Keeping it Classy: A Zelda guide

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i kinda like that the zelda board is small on the other boards there seems to be a lot of ***holes and threads that cause fighting in the board. But it is bad we don't have as many people working on finding a bunch of new AT for zelda but zelda is still a great character and if there are any new AT for her i am sure over time they will be found

 

[Tsuteto]

So yeah, that Snake thing? Totally abused that today in the tournament. It was awesome.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

nice i am happy it is that helpful and useful

 

[goodkid]

Yeah I noticed that to, I thought the missile went through because of the invinc. frames, but I guess it goes through because its a projectile. Good to know.

 

[Tristan_win]

Good guide man, I really like the character matchups information but if you could would you please put something up covering Meta Knights as I hear Zelda does a number against him and as a Sheik main I would love to be able to counter Meta Knights since it's one of Sheiks hardest fights.

This would also give me more of an excuse to use Zelda and get better with her in general

 

[Xero67]

Very nice guide overall. Would like to touch a few specifics on using the B-stick though. I use the R for specials as briefly mentioned after the part where you don't recommend the b-stick. Thought i would point out though, that when using the b stick for din's in the opposite direction without any directional input on your left analog the momentum from your jump is more easily maintained. From a dashing short hop to the right if you release the left stick and then hit the c stick to the left you turn around and glide farther to the right than if you just used B and left stick. I ignore any wavebouncing except when playing my most frequent opponent who mains a GaW.

The timing can be easily figured out after a few tries. With the combination of the R special the Din's can be held longer and more easily without having to move back to the B button before it explodes. Controls your spacing very well while still pressuring the opponent. Also, with FW, the b stick has helped me perfect my ledge sweetspotting. In some cases where i haven't used a midair jump to recover and then use the traditional Up+b i find myself stopping downward momentum due to the midair jump going off right before the FW. With the B stick controls i can aim my FW in the direction i want on the left analog and activate the move with the c stick.

This method gives me the same angle that i would be expecting when trying to recover instead of shooting too high and getting badly punished. The more difficult angle of FW can also be input before the recovery and then executed when you have fallen to the appropriate position. Once i figured out this control method i had much more confidence in my attempts to gimp a recovery with either Fair or Dair occasionally. A little practice with the startup lag and this method is now my favorite for controlling zelda.

On the GaW note i wanted to mention that if you have filled his bucket that every now and then i can catch a GaW dumping the bucket if i continue to use Din's. Very rare and super noob move on his part but fun to do. I also try to get him to throw out his bucket in iffy situations so i can try to punish the lag on the bucket but more than often i end up filling the bucket instead Trying to hit him when he is below the ledge line seems to be the most effective because its worth it for the GaW to try and soak the Din's but sometimes he lets himself fall too far.

 

[S2]

Hey everyone, sorry for the slow updates lately.

The matchup section got a little bigger. I'm still working on the section about ATs and Zelda, expect it to launch soon.

Feel free to discuss/give input/etc. This guide changes (especially stuff like matchups) given the community and tournament results.

 

[Peachkid]

Nice guide btw i used to like zelda just as a character in melee but now she is really good for competing. she is my sub along with wolf and lucario. also im not sure if this has been said before but ledgejumping to a fair/bair can result in a easyish sweetspot.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Wow! nice guide, anyway i think can also benefit from FD with zelda i was playing in it with a marth cpu so i sent him flying and he tried to recover i jumped with zelda and tried to meteor smash him but i got the weak hit he falled down a little and in the part of FD where some characters can wall cling i used Farore´s Wind it hit marth and he crashed with it and went right to his dead lol ^_^

 

[SheikSmasher]

Same as royalbood great guide for zelda im not sure yet if ill main her more in brawl then sheik but It will be more likely ill use her over sheik

 

[S2]

I'm glad you guys are enjoying the guide.

The guide doesn't say this, but I'm a huge advocate that players should be able to use both Sheik and Zelda at tournament level.

Then you can choose between them for matchups.

