Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[GuruKid]

Shoutouts to Wrinkly. Gracing this new forum with some super serious monkey business - and discussion!

Expect an introductory guide very, very soon but in the meantime... questions or comments on the cooler Kong's playstyle? Post up!

 

[standardtoaster]

When should I be using bananas? I'm not really used to using an item play character. He seems pretty good even without using bananas much.

 

[GHNeko]

You know what I'd like to know? How do DI against this ****er.

Holy crap combo friendly my ***. More like Brawl+ combos. :mad:

 

[`dazrin]

Use bananas all the time!

No but seriously, pull them out when you're granted some space, or an opening to do so. It's really bring another dimension into the fight when you're controlling the stage with bananas. However, I find that you really have to be careful about pulling out a second one, as it can very well be used against you if you aren't watching it well enough.

You can use bananas to start combos, get grabs, or gimp people offstage. Experiment the uses of AGT and item play and you'll find that it's really a blast to play :b

 

[GHNeko]

Actually, i've grown less fearful of Bananas ever since I started wavedashing right before they hit me.

The item pick up range of certain characters when wavedashing is surprising.

 

[ELI-mination]

This character is too fun

 

[Plum]

I don't normally take out a second banana for that reason. Picking up items is extremely easy in PM; as easy as it is to control your own bananas its as easy for your opponent to get one when the second banana is out of hand no matter what. If you're just experienced at catching items then its even easier as anybody who plays against Peach regularly will surely find.
Always try to have a banana in hand though. It opens up a lot of shield pressure options with z-dropping and z-catching, and the ability to extend any combo or exploit an opening from a distance at any given time is just so good. It also opens up a slew of OOS options through glide tossing.
His moveset is almost brainless when it comes to linking together, and that does make him pretty good without bananas. Maybe relative to a Melee mid tier? Bananas are what gives him the potential to be even more though.
Always having a banana makes you harder to edgeguard as well, by both having a long range option to deter the opponent and having the ability to aerial glide toss to marginally improve your recovery distance. His AGT doesn't give him that much distance it seems relative to some others like Link who have a pretty noticeable AGT, but that little bit can make the difference.

 

[Juushichi]

Keeping a banana in hand and using popgun or just moving and controlling space is particularly powerful option. Popgun does crazy damage and KB now, compared to Brawl and every Diddy main in that game knows that keeping a 'nana in hand means that you're opening up your options at just about any time.

Especially for people who aren't familiar with the character (or people used to poorly fighting DDK in Brawl), you'd be surprised how effective [wait w/ banana in hand, shield/popgun] is (it also beats those people who want to grab your peanut on reaction). I won't go far as to say that that schema invalidates Luigi as a character like it does in Brawl... but, Luigi really has to work once Diddy has a banana in hand and is shooting popgun at him. Get used to Glide-tossing OOS and in every direction too, because they are all useful for different things. Pay attention to your opponents tech rolls and tech options, because he should absolutely terrorize characters with bad tech options like Falcon, GnW, ROB, Squirtle and the like in the tech chase game.

Get used to monkey flip, gentlemen. Seriously.

... Seriously. **** is borderline broken.

 

[Translucent]

Diddy with a banana in hand is scary. It forces opponent to wait out what Diddy's going to do with it or go in and take the risk of not getting combo'd half to death by the chimp. Monkey flip is really fun to use if you get to land on their face, and monkey kick can go through a few moves too.

I also like Dair in this game more than brawl because it's quicker, and with L-canceling it's a tad more safe to do.

 

[hamyojo]

What's the fastest way to grab a 'naner after you've thrown it?
Diddy is an extremely fast character, and when I have to spend two years throwing up a 'naner then waiting for it to fall down it really discourages me using it. Once I get it it's great, and I've found the easiest way to get one is to have a platform behind me. But even then I feel like I don't have time to set up a 'naner 'cept in between stocks.

 

[Brikmaethor]

I'm fairly certain that it's possible to throw one, short hop back and Z catch it. The timing seems rather strict, however, as I have only been able to do so once.

