliable a way to kill Ness. Link's grab is kinda risky, and Ness isn't going to be spending any time on the ground unless he's trying to grab you. Dsmash just by itself might be a better choice since it's 4 frames and you aren't getting 24% from a tipper bat if you miss.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Can we discuss the PT matchup next? I got uber ***** last time I played one 
Every attack Link has can cancel most low priority range attacks. The hit bubbles have to connect without Link being hit.
Dsmash starts on frame 6 if it's completely uncharged.
PT=Pokemon Trainer next? 'Sounds good.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
I was trying to just punch my brother's ness with this tactic the other day, and he managed to dodge immediately when he got out of the grab. Maybe, I shouldn't try to punch him during the jab? I was spamming c-stick down, so he was able to dodge, however, I hit him with it the next try, so it was good to do... I didn't charge the smash or anything, and he definitely dodged it, so maybe you have to let him break out then hit him, rather than punching him.
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
Interesting matchup. It depends on the skill level of both players. However compared to what Ive seen I have to say the "average" Ness Players would be the victor of the "average" link player. I believe that Link can use projectiles and D air to keep his distance. I also think that he should use his shield more than just "dodging" since he could immediately engage in a grab and throw and rack up some damage with with the boomerang and bombs midrange as well as do some "tricks" (release and grab the bomb in midair, airdodge the zair, for wii remote/ nunchuck with shake smash down special along with hold A then release B and forward shake smash/ GCC hold B and A the forward C stick, galegarding, bomb slide etc etc) with many moves I think Link can hold his grown for the most part. Disadvantage is recover for link, a little for Ness if time the Z air edgeguarding
Toby.
Smash Master
Best way to learn the matchup is to money match me at Thriller!Can we discuss the PT matchup next? I got uber ***** last time I played one
No one knows anything about pokemon trainer.
I've only used PT a couple times since we last played so I don't think you should worry about it much
A note for any match involving small characters:
Link's Zair is the only Zair that hits twice; Samus and TLink's hit once for 4% and Lucas' has no attack.
The tip (claw in Link's case) of Zair is the attack point. Because Link's second hit we can connect with the chain when it's extended too (4% 1st hit, 6% 2nd). It's hard to time but Link can Zair small ducking characters with the first or second and landing cancel into jabs or other moves. Zair also has great priority and cancels most low-mid priority range attacks (except lasers and piercing moves). Link can Zair the full length through Ness's ground PKFire and hit Ness using the second hit for both.
I short hop>Air dodge>Zair to help time it low. Every Link should know how to land a Zair at it's farthest reach so practice in training if you, the player, need to.
PS
Tether ledge grab length, grab length and Zair length have no direct relation. Link has the second longest Zair and one of the worst tether ranges.
Link's Zair is the only Zair that hits twice; Samus and TLink's hit once for 4% and Lucas' has no attack.
The tip (claw in Link's case) of Zair is the attack point. Because Link's second hit we can connect with the chain when it's extended too (4% 1st hit, 6% 2nd). It's hard to time but Link can Zair small ducking characters with the first or second and landing cancel into jabs or other moves. Zair also has great priority and cancels most low-mid priority range attacks (except lasers and piercing moves). Link can Zair the full length through Ness's ground PKFire and hit Ness using the second hit for both.
I short hop>Air dodge>Zair to help time it low. Every Link should know how to land a Zair at it's farthest reach so practice in training if you, the player, need to.
PS
Tether ledge grab length, grab length and Zair length have no direct relation. Link has the second longest Zair and one of the worst tether ranges.
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
@ MES!
For alot of small characters you really need to time his Dair carefully which you should add as well as you need to need to time how close you are to the ground as you do the dair because the shorter the character the shorter the distance to the ground. Its better to rack up some damage with his projectiles (bombs and gale boomerang) to lift them of the ground then take advantage there to do the Zair them. I also find it better if you extend the dair/clawshots full distance since the end of the claw is closest to downwards. But the key factor that he has against many characters large and small is range. (And yes airdodge then Zair does work)
For alot of small characters you really need to time his Dair carefully which you should add as well as you need to need to time how close you are to the ground as you do the dair because the shorter the character the shorter the distance to the ground. Its better to rack up some damage with his projectiles (bombs and gale boomerang) to lift them of the ground then take advantage there to do the Zair them. I also find it better if you extend the dair/clawshots full distance since the end of the claw is closest to downwards. But the key factor that he has against many characters large and small is range. (And yes airdodge then Zair does work)
Dair's timing is more about making it auto cancel before landing or making it safe from punishment. Any character can roll dodge and punish Dair so it's a better punisher than direct attack. The first attack frame of Dair has more power than the others which has to be used when Link is overlapping the opponent.