And as dumb as this sounds, it's good to know for when you make a mistake (accidental transform).

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i just got back from a tournament made it to the semis before i lost in the winners bracket to a DK. I had never played a good DK before but by the end of the 2nd match i figured out how to space him better but it was a little to late. After that int the loosers bracket i lost to a guy who won the last tournment i went to (now here come my question) in his first fight he choose pit and like DK i had never fought a good pit so i was wondering who has more range pit or zelda. Also how do most zelda's deal with pits and do you find him to be tough for zelda. (the arrows were not much of a problem for me)

in the 2nd fight he choose snake and it was so close it was a very good/fun fight and my friend who was watching told me that people were saying it was the best fight they had ever seen but sadly i lost. i somehow on battelfield up-B through the stage hit him whith the move and landed on the stage after i thought i was cought under the stage and was dead idk how it happened but it was a moment were you could here everyone (counting myself) gasp. in the end i was one up-smash/up-tilt/fsmash away from a win but i was up-tilted first and we all know how strong snakes up tilt is.

Anyway i just wanted to but that story down but mostly i am asking how to deal with pits since i don't have any good ones nere me to practice on.

 

[Tsuteto]

Be close enough that a Pit thinks that they can approach you. If they're smart they won't. Pit has even worse approach then Zelda does in all reality, and he really only has like, two or three killing moves (Bair, second hit of fsmash, and maybe something else (ftilt probably)). As long as you stay on your toes you should be fine. Oh, and be careful if he glides due to glide cancelling, the most common technique with Metaknights.

Simply predict his arrows to render them mostly useless, get near him but not too close, etc. He can reflect with side b and down b (reflects your whole body with down b), but they leave his back vulnerable, so if you see them coming, get over and get behind, land with a bair/fair/whatever you feel comfortable with or allows. Also, if he's using up b to survive, get out there and hit him, even with a sourspotted kick. He will die due to an inability to use his ub B after that.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

one thing which i was dumb about and kept falling for against pit was i would up-smash forgetting he had one more jump and i would get punished for it.

also an update on the tournament the guy who won the last one i went to and i lost to his pit/snake won again.
he would not of been in the losers braket if he did not play as captain falcon for some of the matches (he won most of the matches he played as cf but he got a lost using him and could not take 2 straght on his opponent)

 

[S2]

The guide has officially been stickied (Yay!). Thanks to everyone who has posted with their positive feedback!

I'm glad everyone is liking it. This is an ongoing project, where there always seems to be more to add (but oh so little time).

New players, feel free to ask questions. Myself or one of the other intelligent Zelda mainer's nearly always have good advice handy.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

congrats on the sticky.

 

[JesiahTEG]

This guide says that Dsmash has less lag than Fsmash, but that's false.

 

[S2]

D-smash has significantly less startup lag/animation than f-smash.

Against certain opponents it's a night and day difference.

 

[goodkid]

This guide is fantastic S2, well written. This seems like a lot to soak in.

 

[Luthien]

This guide says that Dsmash has less lag than Fsmash, but that's false.

How so?

Dsmash's start up time is less than Fsmash's.
Fsmash has WAY more hitstun.
Dsmash's cool down time had a little less lag too, last I checked.

 

[goodkid]

I have a question

So when you DI with any char. is it better to use just the control stick and c-stick, or just control stick? Also which way is better to DI high knockback moves? Just up & towards the stage, or just up & away?

 

[Garde]

Great guide. It was pretty informative. I knew all of the basic move properties and when to use them, as well as Din's Fire, but I'm still on my way to becoming proficient with Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love.

I have a few pointers against Ness (and to some extent, Lucas), as one of my friends is tMoC (a good Ness player from Melee and still plays him in Brawl), who I've played against several times as Zelda.

Ness and Lucas are both absorb happy against Zelda. One thing you can do with Din's Fire is have it explode just out of range for them. I often explode them prematurely in order to stop their approach, or to get them to absorb. This also works in getting them used to the idea that you don't want to hit them with it, so you are more likely to land a Din's Fire when you want to. I've had a considerable amount of success against Ness with Zelda, though the battle is certainly not easy.