Alternatively, one might be able to smash down B and full jump catch the peel, but I have yet to try that.

 

[PurDi]

If I'm not mistaken, Diddy's down-b has a smash and a 'tilt' version. Right? So if you're having a hard time waiting for it to come down, you might be using the smash version and throwing it too high.

Also, can you do down-b to AGT?

Also, I know they've said Diddy can pick up bananas using his dash attack, but what's the extra input for it?

 

[Arcalyth]

If I'm not mistaken, Diddy's down-b has a smash and a 'tilt' version. Right? So if you're having a hard time waiting for it to come down, you might be using the smash version and throwing it too high.

Also, can you do down-b to AGT?

Also, I know they've said Diddy can pick up bananas using his dash attack, but what's the extra input for it?

Press Z when Diddy's hand is touching the ground, about halfway through the cartwheel. He can actually pick up any item this way, not just bananas.

 

[Plum]

Toss a banana, and short hop Z catch it, or AGT to immediately throw it, or on a platform stage toss it on to the platform and waveland/AGT-waveland (got to be a better name for that...). Those would be the fastest options, but tossing it out > do other things > wavedash over it later is good too if you can't just get it right away. Leaving a banana out in the open for a second could be risky, but sometimes its right to throw it out even if you don't have time to pick it up. The banana's presence alone exerts a degree of stage control, and forcing a trip rather than an aerial banana tech by hitting them into a grounded banana is obviously good if you can set it up.

 

[hamyojo]

If I'm not mistaken, Diddy's down-b has a smash and a 'tilt' version. Right? So if you're having a hard time waiting for it to come down, you might be using the smash version and throwing it too high.

Also, can you do down-b to AGT?

Also, I know they've said Diddy can pick up bananas using his dash attack, but what's the extra input for it?

Oh. Wow. I had no idea there were two inputs. This alone will help my game a ton, lol.

Toss a banana, and short hop Z catch it, or AGT to immediately throw it, or on a platform stage toss it on to the platform and waveland/AGT-waveland (got to be a better name for that...). Those would be the fastest options, but tossing it out > do other things > wavedash over it later is good too if you can't just get it right away. Leaving a banana out in the open for a second could be risky, but sometimes its right to throw it out even if you don't have time to pick it up. The banana's presence alone exerts a degree of stage control, and forcing a trip rather than an aerial banana tech by hitting them into a grounded banana is obviously good if you can set it up.

I guess I need to practice catching with Z. This whole time I've been flying up and air dodging down. I guess I should have just thought more.

And yeah, in the past throwing it on platforms and wavelanding off was my fastest method, but now that I know about the smash input that's not as needed as it used to be.

Thanks, y'all.

 

[`dazrin]

I like pressing down-b and immediately AGTing the tossed banana in the air.

 

[hamyojo]

I really enjoy comboin' weak knee into strong knee.

Also day 2 of release on cpu combo vid-'cause that's the kind of Smasher I am.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrTs2SR5lxc

Hopefully I'll make one on humans soon-ish.

 

[tripwire]

Some good ideas on there though.

 

[jalued]

UpB is such an incredibly good kill move... try dair to upB for an awesome and simple kill combo :D

 

[SpiderMad]

What's the general consensus on how "fun" it is to fight against Diddy? Also do people like the ditto? I love Falco and Ike dittos but Diddy dittos are weird, but probably not as much as Peach/Puff dittos lol.

How is his Peanut gun Waveland timing compared to Wolf's laser? "Diddy can air dodge out an aerial peanut shot 15 frames into the animation"

Peanut gun cancel (pressing Shield), leads to a small animation of putting the gun away instead of an instant cancel in Brawl: does jumping or anything cancel that animation quicker?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgJYEDVo9vk&list=PL8F2E08DC2D10BFA6&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331761
Canceling the peanut charge now gives a proper, 8-frame cancel animation (part of a universal change regarding special cancels). You can still use this cancel in conjunction with B-reversals and glide-tosses for momentum tricksies. And speaking of momentum, there is no longer a sudden halt of momentum upon firing the peanut (so you won't suddenly drop straight down); backward momentum from the shot's recoil does remain, however and is added to whatever momentum you have at the time of the shot.

