Kirby MetaGame discussion

[Lovely]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPbR90m8Ldg

Tee-hee.

I wish more people would counter pick this stage so I can use this. It's not easy finding people that like's Pictochat. ._.

 

[fromundaman]

You can do that on other stages too.

Like PS1, and Pirate Ship, for example.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Wait... which part on Pirate Ship you can perform that trick? I know Pokemon Stadium but not Pirate Ship. )= ☆

 

[Pink murder]

I don't even know where on PS1. Can you tell me?


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[fromundaman]

☆ Wait... which part on Pirate Ship you can perform that trick? I know Pokemon Stadium but not Pirate Ship. )= ☆

You know we've had this conversation before.... like 3 times....

On the King of Red Lion's head. I'll try to find the video for *most* of the glitch spots.

Meanwhile, Pink, you can do it on the right edge of the tree on the Grass stage, and on the Windmill's blades at certain angles (Have to be at the tip of the blade, not the long part.).

 

[Pink murder]

Cool, thanks!

But is Pirate ship even legal?


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[fromundaman]

It is in MW at least... shouldn't be though

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Sorry fromundaman, I seem to forget from time to time. )= ☆

☆ Anyways, the Midwest made Port Town Areo Dive legal right? ☆

 

[fromundaman]

Sometimes... Nobody except occasionally OUGA implements it though (Which is too bad... I really don't think it worse than certain other regular CPs, like Japes or LM.).

 

[T1MMY]

Port Town Areo is as worthy of being an available counterpick as Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, etc. Actually, it's probably a better stage for tournaments than those counterpicks I mentioned. That is to say, none of those stages should be seen in serious tournaments.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Port Town Aero would be a huge help to Kirby for characters like Marth, Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, and Ice Climbers. The fact that they mostly ban a stage that would be a huge help for Kirby in most areas. T_T ☆

 

[Kewkky]

I think Port Town is broken. Cars kill you real early, low ceiling, no edges on the majority of the stage, and the floor also causes damage while the main platform is moving... For some of these reasons, I think that the stage is just too "broken" to use; people would be choosing it for tether opponents, or fastfallers for the car kills.

 

[fromundaman]

Port Town Areo is as worthy of being an available counterpick as Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, etc. Actually, it's probably a better stage for tournaments than those counterpicks I mentioned. That is to say, none of those stages should be seen in serious tournaments.

QFT.


Sorry Kewkky, but let's think of it this way:
What do you think of Japes?

Every bannable arguement for PTAD applies to Japes, as do a few others. I made several HUGE posts about this before which I can dig up if needed.

 

[Kewkky]

A difference between Port Town and Japes? Well... Japes doesn't FORCE you into a dangerous situation (the platform lowers, then cars appear for a while... You can get spiked into them at 30% and die), there are many ledges to assure opponents don't exploit that stage mechanism to gimp enemies (in Port Town, tether guys get pushed offstage and they're done for at many parts of the stage... In Japes, this isn't so), Japes' killing hazard isn't dangerous, unless the opponent decides on showing off some ledgehopping techniques or uses the water to go from a side to the other (which would fall under carelessness... in Port Town, even being careful will land you a death [trying to stay airborne while cars pass by, being sourspotted offstage, or forced a get-up when the stage is lowering...])...

I, myself, think that there's too many factors in the stage that make it cheap. It would make fastfallers and some tether characters HAVE to learn a secondary in order to survive being KO'd in a cheap way. Japes has its ways of evading cheapness, plus the high ceiling/close sides is a great stage option when against characters who mainly kill up.

 

[MK26]

Port Town Areo is as worthy of being an available counterpick as Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, etc. Actually, it's probably a better stage for tournaments than those counterpicks I mentioned. That is to say, none of those stages should be seen in serious tournaments.

Rainbow Cruise? You think PTAD is better than RAINBOW CRUISE?!?

I'll have what you're smokin, man.

