Keeping it Classy: A Zelda guide

[Luthien]

What do you mean, edge guard with a dtilt?
Usually I think of 'spiking' to be from a dsmash instead of a tilt.

Edit: Ok I am going to use some common sense here and try to guess.
You're saying if your dtilt and they're over the edge, it sends them flying down?

In my experience, the kong monkeys are the only ones that can consistently pull off that type of KO. Maybe we should make an edge guard topic?

My edge guarding is kind of weak, it might be interesting to discuss all the various techniques people use, and what works better against different characters or on different levels.

The dtilt spike is tricky. If you hit your opponent in a certain area, they won't get popped up like the usual dtilt, they'll fly straight down. It happens all the time when you dtilt spam, but the floor is there to keep them from falling any further. However, if you are on the ledge and dtilt spike, the opponent will keep falling at a pretty fast rate. It's uncommon because it's pretty difficult to pull off. Oh, and Zelda's dsmash never spikes.

 

[sFoster]

Oh, and Zelda's dsmash never spikes.

Maybe I don't understand the spike terminology then.

If you sweet spot a dsmash when your opponent is in the air, they shoot straight down to their death. What is spiking?

 

[Luthien]

Maybe I don't understand the spike terminology then.

If you sweet spot a dsmash when your opponent is in the air, they shoot straight down to their death. What is spiking?

Woah, wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. Dsmash has a sweetspot? Also, I just assumed it sent at a very low angle, never straight down. Never had a dsmash spike happen before. But whatever, I'll have to try it out. Learn something new every day.

 

[sFoster]

Yeah dsmash has a sweet spot but your opponent has to be airborn.
Basically go into training, set them to jump and you can try it out.

It's a relatively useless move if they're on the ground.

 

[blink777]

Yeah dsmash has a sweet spot but your opponent has to be airborn.
Basically go into training, set them to jump and you can try it out.

It's a relatively useless move if they're on the ground.

Uhh... DSmash on the ground... or DSmash in the air (it's called Dair)?

 

[sFoster]

Uhh... DSmash on the ground... or DSmash in the air (it's called Dair)?

You're right, I made a mistake there
No sweet spot for dsmash, luthien is correct..

This is not my day

 

[Luthien]

You're right, I made a mistake there
No sweet spot for dsmash, luthien is correct..

This is not my day

Lol

Thanks Blink. I was about to go check those out. Glad I didn't have to waste any time in training!

By the way, good games last night sFoster! Those were fun!

 

[sFoster]

Lol

Thanks Blink. I was about to go check those out. Glad I didn't have to waste any time in training!

By the way, good games last night sFoster! Those were fun!

Yeah, sorry I mixed up the terminology there.
But on the prior subject usually I think of dair for spikes

They were good games, haha for the record if anybody is wondering luthien wrecked me
I learned a few things from the games I'll have to incorporate.

Also you had some great edge guard

 

[tag yeah]

Great guide! I really love sweet spotting her D-air what a satisfying spike! especially for the second you see the move hit and they are paused in the air and know their fate!

 

[Ztarfish]

Luthien thinks any game is fun as long as he gets a sweetspotted Ledgehopped/warped Fair in.
If that hadn't happened he'd probably think the game was only Ok.

 

[S2]

Luthien thinks any game is fun as long as he gets a sweetspotted Ledgehopped/warped Fair in.
If that hadn't happened he'd probably think the game was only Ok.

lol, is there anything wrong with that? Everyone likes getting an epic F-air.

Really, hitting any of Zelda's aerials with the sweetspot (or simply the up-air) brings heart-warming joy.

 

[PK-ow!]

You have it down that Dsmash can't hurt opponents who jump; that indeed, it only sweeps the ground.

I know you can hit people who jump. I did it only a few times, but if they're about where her raised hand is as she spins, they'll be hit.

The knockback seems to be mostly the same.

Great guide. I came looking for answers to my Farore's Wind + Dair curiosities and had them swiftly and succinctly sated.

I might have some things to say about the Ness matchup.

EDIT: Here's what I have to say:

As a Ness player, if I am fighting Zelda, I notice that I am wary to use my grabs. The running grab can be punished by Zelda because she can dodge herself into the right spacing for her Fsmash, or jump for an Nair or what have you. Consideration of a standing grab leads me to the next point.

Note this well: Zelda actually has the advantage when she's close to Ness (close as in sprite-pushing proximity). Ness doesn't want to find himself standing next to Zelda, because his smashes don't have the right timing - Zelda can grab - and his tilts can be shield grabbed. If you're a Zelda and you're spontaneously dodging just because Ness goes up close to you, don't! You're doing something that relieves that Ness player immensely; he's the one who made a mistake - punish him accordingly. Dsmash comes to mind.

