Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

OF COURSE SIDEB KICK!!! REVELATION! I've been getting wrecked by the links and Mario, but I totally forgot the kick eats projectiles and still smacks pretty well.

Yeah. Marth. Ugh. I share your frustration. Imagine it in brawl. He caught bananas with attacks. It was horrible. Anyway, this is one of our few MUs where we have to play the footsie game for a long time, even after we get the lead. Here's the things I do that net me the win more often than not.

Footsies: throwing the banana on the ground or up in the air and shooting peanuts. If marty isn't running in, these things will bait him in. Otherwise, down throw backwards glidetoss for the trip if he's jumping or running in. Or fair also has close to the same range if not the same. So if you can, just knock that dude out the air and set up shop with bananas and peanuts

Option selects: after a trip, run behind north with another banana in your hand, this will pressure marth to make a rushed decision and net you another trip.

Forced shields: marth will start to wave dash pickup our stuff eventually, so since we can have threeout at a time, blast that guy with bananas and peanuts and force him into shield. You can now ssideB and grab as the mixup in between your bananas and peanuts. Also, because of how shield poking works in PM, its super hard for someone to shield a banana thrown at their feet. So use this too. Hopefully I can get a replay where I show you guys how powerful this is. Near broken stuff.

Run away: hey, if we don't do it, it gets super hard. I'd rather win while doing something I don't like than lose trying to play a preference. You don't have to run all game, throwing a random cross up nair can get you a combo and momentum, but know when to pull out. Get bananas, control the match.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Question, how does 3.0 Diddy fare against Roy and Mewtwo? From the changelist on the mainsite, it seems Diddy received quite some changes. Am still 100% looking forward maining him whenever PAL PM comes out to hope it doesn't take much longer.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Diddy wrecks m2 in my opinion. M2 has huge options, but our projectile game makes it kinda hard for m2 to gain the momentum he needs. He's still being developed himself, so we'll see how m2 deals with us once he gets some playtime.

Roy hits like a truck, so I imagine diddy can have trouble with him, unless you gain crazy momentum in match and just body roys weaknesses, force him to approach, etc.

 

[SpiderMad]

At only around 60% you have to play safe mode cus of that F-smash

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Why would you risk even taking that 60% tho without establishing a lead of your own?

 

[SpiderMad]

What? I'm still part of camp Naner. I'm just referring to my innate sense of my percent makes me killable in one hit to this character now, in agreement with "hits like a truck". What would you define as his exploitable weaknesses, what characters are similar to his fast fall weight?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Roys weaknesses? Vs diddy would be not having a projectile for one.

 

[Nausicaa]

Just do a lot of running. Roy's neutral is pretty trash, but his rewards for risks add up significantly. He'll likely gravitate to a lot of approaching, like, hail-Mary raw approaches into Side-B's, SH Aerial > Grabs, D-Tilts, raw-Grabs, etc.
60% is too high. Think more like 0% U-Throw > U-Air > F-Smash, start an edge-guard. If anything else connects, another D-Tilt > F-Air > F-Smash. Side-B 3 hitter to send you in the semi-spike miles off Stage if/when you barrel on-stage or whiff anything at 30-40%. lol

Edit: This is for like... ALL match-ups with Roy too...
Just run and punish his raw-approaches if you can. If he tries to play a Neutral-Game of DD's, with even a HINT of passive-play, awesome for you. haha

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

The thing about new bananas that should've been there from the beginning is the ability for them to be a powerful transition tool. Its good that our hits link at least for 3-4 hit combos now, but with the bananas knocking people away, our hits would never trade with the damage wed take. They were counter productive since diddy did the best at mid range situations. Now with brawl bananas, every char can not only tech trips but also use them against us, which is a more balanced projectile in terms of reward and risk for both players. And sideB hits inwards but can still be punished before we even get the grab and the DI can stop the opponent from taking massive damage. Another example of taking that risk but gaining a reasonable amount of reward for if it lands.

You've done an amazing job Guru. 3.0 diddy is extremely reasonable but extremely dangerous without proper respect from the opponent. It ain't no ivysaur tho :3

 

[SpiderMad]

I didn't understand that paragraph, they can be used against us more because of the tripping change?

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Down the road yes. Because bananas now have such an immediate reward like they do, many characters MUs against us will be about how to use bananas against diddy. Anyone who wants to beat diddy will gain a bigger understanding of item control. We as diddy players should expect it and be prepared for it

 

[AbstractLogic]

I find diddy has a pretty good time with marth if the stage is not too small. I get bopped pretty hard by Marth on like Yoshi's Story or Green Hills Zone. The run away factor is very important in the matchup

 

[GuruKid]

Haha that was almost exactly my line of thinking with the banana change, Disqo. Strong counterplay with bananas was a strong goal we had with nanners since his initial development phase, and the more immediate rewards via trip-on-hit for and against Diddy hopefully further promotes smarter item play on both the Diddy's and his opponent's end in 3.0. The premise is essentially "Sure, you can just toss the bananas away if you want to simply negate Diddy's pressure and stage control and play 'normally'... OR you can invest some effort into banana management yourself and reverse the pressure back toward Diddy if you're really crafty".

