Kirby MetaGame discussion

[Bellioes]

Yeah In the match on Delfino Plaza, Chu used the aerial hammer while falling and Azen ADed the first hit but the second hit came out just as the invincibility frames ran out. Seems like its very difficult to pull this of though

 

[fromundaman]

T-nuts, the problem is that the punishment depends entirely on what move is being used. For example, a whiffed Snake Fsmash is best punished with a grounded hammer, while a thunder is best punished with inhale.

It really depends on the lag of the move in question. However, I say when in doubt, Ftilt, Utilt, or dashgrab.

 

[T-nuts]

T-nuts, the problem is that the punishment depends entirely on what move is being used. For example, a whiffed Snake Fsmash is best punished with a grounded hammer, while a thunder is best punished with inhale.

It really depends on the lag of the move in question. However, I say when in doubt, Ftilt, Utilt, or dashgrab.

yeah, i know what you mean. i guess what im mostly looking for is the quickest/safest option to punish with from each location i mentioned, so i can play as defensively as possible. i feel like the choices i mentioned are already the quickest ones, but im not sure so i wanted to know what others think.

still, im sure jab is the quicker punisher than grab, but its so close that I prefer grab usually.

 

[fromundaman]

Hmmm... While this doesn't really address your question, I find the best way to play defensively is to adopt a 'bait and punish' playstyle for Kirby.

For example, you see a lot of Kirby players complain about Snake's Ftilt, and how if you run in and shield it, you're still pretty much ****ed. Well, while that's kind of true, if you bait a Ftilt, you can land an attack (Ftilt, Bair, etc.) in between the tilts or after the second hit. Same with his other tilts.

Jumping above MK is an effective way to bait a SL, and if you know it's coming and know it's trajectory well, you can easily punish it (you can also punish a shielded SL, but that's much more complicated).

Against Marth, I try to shield a lot to bait shieldbreaker, and while I did get my shield broken by shieldbreaker on one occasion on Sat, this strategy also allowed me to win almost every set I played against Marth players, as I could predict the Shieldbreaker, spot dodge, then punish.



More on topic, in medium range, I'd try for Ftilt or Dtilt, though I personally prefer Ftilt. Short range, I'd either grab or Utilt, depending on where they are, though I should practice getting more jabs and Bairs in there.
If you're uncertain where they'll land, and aerial OoS or a utilt works. Sliding pivot grabs as well.

At far range though, it really depends on the lag of the move. While it is sort of a reflex to punish every whiffed attack, sometimes it's better to leave the opponent alone. If you can punish though, DA, Dash grab, and Bair/fair seem to be the best options. I'll occasionally throw in an aerial hammer/inhale too, depending on the move, just to keep them on their toes.

 

[T-nuts]

Hmmm... While this doesn't really address your question, I find the best way to play defensively is to adopt a 'bait and punish' playstyle for Kirby.

For example, you see a lot of Kirby players complain about Snake's Ftilt, and how if you run in and shield it, you're still pretty much ****ed. Well, while that's kind of true, if you bait a Ftilt, you can land an attack (Ftilt, Bair, etc.) in between the tilts or after the second hit. Same with his other tilts.

Jumping above MK is an effective way to bait a SL, and if you know it's coming and know it's trajectory well, you can easily punish it (you can also punish a shielded SL, but that's much more complicated).

Against Marth, I try to shield a lot to bait shieldbreaker, and while I did get my shield broken by shieldbreaker on one occasion on Sat, this strategy also allowed me to win almost every set I played against Marth players, as I could predict the Shieldbreaker, spot dodge, then punish.



More on topic, in medium range, I'd try for Ftilt or Dtilt, though I personally prefer Ftilt. Short range, I'd either grab or Utilt, depending on where they are, though I should practice getting more jabs and Bairs in there.
If you're uncertain where they'll land, and aerial OoS or a utilt works. Sliding pivot grabs as well.

At far range though, it really depends on the lag of the move. While it is sort of a reflex to punish every whiffed attack, sometimes it's better to leave the opponent alone. If you can punish though, DA, Dash grab, and Bair/fair seem to be the best options. I'll occasionally throw in an aerial hammer/inhale too, depending on the move, just to keep them on their toes.

haha, oh yeah. kirby seems good at baiting and punishing. I love it when people try to fall on me with an aerial immediately after a dthrow, and then get dthrown again. youd be surprised at how many times in a row ive done this to an actual human opponent. If I had to guess id say around 5-6 XD

Also, chasing after an opponent as they hit the ground is a great way to bait and punish, because theyll try to use an aerial to get you off of them and you can just shield grab the **** outta them.

also thanks for your opinion on my question =)

 

[fromundaman]

Oh yeah, I absolutely love Dthrow>shieldgrabbed Dthrow. It's just too good!