So, what he have is that Ness needs to go into the air, as is his strength. But if he jumps from close to you, you have many options, including simple avoidance - and make sure to avoid any followup after a double jump. I'm not saying it's massively in your favour, but it's nothing like despairing. Anyway, if you dodge or block such a close-ranged (shorthopped) aerial attack, that will put you at the spacing either for PK or the following and final data:

When he's away, on ground or in the air, that's when the match is even. You have the possibility of sneaking a Din's Fire past that Ness' vigilance, you have every ability to pull out your awesome aerials. You have slight priority advantages against Ness. That's how you have to win.

 

[Heevar_Lewlson]

Great guide! I really love sweet spotting her D-air what a satisfying spike! especially for the second you see the move hit and they are paused in the air and know their fate!

Yeah heh, I get a warm fuzzy feeling whenever my b-air/f-air sweetspots Classic Intarbuts "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am" comes to mind

 

[DeathCoyle]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssss!

Thank you for writing this guide. Zelda is one of my mains (along w/Lucario and Zamus) and this helped me a lot. I recently gave one of my better sparing partners a sound beating by Din's spamming the **** out of him; it really does work.

 

[ORly?]

you have every ability to pull out your awesome aerials. You have slight priority advantages against Ness. That's how you have to win.

My frustration when fighting Ness is 1. I don't fight good Ness' very often so I am out of practice and 2. I find it difficult to approach Ness in the air because n-air does not have enoguh range (Sparkles!) and f-air/b-air are too unreliable to be a steady approach...the air is where i am weak...should I just mix in a Nayru's Love?

 

[S2]

Yeah, with a lot of Zelda's tougher matchups, its going to be very hard until you get some experience against good players. Even with anti-Ness/ G&W / Lucas, etc. tips, if you don't have experience against them your going to be in a bit of trouble.

Also, you don't have to approach Ness. Just because you can't Din's spam him doesn't mean you can't force him to be the aggressor.

Zelda's air game is weak as an approach because her f/b airs and d-air are sweetspots that'll leave you open if you get the sourspot. Many air attack will outprioritize and hit you before you get close enough to land the sweetspots. Granted these moves are good situationally and to punish mistakes, but not so good if your trying to use them for straight offensive approaches (every once and a while it'll work if your opponent isn't expecting it).

Nayru's is very good, just don't overuse it and be predictable.

Work on a strong defensive spacing game on the ground. Zelda doesn't do well in aerial battles against most characters, simply because her sweetspots require her to be too close and her sourspots suck massively by leaving you open. Her ground defense is strong, just make sure your not just smashing, it'll get predictable and you'll be punished.

Work on a strong ground game, revew the Ness matchup tips, and just get experience against good Ness players (if you can find them). I hate to say it, but there is no substitute for actual experience against a good player. Its hard to apply character matchup info if your not already grounded with some actual matches against a good Ness user. If your WFC connection is good, look for some online. Go to the SWF:FF and say your looking for Ness experience.

 

[Voidious]

Hey guys, great post and great thread. Just one thing I wanted to add, which I was surprised wasn't mentioned anywhere, was that Din's does twice as much damage/knockback at full range than at point blank range. (Well, I can't as precisely measure the knockback, but the damage is like 16 : 8.)

Apologies if this is just common knowledge or if another reply mentioned it (I've only perused the comments beyond the original post so far).

 

[S2]

The guide has been updated yet again. If you want to know what, check the Din's fire section. Its about three times as long now and crammed with good info to take your Din's usage from spamming to wisely spamming.

 

[sFoster]

"2.) Spacing via Din's in the air.

How you jump while doing an air Din's will move you in a given direction. This is nice for spacing yourself if your chasing an opponent or trying to play keepaway.

Naturally, just using Din's in the air will cause you to go forward slowly. But the move is influenced by your prior momentum, so use that knowledge to move around while spamming.

-Jumping forward + Din's will give you forward momentum.
-Jumping backward + Din's will give you slight backwards momentum.
-Jumping one direction and using Din's the opposite direction will slow/stop most of your momentum."

You missed some spacing opportunities here, specifically wavebouncing.
Jump and hold forward, press special + backward (using c-stick)

This will send the dins forward, but zelda will reverse her momentum to the opposite direction.
It's basically a fake out.

