Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[IYM!]

Off-topic, I love Weegee's dash attack and B-air. I'm thinking of picking him up just for those two attacks. XD

Weegee´s dash??????? what is that??

 

[Scabe]

Sorry man I posted the wrong Link

Here it is: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9627225&highlight=wolf#post9627225

 

[IYM!]

thanks Scabe and thanks Anonano

you are great XD

 

[quirkynature]

Weegee´s dash??????? what is that??

Luigi's dash attack. The *****-slaps.

 

[hippiedude92]

i thought the links are in aib, i didnt know swf link boards are still alive lol i play m4ge and kirin all the time

i think luigi either wins 55:45 or 5/5

just matter of links spacing on his good days or not. if ur letting luigi inside, then ur sucking bad.

zair/bomb or zair/jab1 is ur best wall.

 

[Huggles828]

i thought the links are in aib, i didnt know swf link boards are still alive lol

Haha, yeah, the void in the Link SWF board has kinda been filled by a bunch of new members like me and a few who stuck around. We're back and alive and kicking, it seems. Well, at least I seem to think so. I dunno what it was like beforehand.

i think luigi either wins 55:45 or 5/5
just matter of links spacing on his good days or not. if ur letting luigi inside, then ur sucking bad.
zair/bomb or zair/jab1 is ur best wall.

I really don't know anyone who can play Luigi for beans, so I can't really say much. I bet Luigi completely and totally dismantles Link once he gets inside, though; the question really is in my mind how well can Link wall off Luigi? From the sound of it you're saying he can fend Luigi off fairly well?

Haha, sorry, this is about all I can do to contribute to this discussion since I really don't know much about this matchup. I don't even play Luigi that often so I'm not too sure how he works practically

 

[Anonano]

The history of these boards is a relatively depressing one.
/digress

Luigi is really easy to push around (literally), and it will be your greatest asset in spacing him this MU. If you time zair so that it hits Luigi's shield right before you touch the ground, then you essentially get a free push-back move like dsmash, jabs, or fsmash on him to entirely reset the spacing, which is a luxury we don't have in any other matchup. Luigi's dash attack is such lulz that if he does use it (accidentally) then DI backwards and dsmash or SH Dair that son.
Luigi has a solid damage racker in his tornado. It's not as terrific as Mach Tornado, but it does its job on Link, who's heavy and slow enough for this to be a hard move to punish, as well as an easy move to get combo'ed in. I'm not sure whether jab can outprioritize it, but I certainly hope so because that is just a really annoying move.
UpB shouldn't be a problem if you're spacing right and being sparse with grabs. Fsmash, his other great killer on Link, can be spaced in such a way that it shouldn't be a problem unless you get yourself trapped in a corner or on a ledge.
Luigi can combo you to about 50% with utilt and uair, then finish it up with a move. Avoid doing any close-combat stuff whatsoever until you are about 30% so you can avoid the worst of the combo.
Luigi has plenty of great options to gimp Link. Just about any aerial can do it, and if we try to gimp him, then all of his specials he'll be using can really mess us up, most particularly tornado. Keep onstage and wait for a good opportunity to kill the low-weight Weegee. 55-45 Luigi or 60-40 Luigi.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Link can outspace w/ tons of zairs which will annoy the Luigi player due Luigi's terrible range, if a good Link knows how to space extremely well vsing a Luigi, Link would stand a good chance to beat him. Link must take Luigi to FD cuz Luigi is not very gud on that stage when it comes to characters having projectiles.

 

[IYM!]

you need be carefull with his up b and his Fsmash,

but with the cerrect space you will be fine, abuse of your bombs an boomerang
and use arrows when luigi try to come back to the stage

 

[SpaghettiWeegee]

If you're going to remember one thing about this MU, remember this: Nobody pays attention to Weegee. Nobody (I would know, look at my username). However, if you want to win, you're going to have to.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've played this one before, it's not that bad of an MU, but still Link can get in big trouble if Luigi gets in close.

Space with jab and zair a lot, thanks to Luigi's slide you can be much safer on his shield than compared to most other math-ups.

Does jab - UpB work on Link? I've heard mixed answers on this one. Most people tell me no, but I'd like to make sure on this one.

I need to look into this one a bit more before I post about it.

 

[Anonano]

If you DI correctly, no, it doesn't work on Link.

If you don't have Arkive DI, however, I suggest you hold on to your panties, 'cause you're going flying.

 

[PK-ow!]

There are situations where Luigi's DA actually combos, but I don't know what they are. I just leave it to Luigi to find those scenarios, and know that it isn't always a threat.


