[Left 4 Scum] Game Over: Scum Win

[KevinM]

Agreed on taking all the time we can on D1. But I just kinda don't like NLs. I feel like we can nail scum D1.

 

[Xiivi]

No lynch is dumb. We're survivors, not expendable vanillas. Bandwagons are good we need pressure + voting patterns. Not people like Gheb hoping around from inactive to inactive in every post all of D1 and pretending he's doing something.

Waiting on the sidelines until "you're 100% positive" is going to get us nowhere and will probably result in you getting killed for not making any connections. Let's be productive and pressure the players who've set off alarms, and see what that gets us instead of going in 10 directions at once with little miniwagons on inactives.

 

[The Marsh King]

holler

also town by "taking our time" how about for once we not have that be "scramble days before deadline to get a majority" like we always do

marshy

 

[KevinM]

Wait actually I completely disagree with No lynching.

We are all vanilla's from what I understand. So we wouldn't benefit at all.

 

[Circus]

I don't think more people should hop on Ronike for now.

Agreeing with this for now. I may be persuaded to lynch Ronike at the end of the Day, if it comes to that, but I don't think he's the play today and the people who have been wagoning him recently are just coasting under the bar (McFox, Sold2). Clearly we need to look at other players if we're going to get to anymore helpful discussion. Keeping down the path a lot of people seem comfortable being on, I fear we're just going to settle into an easy lynch that isn't going to tell us anything.

Apparently even Ronike disagrees with this ideology, but I personally prefer to keep talkative players around. The more players we have around who are going to cause and contribute to discussion, the higher the chance of seeing some legitimate slips.

Will be back a bit later to say something actually meaningful, hopefully.



P. S. No no lynches.

 

[Kataefi]

D1 lynching imo I find to be really tricky because everyone starts on the same line and it's difficult to gauge who is and isn't suspicious. I'm suspicious of Ronike but that's because a) I've never played a mafia game with him before so I don't know what his playstyle's like and b) I think he's too jumpy

I just get the impression that D1 lynches are really hard to gauge - like they're almost random and people quickly bandwagon just to get it over.

I don't agree with a no lynch. I agree that it can be a safe thing to do in terms of avoiding that mislynch scenario but I think pushing for a lynch and looking at the night actions of who was incapacitated will reveal more information.

The problem is that a mislynch situation will put a lot of pressure for us to get it right on Day 2 and with so many players in the game I think mislynching might come across frequently if scum play well. But yeah... still disagree with a no lynch.

/mytakeonit

 

[#HBC | Mac]

no lynch is terrible

/end discussion

 

[Ronike]

Katae, I don't think you've played a mafia game with like half these people, so that john is inadequate.

As for the jumpiness, I already explained its mostly due to RL johns.

@Vyse: I agree we should be out of RVS, but we pretty much are already. And like I said, this isn't a normal game, we have TONS to go on, just based on incaps. So we will be going in far from blind. No I won't explain, think for yourself.

As for a no lynch... I'm more up for it than usual, but I still would rather not.

 

[Circus]

Missed this before.

First of all, a quick lynch without MUCH discussion is a bad idea. We need to wait til everybody has some kind of record to be held accountable for here, otherwise the knowledge we get from tommorrow will be for naught.

What is the point of tommorrow if we have nothing to go on? If the day quickly, we'd start tommorrow still in a half RVS, half shooting in the dark play. I would really like to transition into informed arguements before we enter day 2.

@Circus: Do you disagree?

Not really, no. My stance from the beginning has pretty much been that we should utilize Day 1 as well as we can by getting a feel for all of the players. I'm not really sure why you posed this question to me and Ronike, because I think we're two of the people who have already most clearly stated our opinions on that (in opposite directions).

Though I don't know that I agree with the idea that we'd start Day 2 in "half RVS." Once we have incaps, I definitely think real discussion will create itself, to a degree.

Vyse, how do you feel about Sold2? Do you think the votes on him are justified? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere; I'm just curious.