 

[fromundaman]

A difference between Port Town and Japes? Well... Japes doesn't FORCE you into a dangerous situation (the platform lowers, then cars appear for a while... You can get spiked into them at 30% and die), there are many ledges to assure opponents don't exploit that stage mechanism to gimp enemies (in Port Town, tether guys get pushed offstage and they're done for at many parts of the stage... In Japes, this isn't so), Japes' killing hazard isn't dangerous, unless the opponent decides on showing off some ledgehopping techniques or uses the water to go from a side to the other (which would fall under carelessness... in Port Town, even being careful will land you a death [trying to stay airborne while cars pass by, being sourspotted offstage, or forced a get-up when the stage is lowering...])...

I, myself, think that there's too many factors in the stage that make it cheap. It would make fastfallers and some tether characters HAVE to learn a secondary in order to survive being KO'd in a cheap way. Japes has its ways of evading cheapness, plus the high ceiling/close sides is a great stage option when against characters who mainly kill up.

See, these are the arguements I hear a lot, and are, no offense, from people who don't know the stage very well. Every transformation has "safe zones" (Not = to staying airborne, but on the stage themselves). Granted, you can be thrown/spiked into the cars, but EVERY character can grab release you into the Klaptrap (Neither cars nor Klaptrap are 'random hazards' btw.), not to mention a bunch have throws/strings that can sling you into the Klaptrap's path.

As for the Tether arguement, yes and no. The only characters that can't recover on this stage are Olimar and Ivysaur (well and Link + Ganon, but that's more character flaw than anything), which does not make it bannable. After all, those same arguements can be made on JJ, since tether characters, when they grab the edge, automatically swing into the water unless they were high enough to have time to snap to the edge before swinging down, and this affects ZSS as well as the afore-mentioned two. HOWEVER, PTAD, unlike JJ, does not kill these characters, but rather damages them and gives them another chance to recover thanks to the floor.

JJ also allows for circle camping, and other such gayness. To see more details, look here:

First post in a 3-7 page debate on Japes vs PTAD

On a completely different note:

One thing that I don't see alot of Marios do...Dair, Uair and Bair end fast enough when you SH them that you can actually fastfall them once they've finished (while still aerial from the shorthop) and they'll land laglessly as if you normally did your SHUair, SHDair, or SHBair...except you'll have much more time to react if they happen to shield your attack, if you land your attack and wish to followup, or need to space properly.

If you watch their vids closely (Boss and Famous), you can see them do this when they play each other.

The timing for the fastfall varies between aerials since you need to fastfall them the second that the attack ends for the lag to be cancelled.

Bair, you can fastfall nearly the instant it comes out. As you prolly know, Bair ends extremely fast.

Uair, you must wait until his left leg is perpendicular to the ground before you fastfall. Anytime earlier risks getting the lag from a premature fastfall...something a great deal more punishable.

Dair's timing is a little easier to follow. The attack ends the minute that his arms open up after the spin. This is pariticularly helpful if you want to mix up your shield pressure. I'll usually Dair a shield, and fastfall behind them where I'm close enough to grab them before they can react.

Kirby can do this too, but with different timing. Does anyone make use of this?

 

[T-nuts]

Kirby can do this too, but with different timing. Does anyone make use of this?

umm. i may or may not have seen the main point of that thing you just quoted but is it just saying you have time to fast fall after kirby's short hop aerials?

if so then yeah. i almost never attack a grounded opponent with my bair unless i can fast fall it. otherwise it leaves you wide open afterwards...

 

[fromundaman]

umm. i may or may not have seen the main point of that thing you just quoted but is it just saying you have time to fast fall after kirby's short hop aerials?

if so then yeah. i almost never attack a grounded opponent with my bair unless i can fast fall it. otherwise it leaves you wide open afterwards...

Well, Bair is the obvious one for both chars (Fair as well for Kirby), and both can FF it during any point. It's more for the other aerials. For both char, Dair is the big one, and for both, you can laglessly FF a Dair and follow it into a grab, and it's not something I've seen done much. Uair follows the same principle.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, Bair is the obvious one for both chars (Fair as well for Kirby), and both can FF it during any point. It's more for the other aerials. For both char, Dair is the big one, and for both, you can laglessly FF a Dair and follow it into a grab, and it's not something I've seen done much. Uair follows the same principle.

