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[Left 4 Scum] Game Over: Scum Win

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Just would like to point out that even though you imply you want to lynch inactives, you have managed to throw suspicion on 3/4 people who can hardly be called inactive and just so happen to be 4 of the better players in the game.

1. Cello_Marl
3. Chaco
7. KevinM
9. Mayling
11. Mediocre
13. Pythag
15. Sold2
17. Vyse

What about them?
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Just would like to point out that even though you imply you want to lynch inactives, you have managed to throw suspicion on 3/4 people who can hardly be called inactive and just so happen to be 4 of the better players in the game.

1. Cello_Marl
3. Chaco
7. KevinM
9. Mayling
11. Mediocre
13. Pythag
15. Sold2
17. Vyse

What about them?
KevinM is already on my list and Pythag doesn't strike me as particular inactive. The others can all die although Frozen has made significantly less input than any of them. In fact he made none at all. I can think of examples where any of the guys you mentioned posted something substantial. Frozen didn't do anything in that regard -- check it yourself if you don't believe me.

:059:
 

Kataefi

*smoke machine*
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
igloo
@Kev:
You're right to bring up gheb btw! Despite him naming 3 candidates, it's something to think about. There's also Circus who has pinpointed 4 lurkers, and I have a theory but I can't flaunt it right now... I'm waiting for something to be revealed in the next Day!

I'm focusing currently on you though because you asked EVERYONE... therefore you were in direct communication with town AND scum... the little information on players only makes me try to assess for what underlying purpose your questions were based on - scum or town?

So right now:

#396: I think that post hasn't really done anything for me rethinking you, sorry. It's interesting that you asked everyone, and the moment people picked up on it as a potential method of scum communication, everyone's now gone quiet =p That's more an observation than a point I'm trying to make though.

I just think it was a bit of bad move. I see more scum benefits than town ones. I don't like putting scum in a position to pseudo-frame the town... set people up... deliberately infect a townie's list of suspicions, which when baited by you were usually a list of 4 suspicions (happily ties in with the possibility of 4 scum members).

I thought of the potential consequences that could happen if I answered your question really specifically. I could have given my 4 names quite happily on who I want on my team etc etc... I just felt that could compromise my position in the town. What if scum coordinate to infect the people I've just happened to list? Or infect the people I haven't listed? This applies to everyone you asked. It's something that could be made to look bad in either scenario. Town can really only speculate with the lack of PRs, and infections give scum a tool that can very easily setup speculation.
_

@Circus:
That's very fair circus. I'm generally like this though. I'm just asserting that this Day seems to be fragile and vulnerable to a quick wagon, people are quick to change their minds. I want to make sure I'm not the one being wagoned - I prefer getting to the cause than the effects - Xiivi's accusations ARE potential causes that could make people think twice about me... cue a wagon. Particularly if the reasons are ones I don't agree with - that would make me wrongfully lynched. I just try to deal with the root of a problem before it snowballs into something less manageable for me. I apologise if this gives off mixed messages.
_

Dear Lurkers...

Where are you all?!
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Nah man, I prefer to wagon the scumbags rather than the GGs.

Unvote Vote: McFox
 

mentosman8

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
153
Location
Naperville, IL
I'm sorry I haven't posted as much in this game lately. In all honesty a lot of that is due to this game being so remarkably different from normal that I'm still trying to come up with the best way to scumhunt. Without mafia conversation, it does affect scumhunting pretty largely. Usually they converse and come up with a big picture, whereas in this game they are all forced to act like separate SKs who are working together.

Regardless, for now, my vote is staying on Frozen. It was a pressure vote, but I have yet to see anything from him, and don't have a solid enough suspect for me to push, so until I get a case on someone I feel it's a fine place to leave my vote.
 

mentosman8

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
153
Location
Naperville, IL
Yes, I am serious. I don't have a solid enough suspect at the moment that I would strongly want to see lynched, and with the mechanics of this game I would both rather A. no lynch than mislynch and B. use information gathered from night than try to push a lynch solely for information. The mechanics are so much different, and night so much more useful to town, I don't feel as pressured to get a lynch and gain info if it's wrong, because I feel we gain either way, and I really don't feel like lynching someone on mild suspicions in a game that can potentially be extremely tight on town.
 