Like right here he cancelled it straight into a grounded AGT of the banana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=387s
Also this is nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=406s

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

What's the general consensus on how "fun" it is to fight against Diddy? Also do people like the ditto? I love Falco and Ike dittos but Diddy dittos are weird, but probably not as much as Peach/Puff dittos lol.

How is his Peanut gun Waveland timing compared to Wolf's laser? "Diddy can air dodge out an aerial peanut shot 15 frames into the animation"

Peanut gun cancel (pressing Shield), leads to a small animation of putting the gun away instead of an instant cancel in Brawl: does jumping or anything cancel that animation quicker?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgJYEDVo9vk&list=PL8F2E08DC2D10BFA6&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331761
Canceling the peanut charge now gives a proper, 8-frame cancel animation (part of a universal change regarding special cancels). You can still use this cancel in conjunction with B-reversals and glide-tosses for momentum tricksies. And speaking of momentum, there is no longer a sudden halt of momentum upon firing the peanut (so you won't suddenly drop straight down); backward momentum from the shot's recoil does remain, however and is added to whatever momentum you have at the time of the shot.

Like right here he cancelled it straight into a grounded AGT of the banana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=387s
Also this is nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=406s

For one, it's not grounded AGT. It's just a glide toss. And two, that's brawl, not project M. In brawl, you could cancel the popgun and pick up a banana in the same animation. If you already had a banana, you could cancel the popgun into a glide toss or regular throw. In the air, you could do it at any time. On the ground, it was a specific window, but a pretty lenient one.

Diddy is fun. Really fun. He's going to get nerfed though, I feel he's too good. To highly rewarded for easy situations, much like capt. Falcon or 2.5 Pit. Just my personal opinion tho, who knows. Just speculation until I see what works and what doesn't in tournament play and with higher skilled players usage of him.

I personally enjoy the ditto. Barrel trading on the ledge is great.

 

[SinisterB]

Diddy dittos are so fun, oh my glob. Dazrin and myself did like a solid hour or two of them before I finally switched off to Wolf. Speaking of which, Diddy's peanuts are a little later on the waveland timing. That's how it feels, at least. It may just be that Wolf falls faster, but they're still super useful.

On the topic of banana set-ups though, I really like leaving one near the edge so I can grab it with DA and come back with an AGT or something. Pretty cool if they're offstage, or just to bait them. After getting a solid feel for Diddy last night, I think I might legitimately pick him up. I really like how he's still got his brawl traits so things come pretty natural, but with a little PM flavor. Too fun.

 

[`dazrin]

Yeah my diddy leveled up yo Diddy 2 goooood.

Tons of diddy in the most recent archives: http://twitch.tv/dazee_/videos

 

[Translucent]

Diddy can be annoying or really fun to play against. Playing with items is always fun, and squirtle wave dash picks up bananas nicely.

 

[Melomaniacal]

It is unreal how good Diddy flip is.

Also, I can never get anything good out of the dash attack. It always has too much end lag to follow up. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[ELI-mination]

It is unreal how good Diddy flip is.

Also, I can never get anything good out of the dash attack. It always has too much end lag to follow up. Am I doing something wrong?

If it's grounded, try to hit with it while the move is ending. Typically it's better to use dash attack off of ledges + platforms though because: 1) you can jump out of it, and 2) if you fast-fall his dash attack into the ground you will have literally NO lag whatsoever.

 

[Sweet™]

Reverse Peanut Gun Cancelling.

New meta.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Up B is a fantastic OoS and is pretty dang safe due to the relatively low landing lag. Not to mention that you can control at which angle you are launched, making it even safer on platform stages. Also, the KBG is ridiculous.