One thing you MUST be careful against both Ness and Lucas is their PK Thunder. Good players know how to hit you with the tail end, allowing them to score multiple hits with a single PK Thunder. On platform stages, this becomes a larger problem because you cannot air dodge through platforms at certain distances (making you vulnerable prematurely). The best way that I've found to deal with their PK Thunder spam is to use Nayru's Love. However, both Ness and Lucas are released from their concentration animation the moment you reflect it, allowing them to perform another one or score hits on you if you're too close. When extremely close to Ness/Lucas when they're using PK Thunder and you're airborne, the best solution is to air dodge (unless you get a clear shot to reflect the PK Thunder directly back at them). Even if this pops you up and allows for one or two more PK Thunders to strike you, it's often better than letting them start close range combos.

Also, you must be careful about using aerial attacks against Ness. His f-air is disjointed, so it will beat out all of your moves. Plus, if you attack him while he's shielding (even if you land behind him), he can SH n-air, f-air, or b-air which can easily result in losing a stock. I find the best way to beat him is by baiting him into attacking and then scoring hits on him. Keep your Din's Fire just out of reach of hitting him more often than scoring hits. Healing him is probably going to happen, but if you use Din's right, you'll rack up a lot more damage than you heal him. Always try to get him into the air, as he can't punish you as well when he's not grounded (and it allows for up-smashes, which are a primary source of damage and KO set ups).

You can also Nayru's Love after getting hit by PK Fire to turn the pillar of flame into your own projectile, causing an approaching Ness to get hit by it and set up into a KO move or juggle. Don't over use this as they will learn to expect it and hit you with a PK Thunder or max range dash attack, both of which set up into juggles or KOs.


On a separate note, I have a small amount of experience playing against a few tournament MKs as Zelda (in friendlies, though).

First off, MK's d-smash is considerably faster than Zelda's in both start up and lag. If you ever try to beat his d-smash, you will get hit (if he tries to beat yours, though, you have the possibility of beating him out).

Using Din's Fire like crazy is really the only option I've found against him. It often forces him into the air, where you can dash to up-smash (I hate hyphen smash as a term), or dash attack (while they're airborne) them relatively safely. Also, since MK's up-air has pretty short range, it is possible to time sweet spot d-airs when you are above him (obviously use discretion, since if you are high up and trade hits, you're toast). Up-smash goes through his glide attacks if you throw it out just a tad bit early. Fortunately, a lot of his approach moves will knock you very far away at higher %. You can use his own approaches to space yourself from him as a last resort when you can't seem to shake him any other way (this works on larger stages like FD).

I find that using f-air and b-air sparingly in this match makes it a lot more effective. The less you take to air combat (aside from up-airs), they more risky the MK will become in their own aerial attacks (since they don't have to time to beat out your attacks). I usually end up using f-airs and b-airs only around 2-4 times per match in total (both of them added up), which is considerably less than just about every other move I use, but when I do throw them out, they often score me a KO or at least land with a sweet spot.

I am by no means a great Zelda player. You can watch some matches of mine against a MK player on youtube (links below). They're over WFC, though, so while nothing on them is definitive, it does give ideas to anyone who is curious about how to deal with MK. The MK is fairly decent, but probably not going to win any tournaments. Still, I think they are pretty good examples of what to do and what not to do (I get punished a fair bit in some of them).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QAlxPS_rI3o
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-6-SRpf7e0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7yHYsk0y4ew
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8BbkS9u_hzY

 

[Garde]

I have a question

So when you DI with any char. is it better to use just the control stick and c-stick, or just control stick? Also which way is better to DI high knockback moves? Just up & towards the stage, or just up & away?

A rule of thumb for DI is to hold a direction orthogonal (90 degrees) from the direction the move would normally send you. You NEVER want to DI in the opposite direction of the trajectory you are sent, it does not do anything.