 

[Asdioh]

I use Kirby and Marth.

heh, i use kirby and marth too.

Ike does not approve.

Anyway yeah, while we're on the subject of Snake.

OBSERVE TEH GRENADES AND TEH FTILTS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r1B3mzzo3w

I was doing pretty bad in this set, especially in match 3, it's one big joke XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdeEudGEmbE

An earlier set I actually won.

My record against him on:
FD: 0-2
Jungle Japes: 2-0
BF: 1-0
Halberd: 0-1

I don't think I'll take him to Japes if I lose next time I play him; my Klaptrap luck is bound to turn on me eventually.


Let's discuss: ways to totally obliterate Snake!

My biggest problem in these videos: getting Ftilted a lot, blowing up a lot.

How Kirby should beat this: Bair doesn't usually blow up grenades, does it? It also is hard to punish if spaced properly. So therefore, my Kirby needs to spam more Bair. -_-

Sometimes my habit of pummeling hurts me in this matchup: if Snake's holding a grenade, pummel blows it up. If Snake just used upsmash before I grab him, the mortar falls down and hits me before I can use Upthrow in time.

Jungle Japes is good against Snake, but it's ridiculously hard to see him or his explosives, and he can camp pretty effectively.

Forward air punishes spotdodges pretty well. Hammer is pretty good in the air. SDI his Nair.

Is it possible to SDI the first hit of Ftilt so that you're behind him, and the second hit misses you? You'd have to be really close to Snake, but I wonder if it's possible...

Anyway, why am I talking about Snake in the Meatgame thread XD I guess it's because Kirby needs reliable ways to beat Snake to advance his Meatgame ._.

 

[T-nuts]

Ike does not approve.

Anyway, why am I talking about Snake in the Meatgame thread XD I guess it's because Kirby needs reliable ways to beat Snake to advance his Meatgame ._.

lol, i love playing as ike (and link too lol) im just much better with marth than i am with ike. im not bad with ike though :O

and please, tell me more about kirby's meatgame XD

and, ill watch those vids in a sec.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I just picked up kirby like a month ago so Im not really up to date on his metagame. I just know the basics. So what is this stone edgeguard everyone is talking about. If its just jump offstage to stone, isnt that a little predictable. And it seems like a high risk, high reward sortve tactic cause what are the chances that your opponent will DI into the path of the stone when theyre recovering offstage. Could someone explain whats so good about this or if I have the wrong idea. Thanks.

Really the one matchup where this is especially useful in is G&W. Your stone gets him through his up-b, which can catch G&W's off-guard for a stage spike or something. Its honestly a lot better than trying to edgeguard a G&W any other way.

 

[A1lion835]

Really the one matchup where this is especially useful in is G&W. Your stone gets him through his up-b, which can catch G&W's off-guard for a stage spike or something. Its honestly a lot better than trying to edgeguard a G&W any other way.

I thought this was really hard to hit with...whatever.

Oh yeah, I absolutely love Dthrow>shieldgrabbed Dthrow. It's just too good!

The best part is when you're facing a marth or someone like him. He dairs after your first dthrow, maybe falls for it again, jumps straight up, and realizes he can't go anywhere to avoid a 3rd.

 

[fromundaman]

Asdioh, you have to play bait and punish against Snake. I can't watch the videos atm since I'm typing from a PDA, but most, if not all of Snake's moves can be punished if whiffed. Basically, play less aggressive, and don't try to punish after a shielded tilt, as it will not work.

As for a CP against Snake, ehhh... I personally like Japes, PTAD, PS1, and YI myself. Then again, I tend to be pretty good on those stages. (Also, the Klaptrap has nothing to do with luck: it's on a timer.)

Personally, I don't see Snake vs Kirby as a horrible matchup. Marth and Lucario both seem worse...

 

[Falconv1.0]

I get in Snake's face so that he cant make use of his camping. I either get to deal with his f tilts right there on the spot or I can wait for forever first. I'll take the former, lol.

He gets a nice chunk of damage from grab combos, his aerial game is destroyed by Kirby, so, get in that grab, and now he's in the air so now you can molest him some more. I really dont mind playing Snake at all.