The Marsh King

Marshy|Karthik_King
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
6
Location
stompin' some scum
The mechanics are so much different, and night so much more useful to town, I don't feel as pressured to get a lynch and gain info if it's wrong, because I feel we gain either way, and I really don't feel like lynching someone on mild suspicions in a game that can potentially be extremely tight on town.
you see nothing wrong with the bolded?
 

mentosman8

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
153
Location
Naperville, IL
Not really, this game doesn't punish us as much for no lynching like normal games. At this point, the votes are so spread out it appears there aren't very many people who are in agreement on who to lynch, and I would rather not put a sloppy lynch together to hopefully try to find something(which may end up not yielding anything, as at this point it would be a major scramble to compromise on a lynch, and would be such a quick wagon to accomplish it wouldn't likely tell us anything), instead being willing to see who gets incap'd and have guaranteed accurate info to help us.
 

McFox

Spread the Love
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Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Messages
18,783
Location
Visiting from above.
Kat said:
I'm just asserting that this Day seems to be fragile and vulnerable to a quick wagon, people are quick to change their minds.
You keep saying this, but I have yet to see a wagon on anyone, aside from the one on Circus that didn't last.

Additionally, I think most of the stuff people brought up against Kevin is complete BS. As Kev pointed out, a smart mafia for the first night would just act independently, incap whoever they felt like, and let the town waste all their time accusing people of coordinating when they're not even trying to. Look at all the suspicion that's been thrown Kev's way due to his asking pointed questions. "Yeah Kev, why are you telling your mafia buddies who to incap?!" Give me a break. The mafia don't really need to coordinate tonight. It actually works out to their favor tonight to all incap separate targets. This gives them 3 kills by the end of tomorrow! And the lynch pool will still be high enough tomorrow (12 people, if we've got 4 incaps who are clear) that the incapped people won't be able to help as much as they could later in the game.

And now here comes the suspicion. "Why are you telling mafia what to do?!" Accuse me of anything you want to. The fact of the matter is that today's stagnation didn't come from Kev, it came from the people accusing Kevin of trying to coordinate with scum, and people's refusal to answer his questions, or comment on what was going on before he asked them (me vs. Ronike, mostly). Once Kev asked those questions, most people shut up completely due to fear that Kev was trying to coordinate.

We have a perfectly good lynch candidate, because Ronike is scum. Hell, even if you believe Ronike's entire countercase against me (which consists of OH MY GOD YOU SUCK), then go ahead and lynch me! Then when I turn up town, lynch Ronike.

Also, if Ronike turns up scum, I'd look very closely at his interactions with Circus, even as he voted him. Just saying.
 

McFox

Spread the Love
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Visiting from above.
*EBWOP* Also, most (all) of the suspicion that's been thrown Circus' way today comes from accusations of him trying to coordinate.

Also, if mafia incapped separate targets tonight, that's a lynch pool of 14, not 12. So even less in our favor.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
2,031
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Finals are over on thursday but I'll be posting in this game and Monster Island today. Weekend project was Newbie and Mafia Tournament, today's is catching up in my other two. Bear with me. >_<
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Really Marshy? You go from thinkin KevinM is suspicious and McFox is his best friend to me? The only one who managed to answer an overly specific question in a way that doesn't give scum oodles of info and/or coordinations opportunities? Seems odd.

