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Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

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Purple

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Peach eh? Do we have any people who are willing to come and talk about it already?

I think i'm going to add some more in this one, I've been gone from this thread for quite some time :(
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Harass her with projectiles and zair if she tries to float. Keeping her out of the air is a very good thing to do.

Peach is a gogo, get Praxis and Dark.pch in here, name-searching lol. They have experience in this MU.
 

Scabe

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Dair is such a good move for punishing spotdodges.

Her Fair is brutal, it sends Link at the worst angle and has amazing knockback and can't be shieldgrabbed since the lag on it is non existent.

Fair > to Jab combo is usual when you block her Fair.

I don't know if it's just me but I started to find rolling helpful against her Fair.

Utilt for whenever she's above you.

Catch her turnips and Zair.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Good thing I know Peach, secondaries are cool.

So what can peach do to us. First off she has a Dthrow standing chaingrab at low %. She has pretty bad grab range, but she can jab>grab us. We could spot-dodge it, but if Peach predicts this it's a free Fsmash for her. It's complicated, but I'm pretty sure she can do all of this, I've done it against other Link's when I played as Peach.

Now her float, if she gets in close it will **** Link. Floating dair will rail on Link's shield, if she does hit Link with it SDI out as fast as you can. She can link a lot of her aerials together from it. Dair>auto-canceled nair>jab, uggg it's aggravating that she can be as aggressive as she wants and Link can't do much if she does get in close. Her fair is her best aerial, it auto-cancels so she has pretty much zero lag on it. It will send Link at a bad angle which she can set-up turnip and other kinds of gimps.

Link out-camps her turnips, her's are better for setting up gimps against Link but for zoning and versatility Link's are better. We can bomb slide while they can glide toss. Be careful of beam swords, Mr, Saturn and Bom-ombs even Mr. Saturn is dangerous because of the shield **** properties it has.

We will kill her much earlier than she can kill us. She will take much longer to get a kill on us than it will take us to get a kill on her.

My basic input.
 

Queen B. Kyon

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We can gimp link pretty well. Ummm I don't really know much about this mu. I do know our jab does well. Glide toss turnip to grab works well. I also feel that float isn't needed as much as people think. Short hop works just fine. Your projectiles are great but like the toonlink mu we can powershield. Our bair is very good as well. Your up tilt and upsmash catches us in float or our air game.... I think your out of shield game isn't very fast ether so we can take strong advantage to it due to our dair and very low lag moves after float. Also once your off stage if the Peach has a great turnip game you get gimped easy I think this mu is 60:40 Peach or 55:45. I'm sorry if I wasn't much help but I don't think there is much to say on this MU. Personally I love link. His side tilt is my favorite kill move.
 

Huggles828

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If we're talking like ability to just flat out kill someone, Link hands down. Link has a lot of kill potential and racks up damage fast, and multiple moves that kill. Peach is great at racking damage, but I often find it hard to land a solid killing blow (fair is a good killing move, but after that, utilt or uair are probably her next best kill moves). Peach can gimp Link pretty well with turnips if he tries to come in low. I like Peach a good bit and play her occasionally; I'd probably consider her a secondary, albeit along with like five other characters, haha. Even though I know Peach decently well, I just can't picture in my mind how this match would play out.
 

Scabe

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I think it's important to see what a Peach is capable of and how Peach is played:

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Queen B. Kyon

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She also has bair, upair, uptilt, side smash and upsmash. I personally only find it hard to kill snake, d3, and mk. Because of your lack of shield game we can easly get a grab in to knock you off stage where we can get our kill a lot easier. Link's recovery isn't no shuttle loop. Our uptilt is one of the best in the game. I don't think your dair goes thru it. Also we have the downthrow turnip to nair or fair depending on damage. I just think a Good Peach player shouldn't have a big problem killing as you may think is all...

Oh we also have toad =) you do throw a lot of stuff.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Peach doesn't have a problem killing light and mid weight characters, but the heavy weight do give her trouble.

Difference is Link has a terrible recovery, one where she has a projectile that is perfect to gimp Link with. Her Fair can also send Link at a terrible angle to set these-up. Then Link doesn't have the OoS options to face her with.

Still if Link avoids Fair & Usmash I could see him realistically living til 150%-160%, provided he isn't gimped.

Nair closer to the sides will kill him at 140%, which is worth noting.
 

Ryos4

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I actually have alot of experience fighting Peach with Link. Link is kind of a secondary for me so idk if im right about the contents below. Just my experience and mindset when i fight a good Peach.