Projectiles are preferable until the opponent closes in, then Zair speed, priority and landing canceling if better.
Zair is best to landing cancel vs small characters at is full reach. The claw when fast falled is the highest attack point, normal fall speed it stays level with the chain. The nice thing about it attacking twice is the claw can miss and the chain still has a second hit- Samus' won't hit except at the tip.
(6 Zair doesn't include the second hit bubble set for fast falling which it should.)
('Sorry for going off topic)
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
I already am aware of that (look at the end of my last post). However a problem with doing it full reach along with doing an air dodge with a short hop is that the Dair does not reach its full length and chances are you most likely are going to hit the ground before it reaches its length on a short hop. For a short character that can ensure a enough time to grab or enough time before you perform another Z air to cover that same range you loss because you hit the ground .Z air is more about keeping your distance or racking damage to perform a combo, distance for efficient use of a projectile, just to rack up damage. A Z-air with a DACUS, Grab, dash attack, projectile/special, another Z air, etc is an example of such. Now if you were saying that he did a midjump and help increase his falling speed then with a air dodge than Zair is much more sufficient in such of a small character
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
Thanks my fault
, well for D air I wouldnt recommend it as your "main" choice for small characters at all since its easily predictable. In combination with a footstool jump and bombs or throws when there damage ratio is to your advantage then it would be best for the occasion. I state that because many link users Ive notice abuse D air with a passion ( the new link mains especially)
milesg2g
Smash Champion
Zairs a problem for Ness in most cases.
When playing TL you can basically Nair all of the projectiles but if the zair comes it can throw things off. But w/ Link. His projectiles don't come @ that much speed. I don't see how Link can keep Ness on his feet as much.
When playing TL you can basically Nair all of the projectiles but if the zair comes it can throw things off. But w/ Link. His projectiles don't come @ that much speed. I don't see how Link can keep Ness on his feet as much.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Anything else wanted to be said before we move on to PT?
Better reach, power and priority than TL. Link's ground attacks are faster than TL's too.
Mixing 3 projectiles and Zair means great spamming once Link gets started. Eventually a good player of any character will force Link to resort to his weak close combat. Link's range and anti-range game is great but the punishment he receives for loosing control really hurts.
Pokemon Trainer:
Squirtle's a pain. If you footstool Squirt's fowardB he will be flipped on his back and helpless for a while.
More later...
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
Thats true but technically I have to say in Close Quarters even though links standard attacks are a bit slower then most, they provide much more power, knock back, and damage (I dont recommend to confuse this with stating that his CQC/CQB is more reliant then his projectiles)
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
My old roommate plays the Pokeymanz Trainer a good bit, and although he's not top notch, he does have a pretty solid PT. So there are a few things I can try to help with.
For Pokeymanz Trainer:
Squirtle is really hard to deal with. He's small and maneuverable (kinda like Wario) and fast enough to weave in and out. If Squirtle can get established and get momentum going, it's really hard for Link to get anything going or retaliate, since he's so fast and Link is so slow up close. Zair is really hard to pull off. Squirtle can edgeguard Link pretty well too.
Link is very strong and Squirtle dies fairly early, though, although landing a killing move can be difficult. With good DI, Link can live pretty long too, although you need to watch out for gimps (although you can say that about almost every opponent you'll face). I wouldn't rely on jumping on Squirtle's head during his Bforward; good PT's won't put themselves in a position where it's likely to happen. Squirtle isn't a one-sided match, but Link will have to work incredibly hard and clearly outplay him to win.