I feel like when you consider matchup possibilties we'll definitely have to consider that other character's potential with bananas as the anti-Diddy metagame grows in time.

One crewmate of mine in particular has been learning the matchup and is now starting to get a feel for banana play himself. Using AGT's as a third jump jump and placing bananas in specifc places by the ledge to more easily secure the edgeguard. The matchup is starting to turn into repeating thoughts of "hmmm should I actually take out the second banana at this point in time? Is he in a position to steal one of em and use it really well against me?" which feels great when you think of the potential metagame. I almost always go for at least 1 banana onstage against him now (keeping it on-hand or very close to me on the floor in neutral) but actually gotta think about throwing out that second one constantly.

And yeah although I generally prefer smaller stages in general (bananas gain a much more threatening presence because of the smaller size IMO), against Marth I feel I absolutely need as much room as possible to keep a certain distance and bait that one bad approach.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Small stage plus marth equals losers bracket diddy Kong.

I was playing a friend of mine last night who would go for my bananas whenever possible. It made the matches quite the mental strain, but I really felt like my wins were justified because of how hard I worked with my banana management. Also, I wanna point out that observing when people go for your bananas is a good way to land hits of your own. For example, if you pull a banana and it lands on a platform and you know they want it, don't try to beat them to the banana, just hit them as they try to steal it

 

[Arcalyth]

Go re-read the Banana Swank Style thread again Disqo we had some good discussion there and I think it's a lot more relevant now

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Aawww forgot bout that!

 

[SpiderMad]

LOL, Tripping on hit is so ridiculous and when they're on platforms is free fairs. And Dair's auto-cancel window is now easily SH'able, which it wasn't able to in a SH before, so now all his aerials are easily AC in a SH. Lastly I never have to look at that weak side-b anymore. Diddys really good now, I think him and Sonic/Lucario and all the new chars besides Olimar are gonna go hard in the paint at tournaments

 

[Nausicaa]

So the counter-banana game, the one thing I've ever been afraid of and ever had concern for, and the only thing that didn't get thoroughly elaborated on when I asked (and specified Marth in it too which was recently mentioned) when I asked about it, is now going to take a greater tole on the Diddy-game, and is becoming a topic here?
Please, somebody, elaborate on Diddy's Counter-Banana game. I must know, it is all that has ever been of significance to me in the sense that I have uncertainty in optimizing it.
DOOO EEEET
If someone gets a Banana (throws you off-stage/dodges one/whatever, and Grabs it), what alters in the game-plan from there? What priorities are shifted? What characters does Diddy go balls-to-the-wall aggressive on, and who does he run from? DYNAMICS OF THIS PLX

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Characters that have hard hitting combos and can destroy us from one poke are the chars we run from. Marth, for example, can lead combos from almost any attack. Therefore, you as the player must observe what option to take. If the marth wave dashes a lot, I wouldn't suggest just throwing bananas at him all the time. Making him approach and taking counter measures, such as spamming peanut gun and mixing in sideB/ nair when you can does wonders. After you get your situational advantage, you either keep pressure or set up shop all over again. Rinse and repeat.

Your counter banana game is something you yourself develop. Wavedashing thrown bananas, instant AGTs, shield bounce, counter attacks for when opponents chase down your nanas, etc. This is known as counter banana game. There's not exactly a set rule, it all depends on how acute your observations are when it comes to what the opponent does with bananas.

Also, I should add that if your opponent likes throwing bananas offstage, you should be pulling them nonstop in order to distract and frustrate them

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm more interested in the dynamics between when/who/what circumstances imply it's worth going in aggressively more than passive. Like, if you have high%, do you have nothing to lose when the Marth/Dedede/Samus has a Banana in hand after you get back from a ledge, so you avoid the chance they trip you and get that free kill? Or do you play more cautious and force them to try and make something happen, and bait out a Banana approach and try F-Airing through it at their face? lol

What I'm thinking when talking about Banana-game, and why it's the only thing I ever consider a personal issue, is I know that it's a very long-term thing of experiences I won't probably ever have outside of some isolated match-ups and play-styles at that, so the dynamics of the meta-game won't be developed to a point where I'll pick up on things quick enough to NOT BE PWNED by it.

For example, against Diddy, with probably close to every character, I'll eventually get a feel of the dynamics for how to play around AGAINST a Diddy that has a Banana. One day in 2 years, I'll probably be a character and get a Banana against a Diddy, and be able to abuse their lack of experiential and intuitive dynamics of the situation and take a stock for it, even the match, all because I'll have been in the situation and explored it thoroughly when maybe they haven't.