Also if you're edge guarding, it's best to use the c-stick+special to use dins.
This guarentee's you won't move forward..

And if you're by the edge, and move forward when you shoot a dins that spells bad news since you lose any jumping or teleporting possibilities

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

And if you're by the edge, and move forward when you shoot a dins that spells bad news since you lose any jumping or teleporting possibilities

*sigh*

Bad memories suddenly came to life here. How many matches have I lost because of this? Too many... >.<

Haven't thought about using the C-stick for Din's, thanks for that. I don't use the C-stick right now e/w so I guess I'll try it out.

 

[hack-killer]

THIS IS JUST A OPINION! but i never think u should abuse
Zelda's moves cause if u do then u become to predictable
and u become to use to doing that so thats what i think >.>

 

[FinalKai]

That pretty much goes for every character...and every kind of play strategy...but yea...it's something everyone should pay attention to

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

I tested the use of the C-stick for specials today, and... Woah! It simplifies like h*ll! Now, all of a sudden, my Faroes's were a lot easier to navigate (my margin of error decreased dramatically) and Din's Fire... I just think it's working much better for me now. And I never have to be afraid of falling down ledges again! Faced another Zelda player that was equal to me today, and I got a good laugh when he fell down after a Din's.

Thanks for that tip, its worked incredibly well for me. I've made it my standard to start of every Faroe and Din with C now as well.

 

[sFoster]

Cool Chauzu, glad it worked out for you. I love it for the specials as well.
Something else I've noticed about FW is that if you're fast falling, using the c-stick doesn't cancel your momentum before the teleport either.

Have you tried reversing your momentum yet with dins in the air?
If you're traveling in one direction, it's possible to abruptly change your momentum to the other direction.

The c-stick specials make that really easy, and it's possible to do this while shooting a dins to either side of you.

It's a pretty handy for mind games, and I think zelda benefits from this technique more than any other character on the roster. Nobody else appears to have their character's momentum altered to this much of a degree.

For example jump toward somebody, and naturally they'll try to out-prioritize your attack, but instead you turn on a dime to the opposite direction and send a dins fireball into them with a single move

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

Have you tried reversing your momentum yet with dins in the air?
If you're traveling in one direction, it's possible to abruptly change your momentum to the other direction.

The c-stick specials make that really easy, and it's possible to do this while shooting a dins to either side of you.

It's a pretty handy for mind games, and I think zelda benefits from this technique more than any other character on the roster. Nobody else appears to have their character's momentum altered to this much of a degree.

For example jump toward somebody, and naturally they'll try to out-prioritize your attack, but instead you turn on a dime to the opposite direction and send a dins fireball into them with a single move

Hmm... No, I haven't tried that. Will do so when I go into Training Mode tomorrow. Thanks for all the nice tips, e/w! =)

Btw, just wanted to thank the tips the guide gave about zigzagging the Din... It works extremely well, I must say. Don't understand why though - is it because it looks abnormal or something? But it throws them of if you use it from time to time, alright.

 

[S2]

I don't actually B-stick, but I'll try it with Zelda for a bit just to get a better understanding.

In the past I've been against it because I value the speed at which the c-stick can get you a quick down smash (or any smash really). Obviously, you can still use the stick to smash but technically its much faster and a smaller error rate for ultra fast smash attacks if your using the C-stick.

I'll try it, but after so much Melee experience I don't really want to relearn c-stick usage.

 

[sFoster]

I don't actually B-stick, but I'll try it with Zelda for a bit just to get a better understanding.

In the past I've been against it because I value the speed at which the c-stick can get you a quick down smash (or any smash really). Obviously, you can still use the stick to smash but technically its much faster and a smaller error rate for ultra fast smash attacks if your using the C-stick.

I'll try it, but after so much Melee experience I don't really want to relearn c-stick usage.

I'm not actually suggesting B-sticking .. I think the smash stick is too valuable.
What I was saying is use the smash(c)-stick and press B at the same time.

Also the advantage to FW is that it's a directional move, and generally you need to tap up, and then quickly move into position. This way you can put it into position at any point you want, since it's the c-stick that initiates the teleport and your control still is pretty much free to do with it as you well.

While Grounded - SmashStick to the left/right + B = Dins fire w/o any chance of movement.
While fastfalling - c-stick up + b won't need you to press directional up and cancel your downward momentum.

That and using the following controls makes zelda's flight patterns really erratic and are pretty easy to pull off..

Run and jump while holding foward, and press c-stick backward+ B will jolt zelda back and send a fireball forwads.