At any rate, I completely agree with you McFox. Scum wants to hit four different people tonight. Which is why they need to coordinate. Let's just assume for a moment that there are 6 clear incap targets (which there aren't). Without coordination, chances are 50% that someone will hit the same person as someone else. That's only taking into account a small pool of people! There aren't 6 clears. Hell, it's pushin it to say there's two. So how would mafia know who needs to go after the clears and who needs to go after the other least scummy players? Coordination. Which is what you did when Kevin gave you the chanc by spitting out names. Not general concepts of what types ofpeople you'd incap. Full blown names. At best, you've given mafia some good ideas of who to incap. At worst, you've told your scum buddies who you are going to incap. Not pro town either way.

That's why we need to lynch McFox. Even if you ignore the fact that he's trying to nail me o the cross for his same sins, that's still enough tolynch in my book.
 

McFox

Spread the Love
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Joined
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Messages
18,783
Location
Visiting from above.
You keep accusing me of hypocrisy, which I've already demonstrated is an out-and-out lie. Besides Ronike, even you are able to convince town that I SUCK, I'm just going to flip town, and where's that going to leave you?
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Hey, just cause I'm not trying to use associative psychology doesn't mean I'm not town. And yes, I do realize the irony of this statement.
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
24,020
Location
Grancypher
Vote Count:
[5] Not Voting (Chaco, Vyse, Mayling, Macman , Pythag)
[4] Ronike (frozenflame, McFox, The Marsh King, KevinM)
[2] frozenflame751 (mentosman8, Gheb_01)
[1] Circus (Mediocre)
[1] Gheb_01 ( Xiivi)
[1] KevinM (Kataefi)
[1] mentosman8 (Cello_Marl)
[1] McFox (Ronike)
[1] Cello_Marl (Circus)
[1] Xiivi (Handorin)
[0] Handorin ()
[0] Macman ()
[0] Kataefi ()
[0] Pythag ()
[0] Vyse ()
[0] Mayling ()
[0] Chaco ()
[0] Mediocre ()
[0] The Marsh King ()

With 18 players alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
A deadline has been set for Wednesday, December 16th, Noon EST.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Sorry about inactivity. I've been devoting my time to the National Smash tournament I just wrapped up this past weekend. Between setting up the day before and dropping people off at the airport today, I've not had 4-5 days to myself 3 of which I wasn't even at home for.

I'll read up and get back to this sometime today/tonight.
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
2,031
Location
Albuquerque, NM
First of all, Unvote.

This Day 1 sucks. All I'm reading is a ton of empty debate surrounding speculation of what that optimal infect strat is and how the town should act to prevent the different scenarios that people are arguing over which of them is more dire. That's a major reason why I'm having such a hard time reading people in this game; most of the debate isn't necessarily about what people are doing that is scummy, but what the scum would even want to do during day/night in the first place. In case most of you haven't realized, all the town has done today so far is run around like chicken's with their heads cut off debating fundamentally WIFOM issues.

We really need to go through a night phase before this game kicks off. This is something I'm thoroughly convinced of. My initial conclusion after reading everything was that we need to lynch someone who, if incapped and thus cleared tomorrow, will likely contribute the least in such an important position. It seems to me like these are the people the infected would ideally target from an infected PoV. By incapping people you're clearing them for a minimum of one day, so it would be in your best interested to keep players that are good contributors from being cleared as long as possible to as to keep people from trusting one another. I know that this conclusion seems awfully self-indicting considering my abysmal level of contribution in the game thus far, but all I can do is honestly say that I argue this notion under the hope (i.e. lofty assumption) that the rest of you would have faith in me being more productive once we get out of the mucky, ****ty day one BS.

Considering how ****ty my reads are today, my list of potential list candidates is pretty large. If I were to lynch someone based on their lack of utility IMO as a cleared townie, I'd have to go with any of the followig: Pythag, Mayling, Vyse, Kataefi, Xiivi. Nothing personal, but I just feel like I'd be able to learn the least from anything they'd have to say as a cleared town player.