Ivysaur is pretty awful overall (says a guy who mains Link, haha). He's good at killing upwards and Link is hard to kill upwards, but still be careful, and don't expect to live past 130% on Usmash or Uair even with DI and momentum cancelling. Bullet seed can be DI'd up and away out of (I've taken as little as 8% before getting out of it before). Ivysaur has trouble approaching Link, and his Razor leaf isn't great (Link can Hylian Shield it, but that's fairly situational). He has trouble edgeguarding Link, and his B up is easy to edgeguard with the Clawshot(hooray, a match where Link has the better edge game!). I'd say it's slightly in Link's favor, but don't get complacent or you'll get a nasty shock. Ivysaur can kill Link surprisingly quickly, even without gimping him.
Charizard is kinda odd to fight. He's going to be getting in your face and grabbing a lot. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE HIS SPEED; Charizard is faster than Link. Projectiles, especially Zair, work really well because he's so big. He's heavy and harder to kill. Keeping Charizard just outside attacking range is going to be key. As long as Link can space well, he's got a chance at winning, but don't let Charizard force you off the edge or get in your personal space, or you will pay for it. Charizard has two jumps and super armor through his B up, so dair edgeguarding can be risky (i'm pretty sure he takes damage and then knocks you sky high), and lets him fly around to catch you when you're off the edge. Not like it takes much to gimp Link anyway, but fair is death if he hits you off the edge, and he can spike you with dair. Also watch Fire Breath off the edge. I'd put it just in Charizard's favor, but it's pretty close to even.
Collectively, I'd say it's in PT's favor, but it's not unwinnable for Link.
Hope this helps. Again, my friend isn't a top player (and neither am I), but we're both pretty good. This still might not be accurate at top levels of play, though.
For Pokeymanz Trainer:
Squirtle is really hard to deal with. He's small and maneuverable (kinda like Wario) and fast enough to weave in and out. If Squirtle can get established and get momentum going, it's really hard for Link to get anything going or retaliate, since he's so fast and Link is so slow up close. Zair is really hard to pull off. Squirtle can edgeguard Link pretty well too.
Link is very strong and Squirtle dies fairly early, though, although landing a killing move can be difficult. With good DI, Link can live pretty long too, although you need to watch out for gimps (although you can say that about almost every opponent you'll face). I wouldn't rely on jumping on Squirtle's head during his Bforward; good PT's won't put themselves in a position where it's likely to happen. Squirtle isn't a one-sided match, but Link will have to work incredibly hard and clearly outplay him to win.
Ivysaur is pretty awful overall (says a guy who mains Link, haha). He's good at killing upwards and Link is hard to kill upwards, but still be careful, and don't expect to live past 130% on Usmash or Uair even with DI and momentum cancelling. Bullet seed can be DI'd up and away out of (I've taken as little as 8% before getting out of it before). Ivysaur has trouble approaching Link, and his Razor leaf isn't great (Link can Hylian Shield it, but that's fairly situational). He has trouble edgeguarding Link, and his B up is easy to edgeguard with the Clawshot(hooray, a match where Link has the better edge game!). I'd say it's slightly in Link's favor, but don't get complacent or you'll get a nasty shock. Ivysaur can kill Link surprisingly quickly, even without gimping him.
Charizard is kinda odd to fight. He's going to be getting in your face and grabbing a lot. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE HIS SPEED; Charizard is faster than Link. Projectiles, especially Zair, work really well because he's so big. He's heavy and harder to kill. Keeping Charizard just outside attacking range is going to be key. As long as Link can space well, he's got a chance at winning, but don't let Charizard force you off the edge or get in your personal space, or you will pay for it. Charizard has two jumps and super armor through his B up, so dair edgeguarding can be risky (i'm pretty sure he takes damage and then knocks you sky high), and lets him fly around to catch you when you're off the edge. Not like it takes much to gimp Link anyway, but fair is death if he hits you off the edge, and he can spike you with dair. Also watch Fire Breath off the edge. I'd put it just in Charizard's favor, but it's pretty close to even.
Collectively, I'd say it's in PT's favor, but it's not unwinnable for Link.
Hope this helps. Again, my friend isn't a top player (and neither am I), but we're both pretty good. This still might not be accurate at top levels of play, though.