Yep, I do it all the time. Stringing reverse bairs into tilts or grabs (when you hit them with your face... obviously also works with normal bairs, but the timing is more precise), or uairs close to the ground into utilts or grabs, or the first two fair hits into tilts or grabs, and even dair>grab/ftilt instead of the oh so predictable fsmash.


As for PTAD and Japes...

See, these are the arguements I hear a lot, and are, no offense, from people who don't know the stage very well. Every transformation has "safe zones" (Not = to staying airborne, but on the stage themselves). Granted, you can be thrown/spiked into the cars, but EVERY character can grab release you into the Klaptrap (Neither cars nor Klaptrap are 'random hazards' btw.), not to mention a bunch have throws/strings that can sling you into the Klaptrap's path.

Np on that no offense part, but just for the record, I play friendlies even on the banned places... I've actually played in-tourney on Summit, because me and my opponent agreed to and I was about to win (beat his main, Pit, with Kirby, almost a 3-stock)... Lots of fun.

The thing about the klaptrap is that when it appears, it's there for a very small period of time... Cars are there for a little over 3 seconds, and during that timeframe, your opponent might get you off of the platform and push you down onto their paths (or zone you into a forced landing, resulting in death). And dontcha worry, I know cars aren't random hazards, I know the timing quite well from experience.

As for the Tether arguement, yes and no. The only characters that can't recover on this stage are Olimar and Ivysaur (well and Link + Ganon, but that's more character flaw than anything), which does not make it bannable. After all, those same arguements can be made on JJ, since tether characters, when they grab the edge, automatically swing into the water unless they were high enough to have time to snap to the edge before swinging down, and this affects ZSS as well as the afore-mentioned two. HOWEVER, PTAD, unlike JJ, does not kill these characters, but rather damages them and gives them another chance to recover thanks to the floor.

Tether characters, like I said, are instantly killed once pushed off from the stage at various points due to them not having the ability to cover much horizontal distance without the tethers (goes for ZSS too, sadly). The damaging floor is there, sure, but what happens when tethers use their 2nd jumps and are left with the options to airdodge to their deaths, or get hit by edgeguards and fly farther away/die due to having racked up too much % trying to recover? In JJ, tethers don't die because of these things, and the rushing water is barely ever exploited due to people knowing that they should stay away from the left side of the stage's water currents... Yeah, ZSS is HORRIBLE in JJ due to her losing her awesome sideB (she grapples everywhere, even when not intending to... This would be a very good CP for us Kirbyes against her, since she also kills a lot off the top), but it's just 1 character, versus all the disadvantaged characters in PTAD in the tether recovery sense.

Only character to swing itself into the rushing water in Japes is Ivysaur, since all others' tethers remain the same length as when they were used: Ivysaur's tether, even when grappled as close as possible, stretches the whole way. Of course, this can be fixed by mashing the A button and returning on-stage while Ivy's doing his swinging stuff.

Circle camping, you say? Well... Keep an eye on characters who would camp. If you get taken there by a Falco for example, it's no different than stage advantages gained by other characters when they take you to their best stages (like Wario and Brinstar... Now THAT'S camping).

 

[T-nuts]

Well, Bair is the obvious one for both chars (Fair as well for Kirby), and both can FF it during any point. It's more for the other aerials. For both char, Dair is the big one, and for both, you can laglessly FF a Dair and follow it into a grab, and it's not something I've seen done much. Uair follows the same principle.

OK, i see. I honestly dont use short hop dair that much but i could see how it is more useful when fastfalled.

But yeah, i am pretty much in a habit to fastfall my aerials whenever i can.

 

[Asdioh]

You're talking about autocanceling right? I don't think I understood what it meant fully until recently. I thought it just meant some characters have no lag if you short hop and aerial, like if Kirby does a SH fair, uair, or bair, because the aerial ends right before you touch the ground.

However, I was playing Fox recently, and I noticed that if you fastfall a Bair into the ground in one way, there is very little lag, but if you fastfall a Bair into the ground at a different point, there is absolutely none.