On another important note though, I would like to see some more discussion about KevinM's laundry list of questions. Here are a few of my thoughts on the matter:

The list seems entirely too non-uniform. Creating such a list could easily be a guise under which questions to an infected's partners could be tailored in a specific or patterned way in order to facilitate night choice coordination. Kevin's lack of focus on the non-response of the vast majority of players bt heightened focus on what he deems "cop-out" answers makes me think that he's really only concerned with the answers of a few players, while the other questions were just "filler questions" so to speak, created entirely for the purpose of filling a list so as to prevent attention from being drawn to key individuals who are really the object of Kevin's attention. Furthermore, Kevin's substantial post detailing much of what he "would" do as an infected player REALLY rubs me the wrong way. It seems entirely too "gambity". Not only is it complete WIFOM, but it also just seems entirely too phony and serves no real pro-town purpose. I can't really think of any reason to justify going to such great lengths to establish what one would do as a mafia faction player barring attempting to use it as a WIFOM gambit to establish a more pro-town aura.

While ultimately playing Kevin's game makes me feel uneasy, I would like to engage in some more discussion concerning it. I guess I'll start by answering the questions directed at me:

KevinM said:
4. frozenflame751: You realize a game in which you can't die N1 makes me very wary of you correct? Do you plan on playing more like cop Frozenflame in which you make little posts but they're usually filled with a lot of concise content, or with no fear of dying do you plan on playing towards what we're more accustomed to?
No, I don't realize that nor do I understand why. Me being targeted at night will do just as good a job at revealing my alignment as me dying, except the potential benefit is if only one or two infected target me, I'll stay alive and be able to help everyone out as a confirmed survivor. Why this game's specific mechanics would make you any more wary of me simply escapes me.

As far as how I plan on playing is concerned, I plan on being about as involved as I typically am. I am very much of the opinion that discussion surrounding who to save from incap in coincidence with lynch discussion with the help of any and all confirmed townies is going to be the true core of this game, and is where the town is going to learn the most and perform the most effective scum hunting. I don't think our Day 1 situation is optimal for scumhunting and thus far its on goings have only served to further convince me of that. As such, you can expect me to be playing with greater investment once this day is over with.

Anyway, I guess the final question ends up being, KevMo wagon or utility based lynch? Pretty open to both atm but I'm sure you guys will have plenty to say to help me choose.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
How long till deadline?

Unvote

Frozen brings up a good point that I - as you might have guessed already - agree with. Now's the time to rid us of players with little input or players that are notoriously inactive. Having them as confirmed townies doesn't help us all that much. Rather that than mislynching an active player who might get confirmed later in the game as town and whom we know to be reliable.

Vote Mediocre

:059:
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Hmm... Frozen does bring up a good point about the inactives.... Why take away someone who could be helpful when we have such a plethora of people that aren't so?

If only for that reason alone, I say go with an inactive rather than Kev. I'll think about who I want later.

Unvote
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
13,625
Location
Sickboi in the 401
Would much rather lynch Pythag then Ronike if anyone is interested in that wagon.

Anyone that didn't answer my questions is on my scum list as potential scum trying to seem townie by avoiding potentially "dangerous" questions.

Frozen, a player wanted me to answer all the players I directed at other players, I did so, there's no gambit behind it.
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
Would much rather lynch Pythag then Ronike if anyone is interested in that wagon.

Anyone that didn't answer my questions is on my scum list as potential scum trying to seem townie by avoiding potentially "dangerous" questions.

Frozen, a player wanted me to answer all the players I directed at other players, I did so, there's no gambit behind it.
Sold2 didn't answer, and I can't answer.
 

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
20,342
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somewhere near Mt. Ebott
unvote: Deadline is in less than 24 hours.

Code:
  Who Posted?
Total Posts: 430
User Name 	Posts
Ronike 	59
KevinM 	43
Macman 	34
McFox 	32
The Marsh King 	31
Xiivi 	29
Circus 	28
Gheb_01 	26
Kataefi 	24
mentosman8 	21
Pythag 	17
Mayling 	13
Tom 	12
Chaco 	11
Handorin 	10
Vyse 	9
Sold2 	7
frozenflame751 	7
Cello_Marl 	6
Scumfever 	4
Mediocre 	4
Rockin 	1
Omni 	1
Marshy 	1
Show Thread & Close Window
Sad to see I'm grouped as useless when Chaco/Cello/Medi apparently aren't. Oh well.