 

[Asdioh]

Really the one matchup where this is especially useful in is G&W. Your stone gets him through his up-b, which can catch G&W's off-guard for a stage spike or something. Its honestly a lot better than trying to edgeguard a G&W any other way.

It's pretty hard to do against G&W, considering that he's invincible for so many frames during his Up B. Similar with Marth: I don't think Marth has many invincibility frames on his Dolphin Slash, but I once landed a Stone directly on a Marth, but he used Up B at the right time and went right through it without taking any damage or knockback :\

(Also, the Klaptrap has nothing to do with luck: it's on a timer.)

Personally, I don't see Snake vs Kirby as a horrible matchup. Marth and Lucario both seem worse...

I lost to Lucario, and then Snake last tourney @_@ luckily I didn't play any Marths XD

And I know the Klaptrap's on a timer, but I'm too busy to pay attention to the time in the corner of the screen during a match...I know I'll accidentally run into it eventually.

I get in Snake's face so that he cant make use of his camping. I either get to deal with his f tilts right there on the spot or I can wait for forever first. I'll take the former, lol.

He gets a nice chunk of damage from grab combos, his aerial game is destroyed by Kirby, so, get in that grab, and now he's in the air so now you can molest him some more. I really dont mind playing Snake at all.

The thing about grab combos is that he can easily pull a grenade at any time, and I think it's more harmful for Kirby to take a little damage in this matchup than it is for Snake to take a good chunk more :\

For example, Fthrow->uair->grenade explodes will do I think 30% to him, and 12% to you...Not terrible, but I'd prefer Fthrow->predict the grenade and regrab->upthrow, which deals 18% to him and 0% to you. Or Fthrow twice and upthrow, which will do like 25%.

It's all about predicting right though :\ my very first MM against Ally, he pulled grenades the first couple times, allowing me to get extra throws on him. After that though, I couldn't know for sure whether he'd pull a grenade or not, just like he couldn't know for sure if I'd uair or not.

And Snake's air game is nothing to discount, especially if you're going up against Ally (about half the moves he uses are aerials) and I think Ally's Snake is the farthest along in terms of "metagame" personally. If more people played smart like him, Snake would be stupidly hard to beat for any character. The reason he wins so much is because he controls YOUR character just as much as he controls his own, his stage control is that good. If you have the option of getting blown up by a grenade, or rolling towards Snake to avoid the explosion, it's usually a better idea to take the explosion, otherwise you'll get hit by some 25%+ combo.

But yeah, Snake's aerials are laggy, but if they hit, they have really good priority, damage, and knockback :[



Snake can't use his Up B if you Inhale him out of it, even if you're on the ground, right? So maybe I should try this more: you know how Snakes love to recover ridiculously high? I'll try predicting their descent, Inhaling them, and then walking off the stage. They'll break out, and they won't have anymore jumps. It should work if their damage is somewhat high :/

Too bad I have no way to practice this crap except for wifi, and when I go to tournaments -_-

 

[SheerMadness]

Blank Mauser is right, use stone a lot against g&w's recovery. He some invincibility at the start of his up b buts its really not hard to hit, I do it all the time.

As for Snake if you watch Chu's vids one of ur greatest advantages against Snake is sucking him up and walking off the side. If you do that then spam jump on ur way down you'll often times footstool him when he gets out. Even if you dont footstool him its very easy to gimp him after he gets out.

 

[A1lion835]

As for Snake if you watch Chu's vids one of ur greatest advantages against Snake is sucking him up and walking off the side. If you do that then spam jump on ur way down you'll often times footstool him when he gets out. Even if you dont footstool him its very easy to gimp him after he gets out.

Yes, one of kirby's greatest advantages on snake is that he can walk offstage and snake won't be able to recover. Genius!

 

[SheerMadness]

lol Alison is such a *****.

Why do some brawl noobs have such attitudes?

 

[Lord Viper]

As for Snake if you watch Chu's vids one of ur greatest advantages against Snake is sucking him up and walking off the side. If you do that then spam jump on ur way down you'll often times footstool him when he gets out. Even if you dont footstool him its very easy to gimp him after he gets out.

☆ The only problem with you inhaling Snake is that it's not easy task to get into that position. Plus there's chances that Snake will break free before you can even get Snake very low to the point that a Footstool would kill him. I'll say the better way is when Snake uses his Up-B, then try to Inhale him, if you do then he won't have no jumps when he breaks free since Inhale is grab move. But don't leave him alone, unlike Sonic, Snake can use his B moves like his Down-B on himself and he'll have his second jump back. Unless you walk off the stage and if he's low enough to the point that he can't use his Down-B ☆

 

[A1lion835]

lol Alison is such a *****.