However, I'm saying that from my perspective, it seems that I can play a flowchart Luigi and win games against a Link.

I'm the only person in my area who uses a Link, but there is one person who uses Luigi. I want to figure out why he doesn't ****, basically.

I don't worry about Fsmash and Up-B. Up-B is obviously for if you **** up bad, nothing to say about that. Fsmash isn't free in this match thanks to Clawshot. At low percents though, if he gets behind or attacks through your dodge, you can't punish because Luigi can DI your jab into his Up-B. You've got nice tricks between Grab and Dsmash, though.


Here's what one part of that flowchart will look like:

Shoot a fireball. Link's best option is now to Hylian shield the fireball. OR: If you have initiative (frames), SH a Fireball from outside Link's DA range. Link is now trapped.

Walk up to Link's jab range. If he:

ZAirs

>Dodge under and inside or behind, because Link has to jump first. Button mash to **** (ok, I have to think, but I know what Link can't do here. In one afternoon, I already know 30%-40% combos, extended by tech traps (air dodge traps), on Link early game, thx to Nair)

Grabs

> Same thing, except you can do anything for damage.

Does any attack but jab, including run back + projectile

> interrupt or cross and attack.

Does nothing before you get to jab range

> shield, wait for jab, or jump over a jab. Jab does no shield push and lets Luigi get in. But you're fine if he pushes the shield, and you **** if you jump the jab. No jab cancel will get a Luigi who knows how to come in after jumping that jab, and FAir here does a ton of work for Luigi on its own.


If Link already jumps, take center stage, then annoy him with Cyclone or aerials. Every so often, remind Link you have BAir, and it's freaking huge.



The only way Link can get an advantage is if he, contrary to all his strengths, jumps first and comes in from high. Because there he can leverage his BAir which is tough for Luigi to work around, and Luigi's fireballs don't help.
But going that high is inherently dangerous for Link, who can't outspeed Luigi, and is screwed if Luigi shields from inside a BAir no matter what aerial Link does.

I will say it seems that both chars find it hard to get back on point after taking one hit, from the other.


The only room left it seems is using Bombs or indirect Boomerang. But I think Luigi can just ignore these and wait for you to run out of room. And he's always got Cyclone, aerial domination, or tons of panic buttons if you waste too much time with these right in front of him.


*~*~*~
I don't believe Link's ZAir pushes Luigi's shield. After that interaction, Luigi, having been hit, is inside that range. He's now on point.

 

[Anonano]

Well, the only reason I can see that you can't understand how Luigi can't just flowchart Link like D3 can is probably because it's not flowchart nor as single-planed as you are assuming. Zair's tip does enough stun to Luigi's shield and knockback that it is at least a neutral situation for both characters.
If Link is trying zair with Luigi further in than the tip, then I assure you he's not playing well. Any good Link will avoid that kind of situation. Zair just isn't safe any closer than the tip.

Also, if I see a fireball, I'm not going stand there and shield and hope not to die. I'm gonna run away and start spamming like heck. The fireball is not a set-up for Luigi unless he hits you by surprise from inches away, at which point in time Luigi can actually start aerialing the crap out of Link.
From the info you've given I can see a ton of things that Link can do to get around Luigi's approach.

 

[Tewx2]

Link vs Luigi is a pretty easy MU

It's a two step process

First you lose with link, like get totally ***** JV 4 stocked or something awful like that, then you switch to Sheik for Game 2 and 3 and do work.

 

[Huggles828]

Link vs Luigi is a pretty easy MU

It's a two step process

First you lose with link, like get totally ***** JV 4 stocked or something awful like that, then you switch to Sheik for Game 2 and 3 and do work.

Or you can just cut out all the unnecessary steps and fun of playing of Luigi, Shiek, or Link and go straight to Meta Knight dittos.

There's no way Luigi can just follow a generic script and beat Link unless Link is dumb, but the whole point of this is assuming people are playing at the top of the metagame. In fact, Hylian Shield is usually a very situational choice. Zair seems like a safe move to me since Weegee is so slow and even a little bit of shield push will push him back, and like Ano said, Link shouldn't even be thinking about using zair up close. I don't know this matchup well, but I know Weegee is scary up close, so I'm going to be using retreating zairs or spacing them so that when I land the tip of zair is just hititng Weegee, and he doesn't have anything that long range that can punish zair, which is often a safe move since it has no lag on landing.

Grabbing is also going to be high risk low reward for Link here; grabs will be nice if you can get one off, but the penalty for missing is going to be a nice flaming upB to the face.

