Kirby MetaGame discussion

[Katakiri]

I rarely use Up-tilt for anything other than adding extra damage to Chain Grabs. I space to much to make good use of it.

One thing I have been doing is Jungleciding. I was even able to get Clouderz with it. xP
So I'm really starting to wonder what's the better counter-pick? Jungle Japes or Rainbow Cruise? .-.

 

[DFat2]

I rarely use Up-tilt for anything other than adding extra damage to Chain Grabs. I space to much to make good use of it.

One thing I have been doing is Jungleciding. I was even able to get Clouderz with it. xP
So I'm really starting to wonder what's the better counter-pick? Jungle Japes or Rainbow Cruise? .-.

It really Depends. He does better against some characters in Jungle Japes due to his superior Cyding ability. But, generally, RC is better for him.

 

[Lord Viper]

I rarely use Up-tilt for anything other than adding extra damage to Chain Grabs. I space to much to make good use of it.

☆ Since it's best to use U-Tilt when someone's behind you, you mostly should try U-Tilt after you've done a move that has a blind/weak spot when attacking all around you. Also, you can follow U-Tilt>B-Air>short hop backwords>repeat and see how that works. ☆

So I'm really starting to wonder what's the better counter-pick? Jungle Japes or Rainbow Cruise? .-.

☆ I'll say Rainbow Cruise since Kirby does very well in the air, Jungle Japes is good since it's a large space and Kirby won't get KO'd fast at all. That and you can try to Swallowcide someone at the left side of the stage on Jungle Japes and see where that get's you. ☆

 

[momochuu]

Um...has anyone else started using utilt>utilt>bair>bair>fsmash a lot?

I've done this a number of times on the ladder, including once on ADHD (who's like, #3).

UpTilt to reverse chased grab is much sexier. It's like my signature move. =^_^=

 

[A1lion835]

So...you get a grab+7%, and maybe a follow-up aerial (/hammer, but that will almost never work), instead of 51-53%? Granted, "The Lion Combo", as I call it, doesn't always work, but it works a reasonable amount of the time.

Other Lion Combos:

ff'd Nair>utilt>bair>bair>fsmash

ff'd Nair>utilt>reverse fsmash

ff'd Nair>dtilt>fsmash

utilt (opponent in front)>ftilt>dtilt>fsmash

(mixup for previous) utilt>ftilt>fsmash

utilt>utilt>reverse fsmash (mixup for first Lion Combo mentioned)

fthrow>uair>reverse utilt>bair>bair

 

[momochuu]

No combos in Brawl. :3

naming moves after yourself is pretty weak. xD Look at my "Super-duper-kawaii bunny-spin grab trick" =^__^=

 

[Katakiri]

I can never seem to get any momentum going on RC. Is it my play style? I know I play a good air game, but RC just feels awkward for some reason.

Here's how I play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rMkI1zZkM4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHC0pgXTJMU

What about my play style might be tripping me up on stages like RC & Norfair? I'm kinda stumped at this point.
Halp? D:

 

[momochuu]

I'm not good on stages like that either, except for Norfair. When I CP I usually just go to a neutral-ish stage like PS1.

I'm not even sure what the general strategy on Rainbow Cruise is. I assume it's gimping, which really isn't how I play Kirby. It's all personal preference. If you don't feel comfortable playing on RC, go to a stage like Halberd or Delphino. Hope this helped. I tend to start talking about other stuff a lot. @_@

 

[A1lion835]

Bunny, the naming combos was a joke. Srsly, you think I have the nerve to name a combo after me? Who do you think I am? Asidoh Gonzo?

But lol at your trick name...

 

[Katakiri]

Yea I do better on stages with a single platform like Halberd. Not so much Delfino. That's one of the reasons I like Japes.
But idk, I've never tried CPing Delfino before. It makes sense. I'll give it a shot.
If all else fails, there's always Sonic & Meta Knight I guess.

 

[TheFast]

A mindgame that has worked on alot of Florida players (LOL) but really is to spam F-throw to rising fair to wear they see it comming than do a rising hammer towards them and DI away. On most characters if they Air dodge towards you the 2nd hammer almost always connects. Its getting them to airdodge towards you that is the hard part >_>. Very Rare but it happens at least once every time I play a new person.

 

[CaliburChamp]

People should stop being boring and limited and take some banned stage strategies into account along with more counterpicking strategies. I know that 75 m is a great Kirby stage, you can get many swallow cides on that stage, and many people don't know how to play that stage, it will usually be banned at tournaments, but most people are more strict about rules online than offline. True facts.