@Xiivi: Where's the love? First Monster Island, now here? I'm just your wagon guinea pig, aren't I?

 

[Kataefi]

Ronike put a and b together!

But yeah... I'm not really suspicious of anyone enough to vote just yet.

 

[mentosman8]

To the current no lynch discussion, I completely disagree with the idea. While it does hurt whoever we lynch, the town as a whole doesn't stand to lose much from any given lynch with us all being survivors. Also, this game could potentially move very fast. If scum finds a way to coordinate, we could potentially have 3 night kills EVERY NIGHT before we lynch scum. This means we're in LYLO at MUCH different numbers than usual(much higher ratios of town-scum), and the longer we let scum live the quicker we see the game hurtle toward endgame. With no PR's to investigate and find scum, this means it's up to us and we NEED to take advantage of the one power we have as much as possible.

 

[mentosman8]

Demanding to be unvoted twice = clear

Unvote

Double unvote

Sorry, brah. Didn't know you were town.

Hey, you used the same word I did! That's... actually, kinda weird.

I didn't comment on this when Mayling proposed it before because I figured it was obv. silly, but since others seem to find value in it, let me try to squash it quick.

The rhyming thing is null. Cello apperently rhymed in the confirmation stage, I rhymed in the confirmation stage without even really noticing I did it, and then I rhymed again in RVS (this time, noticing that I did so and joking around with it). I do not see how this could possibly be an effective way for mafia to breadcrum anything to each other, especially since I directed attention toward one of my rhymes out in the open. That's pretty much contradictory to the idea of breadcruming. Not that I'm not glad people are looking for that kind of thing; I'm actually super happy to see that. But let's look for real stuff.

Seriously? This is Tom we're talking about. Was breaking the game through a roleclaim ever going to work? The scum in this game are infected survivors. They were normal people with lives before the zombie apocalypse, just like the rest of us. Not only would I expect Tom to provide safe claims for the mafia, I actually think it makes less sense for him not to do so, flavor-wise. The more I look at you, Ronike, the more it looks like you're trying to psuedo-town it up.

Though I do agree that we shouldn't massclaim because I don't want to wait around for 17 people to claim **** that isn't going to be helpful to us anyway. So, back to using D1 to our advantage or whatever it is I said.

Vote: FrozenFlame because you're scary and hard to read and I don't want to follow the Gheb wagon because I'm not a robot sheep conformist douchebag.

Slight ninja by Medi. I forgot you were even in this game.

Well, I just looked through all the posts so far, and a couple things I've found to take note of. Pythag and Cello are both posting a LOT of lines, which could be used to confuse hidden breadcrumbs. The other things I noticed are in the quotes above. In the first, the way the lines are broken up the phrase downward reads "Dud(e)s", in the second, the first letter of the first 3 paragraphs spells "hit," and after the T the first person named is Cello. Going further down, the next paragraph starts with S (HITS), next player mentioned Ronike. The final 3 paragraphs I can't see as being a possible breadcrumb, but TVS rounds it out. These are the only noticeable capital letter and/or line by line words that I can make out. May be looking for things too hard, but found both of these facts to stand out.

 

[The Marsh King]

Ronike put a and b together!

But yeah... I'm not really suspicious of anyone enough to vote just yet.

then come vote with me/kevin/ronike/xiivi/whoever for a while

unvote: gheb vote: circus

marshy

 

[#HBC | Mac]

hahah mentos interesting observation.

 

[McFox]

I like it

Unvote: Vote: Circus

My brain has difficulty processing this many players in one game, so I'm probably going to end up wagoning more than usual. Feel free to hold it against me.

 

[The Marsh King]

My vote was sitting on Vyse because I felt it was the same difference if I was to just leave it sitting there. One vote does not matter, in my opinion. Vyse is no where close to getting lynched.

you should almost always vote your pick for the scummiest person. leaving a lone vote on someone for a long time and contributing little else sometimes makes it look like you're a scumbag trying to look productive. we want to know where your head's at. if you don't like a certain wagon then make a new one you do like to compete

ronike? i thought you'd be interacting with your wagoners more

marshy

 

[Circus]

hahah mentos interesting observation.