I haven't done much research in getting the most influence out of DI, I just hold a direction on the control stick starting the moment before I experience knockback from a move. Knowledge of moves and split second reactions are key to DIing properly, and this can only be learned through lots of practice/experience.

DIing really depends on the initial knockback of the move and your position on the stage, and the shape/size of the stage. Sometimes it's better not to DI, which I will explain below.

If you get hit by a move that has a lot of horizontal knockback with a slight upward angle, you'll generally want to DI up and toward the stage. If you are in the middle of a stage or off to one side getting knocked away from the stage, you will usually want to DI up and toward the stage.
However, if you are on the far end of a stage and flying across the entire stage, it is often times better to not DI, as DIing upward increases your chances of getting star KOed.

If you get hit by a move that sends upward, it's better to DI directly to the side, or down and to a side (depends on normal knockback trajectory of the move). Upward moves you will almost always want to DI. However, at lower %, DIing upward (and optionally to the side) can often be beneficial to getting yourself out of range of attacks that would normally combo. Deciding whether to DI toward the opponent or away from the opponent from upward trajectory moves is situational, and often comes down to guessing what your opponent will do.

 

[S2]

On the previous subject of smashes...

i can see the argument that f-smash is slightly less laggy at end. This is true slightly in that there is less time between the end of the last hit of the f-smash and the neutral position than with the d-smash.

In reality though, both moves take up the same amount of time. Test it by getting two Zelda's to smash at the same time, then do an action out of the smash. They should sync up if the timing is exact.

Meaning your going to be committed to the attack just as long either way. The f-smash's "true lag" is relatively small at the end. But the move leaves you stuck in one position, with no defense against a large portion of her body (back, top, certain aerial angles, etc).

 

[JesiahTEG]

How so?

Dsmash's start up time is less than Fsmash's.
Fsmash has WAY more hitstun.
Dsmash's cool down time had a little less lag too, last I checked.

I could have SWORN that Fsmash was less laggier. I was testing it last night, I was positive.

I'm testing it again. It's close than I thought. Can't tell really, if I had to guess I'd say Fsmash is quicker.

 

[S2]

Well Jesiah as I mentioned somewhere, you are right in that F-smash has less lag between the last hit of the attack and the neutral position. Not by much, but yeah, it does.

But it's deceptive. Because of hitstun, the face that both moves actually take up the same amount of time. So your commitment to either move is the same physical time, but Zelda simply has more hits on the f-smash (only the last hit can't be DIed out of).

But strictly speaking, the f-smash's end lag is just a teeny bit smaller than the d-smash. Which can be deceptive too, because the d-smash hits in front before it hits in back. If you measure the very end of the d-smash hitbox behind Zelda the actual lag on the d-smash isn't as long as it seems if your not hitting anyone. Still it's not lag free. And you can be punished by a shielding/fast opponent.

 

[Garde]

Doesn't f-smash become active later than d-smash? I find d-smash to be a great move to retaliate with when I shield fairly quick attacks. I can't really do the same with f-smash, but I haven't tried much because I always sort of assumed f-smash was slower.

I don't disagree that the actual duration of each move is the same (start up, active frames, and lag all added up), but I think d-smash does become active first, making it a better choice to retaliate with than f-smash. I honestly don't use f-smash all that often because it seems to have more start up than I like in moves (her f-tilt seems to have comparable lag, though). While both f-smash and f-tilt have decent reach and good priority, I find that against faster characters that are up close, I prefer either d-smash or jab A to dash attack/dash grab/dash up-smash.

 

[S2]

Yeah, I'm going to put this 1 more time (this stuff is in the guide).

Facts

1.) F-smash and d-smash take up the same amount of time total.

2.) D-smash has less startup lag (none basically).

3.) F-smash has slightly less ending lag, simply because Zelda holds the attack longer.