For example, in 2 years, as Diddy I may not have the dynamics down against all characters and play-styles (there's more of those than just Diddy-styles from the other side of the match-up), and I bet I'll be Diddy vs a character and they'll have a Banana(s) in a certain situation, and I'll try something and lose a stock for it, maybe even the match, and realize immediately how I could have turned 'them-with-a-Banana' to my advantage, or at least, it wouldn't have been a lost cause from such a simple ignorance.

I just prefer when it can be directly linked to my own play and decision making, my own 'Smash' you could say, when I win or lose something, and I know that the LAST thing for Diddy to come will be the last depths of comfort after exploring and becoming aware of all the knowledge/application/etc, regarding enemies-with-Bananas.
And it pisses me off... lol

Pivot U-Tilts if they try anything from a distance, charge hyper-aggressively at their face and Shield if they run at me, and hope they don't do their only guaranteed option at the optimal time towards dropping the Banana and grabbing my shield...
Therefore, I can WD out and chase them from behind if they don't throw/just DD as bait to throw from close and mean to get away, or can jump and catch + AGT or whatever the Banana/F-Air their face after if they DO throw it from close...
Game-plan, but there ARE SO MANY VARIABLES GRRR

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Its all observation and proactive thinking

 

[AbstractLogic]

Disqo and fellow brethren. This monkey has no limits. I managed to get 2nd at The Iron Price last night and I'd like to share videos for anyone to critique or hopefully pick something up from.

I had no idea how to do the marth matchup other than basics but I think this video may show a few things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnbNQvGasGM&list=PLJ_fmBeIteWfAEIAh4YW6qyLjdNjLuhQ_

This one may help in the link matchup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5fIojQ-RiM

 

[AbstractLogic]

Deletethispost

 

[SpiderMad]

How far did u drive for that one?

 

[AbstractLogic]

It was about 350 miles there and back. The winnings paid for it though.

 

[Soft Serve]

Good **** man, grats.

I'm going to hit the lab tonight/tomorrow and break out the note pad on your sets.

 

[Tmacc]

Hey guys, picked up Diddy in 3.0, hoping Metroid posts some videos from this weekend I can share with everyone

Really enjoyed the videos, AL. Dash attack off stage combos are too fun.

I really liked the banana usage, reminds me of my own. I play with a really good Link player all the time, who is very proficient at item usage (Hylian)...so I've gotten really good at every AGT trick and learning to use my bananas in unique and tricky ways. Like I said, hope to have some videos up soon.

 

[sneakytako]

I got a question about bananas.

Yesterday I was playing friendlies against diddy and I dropped one of the bananas in front of me to prevent diddy's approach and he just dashed attacked over it. I know you can't pick up items in dash attack, but is diddy's dash attack immune to banana tripping? I was not pleased.

 

[Soft Serve]

You can pick up items with his dash attack, you just imput Z when your hands go over the item. I think most dash attacks are immune to bannanas? I'm just talking out my ass though.

 

[AbstractLogic]

It's entirely possibly that diddy's hurtbox didn't overlap during the dash attack. Also he can pick them up as Soft Serve said.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Some dash attacks move the hit box over the bananas. Snake, mk, and Jiggs are good examples.
Also, GOOD **** AL! where was the tourney?

 

[AbstractLogic]

Some dash attacks move the hit box over the bananas. Snake, mk, and Jiggs are good examples.
Also, GOOD **** AL! where was the tourney?

Thanks man! I plan on doing much more work at Forte so I'm grinding hard this week now that finals and all are over. The Tourney was a monthly they do in San Antonio though.

 

[Nausicaa]

I actually got combo'd into F-Air off a Dash-Attack as I was Zelda at mid-% when it actually did some decent KB and positional shifting.
I never use that move, but it worked on me.
/Salty

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

4213 7289 1273

ADD ME IF ANY OF YOU PLAY ONLINE ASSHOLES

added logic

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Add disqo tho.

My FC is over there somewhere.

Also, xat.com/dabessdi is the place to find matches currently.

 

[AbstractLogic]

Disqo for best wifi diddy

 

[AbstractLogic]

4213 7289 1273

ADD ME IF ANY OF YOU PLAY ONLINE *******S

added logic

Added Fitemeirlfgt

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Disqo for best diddy ever on this planet except our one true one fearless leader

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

spider mad was a fgt and didn't fight me for very long because I'm using keyboard on Dolphin PM LULULULU JOHNS

 

[GuruKid]

Soooo who's going to Apex? Hoping to see a bunch of high-placing Diddy's (or at least making it out of pools lol), and I'd love to do some Diddy-o's and double Diddy team matches with you guys.