Neutrals are way too overplayed, too well known, and good counter stages for top tier characters. If you want to win, you can't go with the flow all the time, you gotta stand out, and you will be more well known as a player for that because your different. True facts.

 

[fromundaman]

People should stop being boring and limited and take some banned stage strategies into account along with more counterpicking strategies. I know that 75 m is a great Kirby stage, you can get many swallow cides on that stage, and many people don't know how to play that stage, it will usually be banned at tournaments, but most people are more strict about rules online than offline. True facts.

Neutrals are way too overplayed, too well known, and good counter stages for top tier characters. If you want to win, you can't go with the flow all the time, you gotta stand out, and you will be more well known as a player for that because your different. True facts.

Except that's not a CP stage. That's not a stage people know because it's one that will NEVER appear in tournaments (unless both players agree to it, which if someone doesn't know that stage, they aren't going to).

 

[t!MmY]

Neutrals (and perhaps Near-Neutrals) should be the only allowed tournament stages. Allowing random elements into the game detracts from skill.

However, I ran a tournament and told everyone that ALL stages were counterpicks. The majority of stages counterpicked were Neutrals. Not surprisingly the people who counterpicked stages like 75m and Mario Bros were also the people who did not make it far in the brackets. >_>

At any rate, 75m is not a very good Kirby stage since he doesn't have the mobility or projectiles to take advantage of the large areas. Faster characters will have the advantage on him, and if they have a projectile, they can camp all day long.

 

[fromundaman]

I kind of disagree. Knowing how to play CP stages can be VERY helpful. For example, PTAD is great for MK, and possibly Kirby, and knowing how to play it is a great boon.
Brinstar is great for a lot of characters as well, and can affect the outcome of a set.
I don't even need to explain RC or JJ.

You get my point.

 

[t!MmY]

I never said knowing how to play a stage isn't helpful... obviously it is.

I said:

Neutrals (and perhaps Near-Neutrals) should be the only allowed tournament stages. Allowing random elements into the game detracts from skill.

And what is PTAD? Pokemon Trainer's Almost-final Destination? Ha ha.

 

[A1lion835]

And what is PTAD? Pokemon Trainer's Almost-final Destination? Ha ha.

Port Town Aero Dive.

I disagree with the "only near neutrals should me counterpicks" theory. Hazards like the lava on brinstar change the game. It changes how people play, discourages extreme cheapness camping, sets up combos, etc.

Also, the neutrals all have about the same blastzones, so if everyone learns just those, it takes away part of the game. And last but not least, "3 stock! 8 minutes! Final Destination!" doesn't sound very fun. Lighten up man! B-)

 

[t!MmY]

I'm hardly a serious person. :-p

I just think that for high-level play, stages without excessive, game altering effects should be used. I really don't mind seeing stages like Brinstar, Frigate and Halberd, but I notice a large number of tournaments using Norfair, Green Greens, etc.

Usually it's the person CPing a bad stage that wants to camp you.

Spoiler

Just last week I was camped on Jungle Japes until the last 30 seconds of an 8 min game at which point I won with a 2-stock. I initially called JJ as my Stage Ban, but I agreed to play on it just to see how the match would go. >_>;

 

[A1lion835]

That's why you don't CP Japes vs Snake (that was who you played against, right?). CP RC (and if they ban it, punch them in the face and CP it anyway)!

 

[fromundaman]

That's why you don't CP Japes vs Snake (that was who you played against, right?). CP RC (and if they ban it, punch them in the face and CP it anyway)!

Ummm... are you high? JJ is one of, if not the worst Snake stage!
By campers he probably meant someone like ROB or Falco, who are a ***** on that stage.

 

[t!MmY]

I wasn't the one counter picking. I won the first round and banned Jungle Japes. My opponent was Pit, so they're obviously prone to spam-camp, but I agreed to go to Jungle Japes anyway. Guess what? Over 7 minutes of spam. And since I won with a 2-stock it doesn't prove the stage made it any better for Pit, just easier to camp which.

People don't seem to realize that bad stages don't make for good matches. If Brawl wants to move away from the "not fun to watch/play" stigma it has, then we Brawl players need to realize that bad stages should not be usd for tournaments.

(It's fine if you want to use bad stages for friendlies, I'm talking about mid to large scale events with people traveling from out of town to participate in).

 

[A1lion835]

Ummm... are you high? JJ is one of, if not the worst Snake stage!
By campers he probably meant someone like ROB or Falco, who are a ***** on that stage.

Last snake I cp'd Japes against hit me a few times, stopped me from getting near him, took off a stock, repeat (campcampcampcampcamp). And I couldn't even freaking see his C4...