I don't know the exact timing of Kirby's aerials, if there is any. :/
I just know that most of his aerials have very little lag when landing anyway, or in the case of Dair, if it hits the opponent, you can dashgrab or forward tilt them.

So...autocancel frames on his aerials? If I've been sucking with Kirby because I can't autocancel a Bair then this will help me so much -_-

 

[MK26]

Brawl hacking get!

PSA sez all of kirbys aerials have ac frames:
Nair: AC at 56, end at 73
Fair: AC at 41, end at 44
Bair: AC at 28, end at 41
Uair: AC at 22, end at 40
Dair: AC at 48, end at 55

 

[Kewkky]

Brawl hacking get!

PSA sez all of kirbys aerials have ac frames:
Nair: AC at 56, end at 73
Fair: AC at 41, end at 44
Bair: AC at 28, end at 41
Uair: AC at 22, end at 40
Dair: AC at 48, end at 55

So, from what I can tell, it's better for us to get the small landing lag (which is 10 fames or less) than to wait for our moves to AC (except dair, we should AC this, and I always do).

 

[Asdioh]

Brawl hacking get!

PSA sez all of kirbys aerials have ac frames:
Nair: AC at 56, end at 73
Fair: AC at 41, end at 44
Bair: AC at 28, end at 41
Uair: AC at 22, end at 40
Dair: AC at 48, end at 55

edited so it's readable lozlszlkszujslul

Nice...

*has no idea how he's going to use this since he can't count frames IRL*


do you happen to have the frame data showing how long each aerial lasts, so I know what this autocancel frame is in relation to the whole thing?

edit: pasting from T1mmy's guide (which is hopefully not completely wrong and outdated?)

NAIR:
Start-up: 1-9
Hits: 10-32
Cool-down: 10-60?
Hitlag: +7
Aerial Lag: 9 (auto cancel: 4)

FAIR:
Start-up: 1-9
Hits: 10-11, 18-19, 27-28
Cool-down: 28-47
Hitlag: +5, +5, +5
Aerial Lag: 14 (auto cancel: 2)
Auto-cancels on frame 1-9

BAIR:
Start-up: 1-5
Hits: 6-20
Cool-down: 7-26
Hitlag: +8
Aerial Lag: 9 (auto cancel: 2)
Auto-Cancels on frame 5

UAIR:
Start-up: 1-9
Hits: 10-15
Cool-down: 11-30
Hitlag: +6
Aerial Lag: 9
Auto-Cancel: 1-9

DAIR:
Start-up: 1-18
Hits: 19, 23, 28, 32, 36, 40 (ground: 48-49)
Cool-down: ?
HitLag: +3 per hit
Aerial Lag: 16
Auto cancel: 1-17



...yeah, I have no idea now.

*goes to training mode I guess*

 

[fromundaman]

You're talking about autocanceling right? I don't think I understood what it meant fully until recently. I thought it just meant some characters have no lag if you short hop and aerial, like if Kirby does a SH fair, uair, or bair, because the aerial ends right before you touch the ground.

However, I was playing Fox recently, and I noticed that if you fastfall a Bair into the ground in one way, there is very little lag, but if you fastfall a Bair into the ground at a different point, there is absolutely none.

I don't know the exact timing of Kirby's aerials, if there is any. :/
I just know that most of his aerials have very little lag when landing anyway, or in the case of Dair, if it hits the opponent, you can dashgrab or forward tilt them.

So...autocancel frames on his aerials? If I've been sucking with Kirby because I can't autocancel a Bair then this will help me so much -_-

Yup, that's what I meant.
Again, more useful for Mario, but figured I should post it anyway.

Np on that no offense part, but just for the record, I play friendlies even on the banned places... I've actually played in-tourney on Summit, because me and my opponent agreed to and I was about to win (beat his main, Pit, with Kirby, almost a 3-stock)... Lots of fun.

Hehe, I've done a tourny match on Big Blue before for the same reason. Ended it by inhale>walk on tracks XD

Did a number of real matches on PTAD against AZ though, as well as a few against other people.