 

[Anonano]

Somebody grab Ryu and let's update this thread.

 

[pulse131]

i used to play against a weegee quite often, but nowadays i think that guy quit. from what i remember, dont try to combo him in the air nair toooo good
also when hes recovering with down b hes just asking for a dair, just make sure you dont miss cuz it WILL gimp you. jab cancel dosnt work either, i believe. this is another one of those M.U.s where you cant really afford to get punished, however upsmash is effective, but again, dont miss. moar later

 

[Scabe]

Since Red Ryu isn't around that often, I'll update with the new character. Who do you guys want next?

 

[quirkynature]

Have we done Yoshi?

 

[Huggles828]

Here ya go. Handy dandy chart of who we've done.

So what do we call Weegee? Someone said 55-45 Weegee or 50-50, someone said 60-40 or 55-45 Weegee.

We could do Pit next maybe? Ryos could probably help out a lot with Pit. Fox would also be good since we haven't done him since reevaluating the matchups and he's a hard matchup to be looked at.

 

[IYM!]

i think fox will be OK

Hey Huggles828, great chart , nice job XD

 

[Huggles828]

Ha, half of the credit should go to ToZ. I pretty blatantly ripped off his Samus chart he made for their boards.

 

[quirkynature]

Massive sidetrack: Why is Link blocking the pole-thing with his sword when he clearly has a SHIELD? Shield to block and sword to ATTACK. Makes counter-attacking ridiculously easy...

 

[Huggles828]

DO NOT QUESTION THE KICKASS PICTURE THAT IS MY DESKTOP BACKGROUND

(....or was, before I got the Entei Awkward Zombie wallpaper. It cracks me up every time I open up my computer, haha!)

 

[Ryos4]

Well i think we should probably either do a character that gives Link trouble, like Diddy or Olimar. Or a character who is rather unknown as to help avoid surprises when we run into those matchups, like Bowser, who in my opinion is actually quite a pain on certain stages.

But yeah if you want i can help with both Pit and Mario.

Also its funny to see that Links only beneficial match up is Ganon, his forever enemy, or his forenemy if you will. lol.

 

[IYM!]

mario ah, will be a interesting thread, the two pets of nintendo in a fight XD


or maybe fox......

 

[Scabe]

Start discussing about Fox peoples!

Go out into the Fox boards and ask for their assistance.

 

[Rizen]

Or a character who is rather unknown as to help avoid surprises when we run into those matchups, like Bowser, who in my opinion is actually quite a pain on certain stages.

Bowser boards discussed the MU: We spam, Zair, and run, then try to shield through and grab release.

Fox:
We should ask ToonLinkIsOpenlyDeceptive.

 

[Ryos4]

I don't know that much about fox. But i have to say, it seems like his Meta game is either not very developed here, or is very limited.

Most fox players i have played or even seen have a few tricks they like to use and just spam them over and over.

Most common is the Dair>Utilt/Usmash/ a bunch of other stuff. really fast and combos pretty well. Though if you hit the ground first you can usually shield the follow up for Dair and then probably get the hell out of there as Foxes utilt is so fricken fast not to mention all of his other fast options. I usually try to avoid being below him at all times unless a platform is between us, even then sometimes its dangerous, never stupidly attack Fox with no back door planned for your escape. If you get caught in the Utilt combo, do your best to Di out of it and never try to counter it at low%s. Probably can jump out of it, but with fox being so fast, if he expects it you might be in trouble.

Another thing to worry about is Foxes Shine edge guard. It can and will completely own Link, and i think it can even out prioritize aerial spin attack coming from above, which it will. So recovering smart if very important. This is a really good guide to look through: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=147637

Best thing to do is probably either recover high, save second jump for super low recovery, or prevent edge guards with Links projectiles, mainly bombs and rangs. Zair recovery will usually fail if attempted to beat it.

Foxes shine also causes him to float around for a long time and can FF at any points, so never blinding go for an attack where you assume hes going to fall and when, because chances are that he wont.

Also dont try to do some sort of Utilt combo on a fresh fox stock, he falls so fast that he can easily just shield the a following Utilt and then grab or beat the crap out of you.

Foxes usmash is killer, everyone knows it and most fox players will look for a Usmash at about 100%. So whenever you're near or above that %, dont screw around, and go into super defense mode and dont use any laggy attacks unless you KNOW they are going to hit. Eventually he will stop spamming it and go back into normal battle mode, but always be aware that it is going to get you, eventually. That is if you arn't careful.