 

[fromundaman]

Heh, C4 *might* be a problem on JJ depending on how the darkness on the TV is set up, but other than that, there's not much camping he can do. Last Snake I played (Nope) switched to DK when I CPed JJ since he said he is never playing a serious match with Snake on that stage (and for good reason!).
Snake dies so easily on that stage, especially vs Kirby.


Also T!mmy, I disagree. JJ is a bad/gay stage against certain matchups/types of players. It is not fun against campers/stallers, but otherwise the stage itself is fine, and fun as hell to play on (one of my favorite CPs by far.).

Tactically speaking, it's a good CP for Kiby as well.

 

[choknater]

omg? How do you do a rising hammer?

 

[Asdioh]

The problem with neutrals is that for some characters, they're not neutral at all: they give a distinct advantage. Say, Snake on Battlefield. lolz.

Some stages with nonrandom or semi-random (easily predictable) hazards are fine. Halberd has hazards, are they the reason anybody chooses that stage? No, they usually choose it because of the low ceiling or "sharking" or something like that.

I choose Brinstar not because I hope that the acid will catch them off guard (it won't if they're paying attention) but because 1. close sides and 2. when it rises, they have nowhere to go but to me.

Brinstar is one of THE BEST stages to discourage camping, and long games.

 

[t!MmY]

JJ is a bad/gay stage against certain matchups/types of players. It is not fun against campers/stallers, but otherwise the stage itself is fine, and fun as hell to play on...

You can't go to a tournament and say "Well the stage itself is fine as long as players don't abuse it". That is a casual player's point of view. In tournaments players can - and should - abuse stages in order to win. Does this make for a more interesting interaction between competitors and a more exciting match for spectators? No. Thus Jungle Japes should not be in a tournament.

The problem with neutrals is that for some characters, they're not neutral at all: they give a distinct advantage. Say, Snake on Battlefield. lolz.

There is no 'problem' with Neutrals; they're considered "neutral" for a reason. If a character has an advantage on a stage, it's because of the imbalance in the character match-ups themselves. If your main concern is character advantage, you should be supporting Neutral Stages for high-level, competitive play and instead look at the flaws in character balance.

And Neutrals are not all the same. BF, FD, SV (as well as YI and LC) have distinct qualities that can be used as far as counterpicking based on character choice. Many tournaments will also include additional stages that, while not neutral, can still afford a fair match without disrupting tournament gameplay to a great degree (Delfino, Halberd, Castle Siege, Stadium 1, Frigate, Brinstar).

 

[fromundaman]

You can't go to a tournament and say "Well the stage itself is fine as long as players don't abuse it". That is a casual player's point of view. In tournaments players can - and should - abuse stages in order to win. Does this make for a more interesting interaction between competitors and a more exciting match for spectators? No. Thus Jungle Japes should not be in a tournament.


There is no 'problem' with Neutrals; they're considered "neutral" for a reason. If a character has an advantage on a stage, it's because of the imbalance in the character match-ups themselves. If your main concern is character advantage, you should be supporting Neutral Stages for high-level, competitive play and instead look at the flaws in character balance.

And Neutrals are not all the same. BF, FD, SV (as well as YI and LC) have distinct qualities that can be used as far as counterpicking based on character choice. Many tournaments will also include additional stages that, while not neutral, can still afford a fair match without disrupting tournament gameplay to a great degree (Delfino, Halberd, Castle Siege, Stadium 1, Frigate, Brinstar).

T!mmy... what the **** are you talking about?

It has very little to do with the player. If you play Falco on JJ, you SHOULD spam. What I was saying was that as long as you aren't picking it against certain characters, you won't have any trouble with it. Certain characters make that stage gay. Yeah, it sucks, but I'm not saying they can't do it (unless I ban it of course), as that is the smart way for that character to play that stage.


Also, no. Neutrals are NOT neutral for everyone. You want an example? Take Diddy on FD. It is arguably his best stage (I personally think LM is worst, but that's just my opnion.). It has nothing to do with the general matchup, it has to do with the fact that Diddy is just all around better there. Same with Snake on BF.
Likewise, ROB is considerably worse on BF than certain other stages.
Lots of characters can abuse the transformations of PS1 (which, remember, is listedas a neutral), like MK, Kirby and D3, who all have infinites there until the stage changes, and Pikachu which is very effective at spamming on that stage.
Samus and Mario are also both considerably worse on YI(Brawl), since the stage messes with their tactics.
Lylat is also bad for a lot of spammers and Ganon, as well as characters with bad recoveries.

Basically, no, neutrals are NOT completely neutral.

 

[Asdioh]

I guess stage-strike system eliminates much of the "neutral imbalance"

But I don't really care, I was just trying to make a point.