I'll try and not repeat anything from previous posts. Projectiles good, as well as zair. And toad is evil.

Her floating dair combo, while it is dangerous, you can usually get out after one dair if you DI correctly, air dodge and jumping usually helps too. All of her aerials seem to work after Dair if the % is right. Usually when i shield the first one there doesn't seem like there's enough time to counter it, spot dodging is a horrible idea, and rolling is my best option.

Be aware of the ground level floating. While its not really dangerous to Link with his projectiles. It can still be a surprise if you let her get in close.

Her glide toss to Turnip is rather irritating. Don't ever really sit there and just shield or spot dodge it. Or she will grab you or worse. It seems best to just get out of the way. I like rolling through her but w/e is fine.

As for her auto-canceling aerials to jabs, idk if its just me but i cant seem to find anything of links that is fast enough to interrupt it. Ive been hit by like 2 rounds of jabs from her trying to jab back. Best thing is to roll away asap, though she might be able to dash attack/grab if she predicts you. You could probably shield grab somewhere in the jabs. I would suggest to keep out of jab range as she does descending aerials.

Fair is dangerous as most people have said so far. But usually thats one of Peach's most used aerials in terms of approaches. Pretty good range and priority, along with slow start up that can mess up your timing. Usually by the time Link is at killing% its pretty stale.

Alot of the Peach players seem to like using either SH nair or Dsmash if your ever really close and behind them. Shielding>Utilt seems pretty effective. Though as stated before. Utilt is probably Links best option against Peach in any senarios.

Ive also come across an interesting combo that she can do to at low %s. SHFair/Nair>SideB seems to work fairly well if you arn't looking for it.

Her drop turnip edge guard can and will kill Link if it hits you. I haven't really found a way around it yet aside from preventing her from doing it in the first place by approaching the stage with bombs or boomerang. However if your approaching from a low angle, its pretty much just hope she misses.

For her recovery. It seems rather poor for vertical recovery. If possible i like to hit her with an arrow as she undoubtedly floats back to the stage. Uncharge arrows work best, anything with very little vertical knock back and can take her out of her float.

I hope that helps someone...

...yeah.
 

Praxis

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Peach DESTROYS Link's recovery. Turnip offstage is a guaranteed death. I play Deva a lot. His DI is obnoxious.

Peach wins this MU. Link can do well by virtue of his camp game and weight, but Peach has better tools and gimps him almost has hard as MK when he's offstage.
 

Rizen

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Peach will combo us to h*ll if she's close and Fair has good reach in addition to power and speed. Link has a spam/Zair advantage and should use it as much as possible. Never recover below the stage. I think Zair can hit through Toad with the second hit (?). Just moving camp and stay onstage.
 

Purple

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Well, Peach players play patiently, and prioritize gimping over kills. While link players do the same thing by picking at their opponents, but looking for well.. kills over gimps.

It's like polar opposites :|

I would assume gimps would be more likely than kills however, considering late game all potential kills moves would probably be burnt out. Peach has a much better recovery than link, therefore has much more of a chance of coming back than their opponent.

Link has little to no chance of recovery, even with good di (like i know Link players have). Like Praxis said, one turnip would do it for link.
 

Huggles828

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I agree with Roxy. Link and Peach are pretty different. Peach is great in the air, Link is okay if he's got momentum on his side, but he's still more ground-based. Link has great range but is slow meaning he's in trouble if someone gets in his face, Peach has okay range but can go on a nice tear when she's got a good opening. Link can kill well and has tons of kill options, Peach is great at gimping but not incredible when it comes to flat out KOing someone. If Link can keep Peach out, he has a great chance at winning, but if Peach can get in his face and keep pressure on him the match is hers to lose.

One last thing; if Peach is floating just above ground like I know Peach's love to do (at least, I do), Link's grab WILL NOT grab her unless she is right in his face (unlikely since she'd have to be much closer than she even needs to be to pull a nair off for Link to grab her) or until she touches the ground. Also, Peach can do all her aerials with a turnip in her hand while floating; she doesn't even have to drop it and regrab like Link does with bombs (although she can to do it while not floating).

I'd say this matchup is pretty tough but definitely not undoable for Link. Peach does well against Link, especially if she can force him offstage and gimp him, but I think Link has too many options in the matchup to say she counters him. Numbers really oversimplify a matchup, but it's the best we have and gives a general idea of what you're up against, so I'd personally say it's "60:40 Peach."