Fox's recovery is kinda interesting. His Uspecial has a lot more range then you would assume. On FD he can recover from below even when in the bubble. As long as its straight, but tether guarding the ledge perfectly, will always knock a stock from Fox if hes far enough down.

His side special is a little more tricky, but at the same time it leaves him the most vulnerable to a Dair, Uair, or Nair. Its fast and has its own hit boxes, but anything with a long duration hitbox can out prioritize it. Usually goes straight for the ledge when far away, and can be edge hogged simply with a tether recovery that you don't reel in. If closer to the stage they may go for the ledge, but they also may go in for an attack as they recover with Side B. So ususually best bet is to step back and try to either space properly for a Fsmash/Dsmash or look to intercept with Dair or Nair. Its always safer to shield and then retaliate afterward but he may get away with it.

I cant think of anything else at the moment.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is a pretty aggravating match-up. I'll say first hand if you don't know what your doing Fox will absolutely wreck you.

Fox is like Sheik in the sense that people who don't know what the full extent of what they can punish, they are going to be able to rush you down. It's something you need to play and learn, for example I've thrown a boomerang at moderately close range and I've had Fox power shield it run up and Usmash me. Know what you can appropriately do, learning the safety distance and mix-ups are the best way to figure this match-up out.

Remember, Fox just by having a reflector outcamps Link. If he only had his laser it's wouldn't be so much of a problem but add in the reflector then it's a problem. There is the whole, aim for the feet, trick they you can do on him that also works on Wolf, bombs exploding there will hit him even if he reflects. Note his reflector stops his fall, this means he can bait you to use a move and fast fall to get a punish in, his fast fall is really fast.

He has a few follow ups into his Usmash, what I really think is his best move. Dair, well that is DIable so you can get a power shield if he tries to Usmash. From what I've heard at certain percentages shine is a true combo into Usmash, not sure though.

Just some tips I have I'll go over the playstyle I think is more effective against Fox.

Either way though, I think this is a terrible match-up for Link.

 

[Conviction]

This is a terrible MU for Link.
Shine stops most of your projectiles and even then bombs isn't that hard to aviod.
Fox can even gimp link by just dairing offstage and recovering if the Fox unsure or if you still have an air jump he can shine right after the Dair, or Fox can use an IA Nair offstage to send you back.
I would say best way to use you bombs it to try and punish our landings since you would be aiming at our feet.
Once Link is in the air this is a bad stop for him especially agaisnt Fox and our juggling abilities, your best options would be Dair but that can be Fair'd because it strikes vertically, and your Nair would probably be best to break a utilt string.
I think we can Jab before you can do a jab-jab canel follow up.
Fox is 2nd fastest faller so trying to juggle him will be hard plus as already metioned we can shinestall.

This an MU I would reconmend you guys aviod if you ever see a Fox at a tourney.

it seems like his Meta game is either not very developed here, or is very limited.

most the SWF Fox Boards don't know Fox's options his Metagame is advancing in TKD's group and we plan to reveal some things.

His side special is a little more tricky, but at the same time it leaves him the most vulnerable

Our Illision like Falco has invicibility frames at the beginning unless you do the first phrase cancel. Also Foxes shouldn't be recovering low we have rising Fair the creates a wall and gives a significant boost in our jump and horizontal movement

Dair, well that is DIable so you can get a power shield if he tries to Usmash

This is true if Fox uses his full Dair on you, you cannot SDI away when he uses only one or two hits. Also Dair>Grab will combo at all precents and if you SDI away we can walk grab. Fox has the fastest walk in the game tied with Marth.


Hope this helps but I really don't reconmend playing Fox as Link at all.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This is a terrible MU for Link.
Shine stops most of your projectiles and even then bombs isn't that hard to aviod.

Shine can't stop Z-air and bombs still hurt their owner when they hit the ground

Fox can even gimp link by just dairing offstage and recovering if the Fox unsure or if you still have an air jump he can shine right after the Dair, or Fox can use an IA Nair offstage to send you back.

Play smarter Links

I would say best way to use you bombs it to try and punish our landings since you would be aiming at our feet.
Once Link is in the air this is a bad stop for him especially agaisnt Fox and our juggling abilities, your best options would be Dair but that can be Fair'd because it strikes vertically, and your Nair would probably be best to break a utilt string.

Best option to stop a juggle is D-air? have you ever heard of bombs, they sort of stop juggles.

I think we can Jab before you can do a jab-jab canel follow up.

B/c of fall speed, I can see that happening. But they most likely will be doing jab-jab into something else when it hits shield.