I don't even know where this discussion is going XD

Let's talk about the list of moves that can hit Kirby after he uses Copy that I made some more.

 

[fromundaman]

Way to kill the conversation Asdioh!

Seriously though... we should probably put that list somewhere more accessible. You should put it in the Kirby research thread kawaii made. That seems like a good place to put all that sort of knowledge.

 

[T-nuts]

I was wondering how you kirbies punish grounded opponents. like, say you blocked or spotdodged an attack or something from a grounded opponent and you have a split second to reach them with your attack and punish their lag...what do you do?

Mainly, i want to talk about the relationship between the positions of your lag stunned opponent compared to you, and the move you punish with.

There are 7 positions i want to discuss, relative to kirby:

------|----------- | ------------ | ----------- <(^.^)> ------------ | ------------ | ------------ |-------
[far behind] [behind] [close behind] [side uncertain] [close in front] [in front] [far in front]
-------------------------------------------[kirby's position]----------------------------------------------

Here are the moves that I use to punish, currently, from each position.

far behind or far in front: far is relative...we'll say far enough that the only move kirby can reach them with without moving is Fsmash. seems like the quickest way to punish is with dash grab...fsmash being a potential much higher risk, higher reward option.

behind: bair immediately out of jump toward the opponent seems best...you can full hop or short hop here, but full hop probably keeps you safer. reverse ftilt is also an option but it is the lowest reward move to connect with.

close behind: utilt or bair seem best. utilt is quicker but bair is still fast...it depends on what i want to hit them with, and whether or not i think bair has time to connect. also, full hop rising bair is safer on a perfect shield.

unsure: this is when you arent sure whether your opponent is going to be in front of you or behind you, and you only have a split second to punish, so you cant figure out where they will be before you attack, but it will be either very close in front of you or very close behind you. this could be after an opponent falls on you with an aerial, or you block snakes dash attack, or something else. Anyway, I always use utilt in this situation since its quick and hits both sides.

close front: i use grab or jab here. grab is higher reward, but also higher risk (barely).

front: if they are in front of you and out of grab or jab range, ftilt seems like the quickest punishment, and still pretty safe on block. if i block MK's downsmash, this seems like a reliable punishment, since it pushes too far away for a grab.

anyone have any moves they prefer to punish with over these options? I would like to be able to punish as well as I possibly can. also, im not looking for how you punish other things, like roll dodges or spot dodges: thats best saved for another conversation.

finally, sorry for such a long post.

 

[Asdioh]

woo, discussion. Good post.

I usually punish far-away opponents with a Dash attack

Anywhere behind me is usually a shorthopped Bair directly after the shield/powershield

In front is jabs, grab, ftilt, dtilt, dash attack..possibly Fair...

I almost never use Fsmash to punish...occasionally the other smashes..


It all depends on what move I block >_<

What's best to punish a Snake Ftilt/Utilt that you shield/perfect shield? ... seems like NOTHING to me, since he can just ****ing do it again because it's broken...unless you perfect shield both hits I guess.


Speaking of dash attack, I saw recent videos of Chudat, and I don't think I saw him use it even once. o_O

I also saw a TON of opportunities he could have gotten kills with a Stone edgeguard, but he didn't....

 

[A1lion835]

The dash attack thing I can sort of understand, but not the stone...

who were his opponents? What chars? If it's mk, then yea, no stone, but if it's snake...yea. He's gonna get 20% on him no matter what, more if he's not careful.

 

[Bellioes]

I just picked up kirby like a month ago so Im not really up to date on his metagame. I just know the basics. So what is this stone edgeguard everyone is talking about. If its just jump offstage to stone, isnt that a little predictable. And it seems like a high risk, high reward sortve tactic cause what are the chances that your opponent will DI into the path of the stone when theyre recovering offstage. Could someone explain whats so good about this or if I have the wrong idea. Thanks.

 

[A1lion835]

I just picked up kirby like a month ago so Im not really up to date on his metagame. I just know the basics. So what is this stone edgeguard everyone is talking about. If its just jump offstage to stone, isnt that a little predictable. And it seems like a high risk, high reward sortve tactic cause what are the chances that your opponent will DI into the path of the stone when theyre recovering offstage. Could someone explain whats so good about this or if I have the wrong idea. Thanks.

It's basically just that. However, no matter how predictable, it has one advantage.

If they avoid it, they die.

Think of it vs say, Mario.

He's at a high %. A stone could kill him. You've knocked him offstage. You float above and a bit in front of him, then use stone. He has a few options:

1. Airdodge the stone. The problem? He falls to his death.

2. Wait for the stone to get past, try to recover. He still falls to his death.

3. Up-b/jump into stone and die.

So stone edguarding is pretty good.