SPREAD THE WORD.

 

[SpiderMad]

Thanks to Mad =o

oh well thank you

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

oh well thank you

No problem man

 

[GuruKid]

What's the general consensus on how "fun" it is to fight against Diddy? Also do people like the ditto? I love Falco and Ike dittos but Diddy dittos are weird, but probably not as much as Peach/Puff dittos lol.

How is his Peanut gun Waveland timing compared to Wolf's laser? "Diddy can air dodge out an aerial peanut shot 15 frames into the animation"

Peanut gun cancel (pressing Shield), leads to a small animation of putting the gun away instead of an instant cancel in Brawl: does jumping or anything cancel that animation quicker?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgJYEDVo9vk&list=PL8F2E08DC2D10BFA6&feature=player_detailpage#t=92s

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=331761
Canceling the peanut charge now gives a proper, 8-frame cancel animation (part of a universal change regarding special cancels). You can still use this cancel in conjunction with B-reversals and glide-tosses for momentum tricksies. And speaking of momentum, there is no longer a sudden halt of momentum upon firing the peanut (so you won't suddenly drop straight down); backward momentum from the shot's recoil does remain, however and is added to whatever momentum you have at the time of the shot.

Like right here he cancelled it straight into a grounded AGT of the banana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=387s
Also this is nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8wwr693KDo&feature=player_detailpage&list=PL2F0E17EE25F83164#t=406s

The Peanut Cancel animation cannot be interrupted. 8 frames might seem a considerable amount on paper but from experience Peanut Cancel -> Glide Toss tricksies can still see significant use in this game, notably during the times when you're trying to force approaches from peanut shots with bananas nearby and/or in hand.

And yes, Diddy-O's are crazy fun. From personal experience against Eli's Diddy the winner is often determined by the player with better banana (your opponents' as well as your own) manipulation. Bananas errrrwhere!

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Dair becomes an incredibly helpful move the second it starts bouncing people onstage.

At very low percents it consitently combos into all of your smashes (Fast fallers mostly, although some with an average fall speed also get hit by this)

When your opponent is being bounced high enough so that Smashes won't hit, aerials are next, with Fair and Bair allowing you to send people offstage and/or even kill depending on the opponent.

Even higher than that, the only moves that hit are Uair or Up B. Both of them are decent kill choices, and the one that you'll use to kill or send offstage usually depends on your positioning

Finally, Up B hits when no other attack does, at ridiculously high %s (Around 180-200% for floaties and characters inbetween, and up to around 220% on fast fallers), practically ensuring the kill.

Note that most of these are taking into account that the opponent doesn't DI. Think of it as CF's Stomp into Knee followups.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Dair is fantastic. As soon as Diddys start to do the CF running SH Dairs consistently, there will be no safe haven for mutha ****as

 

[Yobolight]

I consider Diddy somewhat of a somewhat counter to Sheik due to Diddy's nanners complicating Sheik's otherwise phenomenal ground game, Diddy's fastfaller status preventing Sheik's chaingrab antics, Diddy's good recovery, and his jump grab.

What do yall think?

 

[Master WGS]

A quick double jump puts you at almost just the right height to perfect waveland on Battlefield's platforms.


Hilarious.

 

[jalued]

i'm so excited!!!

I just found out that diddy can catch his own penuts! :D

Just do a running jump, press B immediately and then airdodge forward to catch the nut :D

oh and you can edgeguard with diddy's upair ganon style :D

 

[tripwire]

i'm so excited!!!

I just found out that diddy can catch his own penuts! :D

Just do a running jump, press B immediately and then airdodge forward to catch the nut :D

oh and you can edgeguard with diddy's upair ganon style :D

Yeah I noticed that UpAir too. Diddy so good.

 

[jalued]

I've also noticed that his sideB attack can often lead into a jab reset, as it hits relatively weak

 

[KayB]

Bnb combos anyone?

 

[tripwire]

I love bananna and bread combos.