The thing about the klaptrap is that when it appears, it's there for a very small period of time... Cars are there for a little over 3 seconds, and during that timeframe, your opponent might get you off of the platform and push you down onto their paths (or zone you into a forced landing, resulting in death). And dontcha worry, I know cars aren't random hazards, I know the timing quite well from experience.

While this is entirely true, there are more opportunities for easy 1 hit KOs on Japes than on PTAD (The Klaptrap is on the stage about 5 seconds out of every 10, right?), and, with the exception of a couple things some chars can do on certain PTAD transformations, it is generally easier for EVERY character to get you into a Klaprtap.

Only character to swing itself into the rushing water in Japes is Ivysaur, since all others' tethers remain the same length as when they were used: Ivysaur's tether, even when grappled as close as possible, stretches the whole way. Of course, this can be fixed by mashing the A button and returning on-stage while Ivy's doing his swinging stuff.

Oli does too depending on how many Pikmin he has (though that number is usually low due to them dying when they touch the water), and I believe Link does (But this stage naturally screws him over anyway too.).

As for the rest of the tether arguement, that really only affects 1 other character: ZSS (Unless she gets her down B back when she hits the floor? I don't know.). Now if we want to list characters that get screwed by this stage's lack of edges, I would say ZSS, Ivysaur (though you could just switch pokemon and eliminate that weakness, probably at the cost of a Fsmash, but that's well worth it to be rid of that piece of **** pokemon in my eyes.), Olimar, and Link. These characters are also getting screwed on Japes, possibly even harder for all except ZSS. On top of that, JJ also screws other characters (Mario, Ganon, all of PT's pokemons, Ike, and to a lesser extent D3 and Marth.).

Circle camping, you say? Well... Keep an eye on characters who would camp. If you get taken there by a Falco for example, it's no different than stage advantages gained by other characters when they take you to their best stages (like Wario and Brinstar... Now THAT'S camping).

Yes, Wario on Brinstar is annoying, but I actually mean that a fair number of characters, if the player pays attention to the timer/Klaptrap, and knows the stage, can circle camp like you could on Summit, Hyrule Temple, etc.
Characters like Puff, Peach, MK, Falco, ROB, and a few others can simply keep running from you by going under the platforms with or against the current as soon as they get the lead. A number of them can attack you from beneath the platform as well.



To be perfectly fair though, this whole arguement was originally presented more as a reason to ban Japes than to make PTAD legal (though it can work either way.).

 

[Kewkky]

I was just saying why I thought Japes was more legal than PTAD in my eyes. I still believe Japes to be less dangerous than PTAD, bit I'll leave it as a personal opinion rather than try to persuade you into seeing it my way... Not like either is actually used on major tourneys, so meh.

 

[fromundaman]

I see Japes used often, which is why the discussion in the other thread originally came about

That being said, meh, in which is more dangerous, I feel it depends to which characters, but indeed, I feel that either neither should be legal (Which is most reasonable), or both (kinda more fun, but less fair).

 

[MK26]

Nice...

*has no idea how he's going to use this since he can't count frames IRL*


do you happen to have the frame data showing how long each aerial lasts, so I know what this autocancel frame is in relation to the whole thing?

the 'end' is referring to when the aerial ends if you dont land cancel it. The ac window goes from the 'ac' frame to the 'end' frame

 

[T1MMY]

Ooo, frame data! Where did you get the Auto Cancel info and such? I'll go update the Kirby guide. I can't wait to get the FbF hack so I can get all the info and set to rest my inquisitive brain.

 

[MK26]

Timmy, head on over to the smash workshop, download Project Smash Attacks (you want 0.2.1, not 0.3.1) and BrawlBox (0.59 or later). Then you need to head on over to MeowMix and get the MeowMix Character Effects package.

PSA is for the fit(character).pac files, and BrawlBox is for fit(character)motionetc.pac files, but PSA is usually all youll need (unless you want something really exact like the number of frames kirby spends spinning at the apex of his up-b - go into the motionetc files with BrawlBox, check out the TransN file of any animation, which tells you how much each character moves each frame)

PM me if you need any more help, or ask around the Smash Workshop

there's also a formula for the hitlag on moves, but i cant quite remember what it is...but im fairly sure its directly attached to damage