Based on the people from Frozen's non-util pool, Kataefi/Vyse I think would be better lynches. vote: Kataefi
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
I'm pretty sure Frozen isn't basing "usefulness" on "number of posts"
The only thing that I would argue against you frozen is that I don't really like view of utility especially since you have been claiming on having trouble getting leads.
I think it could be safe to assume that we all are having issues, and therefore I think that kinda messes your argument.
(yes, I know I got on Mcfox's *** because of his claim that this game was throwing him off earlier, but, I have since joined another mafia game and merely rereading the thread showed me the difference between a normal game and this one. Night and day.)

With that being said, this isn't me getting pissed cause I'm useless in your eyes (or at least on your list), I agree, I haven't done much, but really, what CAN we do? We only really have suspicions that may or may not hold water, and its from these shaky arguments that we're forming even more rickety bandwagons.

The 2 most suspicious things in this game IMO are

1. Ronike's knowledge of how many scum.
2. Kevin's questions.

Both can be written off as non scummy though.
In a LFD game, it could be easy to just "know" that there are 4 scum. Also in a large game, it would be safe to assume a larger number of scum.

Kevin's questions however, strike me as questions, with varrying levels of danger.
For some, [read:Ronike] listing who you believe you have on your side could be potentially harming for you.
For me, I don't think it mattered either way to scum wether I said if I thought you were clear or not.
It didn't seem to me that it was an accident that certain players got more difficult questions. Those that would seem to have more utility (to use frozen's word) would get more "difficult" questions. I don't know if that's scummy, or if it is just the nature of this game, since the more active, or awesome your posts, the more you're going to be getting the limelight, and being asked more specific things.

maybe more later..I have so many projects to finish, also, deadline is tomorrow at noon. (to answer Gheb)
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
Location
Flux
EBYOP:
Oh shoot, I totally forgot about Kevin claiming. That's...strange.
Suspicious yeah, but nothing I'm finding is enough for me to come out and say "THIS is beyond a shadow of a doubt a scumtell and therefore I'm going to vote you to oblivion."
it's just that, a suspicion.
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Listing clear players tells scum which players are already clear. Since their "kills" first clear people for a day, they are going to want to aim for players that are already (mostly) clear or ones that if they are confirmed clear, will not be that useful/anymore useful once they are clear. That's why its not good to go listing clears, and also why inactives are dangerous to keep around.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
5,164
Okay, let's get this show on the road. We are not nearly as close to a lynch on anyone as we should be. I believe Ronike is closest to majority, but with only 3 votes on him and my lack of belief in him being scum, I'm willing to very, very quickly change that to a lurker if we can rally a wagon here. Mediocre it is.

vote: Mediocre

Attn Everyone: There are a lot of people who are not voting for anyone right now. With the deadline being less than a day away, that does not make me feel too good. If you are one of these people and your vote doesn't end up on someone before noon tomorrow, I'm going to be very pissy with you. Especially if we no lynch. I know we've managed to talk for two weeks without getting any clear reads, but it is my belief that lynching someone will be more beneficial than no one. Like I said before, if Mediocre (and those with a similar lack of presence in this game) isn't scum then he's just guaranteed to be a golden incap target for the real scum. Or, if he doesn't get incap'd, then we're just going to wonder if he's scum for the rest of the game because it doesn't seem like his play is going to differ much from what it is now (non-existent). So get in this game and get voting. I have finals too; no johns.
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Hmm... after thinking about it for awhile, I'd rather go for Kataefi or Vyse. And seeing how Katae actually posts...

Vote Vyse
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
5,164
Good enough for me.

Unvote

Vote: Vyse


I don't think we even have to unvote in this game if we're just gonna vote for someone else, but I'm too lazy to doublecheck right now.
 
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