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
I agree on the part about Squirtle and Zair. It takes timing to hit Squirtle with the Z air due to his small stature. Good description and comparison between Link and PT. Yes PT has a slight advantage because of the fact that PT has 3 characters each with its owns advantages to display on the field. However like you said its not unwinnable for link because of his distance and range.
What do these stand for?
Pokemon Trainers sometimes will swap to better pokemon after launching you. Ivysaur will be used least.
Squirtle's FSmash has armor frames and his Usmash has good horizontal reach. Jabs, Utilt, and Nair are good for getting him out of your face.
Ivysaur only has a tether upB with slight upward boost, if Link or the clawshot is grabbing the edge Ivy will miss it and die- even if Link's hurt. Ivy has great disjointed reach and powerful upward attacks. Never drop down on Ivy; use bombs to cover you when returning down to the stage.
Charazard can mess up Link's Zair spacing with rocksmash and firebreath. Char's upB armor frames are only for the first half of the move, I think.
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
Close
Quarters
Combat
Close
Quarters
Battle
Sorry I incorporate some military abbreviations and military meanings in what I talk about. Maybe I should tone it down a bit.
SpaghettiWeegee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2010
- Messages
- 91
Ok, Huggles covered quite a bit of the matchup, so I don't have much to add. Just a few notes.
Squirtle has an average recovery at best, however, he's hard to edgeguard. Resort to gimping using Link's projectiles.
Link has a slightly better gimp game than Squirtle, believe it or not.
(^I... think....)
Dair can help you SO MUCH when trying to KO little Squirty. I think it's your best bet when trying to KO in this MU.
F and Utilt are also useful.
Spacing will naturally be difficult with Squirtle. Only use Zair when you are being approached in the air.
Movin' on.
Ivysaur has the best KOing potential of any of PT's Pokemanz.
(I...think...)
He's easy to KO, space, spam, gimp, and edgeguard. Just stay away from his kill moves and he'll be a sinch.
Next.
Charizard is quite easy to spam. Abuse yours.
Charizard is hard to KO, however, if you must do so, I suggest Fsmash or Dair.
Zair is surprizingally effective on him (so long as he doesn't cancel it with a Rock Smash). It will help your distancing game a good deal.
The fastest Link player can move faster than the fastest Charizard player. Charizard can move fast, but he's not faster than Link, at least, not overall. See, he can dash faster, but his attacks are laggier (on average) and his airgame is SO ZETTA SLOW!!! Take advantage of it.
(Disclaimer: All conclusions have been derived from my personal observations. The accuracy of these observations is not guaranteed. If you wish to present frame data or the like to make these conclusions more accurate, please do so in a polite and civil manner.)
Link and Charizard's MU is an even 50:50, at least, in my opinion.
Overall, I think that Link's matchup with PT is even overall. 50:50/55:45 Link.
Squirtle has an average recovery at best, however, he's hard to edgeguard. Resort to gimping using Link's projectiles.
Link has a slightly better gimp game than Squirtle, believe it or not.
(^I... think....)
Dair can help you SO MUCH when trying to KO little Squirty. I think it's your best bet when trying to KO in this MU.
F and Utilt are also useful.
Spacing will naturally be difficult with Squirtle. Only use Zair when you are being approached in the air.
Movin' on.
Ivysaur has the best KOing potential of any of PT's Pokemanz.
(I...think...)
He's easy to KO, space, spam, gimp, and edgeguard. Just stay away from his kill moves and he'll be a sinch.
Next.
Charizard is quite easy to spam. Abuse yours.
Charizard is hard to KO, however, if you must do so, I suggest Fsmash or Dair.
Zair is surprizingally effective on him (so long as he doesn't cancel it with a Rock Smash). It will help your distancing game a good deal.
The fastest Link player can move faster than the fastest Charizard player. Charizard can move fast, but he's not faster than Link, at least, not overall. See, he can dash faster, but his attacks are laggier (on average) and his airgame is SO ZETTA SLOW!!! Take advantage of it.
(Disclaimer: All conclusions have been derived from my personal observations. The accuracy of these observations is not guaranteed. If you wish to present frame data or the like to make these conclusions more accurate, please do so in a polite and civil manner.)