Yes, I had to go back and play as Peach some more to get an idea of what I thought of this match. Plus I think a lot of this has already been said, but oh well.
 

Nicole

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Hello. I play with the great LEGAN.

What Praxis said. I think Link does okay onstage vs. Peach, he can DI her **** and live for quite awhile, but if he gets put in a bad position offstage, or DI's poorly, he's simply not going to recover. His recovery just entirely negates his good weight, which sucks for him vs. Peach, as she can't normally kill so early.

Peach pressures shields better than nearly every character in this game, and Link has zero OOS options. Link has to camp HARD in this matchup. Peach can camp right back and avoid many of his projectiles. Link shouldn't be hitting her with kill moves very often, esp. his Dair, as she can just Utilt through it. If she isn't grounded, he's got a better chance, but the Peach should know to look out for the Dair, and the bomb tricks leading INTO the Dair. I'd say Link's best chance landing his Dair is when Peach is getting back onstage - if you can predict what she's going to do when getting up off the ledge, or hamper her options with bombs, Link can have a fairly easy time hitting her here.

Basically, Link's going to get combo-ed to hell and possibly gimped, so he needs to be camping hardcore and avoiding as much **** as he can from Peach, and waiting for her to make the mistakes that he can capitalize on. He can kill her pretty early. I'd say 60:40 Peach, maybe 65:35, but I really don't think Link is THAT bad of a character. He has options, but his weakness OOS and his gawdawful recovery really hurt his chances of winning against Peach.
 

Ryos4

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Anyone know if Zelda has been discussed? I dont wanna look through the 50 pages for no reason.
 

Rizen

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A few last note about the Peach MU:
I'd CP Halberd, FD, or a low ceiling stage if those are allowed in your area.
Link can air dodge and falls fast- don't risk confronting peach in the air if there's any doubt.
Because Link should be spamming and repelling peach like crazy his KO moves should be fresh and Peach is light. Up launching moves like Utilt/Uair work at higher %s than Dair but are easier to land and that's what counts.
Don't recover low.

OoS, is it better to roll behind a floating Peach? Peach's Bair is weaker than her Fair.
 

Scabe

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What character do you guys want to discuss next?

Criteria for next time:​

  • [*]Common things you'll see from them
    [*]How do we deal with their moves
    [*]How they deal with our moves
    [*]Stages, good/bad neutrals, good/bad counterpicks
    [*]Frame Data
    [*]Strengths and Weaknesses
    [*]Videos of this matchup
Let's aim to knock of all this criteria for the next matchup.
 

Dumbfire

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He will approach with Bair and space us with his tils.
We need Kirin, he plays his DK buddy so much.
 

Ryos4

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I've also played a bunch of DK players. Most of which destroy my Link if I'm not careful.

Things I've come across and may be common to a DK player are...

Most common is the Bair approach, defense, w/e. Most Dk players will spam this fast move with long range and apparent high priority. Soo what i usually like to keep in mind is if he is going to be in the air, i want him to be facing me. Any sort of damage to DK will cause him to automatically turn toward the damage, so when he is in the air, go for some sort of projectile or zair retreat. It doesn't matter what hits him. However, be aware of the possible use of his DK Punch, he can reverse it and it comes out fast, and with super armor.

Dk's up special is also commonly used on the ground. It could both be as an approach or a defense. As long as DK is on the ground when it finishes it wont have much lag. The move has super armor frames and does tons of damage with multiple hit boxes. So no spot dodging unless you wanna take some damage. Also someone needs to check if it makes DK float above the ground to prevent grabs from Link.

When near the edges of the stage, avoid getting grabbed at all costs. DK has a few ways to kill Link regardless of your %. First being the Fthrow stage spike. Common but sometimes hard and dangerous to pull off for a DK, which may cause him to suicide. And its also tech-able, however if you cant tech it you still might be able to get back if your % is low enough. You should also be aware that some DK's will foot stool you after that which will probably prevent any recovery. The more dangerous one is when Dk walks off stage with you in hand and just tosses you forward. This can followed up with DKs up special to take out your air jump if you use it too soon and then just calmly edge hog you.

If you save your jump and approach too low, Dk can just Dair spike. Best prevention for either possibilities are to DI up in my opinion. If you go high enough you can avoid both. Also if your gutsy you may try a foot stool on Dk because the only thing he can really do is Uair, which can only benefit your recovery, and possibly Nair or Fair, but DK may not be able to make it back after those attempts.