It actually really is. I'm kind of astounded you've already begun putting so much effort into finding this stuff, Mentos. However (not that you have any reason to just take my word on this), you're mistaken.

But this does lead me to a thought. If I were scum, and that had actually been a breadcrumb which my scumbuddies had picked up on, that plan would probably be scrapped now. A smart scum team would likely avoid whoever was name dropped in the crumbs in order to deflect suspicion away from their buddy now that they've seen that a townie has picked up on it, would they not? In the future, it might be better to hang on to that information until the following Day to see if the alleged breadcrumbs actually have any relevance to the people who were incap'd. Then, if they match up, you can spring the evidence on the town. Seems like a more effective strategy to me, especially since this particular game has a lower chance of instant, overnight death than other mafia games.

 

[Chaco]

I'll attempt to catch up later. Before I leave tomorrow morning hopefully.

I'll be gone for 3 days(?) more after tomorrow.

 

[mentosman8]

If I found something of the sort D2/later, that's exactly what I would do Circus. However, with it being D1, it's hard to make a legitimate case on someone, and not a terrible idea to point out possible breadcrumbing as scummy behavior because, well, we need to find scum quick, and early D1 would be a very unsurprising time for scum to try to sneak something through, and I felt the potential benefit of getting a scum lynch D1(which severely alters the way the game plays out) was bigger than the benefit of mislynch-->seeing if the hit followed-->mislynch again if a scum targetted that person and it turned out to be coincidence, not breadcrumbing.)

 

[Ronike]

I'm not participating with my wagoners more because that would be defending myself. And to defend myself, the wagoners actually have to have a point. Which they don't. So I'm not gonna defend myself. If you don't like what I'm suggesting you can lynch me.

 

[Xiivi]

Lynch Circus then lynch Ronike.

Or the other way around.

Maybe throw Gheb in there too.

Just lynch them all in any order, they need to die.

Yay Circus wagon is sex.

I did not breadcrumble there I had too many drinks. LOMJYI means nothing. Please don't kill me scum for finding you so fast, I deserve to win. Circus trying to reference an on-going game where I am also wagoning him where neither of us have our alignments confirmed was awful, especially when he buddied everyone else. He needs to die. I am a hard-*** worker at the Bureau of Motor Vehicles and I am view this as a chance to let out my pent up anger. Hell yeah my role is cooler than Kev's.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Unvote Ronike

Thank you for the advice, Marshy.(where is your other head?)
I personally believe that Ronike had just made mistakes. Like Pythag said earlier, Ronike is scummy because he has talked a lot. I don't feel particularly strong about Ronike being scum, but even if he was, I think we'd have a much easier time spotting him than any scum that isn't contributing. This also goes for townies, I'd prefer that we have more talkative townies later in the game than those who don't contribute.

About the no lynching. That has a lot to do with how many infected and how many survivors are left. I could see it being a good idea if there was only 1 or 2 infected left, depending on who's been attacked how many times.

Why is it a common trend for you guys to vote without attaching a reason? I was looking over the votes, and a lot of the time, I've just seen Unvote so-and-so, Vote so-and-so.
Townies have two weapons, their vote and their brain. Half a townie's job is to find the scum. The other half is to convince everyone else why you think they're scum.

Also, as for the Circus thing. Very good spot, MentosMan. I think it's interesting that the paragraph that started with the T in HIT was talking about breadcrumbing. Specifically, the line:
"Not that I'm not glad people are looking for that kind of thing; I'm actually super happy to see that. But let's look for real stuff."
It'd make a lot of sense to me if Circus was trying to tip off that the post had a secret message to the other scum. It's also interesting that the "DUDS" message was written shortly after Macman mentioned how scum might try and use breadcrumbing like that. It'd be a really really bad coincidence for all of this to be true without it being purposeful.
Vote Circus


Vyse, what do you think happened to Sold1?