Link and Charizard's MU is an even 50:50, at least, in my opinion.
Overall, I think that Link's matchup with PT is even overall. 50:50/55:45 Link.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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I sent an invite to the PT boards, so have at it.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
All three of them have a good grab game, each with kill options of "some sort" and each with good ways to grab. Charizard's range for his standing is right under D3's, as in the 2nd best range. Ivysaur has a pivot grab that I just like, and Squirtle's is just fun.
Squirtle has very good special movement options on the ground sense I didn't see it pointed out so far (think Snake's DACUS range and speed somewhat and several moves that he can use with it, and grabs are fun).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVACbTqdmbY
Fsmash isn't the only move Squirtle has with special frames, I mean his shell isn't just for looks people. The fatigue value for him is also a blessing and a curse somewhat unlike the other two, he has more less kill options than the other two IMO (which I guess isn't saying much, I mean do worry about Dthrow), but it helps him link moves together when it is in effect to a point, except for the fact that moves give less hitstun to make up for that so keep that in mind.
The last thing I'll say is that because of his jab coming out on frame 1, and your shield and such comes out on frame 2. Jab release stuff is fun because of that (however do note that his jab does have an opening in it that you can shield for on the ground).
Ivysaur's Uspecial has a strong spot that can KO, in fact Ivysaur is built well for stopping aerial approaches in general if that matters with Link. Razor leaf I guess is beat by Link's stuff, but do note that it rips through most projectiles has a good wavebounce and can make a set up to a grab because the projectile is still moving for 20 frames after Ivy's personal cool down ends. Bullet seed is a punishment tool that comes out on frame 4 or so and makes for a better Dsmash with Ivy's case.
Ivysaur's tether has some fun traits with it other than being pretty much the worse recovery move in the game, angle wise it has the largest reach from above the ledge (around Ivysaur's full hop), and the move adds some fun gimp options.
Ivysaur's has some very good aerials of course, Bair, Nair, and Uair have the most shine IMO, but all of them have some neat traits (Fair is a KO move and Dair works well with the tether). Nair has a spike on it, Bair is spacing good, and Uair is a mini powered Usmash but with more speed, less knockback, and fun to space into some of Ivysaur's ground KO moves.
Her tilts are just awesome, I hope I don't have to say why. Also the Dash attack is a kill move that comes on frame 4.
Charizard's air moves have some fun traits about them, Fair is a better version of Bowser's Bair just in case you guys wanted a comparison, Dair's hit box is very large and disjointed to the point where he can smack a standing grounded Kirby while doing a full hop with it, Bair kills and comes out on frame 7 or so, in fact besides Dair, his slowest starting air for a hit is frame 9 (fair).
Charizard's rock smash has the rock coming out on frame 3 (his jab comes out on frame 4 by comparison), but Charizard doesn't smack the rock himself for another 20+ frames. Said thing kills, racks damage and so on.
To lazy to chat more ATM.
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOkF2HuSaak
PT is a sitting duck for 20+ frames according to the frame data without that being a factor.
Squirtle has very good special movement options on the ground sense I didn't see it pointed out so far (think Snake's DACUS range and speed somewhat and several moves that he can use with it, and grabs are fun).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVACbTqdmbY
Fsmash isn't the only move Squirtle has with special frames, I mean his shell isn't just for looks people. The fatigue value for him is also a blessing and a curse somewhat unlike the other two, he has more less kill options than the other two IMO (which I guess isn't saying much, I mean do worry about Dthrow), but it helps him link moves together when it is in effect to a point, except for the fact that moves give less hitstun to make up for that so keep that in mind.
The last thing I'll say is that because of his jab coming out on frame 1, and your shield and such comes out on frame 2. Jab release stuff is fun because of that (however do note that his jab does have an opening in it that you can shield for on the ground).
Ivysaur's Uspecial has a strong spot that can KO, in fact Ivysaur is built well for stopping aerial approaches in general if that matters with Link. Razor leaf I guess is beat by Link's stuff, but do note that it rips through most projectiles has a good wavebounce and can make a set up to a grab because the projectile is still moving for 20 frames after Ivy's personal cool down ends. Bullet seed is a punishment tool that comes out on frame 4 or so and makes for a better Dsmash with Ivy's case.