Why do some brawl noobs have such attitudes?

You said that we could jump offstage and then footstool snake so he dies. Well guess what. We can do that on most of the cast >.>

And maybe if you weren't so trollish, as we've established, I'd respond more nicely to you.

 

[Asdioh]

I was talking to TwilightKirby on AIM, and he was saying that if you Inhale someone as you are falling offstage (either in a Kirbycide attempt, or as an edgeguard) that they CAN'T break out easily.

I...didn't believe him. >_>

Maybe it's true? I dunno...I thought you could break out of Inhale regardless of whether it's on the ground, initiated on the ground, or if it's in the air, initiated in the air, or if it's on the ground, initiated in the air.

 

[Mike G]

Dunno if this is the right place for this but I decided to pick up brawl again and go back to Kirby.

has anyone found a use for the ledge cancel FowardB(where he just pulls out his hammer then it disappears as he's falling from the ledge) and has anyone found out what other attacks his nair can nullify like peach's turnips lol?

 

[Asdioh]

omg, a red name with a 2002 join date and a Kirby main icon in the Kirby boards. O_O

*everyone stops posting for fear of infractions*

Wait, what's this?! A Rena signature? I love Higurashi, I can get on his good side!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToStd94UsRk !


ANYWAY!

The "hammer cancel" or whatever you want to call it can be done while running or walking...I know that I like to do it in the wifi waiting room a lot, but I never remember to do it in an actual match. If I DID do it in an actual match, and I used it wisely, I'm sure it could be useful. Nobody likes to be hammered when they're offstage, so it could easily be used to psyche people out, and punish their airdodge or whatever they do to react.

I've never really seen any Kirbys use it in a match. I'll try to do it next time I play people offline :/ I'm sure it will take people by surprise, since most people probably don't know about it. It's like, one of the only "ATs" Kirby has XD

As for Nair nullifying attacks, I dunno. I think it can cancel most projectiles, except for energy ones or explosions. :/

 

[Mike G]

hmmmm, ok thanks for the info. I'll need to mess around with the hammer cancel some more. Maybe I can develop some sick mind games with it lol.

 

[Asdioh]

Well, you CAN perform pretty much any action after doing this technique, so in theory, it should be useful.

It's just...I always forget to use it in matches, you know?

 

[A1lion835]

I'm pretty sure you can grab the ledge a few frames faster from a hammer cancel, but maybe it's just it gives you a pretty large hint as to when you should press back.

 

[Dexlysic]

Has anyone looked into a Kirby variation of Pika's new chaingrab?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Myoltijo
Or does Pika's Dthrow have some weird property that ours doesn't?

 

[IC3R]

I think Kirby's D-Throw sends folks too high to ChainGrab them...

On heavies and fastfallers, maybe...

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah, after seeing that video, my first thought was "why hasn't this been discovered before?"

and then I thought about it with Kirby...no chance.

Fthrow? Won't work past the uair if they Smash DI. You can't simply Fthrow->Fthrow either, because they can...jump out.

Backthrow? You can chaingrab in Heavy Brawl with Backthrow kinda, but otherwise, nope.

Downthrow? Dthrow->uptilt->dthrow->uptilt kinda works on certain characters, but past that, won't work.

Upthrow? Nope.

Grab release? Only thing you can do out of grab release is predict their action and punish appropriately...other than that, they recover from grab release faster than Kirby. So no.



Inhale? MAYBEH! O___________O

I can infinite level 9 Fox in Melee with Kirby's backthrow at 0%. It's pretty great.

 

[Bellioes]

It wasnt discovered before because everyone thought to start chaingrabs at 0%. Whenever they tried, Falco would break out after like 3 or 4 grabs. Now that some Japenese guy figured out that some CGs only work at certain percents, Pikachus grab game is gonna grow like crazy with all the peolple testing different possiblities.
Anyways, did you guys check the General Match-Up chart on the tactical Discussions board. Im not really a Kirby expert so I cant really say if some of the rations are wrong or not. But for sure there are ratios that arent correct so you never know if he messed up on kirby.

 

[fromundaman]

Heh, this thread is suddenly getting a lot of attention...


Guys, don't disregard what Sheer is saying just because it's him. What he is saying is actually correct, and no A1, we do NOT have that on a majority of the cast. In fact, I've found that EVERYONE can escape it if they DI it right, and half the cast can footstool us unless they DI away.
Snake is one of the ones I haven't had time to test yet, but it seems like if he doesn't DI, you get a footstool (though the window is small, and if you miss he footstools you), and if he DIs towards you (usually that involves DIing towards the stage, which most people will do), then he can be footstooled. However, if he DIs away then you cannot footstool him.