This makes f-smash seem like it has no lag on the end, but in reality d-smash is just as quick, but all of d-smashe's lag is at the very end (and it's not that much, if your counting the full extent of Zeldas leg's hitbox behind her).


Strategy:

D-smash: You use this exclusively (nearly) when an opponent gets within a certain proximity of you. That proximity depends on the character (certain characters like Snake can seem deceptively far, but his roll can get him close and hit you out of stuff from deceptively far).

F-smash: When spaced far enough way use this. It's Zelda's longest range attack. I've said before not to spam this, but that's a half truth. Newbs shouldn't spam it. You can spam it if you're using it to keep opponent's away from you, as it's Zelda's longest range attack. If you're spamming, make sure your opponent is right at the end of the hitbox. This way they can't get in close enough to hit you/get behind you, but aren't far enough so that they can jump over and hit you. Remember that F-smash leaves you open from the air. At certain aerial angles in front of you, characters like Ness (or anyone with a high priority air attack) can get past the f-smash.

Generally you don't want to use f-smash as a defensive maneuver (that is, an opponent has gotten really close and you feel threatened, I don't simply mean you camping and keeping them at bay). That's because it's hitbox doesn't protect you and once you commit to it, your stuck for a while. Not to mention the startup allows an opponent whose too close to change his position.

D-smash is very fast and pretty high priority. It's best for when you need a very quick attack or to keep off an opponent who has gotten too close. It can be shielded/dodged and punished, so it's not a get out of jail free card. But it is massively good for punishing any mistakes an opponent might make when they are too close to you.

Choosing between the two is a spacing thing. Learning the spacing just come with playing a lot of Zelda against really skilled opponents (because they will always punish you for bad spacing).

And don't forget about your tilts/neutral A. They are all useful. Choose which ones you use though, based on matchup. Some of Zelda's tilts aren't that effective against long ranged characters (Marth, DDD, etc) because you can be punished for a missed attack (ex: Marth can f-smash punish a missed tilt because your f-smash is the only move that outranges that).

 

[Airgemini]

I think you should add the damage percentages to the attacks. Just noticed there werent any
Or maybe some KO percents?

 

[Stiputation]

I'm really sorry guys for interjecting my opinion considering I'm such a low class player when it comes to Zelda. But I have been watching your videos Garde and I must say you are quite impressive.

But uhmm, one thing that always assists me in KOing a pretty good MK player, is to use Faeroe's wind whenever your right over him. Use it downwards to get some pretty good knockback and some damage as well. It really isn't much, but it helps.

 

[S2]

I'd be happy to add damage if I get the time, but even happier if someone else provided it. Keep in mind these would have to be non-damage decayed and if the opponent hit all of the attack (since many of Zelda's attacks are multihit).

KO percents though is a bit of a problem, here's why.

How you hit with an attack and on which stage is going to make a big difference. For instance, how an enemy gets hit with the d-smash will change not only the amount of damage, but how far they fly. A non-decayed d-smash can kill at low percents in some instances, but in others fail to kill an enemy at high percent because of how they got hit with it. This is purely characters dieing off the side of the screen. The killing power of a d-smash is greater on characters with bad vertical recovery. Hitting correctly with a non-decayed d-smash can kill a character like Marth at a lower percent because the trajectory it throws him makes it hard to recover.

Not to mention, Zelda is a character who is highly effected by move decay because you're going to need her killing attacks to rack up damage (because these attacks are also ones with high priority and the best distance/spacing).

 

[Veng]

Edit: NVM i didnt read it all

 

[DanGR]

impressive guide man. You might want to include a section on how to approach, rather than only defensive guide. also, you excluded Olimar from the matchups.

1.) F-smash and d-smash take up the same amount of time total.

2.) D-smash has less startup lag (none basically).

3.) F-smash has slightly less ending lag, simply because Zelda holds the attack longer.

so, from looking at this, wouldn't fsmash>dsmash(if you miss the fsmash) be a good thing to include into your game? fsmash has low ending lag paired up with fast starting time from the dsmash=good move variation?