Ivysaur's tether has some fun traits with it other than being pretty much the worse recovery move in the game, angle wise it has the largest reach from above the ledge (around Ivysaur's full hop), and the move adds some fun gimp options.
Ivysaur's has some very good aerials of course, Bair, Nair, and Uair have the most shine IMO, but all of them have some neat traits (Fair is a KO move and Dair works well with the tether). Nair has a spike on it, Bair is spacing good, and Uair is a mini powered Usmash but with more speed, less knockback, and fun to space into some of Ivysaur's ground KO moves.
Her tilts are just awesome, I hope I don't have to say why. Also the Dash attack is a kill move that comes on frame 4.
Charizard's air moves have some fun traits about them, Fair is a better version of Bowser's Bair just in case you guys wanted a comparison, Dair's hit box is very large and disjointed to the point where he can smack a standing grounded Kirby while doing a full hop with it, Bair kills and comes out on frame 7 or so, in fact besides Dair, his slowest starting air for a hit is frame 9 (fair).
Charizard's rock smash has the rock coming out on frame 3 (his jab comes out on frame 4 by comparison), but Charizard doesn't smack the rock himself for another 20+ frames. Said thing kills, racks damage and so on.
To lazy to chat more ATM.
Also check out this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOkF2HuSaak
PT is a sitting duck for 20+ frames according to the frame data without that being a factor.
Purple
Hi guys!
you should specifically ask thereflexwonder, he plays link and PT
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
More in-depth stuff in a desperate attempt to avoid studying:
Squirtle
-Squirtle's Usmash is very powerful and has a huge range up. It will kill Link at 140% or so IIRC.
-Squirtle's Dthrow sends you very far; not sure if damage plays a factor in the distance but it's gonna launch you regardless. DI it up or Squirtle has a great gimping opportunity.
-His Bup goes up kinda slowly and culminates in a pretty solid hit that can stage spike. You need to time the edgehog well.
-Bforward has SA, but you'll knock him the other way; his speed is dependent on how hard he's hit (ha, I remember one time my brother (Oldmanondorf) spiked my roommate as Squirtle at the beginning of a match near the edge; Squirtle was moving like Sonic speed away from the edge and died at 0%).
-I'm pretty sure bombs do less damage and don't make Squirtle flinch as much.
-SQUIRTLE IS ALWAYS HAPPY. Seriously. Even after getting giant punched, he still has a big grin on his face.
Ivysaur
-Zair goes through his Razor Leaf. Not sure about the other projectiles (I think bomb bounces around but keeps going).
-Ivysaur is great at stopping aerial approaches; Link isn't great at aerial approaches, so this advantage is less important. Be careful if you try the double jump and throw a bomb down trick; I'm pretty sure Ivy's Upsmash outranges Link's dair, and it hits hard.
-If you don't DI his fsmash, it will kill you at like 85%. That's awfully low for Link to die.
-I don't know much about dsmash; my old roommate always used bullet seed instead; you can escape out of it pretty quickly if you have quick fingers and DI the initial hit just right; you're probably gonna take like 8% if you escape or you'll be stuck eating 30%, so be careful.
-Dash attack is good, but again, Link has great DI. Watch for it and DI/momentum cancel promptly and it shouldn't kill you until late.
-Bombs do extra damage and send Ivysaur really far (a "killing move" if Ivy's around 160% and above you)
Charizard
-If you try to dair edgeguard his B up, you will pogo, bounce up, hit him again, and if he still has super armor, will knock you up with the final hit. If you notice he doesn't move after the first bounce, GET OUT OF THE WAY.
-I'm still pretty sure Charizard is overall faster than Link. Either way, he's certainly faster up close (Link is pretty slow; I think his fastest attacks are frame 6 or so). Dthrow does like 5-6% damage but will throw you far and low; DI up and toward the stage.
-Rock Smash hurts a lot; but with DI won't kill super early. As long as you're ready for it.
-Again, I'm pretty sure bombs will do less damage/ knockback; this is something to double check.