Anyway, welcome to kirbeh! Welcome!

 

[Bellioes]

Hehe thanks ^_^
I main Diddy and Olimar gives me a lot of trouble so I use kirby in that match-up.
So stone edgeguarding is sortve just to limit their options offstage (I find kirby to be very good at this )
And I was reading the previous pages and I like the idea of using it on characters that recover from below the stage.

 

[Asdioh]

The dash attack thing I can sort of understand, but not the stone...

who were his opponents? What chars? If it's mk, then yea, no stone, but if it's snake...yea. He's gonna get 20% on him no matter what, more if he's not careful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWKknyvf-x4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND3r5stxcG0

I see places where dash attack would have helped, and even Stone above stage would have helped, since Azen obviously didn't expect it (he chased with aerials/used upsmash or uptilt all the time)
I don't see as many Stone opportunities offstage as I remember >_>

Apparently Chu beat Azen 3-2 in winner's finals, and then Azen beat him (??-??) in Grand Finals round 1, and then beat him 3-2 in Grand Finals round 2 X_X
Considering that this is supposedly game 10 of GF

Here's the only match from GF that I know of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K30UKFMZukw

lolbrinstar

lol@ the ending


Bellioes, trust me, some characters have so much trouble against Stone edgeguarding, if you time it right.

 

[A1lion835]

Huh...I didn't see an opportunity in match 1, but I did see him have a way to win towards the end of match 1...

Basically, when snake was in a bubble in the upper blastzone and chu was right under it, he should've used rock. The startup is long enough that, if timed right, he'll fall right into a stone, WHEN HE'S AT THE TOP OF THE SCREEN.

On another note, Azen's snake really sucks, but maybe that's just because he's playing Chu. Does he even use snake? I know he uses lucario...

Edit: And Azen doesn't seem very afraid of approaching kirby from under him, chu should punish that...hell, even I could predict he was gonna do that...

 

[T-nuts]

So stone edgeguarding is sortve just to limit their options offstage (I find kirby to be very good at this )
And I was reading the previous pages and I like the idea of using it on characters that recover from below the stage.

exactly. use stone at a time when a recovering opponent is already using their up b or when dodging would be very costly. be careful against tether recovery characters though because they can quickly grab the ledge and get invincibility. honestly i wouldnt use it much against olimar if that is who you will be using kirby on.

i mean, you can use it on olimar, but at low percents a dair or bair that hits him away from the level seems better so you can get a low percent gimp. stone will send them high and back on the stage. at higher percents though stones still gonna kill him, obviously.

anyway, i only watched chu's first match from the first video. i dunno about using stone or dash attack in that one, i thought chu did fine. again though, i only watched the first match.

what i did notice was:

1) one time chu grabbed snake, and he didnt even jab or anything from the platform on smashville. did he just mess up or can someone explain this?

2)chu blocked an utilt and punished with kirby's ftilt. looked to be out of jab or grab range. this is exactly the discussion i was aiming for

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If I'm playing someone and I hit them offstage, and they have like 75% or something, would it be better for me to attempt an aerial Hammer to kill them, or to try to chain some aerials if my Bair is stale? I know this seems kind of specific, but I find myself in this situation a lot. Thanks.


And I'll let this be my introduction post here on the Kirby Boards. I'm S.O.L.I.D. or SOLID, some of you may have seen me around SWF, I'm from Chicago, and I use Kirby and Marth. Hopefully I'll be around here often, hope to get to know some of you guys.

 

[T-nuts]

If I'm playing someone and I hit them offstage, and they have like 75% or something, would it be better for me to attempt an aerial Hammer to kill them, or to try to chain some aerials if my Bair is stale? I know this seems kind of specific, but I find myself in this situation a lot. Thanks.


And I'll let this be my introduction post here on the Kirby Boards. I'm S.O.L.I.D. or SOLID, some of you may have seen me around SWF, I'm from Chicago, and I use Kirby and Marth. Hopefully I'll be around here often, hope to get to know some of you guys.

heh, i use kirby and marth too. welcome.

yeah, i think its just a matter of preference, and a matter of what you think your opponent will do. hammer is the better move to connect with obviously, but it is harder to hit with. BUT, if youve been coming at your opponent with quick aerials all game, and you know theyre gonna try to airdodge you...start your hammer as soon as their airdodge ends. watch those videos asdioh posted of chudat vs azen, and watch how chu tries to predict the airdodges.

if you dont think theyre gonna airdodge, or you think theres a chance but youre really not sure at all, you might wanna stick with the bairs etc.