Fox is 2nd fastest faller so trying to juggle him will be hard plus as already metioned we can shinestall.

U-tilt juggles?

 

[Conviction]

Shine can't stop Z-air and bombs still hurt their owner when they hit the ground

I said most of his projectile

Play smarter Links

Happens to any level of Links

Best option to stop a juggle is D-air? have you ever heard of bombs, they sort of stop juggles.
B/c of fall speed, I can see that happening. But they most likely will be doing jab-jab into something else when it hits shield.

Read I say Nair, yes I heard of bombs but don't you have to pull them out before you can use them? Z-catch.

U-tilt juggles?
We fall too fast even your own said that.

Yea I think you kinda skimmed through what I said and misread some things.

 

[Scabe]

Fox really does own Link. He's way too fast, he can get out Link's slow projectile spam one second and then be up in your face the next.

Juggling him is a pain and can be quite dangerous. You may think an Up air will hit but he can just shine stall and then punish you with Dair.

His Up smash is brutal, it comes out so fast and has incredible knockback killing Link at around 110 despite him having one of the best vertical DI.

He can reflect our projectiles back. He can out spam Link. If the shine hits you offstage, say goodbye to a stock.

Here's some matches of Legan vs Zeton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rYHMDyL8_E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTlMbVRdL1Y

As for stages I hear he's pretty deadly on Battlefield. He's also good on Smashville and FD.

Maybe Lylat, Delfino would be good against Fox?

 

[Conviction]

Fox ***** on Battlefield and Halberd so strike BF and ban Halberd.

Fox might take you to FD to camp you though.

Take to Lylat cause once a Fox knows Delfino he won't illision through for an SD. Idk where as to take him as Link.

70:30 Fox's favor sound good?

 

[Huggles828]

Fox is crazy fast and has a reflector. This means two of Link's best aspects, spam game and spacing, are totally wrecked. If Fox gets even a brief reprieve in your spam wall (often as simple as a single reflector) he can get in your face and beat you up. When you're off the edge, DON'T try to throw a boomerang at Fox as you return unless you can angle it so it won't hit you on the way back; he'll reflect it and get a lolgimp on you with your own boomerang. Link's Bup has VERY nasty priority (transcendental I think) but Fox can very easily shine Link's head and gimp him. I've never seen a Fox use dair for gimping so much, but nair is very good too, and with his reflector, he can stall and wait in a good spot to gimp Link. Tethering the edge is a horrible idea. Don't do it if he's in a position to attempt an edgeguard at all (you're not invincible til you reach the edge and my brother salivates at the thought of shining me when I try this).

Bombs aren't worthless but must be spaced just right to actually hit him. Arrows are best when cancelled so Fox doesn't have as much time to react to them (but don't get predictable). Boomerang is fairly safe (if not really useful) as long as if he reflects it it won't blow you offstage, but watch he doesn't punish the lag on the move. Spam's alright off the edge since Fox will be busy recovering himself and likely won't be able to afford to stop and reflector it back, but be careful; his recovery with his fair floating trick and bup or bside is surprisingly good considering how fast he falls and how slow he moves horizontally in the air and he may have enough leeway to afford it.

Fox falls very fast, but Link can fast fall incredibly fast too. Link is top 5 in fastfall speed I think. He's still gonna be able to juggle you pretty successfully though. Zair is nice against Fox, but don't miss. Fox dies early, but getting the hits in on him to get him to kill range can be a chore.

DON'T let up. My brother has a nasty Fox, and I've gone from being in a position to amazingly almost three-stocking him (thank you, SD) to losing before. If you're winning handily, you still have to play your guts out because Fox can erase any lead you build with a few gimps off the edge.

This matchup is pretty much death for Link. There's no way it's any better for Link than 65:35. 70:30 sounds pretty good to me.

 

[quirkynature]

Tethering the edge is a horrible idea. Don't do it if he's in a position to attempt an edgeguard at all (you're not invincible til you reach the edge and my brother salivates at the thought of shining me when I try this).

Pressing Z twice to tether very quickly won't work, either? The way Link ledgegrab gimps characters by pressing Z twice? I've NEVER played a Fox, so I have absolutely no idea about this matchup.

 

[Ryos4]

If fox is the one whos recovering and your trying to edge hog him with Z edge hog. It works for his Up special but not so much his side special as the timing is a little harder.

Buf if your recovering yourself. Zair recovery is not going to work against a fox unless he lets you.

 

[quirkynature]

I Zair recovery is not going to work against a fox unless he lets you.

That's what I want to know: how? Gimp me with a reflector? F-air gimping?