Some notes to Pokeymanz, since Link is often not commonly seen and often surprises people:
-Link is great at long-midrange; I would highly recommend really staying in Link's face the whole match. If you play defensively or back off, Link will only gladly reply with a wall of spam to funnel you right where he wants you and destroy you with his slow but long range and powerful moves. Don't give him a chance to control the match.
-If you get Link off the edge, yes, he is easy to edgeguard, but Links know that's their weakness. A Link off the edge is going to instantly enter "make it back to the edge or die" mode; your gimp attempt is never going to surprise them. With Link's ******** DI (I've seen a Link get hit with Ike's fsmash dead-on at 100% and go literally straight up, only to momentum cancel to safety) he's very likely to be coming from high up, not desperately trying to get height to recover.
-Usually, all it takes is one hit to edgeguard him since his Bup just goes straight up (no sideways movement AT ALL) immediatly after being hit, so don't get greedy and go for a big hit or fancy gimp. Squirtle can throw out plenty of attacks and is great for edgeguarding Link. Ivy's not so great because it's more dangerous for him to jump offstage than it is for Link, and Link will just FF air dodge->grappling hook the edge if you only spam razor leaf. Charizard really just needs to get out there and use his multiple jumps to get a hit on Link.
-Link will try to spice up his recovery with his boomerang and bombs (arrows, not so much). Watch out for those en route to a gimp.
-If Link is still sticking around past 150%, don't be surprised; assuming Link never gets his recovery interfered with Link lives a very, very long time (180ish). Be patient. One saving grace is he's easy to edgeguard.
-I'm not trying to say Link is good (he isn't), but don't dismiss him. He can pack a punch even though he's G tier is my point. As a fairly lower-tiered/less common character themselves, Pokeymanz are probably familiar with this concept themselves.
Hope all this helps! Any additional comments/rebuttals from Pokeymanz players or other Link players? I would especially love to know what kind of swap out strategies PT players use. I tried to keep this as unbiased as I could and assume the opponent knew what they were doing.
P.S.
See!? ALWAYS happy!
Squirtle
-Squirtle's Usmash is very powerful and has a huge range up. It will kill Link at 140% or so IIRC.
-Squirtle's Dthrow sends you very far; not sure if damage plays a factor in the distance but it's gonna launch you regardless. DI it up or Squirtle has a great gimping opportunity.
-His Bup goes up kinda slowly and culminates in a pretty solid hit that can stage spike. You need to time the edgehog well.
-Bforward has SA, but you'll knock him the other way; his speed is dependent on how hard he's hit (ha, I remember one time my brother (Oldmanondorf) spiked my roommate as Squirtle at the beginning of a match near the edge; Squirtle was moving like Sonic speed away from the edge and died at 0%).
-I'm pretty sure bombs do less damage and don't make Squirtle flinch as much.
-SQUIRTLE IS ALWAYS HAPPY. Seriously. Even after getting giant punched, he still has a big grin on his face.
Ivysaur
-Zair goes through his Razor Leaf. Not sure about the other projectiles (I think bomb bounces around but keeps going).
-Ivysaur is great at stopping aerial approaches; Link isn't great at aerial approaches, so this advantage is less important. Be careful if you try the double jump and throw a bomb down trick; I'm pretty sure Ivy's Upsmash outranges Link's dair, and it hits hard.
-If you don't DI his fsmash, it will kill you at like 85%. That's awfully low for Link to die.
-I don't know much about dsmash; my old roommate always used bullet seed instead; you can escape out of it pretty quickly if you have quick fingers and DI the initial hit just right; you're probably gonna take like 8% if you escape or you'll be stuck eating 30%, so be careful.
-Dash attack is good, but again, Link has great DI. Watch for it and DI/momentum cancel promptly and it shouldn't kill you until late.
-Bombs do extra damage and send Ivysaur really far (a "killing move" if Ivy's around 160% and above you)
Charizard
-If you try to dair edgeguard his B up, you will pogo, bounce up, hit him again, and if he still has super armor, will knock you up with the final hit. If you notice he doesn't move after the first bounce, GET OUT OF THE WAY.