However, if he chooses to go back the ledge, watch out for Bair.

DK's Smashes are also very commonly used. So if in range of any of them, its important to avoid using laggy moves. Even if moves come out fast, Link's Dsmash. It still has terrible ending lag, so if DK manages to block it your most likely taking a smash in return. Jabs and Utilts are what i would use. Utilt can juggle Dk pretty easily. Also watch out of Dtilt's to Ftilt combos.

Hopefully a DK will stop by to further the discussion as i have never played as DK, so i cant say for sure if this is all true or not.
 

Foxy

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As a DK player and a bit of a Link I think I can offer a good bit to this discussion. Here's the points we need to discuss...

Common things you'll see from them
Bair, bair, bair. Not all DK's use it as bread and butter, but enough do. They'll do short hop bair, short hop double bair, empty double jump-fastfall bair, and so on. They camp it. And Link, sadly, has not a lot of options for outspacing this beast. Good DK players will buffer their landings into reverse utilts, which are rock-solid for shield pressure and can still outspace most of Link's arsenal. Every time you land, prepare for him to charge an fsmash or dsmash, as the massive Verizon coverage and long hitbox time for both of these options are perfect for catching you in a fall-trap. Despite DK having a large variety of fun and unique styles (which is why I love him), you won't see too much difference in a tournament-setting in terms of common tactics. Apart from bair and utilt spacing, and landing- or airdodge-traps, it's just a grab-bag of playstyle with his collection of situational moves. However, though it isn't 'common', DK's cargo throw is his deadliest weapon in this match, and unless you have brilliant spacing, you'd better hope he doesn't use it a whole lot. Link is one of the very few characters in the game (off the top of my head, Olimar and Wario without his bike) that he can kill at basically ANY percent with a simple cargo dthrow as soon as he runs off of the edge. This is huge for him because usually his gimps come from his cargo stage-spikes, which are not only limited to certain stages, but can be teched and he can be counter-gayed. But he can just grab Link on his hairy back and toss him off, grab the edge, up-b stall a few times, and it's over.

How do we deal with their moves
I can't give Link a whole lot of suggestions here. The main advantage you have is projectiles - use them. Though a good DK will bair through a lot of your ranged options, I believe bombs will trade (AKA explode on his foot). Projectiles wouldn't be too much of an advantage if it wasn't for DK's shield, which is exposed to a lot of pressure and pokes/stabs, which Link's projectiles are great for. Another good option is your extra-meaty dair, which is risky (as we all know) but synergizes with DK's weak shield very well for you. Unless he's at full strength, it's often going to find a hole. Even if he stays off the ground to cover this option, surprise sword-plants (as scrubby as they are) will simply beat everything DK has in the air, and often times when he tries a uair juggle or trap, you can just pound through it with your falling dair.

How they deal with our moves
If you space with anything other than projectiles, he'll outspace it with his bair, consistently. If you spam your projectiles, he'll try to double-jump over them and space a bair during your lag (which you should be able to punish, with a couple mindgames). If you go for grabs, he'll try to spotdodge them and punish with a semi-charged smash (or a fwd-b to smash)... but his spotdodge animation is so long, you're relatively safe. I don't know Link's core playstyle well enough to offer a lot of suggestions here, however.

Stages, good/bad neutrals, good/bad counterpicks
Donkey Kong has some very, very strong stages, and they apply to this matchup. My personal favorite, and something to fear, is Pokemon Stadium 1, which not only gives him the best and fastest cargo spike in the game (which WILL insta-gib you, with less wiggle time), but a few more great benefits, like ground-pound combos on the windmill, platforms at a nice height, and a very low ceiling, perfect for his KO moves. His other strongest counterpicks are undoubtedly Delfino Plaza and Brinstar. On Brinstar, he has a lot of potential to autocancel his up-b, and his smashes gain extreme hitbox length when applied on any of the destructible elements (he also has nice lava combos, and a trick where he can cargo you into the lava, and you'll fall down to your death, and he'll pop up with the lava). On Delfino, he has some rage-worthy stuff, including auto-waterspikes from a simple cargo release, wall infinites from the same technique, some of the fastest walk-off kills in the game, and a surprisingly scary sharking game on the regular stage (he can drop off, poke any aerial through the floor, and up-b to either side safely).