Run and jump while holding forward, then press c-stick forward + B and tap the control stick to the left will jolt zelda backwards and send a fireball backwards

I only started playing around with this a few days ago but it can make your flight patterns a lot more unpredictable. If you didn't know about those moves yet you'll love them lol.

I don't know of any other characters that will fully reverse their momentum using those controls.. Most just jolt backward a few steps and then do an attack, but for zelda is seems particularly advantageous

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm not actually suggesting B-sticking .. I think the smash stick is too valuable.
What I was saying is use the smash(c)-stick and press B at the same time.

Also the advantage to FW is that it's a directional move, and generally you need to tap up, and then quickly move into position. This way you can put it into position at any point you want, since it's the c-stick that initiates the teleport and your control still is pretty much free to do with it as you well.

While Grounded - SmashStick to the left/right + B = Dins fire w/o any chance of movement.
While fastfalling - c-stick up + b won't need you to press directional up and cancel your downward momentum.

How can you press B and the C-stick? I am aware of "the claw." I can't imagine using a finger to get B.
If you are, I'm at a disadvantage. I can't reliably move my finger muscles that way. (Gosh darn fine motor control. I'm a-fightin' an uphill battle with these fangled console games. . . )

I don't know of any other characters that will fully reverse their momentum using those controls.. Most just jolt backward a few steps and then do an attack, but for zelda is seems particularly advantageous

Umm... that's what Lucas' B-stick PK Fire is like. Except it goes really far back, and not just because PK fire gives backward momentum anyway.

Ness and Samus can reverse their momentum with fair if C-stick is on smash or attack. It's very pronounced, as though they are pushed backward, rather than reversing momentum with mere DI.

EDIT: Almost forgot:

THIS IS JUST A OPINION! but i never think u should abuse
Zelda's moves cause if u do then u become to predictable
and u become to use to doing that so thats what i think >.>

If it's JUST A OPINION (sic), then I reject your claims and there's nothing you can do about it.
However, it's not just an opinion, it's a belief-of-fact that can be supported or refuted with empirical evidence. We'd need advanced measurement equipment to know if other people are 'predicting' what you're doing and if you're becoming 'used to' it, but I think we can make some inferences from how the games play out.
If people counter your spamminess, then we can say pretty surely they predicted you. If you make errors in overusing the move (errors being times that you get hit because you were stunned from the move), then you're getting used to it.

Simple metrics. Not opinion. Either you're wrong or your right. Now have some backbone and actually stand by your assertions, because if you don't, you're just making spam.

But aside from all that, you've made a loaded statement because you said people shouldn't abuse Zelda moves. By definition, abuse is a kind of use that is bad. So of course we shouldn't abuse Zelda' moves. But what constitutes abuse, then? I believe non-scrubs will deny that it is possible to abuse any move.

 

[sFoster]

Umm... that's what Lucas' B-stick PK Fire is like. Except it goes really far back, and not just because PK fire gives backward momentum anyway.

Ness and Samus can reverse their momentum with fair if C-stick is on smash or attack. It's very pronounced, as though they are pushed backward, rather than reversing momentum with mere DI.

When traveling in a direction, zelda can shoot dins in either of 2 directions, and also propel herself in either of 2 directions. It basically creates 4 possibilities, allowing for you to feign retreats or approaches to look like one another.

With Zelda, it's like what you were saying where lucas propells himself.
The difference is that lucas can only propel himself in the opposite direction of his projectile.

In contrast, zelda can jump away from sombody, jump away a second time, and then all of the sudden throw a dins backward at her opponent and propel herself toward them at the same time.

It's not just basic DI because her momentum spins on a dime and instantly reverses.
It's very jerky and abrupt, and also when a din's is out unless you are decoupled it is not possible to DI with her in the first place.

** Edit:
Controller Usage:

That move I just described is possible to do without the c-stick. Just be holding forward and press B while in the air, then quickly tap the control stick backward. If you do it right zelda and the dins will both swing backward.

I tried using a gamecube controller, and I agree thats pretty difficult to use the c-stick and the b-button. You'd have to reassign the B to either L, R or Z.

I use the wii-mote/nunchuck combo, with the d-pad as a c-stick and this is really easy to pull off all of these moves with. It's almost natural.

 

[sFoster]

Sorry for my wall of text.. consider this:

"Jumping backward + Din's will give you slight backwards momentum."

If you jump backward, then use the c-stick+b to send your din's forward it doesn't cancel out any of your backwards momentum. You never have to press the control stick forward..

Essentially, it gives you the maximum propulsion effect.