If anybody wants to look for cookiecrumbs here, I spelt out Utawavi! You can shorten this to Utaw! Which would be a very countryish way of saying Utah. Or maybe I'm trying to explain that my avi(avatar) is about Utaw(Utah)?

 

[Circus]

If I found something of the sort D2/later, that's exactly what I would do Circus. However, with it being D1, it's hard to make a legitimate case on someone, and not a terrible idea to point out possible breadcrumbing as scummy behavior because, well, we need to find scum quick, and early D1 would be a very unsurprising time for scum to try to sneak something through, and I felt the potential benefit of getting a scum lynch D1(which severely alters the way the game plays out) was bigger than the benefit of mislynch-->seeing if the hit followed-->mislynch again if a scum targetted that person and it turned out to be coincidence, not breadcrumbing.)

Fair point. I see the benefit. Still, I feel like the odds of that kind of match up being a coincidence and therefore causing a D2 mislynch are pretty slim considering how many players are in this game. I don't know, maybe I'm just biased because I'm looking at this from the inside right now.

Unvote since it ain't doin' **** on Frozen.

Vote: Cello_Marl Maybe you'll play with me.

I think everyone here is preoccupied with trying to balance not attracting attention to themselves in order to avoid being capped with the urge to talk, and not getting hit is winning out. But, the more you are helping out, then you are more likely to be the one we uncap.

You said this back in post 81 and have only posted once more (post 104) since then. You think you're gonna get saved if you get incapacitated tomorrow?

Also, as for the Circus thing. Very good spot, MentosMan. I think it's interesting that the paragraph that started with the T in HIT was talking about breadcrumbing. Specifically, the line:
"Not that I'm not glad people are looking for that kind of thing; I'm actually super happy to see that. But let's look for real stuff."
It'd make a lot of sense to me if Circus was trying to tip off that the post had a secret message to the other scum.

I actually think it's funny that you say this, because that was something I had thought would aid in my defense (assuming I might really have to defend that). It would make no sense for scum to breadcrumb in a post where they specifically draw attention to the idea of breadcrumbing because that, in turn, would heighten the chances of the town picking up the crumbs. I see no reason for smart scum to risk that, because their scum buddies should already be looking for crumbs from their partners. They wouldn't need to hint like that. Or, at least, I feel like they wouldn't. Different perspectives, I guess.

 

[McFox]

Pythag is in this game?!?!

I don't believe you.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Breadcrumbing theory is interesting. I'll probably take some time to look into it a bit myself and see how feasible I really think it is.

Sorry about the lack of contribution. TBQH, I'm really just stuck trying to figure out how I would play as infected. It's a pretty big part of how I scumhunt and I've really no idea how I would approach Day 1 as infected.

Not particularly enthused by the Ronike wagon. It's not really getting much out of him.

 

[KevinM]

Frozen is the BSN!

 

[The Marsh King]

Then frozen just jump on the circus wagon

~kk

 

[Pythag]

Pythag is in this game?!?!

I don't believe you.

...is this a comment of shock, or are you making a commentary on my activity?
because I asked you a question earlier in the game...

 

[The Marsh King]

(breadcrumb stuff)

(breadcrumb stuff)

isn't it better to hunt for those after we find out which innocents were incapped?

marshy

 

[McFox]

Little of both. Just making fun Pyth.

 

[mentosman8]

Marshy, as I explained above, I felt that D1, especially early D1, was one of the strongest times for scum to try to breadcrumb their targets, and as I'm not sure we'll get some solid info I felt pointing out potential breadcrumbs will give us something to fall back on if we don't. After today, there's definitely reason to keep anything we catch secret until we find out if it seems accurate, but for now every bit of potential info helps us get an idea of what to do D1.

 

[Xiivi]

Is there a reason you're not on the Circus wagon right now mentos?