 

[DanGR]

sorry bout the dp

 

[S2]

F-smash into d-smash is possible, but situational.

You can attack very quickly out of your f-smash, so that's a plus.

The problem is that, d-smash has less range than f-smash. So if your opponent is already out of your range, an immediate d-smash isn't going to hit him either.

You could still use the d-smash as a defense though, if the opponent is dumb enough to roll into you after your f-smash (maybe he was blocking and at the further end of f-smash's hitbox) or he's behind you and not quick enough to land his attack/grab.


The most important thing though is this, make sure your smashes aren't becoming predictable. D-smash is fast enough that it can punish most moves, but your still left open if you miss (or it's blocked).

Hope that helps.

 

[PK-ow!]

So guys, I don't understand Peach at all. I mean her moves make no sense to me, which I take to be exactly why it's so easy for just any decent player to kick my butt - no matter which character I use, of course.

But I'm asking here anyway.

So, how does Peach work, and how does that translate into Zelda beating her?

 

[S2]

Most Peach players are going to abuse her floating, since she can cancel some of her air attacks upon landing (if she times it right). Specifically many will abuse d-air and f-air a lot.

I don't fight a lot of Peaches, but here's a few suggestions. Feel free to correct me if I'm completely wrong, as I can't tell you offhand which of Peach's moves outprioritize yours.

1.) Watch where she's floating. If she's too high, run under her with a sliding upsmash. If she's too low, she's in your F-smash range.

2.) You don't have to play her game. You can retreat and Din's if she's float abusing. Also, catching turnips was very possible in Melee, it's even easier here. Don't let her projectile pressure you.

3.) Know when you can sweetspot f/b-air punish her. This might take some practice, but a floating Peach is a big target. So watch for when she makes a mistake and punish.

 

[Ulevo]

I suggest you place Wario into your section for very large advantages. Zelda is able to grab Wario, voluntarily release him, and follow it up with a Fair or USmash. Try it for yourself.

 

[hack-killer]

How can you press B and the C-stick? I am aware of "the claw." I can't imagine using a finger to get B.
If you are, I'm at a disadvantage. I can't reliably move my finger muscles that way. (Gosh darn fine motor control. I'm a-fightin' an uphill battle with these fangled console games. . . )


Umm... that's what Lucas' B-stick PK Fire is like. Except it goes really far back, and not just because PK fire gives backward momentum anyway.

Ness and Samus can reverse their momentum with fair if C-stick is on smash or attack. It's very pronounced, as though they are pushed backward, rather than reversing momentum with mere DI.

EDIT: Almost forgot:



If it's JUST A OPINION (sic), then I reject your claims and there's nothing you can do about it.
However, it's not just an opinion, it's a belief-of-fact that can be supported or refuted with empirical evidence. We'd need advanced measurement equipment to know if other people are 'predicting' what you're doing and if you're becoming 'used to' it, but I think we can make some inferences from how the games play out.
If people counter your spamminess, then we can say pretty surely they predicted you. If you make errors in overusing the move (errors being times that you get hit because you were stunned from the move), then you're getting used to it.

Simple metrics. Not opinion. Either you're wrong or your right. Now have some backbone and actually stand by your assertions, because if you don't, you're just making spam.

But aside from all that, you've made a loaded statement because you said people shouldn't abuse Zelda moves. By definition, abuse is a kind of use that is bad. So of course we shouldn't abuse Zelda' moves. But what constitutes abuse, then? I believe non-scrubs will deny that it is possible to abuse any move.

well first of all let me correct myself its not abuse i was looking for my misteak
its over use.... and as for my OPINION! i believe its true but i cant say its a fact
seeing how i never did research! so there

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

**these Matchups Are Based On The Topic In The Swf Tactical Forum Matchup Topic. Meaning That These Matchups Are Based On Input From All Players, Not Just Zelda Users. The Original Topic Can Be Found Here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979 **

Eeek!!!!!!!!!!