When it comes to neutrals... there are some important factors. He can utilize all of them, due to some interweaving of benefits. First is the ability to cargo spike, which is less important as he can gimp you without it. Regardless, those neutrals are FD, Lylat, BF, and SV. Only YI takes that option away, and some of the best DK players actually favor YI over any other stage or counterpick on the entire game due to a strict-timing trick where he can up-b onto the stage, moving along the ground, and gain 100% invincibility during the full length of the move. I personally hate YI because of every other aspect of it for DK, but many swear by it and be prepared for it. Platforms are also a large advantage for DK, which his many options with his large range to hit you while you occupy one. For this reason, and your projectile game, I would recommend FD as your neutral to strike or random to. As for your counterpicks, I'd be lost, because his bad ones are often your worst (like Rainbow Cruise).

Strengths and Weaknesses
For this matchup...

DK
+ Better range
+ Gimp potential
+ Large KO power
+ Safe recovery
+ Heavy with DI options
- Weak shield
- No projectiles

Link
+ Projectiles
+ Shield-stabbing attacks
+ KO power
- Easy to gimp
- Mid-to-low range
 

Micaelis

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I've never played a Link I've had trouble with before (aka no reputable ones) so I don't know too much about the MU specifically but what Ryos said seems along the lines of correct.

DK's main attacks are his Ftilt, reverse Utilt, Bair, and Uair along with his Smashes. Most DKs are VERY good at punishing (with a Smash or a Punch) because it's what DK does best. His B moves are some of the best in the game too with UpB and DownB being amazing damage rackers, spot dodge punishers, and destroyers of shields. SideB also has amazing shield damage and can easily break a shield at 65% or lower I'd say.

Link seems to have the tools to be super annoying to DK. I expect zoning DK and basically running away would be the ideal strategy. DK gets camped hard due to his poor shield and large hurtbox so throw a bunch of projectiles and Zair him to death until you get him high enough to kill (which is VERY high if DK has good DI and momentum cancels right).

DK can kill Link pretty early with Fsmash/Punch due to his poor recovery but Link won't die as soon to DK's Dsmash which is his most used finishing smash. Also, the down cargo throw off the stage is almost a sure kill on Link if they don't break out fast enough and the DK ledge stalls correctly.

I hesitate to put a number of the MU but I expect it's 55:45 in DK's favor on a professional level. A campy Link who plays smart has the tools keep DK away but once DK gets in, Link has the potential of dying really early if they're not careful.

EDIT: Foxy covered it well. I also just wanted to add that DK's Ftilt, Jab, and Bair clank with most projectiles and DK will use them well to clear his path to Link quickly.
 

Purple

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I just wanna say I brought the last two posters here.

*cough*

Foxy and Micaelis I really wasn't expecting you to write so much, thanks a lot :D!!!
 

Huggles828

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No kidding Scabe. The Link boards have been booming as of late.
If you get DK in a jab, he doesn't have a lot of fast attacks that face in front of him in the air. His nair has bad range and isn't a great attack overall, his fair takes forever. B up maybe, but I very highly doubt it. Now, if he can DI to the ground and powershield a jabcancel, he's gonna wreck Link because he's just overall faster than Link (and not just marginally; DK can hustle). If he has his Donkey punch fully charged up don't try to jab cancel him, he'll just punch you and eat the 4 damage of your next swipe while you eat a ham fist sandwich and his delicious, delicious super armor, and then you'll wash it down with a nice 30% damage. It even has half the calories with twice the death!
^ A post of mine from another thread we had. When I sit down and think about it I think Link has a hard time with DK because while he can't gimp Link as quite as easily as some other characters (although with 3 spikes, cargo toss, etc., he still can), Link's usual advantages, living forever if not gimped and excellent range/walling out opponents at the expense of speed, are neutralized by DK's large ham hands of range and priority, crazy strength, and shocking speed to follow it all up. I really think DK is a top 10 character easily if you remove Dedede from the equation. Not to mention he is crazy fun to play.
 

Ragnar0k

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Links arrows and boomerang can be clanked with one of DK's grounded attacks. Ftilt will clank with them both I believe, not sure about whether it clanks with a charged arrow or not. Jab could possibly cancel them both out but I've yet to try it. I don't really play against many Links. Bombs would simply get destroyed and give DK damage if he tries to break them, making them one of your more reliable projectiles in the match up. Zair is annoying too as it hits twice and could easily poke. It's also a good move to use to turn DK around if he tries to rar a bair at you.
 
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