Asdioh, he was kind of right and kind of not. I think what he meant is that, on the ground, if they struggle out of inhale enough, it can activate that weird animation where Kirby kind of bounces in place and can't really do anything, which gives the opponent more time to break out, whereas you cannot do that in the air. other than that though, it seems to be the same.


Mike, while I haven't played around with the hammer ledge-cancel at all, I've found it fairly useless onstage, as you still get the hammer landing lag without the hitbox. The only use I've found for it is that if you do it at a certain height, he will do only a little more than half of the first swing before canceling it, but the hitbox extends all the way, essentially giving it an 'invisible' hitbox (which also helps you recover from the landing lag safely). It's nothing revolutionary, but it can be a kind of neat srprise to pull out. Doesn't work quite as much as I'd like it to though...

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Can Snake be inhaled during his cypher?

 

[A1lion835]

Can Snake be inhaled during his cypher?

Yes. Yes he can (that sounded ********, but I'd probably get an infraction for dodging the 10char limit if I hadn't said it).

 

[fromundaman]

Yes, he can! Also, if he breaks out of inhale, it's the same as a grab release, and he can't cypher again.

 

[Asdioh]

This is why I suggested Inhaling a Snake that recovers from the top of the screen...if you predict his trajectory and Inhale him before he touches the ground, and then you make it offstage before he breaks out, I'm pretty sure he doesn't get his jump back once he does break out.

It's just kinda hard to pull off on Snake, since he can do an aerial, or airdodge...Inhale's hard to do on a target that can go left, right, or nowhere from way up in the air.

If you DO pull it off, though, it's an automatic KO, or at least, automatic damage when he tries to C4 recover, and you get another opportunity to gimp.

Depending on how far you Inhale him from the ledge, he might need to be at high percentages so he doesn't break out too soon.

 

[fromundaman]

Actually, if he tries anything BUT DIing away after breaking free, you get an automatic footstool, meaning he can't bombjump either. If he does try to DI away (which, if you just hopped offstage, should only be the case if he knows about this, for otherwise DIing away from Kirby means DIing away from the stage.), he will probably have too much horizontal momentum to bomb jump properly.

 

[Asdioh]

So basically, Inhaling a Snake that recovers up high with Cypher before he touches the ground, and then going offstage before he breaks out, screws Snake over pretty badly no matter what?

*posting because the Kirby boards have been DEAD for like 5 hours*

 

[T-nuts]

haha look at the right half of asdiohs sig...i dont even know what thats from but its hilarious anyway

 

[fromundaman]

Asdioh: Pretty much.
Funny thing is, that same strategy wrecks the SF characters, ZSS, and Boozer even worse, since even if they avoid the FS, they can't recover (due to the way they have to DI/move they have to buffer to avoid the FS.).

 

[Sino]

I saw the match between Roy R and Dojo and I saw Dojo did a airdodge+SideB at the end preventing him from being Ko'd. Can kirby do this too, with a airdodge and then Stone. I don;t know how much it's stops the momentum and even maby with hammer. But i don't know about that.
I know it's not exactly the right place too ask it, but if it's works it nice for his metagame XD

 

[Gnes]

I saw the match between Roy R and Dojo and I saw Dojo did a airdodge+SideB at the end preventing him from being Ko'd. Can kirby do this too, with a airdodge and then Stone. I don;t know how much it's stops the momentum and even maby with hammer. But i don't know about that.
I know it's not exactly the right place too ask it, but if it's works it nice for his metagame XD

No he cant...the thing is what Dojo did sort works out like a rip-off of bucket cancelling...The thing with kirby is all of his special moves come out to slow for this to be really effective...Not to mention his airdodge animation is slow as well...well basically kirby is slow

The snake cypher trick seems pretty useless considering smart snakes will recover extremely high and can utilize momentum canceling to change directions instantly...

 

[Asdioh]

I dunno, you simply have to predict the Snake. If you expect him to airdodge, predict it and Inhale where he will be. If he does an aerial, maybe you'll get hit but the superarmor will kick in and you'll Inhale him anyway.


edit: nevermind if you read what I wrote here before editing this. Apparently, overswarm thinks it's funny to tell me that Lucario can infinite Kirby with grab release on slants, when it's actually not true >_>