-I'm still pretty sure Charizard is overall faster than Link. Either way, he's certainly faster up close (Link is pretty slow; I think his fastest attacks are frame 6 or so). Dthrow does like 5-6% damage but will throw you far and low; DI up and toward the stage.
-Rock Smash hurts a lot; but with DI won't kill super early. As long as you're ready for it.
-Again, I'm pretty sure bombs will do less damage/ knockback; this is something to double check.
Some notes to Pokeymanz, since Link is often not commonly seen and often surprises people:
-Link is great at long-midrange; I would highly recommend really staying in Link's face the whole match. If you play defensively or back off, Link will only gladly reply with a wall of spam to funnel you right where he wants you and destroy you with his slow but long range and powerful moves. Don't give him a chance to control the match.
-If you get Link off the edge, yes, he is easy to edgeguard, but Links know that's their weakness. A Link off the edge is going to instantly enter "make it back to the edge or die" mode; your gimp attempt is never going to surprise them. With Link's ******** DI (I've seen a Link get hit with Ike's fsmash dead-on at 100% and go literally straight up, only to momentum cancel to safety) he's very likely to be coming from high up, not desperately trying to get height to recover.
-Usually, all it takes is one hit to edgeguard him since his Bup just goes straight up (no sideways movement AT ALL) immediatly after being hit, so don't get greedy and go for a big hit or fancy gimp. Squirtle can throw out plenty of attacks and is great for edgeguarding Link. Ivy's not so great because it's more dangerous for him to jump offstage than it is for Link, and Link will just FF air dodge->grappling hook the edge if you only spam razor leaf. Charizard really just needs to get out there and use his multiple jumps to get a hit on Link.
-Link will try to spice up his recovery with his boomerang and bombs (arrows, not so much). Watch out for those en route to a gimp.
-If Link is still sticking around past 150%, don't be surprised; assuming Link never gets his recovery interfered with Link lives a very, very long time (180ish). Be patient. One saving grace is he's easy to edgeguard.
-I'm not trying to say Link is good (he isn't), but don't dismiss him. He can pack a punch even though he's G tier is my point. As a fairly lower-tiered/less common character themselves, Pokeymanz are probably familiar with this concept themselves.
Hope all this helps! Any additional comments/rebuttals from Pokeymanz players or other Link players? I would especially love to know what kind of swap out strategies PT players use. I tried to keep this as unbiased as I could and assume the opponent knew what they were doing.
P.S.
See!? ALWAYS happy!
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Wow good work Huggles and _clinton and everyone else that has contributed (so sorry if I didn't mention you).
I normally suck at these sort of matchup analysis stuff, so it's good to see you guys doing some work.
I normally suck at these sort of matchup analysis stuff, so it's good to see you guys doing some work.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
That someone is wrong. However he is right about one thing, the attacks don't change in % damage, just in knockback. Ivysaur dies earlier than Squirtle from things like Samus' Dtilt or Mario's Fsmash (and Squirtle lives to about Charizard's range from them).
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Airdoge throguh watergun when recovering because it can really hamper you recovery, its one of my favorite ways to KO link with squirtle, Also if you grab the ledge with zair, you wont be pushed back. I dont really know how i can help you guys though, ever link ive played with squirtle i have dominated, and i couldnt really notice anything special they were doing.
Ivysuar is pretty good against link but isnt as good as charizard in this matchup, so i usually switch out. But if i do fight with Ivysuar i play a spacing and keep away game. Bair and razor leafs and pivot grabs mostly.
Charizard i abuse his grab range, however i really have trouble with zair. I love rocksmash in this matchup because i shield pokes links shield quite frequently.
Ivysuar is pretty good against link but isnt as good as charizard in this matchup, so i usually switch out. But if i do fight with Ivysuar i play a spacing and keep away game. Bair and razor leafs and pivot grabs mostly.
Charizard i abuse his grab range, however i really have trouble with zair. I love rocksmash in this matchup because i shield pokes links shield quite frequently.
Toby.
Smash Master
It is highly unlikely that this is an even matchup.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
That's because it isn't. Squirtle ***** Link and Charizard has grab range the size of Texas.
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