 

[S2]

Guess I misunderstood you SFoster, I thought you'd been talking about B-sticking.

And I agree with you 100% that the c-stick smashes are way too valuable to give up. At least for Zelda, I hear its become popular amongst certain Lucas players to adopt that control scheme.

Yeah, expect a more fleshed out update on Din's and Zelda's momentum. There are a lot of cool little tricks with it. I spent a while in training today trying different stuff, fun times.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

Hmm... Well, C-sticking's never been anything for me, so I'm going to stick with B-sticking now.

(Get it? Stick with? XD)

 

[sFoster]

Yeah, expect a more fleshed out update on Din's and Zelda's momentum. There are a lot of cool little tricks with it. I spent a while in training today trying different stuff, fun times.

Cool. This momentum reversal stuff is a lot of fun to play with.
It's too bad the control scheme isn't a little more flexibile.

B-Sticking wouldn't be too bad if you could replace down with d-smash.
Kind of ironic since her down-special is rather useless.

 

[S2]

Yeah, I fooled around with the B-stick for a few minutes.

While it makes it easy to run and then immediatly fly straight backwards when you Din's, the advantages you lose for this cool trick doesn't make it worth it in my opinion.

Everyone has their preference though. But yeah, if it were just the Side-B that'd be cool. But you don't get too much out of mapping farore's or transform to the c-stick.

Given the strength of Zelda's smashes on her game, I'm still recommending that player use the c-stick for smashes, just because it always delivers the fastest possible smash.

 

[sFoster]

Given the strength of Zelda's smashes on her game, I'm still recommending that player use the c-stick for smashes, just because it always delivers the fastest possible smash.

It's definitely necessary to have the downsmash.
At this point I might have to declare the wii-mote/nunchuck functionally superior.

With the d-pad set the smashes.. and the ease of combining that w/ the b-button on this controller I am basically getting the best of smashes and specials all at once.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

For example jump toward somebody, and naturally they'll try to out-prioritize your attack, but instead you turn on a dime to the opposite direction and send a dins fireball into them with a single move

I've been training this for about 30 mins now and... It's awesome! I like to approach with Zelda, but she doesn't have many options for that... It's either to jump and jumpcancel or nair, or dash attack or dash grab. But now, she got another one... It seems to work amazing. I'll throw this into my game now and it will surely make it easier for me to approach in several different ways. The backward momentum you get is incredible as well... It's just fantastic.

And don't come saying that I shouldn't approach with Zelda, because I don't care. ;P

 

[Looper]

PK flash, not Pk cross

 

[sFoster]

Haha chazu I knew you would love it! I'm glad you tried it out.

It really does make for some great approaches and fake outs.
Short hops too, it opens up a bunch of new possibilities and some approaches that actually work.

Probably gives way to some of zelda's strongest approach tactic I've seen so far.

The key is just not to overuse it, but if you only do that a few times a match the sudden shift in her momentum is really unpredictable.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

Haha chazu I knew you would love it! I'm glad you tried it out.

It really does make for some great approaches and fake outs.
Short hops too, it opens up a bunch of new possibilities and some approaches that actually work.

Probably gives way to some of zelda's strongest approach tactic I've seen so far.

The key is just not to overuse it, but if you only do that a few times a match the sudden shift in her momentum is really unpredictable.

Yeah, it really opens up more possibilities... I've still got some issues with it, have to train it some more (sometimes I accidentily B-stick a lil upwards, resulting in FW... I died once because of it ) but I'll probably have mastered it by the end of the week.

I'll be getting a GameBridge soon, so if nobody can record this, I can do it when I get it and upload it on YouTube.

 

[sFoster]

Yeah, it really opens up more possibilities... I've still got some issues with it, have to train it some more (sometimes I accidentily B-stick a lil upwards, resulting in FW... I died once because of it ) but I'll probably have mastered it by the end of the week.

I'll be getting a GameBridge soon, so if nobody can record this, I can do it when I get it and upload it on YouTube.

This will make an awesome video, no doubt.
I've practiced this a lot, and have come up with a few cool scenario's I wouldn't mind showing off for a video if anyone wants to include me haha.

I've actually gotten into the (bad?) habit now of preforming this off of the edge lol.
Jump off the edge and then shoot backward to safety.. which got me killed quite a few times when I first practiced it.

It works amazing for edge guarding and throwing people off, but obviously if you jump off the edge and accidently go forward with din's you're in a tight spot lol. I don't think it's anything I would do in a serious money game, but I find it pretty reliable at this point and it's a lot of fun in normal games.