 

[Kataefi]

I don't understand the circus wagon yet... I'm reading up on stuff though but is there a solid reason as to why everyone's voting him?

Surely macman's been a lot more unhelpful? His posts... there's nothing too them imo, sorry.

 

[mentosman8]

It's still pretty short into D1 Xiivi, and I want to make sure we make as informed a decision as we can. With the fact that claims don't mean anything in this game, I feel like with-holding my vote to do my part in making that result a reality. Also, until we get another vote-count I'm not sure how many votes he's built up and don't want to unintentionally hammer him.

 

[Pythag]

Mentos, I kinda feel that we won't know breadcrumming until D2. My reason being that right now, scum don't know each other, and the only thing they can do really is allude to who they're going to attack.

Now the problem with this, is if we keep searching out breadcrumming (and I'm not dissuading it, this is just kinda my thought process) is that 1) then scum will change their targets and then nullify whatever we may have picked up on.

OR

they could also know what we're searching for and then do the opposite of everything they're alluding to.
which, while that wouldn't allow them to "communicate" they wouldn't get caught.

Please correct me if I'm not making logical sense, but I myself am thinking it better to not post so much on what may be breadcrumming.

 

[mentosman8]

First of all, why are you thinking scum don't know eachother right now? Scum always know who the other scum are, not to mention it was clearly stated in the rules: The informed minority faction (normally the mafia) is the infected, who know who each other are but are not allowed to communicate with each other.

Now, as to your second point, while there are benefits to delaying potential breadcrumbs(which I have given my reason for not doing), if we call out anything that looks like a readable breadcrumb, we destroy the mafia's ONLY way to communicate. Since they can't talk outside of the thread, if they realize we are catching breadcrumbs, they're going to be forced to stop, and if that's the case they will be forced to act completely independently which is much better for the town.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Mentos

I can see the advantage of pointing out such breadcrumbs asap as it leaves the infected with no means to communicate. However, I'd still agree that it's something to keep in mind for later rather than pointing it out right away. Take note of it but make the information only available on D2 with confirmed innocents and more examples/indicators of potential breadcrumbs. That would be a lot more effective. Now that this has been pointed out it's very, very unlikely to see any kind of breadcumbs from this point onwards, which could've been strong material to support a scumtell later in the game. While you destroyed a possible way for scum to communicate you also alarmed them of something that could've worked out for us perfectly well.

 

[mentosman8]

As I have said, it gives us something to look at today. Furthermore, while it can be used for scumtells there are still numerous ways to breadcrumb incaps that we can catch, but also destroying the simplest breadcrumb possibility early in D1 cuts off the easiest way for scum to talk. A major part of this game's balance is the fact that scum can't communicate, the more we force that the better, while still leaving an avenue open for us to be able to catch that secret communication benefits us multiple ways.

 

[Circus]

Is there a reason you're not on the Circus wagon right now mentos?

Hey, Xiivi, wanna start actually being productive for a second? Wagons are fun and all, but I don't see you doing jack**** outside of bullying other people into voting me. I don't expect you to drop the wagon since you apparently still expect me to crack somehow (and I'm sure I'm probably only, like, halfway to a lynch), but there are 16 other players for you to look at in this game. Let's try walking while we chew this gum, shall we?

 

[Pythag]

First of all, why are you thinking scum don't know eachother right now? Scum always know who the other scum are, not to mention it was clearly stated in the rules: The informed minority faction (normally the mafia) is the infected, who know who each other are but are not allowed to communicate with each other.

Now, as to your second point, while there are benefits to delaying potential breadcrumbs(which I have given my reason for not doing), if we call out anything that looks like a readable breadcrumb, we destroy the mafia's ONLY way to communicate. Since they can't talk outside of the thread, if they realize we are catching breadcrumbs, they're going to be forced to stop, and if that's the case they will be forced to act completely independently which is much better for the town.

Ah you're right. I got mixed up. carry on!