Keeping it Classy: A Zelda guide

[OmegaXF]

Reading this guide makes me want to start playing Zelda

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Reading this guide makes me want to start playing Zelda

if your main is Bowser... then it wouldn't hurt to pick up a higher tiered character.

 

[DanGR]

s2, I interested in seeing where you'd put Olimar in her matchups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

s2, I interested in seeing where you'd put Olimar in her matchups.

his matchups, at least at this point, are taken from IvanEva's matchup chart... and it's not been updated recently.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

a new tec

i remember reading on the tactical discussion board that if you are a tall character (like zelda) and grab wario (has to be a tall person so his feet are off the ground when you grab him) and let him escape from the grap he will go into the air a wont be able to do anything for a little bit of time giving the graber a chance for a free hit. so first i tried this against the computer and after trying some diffrent things i found i could hit him with a fair before he started moving. it was late ata night when i was doing this so i was alone so i went into training mode and held the joystick left so wario would move left as soon as he could and then i tried it again and it still worked. the only thing i have not gotten to try yet was having wario trie to attack before i could get the fair off but from my test i dont think he will be able to. THIS MEANS FREE LIGHTNING KICKS ON WARIO IF YOU GRAB HIM. i will try to test wario attacking today as soon as i can.

stage note: this makes stages with platforms a bad place to fight him. he is able to land on the platform and shiled before you can hit him. so battlefiled is a bad place to fight him. on smashville if you grab him in the same direction the platform is moving he will and up above you and i think you can get a free up-smash on him. This makes final D a great stage to fight him since no platform can come in your way.

Also the only time i have not been able to pull this off is when i am so close to the edge my character does the animation of going to fall off the edge of the stage it seems to stop you from being able to jump right away but thats not a big deal.

 

[S2]

The "official" matchups is taken from the tactical board. I didn't make those up. But I did note some matchups where Zelda players aren't in full agreement with everyone else. I'll check it again. As things might have changed since my last update.

This Wario thing is a big deal. Well for me it is, Wario is popular here in SoCal. So this is going to change that matchup if it's a guaranteed hit after the throw. Much like how Ness can currently use a throw to guarantee a kill on Zelda at about 90% (backthrow). A lightning kick that's fully charged can KO at a pretty low percent.

 

[S2]

Hey everyone, quick update today. Mostly just changes/updates to the matchup chart and such.

But here's what I want to do... the current matchup chart for Zelda has input from players of other characters. I want to see what Zelda players think about the matchup chart, what they would change, etc.

In future updates, I'll post 2 matchup charts. One being the agreed upon SWF matchup guide (what we currently have) and the other being purely what Zelda players believe currently.

The point is to see where there's disagreement and work towards making the official SWF guide and what Zelda players think on matchups be the same thing.


In order to keep this topic about general questions/answers for people learning Zelda, I've made a new topic found here

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180566


Look at the current matchups and speak up. Feel free to post in the topic I've linked to. You can post here if you want, but it'll be easier if we have everything in one place.

 

[Polish Rifle]

Awesome guide and great contributions guys. I'm a Meta Knight player that recently switched to Zelda. I truely believe that she is better than MK. Maybe it's because I get annoyed with how hard it is to KO with MK sometimes. This guide has really helped me but I have two questions that I can't find answers to on the boards:

• Does Nayru's love reflect and then increase the damage recieved?
  
• How does the spam decay work?

I realize that attacks go down in percentage and knockback but is there a different formula for every player? What period of time do you have to wait till you get your full potential of a smash back? Do all moves decay?

Thanks guys and keep up the good work.

 

[Polish Rifle]

Sorry for the double post but I found the answer to question number 2:

Attack Power Decay
This game "punishes" the repeated use of the same attack by decreasing BOTH the DAMAGE and KNOCKBACK a move does.

Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 (although it may be 10 -- best I can tell it's only 9 though) attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength.

Decay Amount
A move has a base damage and Knockback. It then counts the number of times that move is in the attack queue, and has an exponential decay that it applies to the strength. The current formula I have found seems to be pretty accurate:
damage dealt = [94.424e^(-0.0991x)] * (base damage)
where x is the # of times that move is in the attack queue.

The earlier in the queue this attack is, the less it impacts the decay, although the earliest it can be in the queue makes less than a 10% difference than if it were the last attack landed.

 

[goodkid]

I don't know if this has been said or yet, but if you use u-tilt on a moving platform, like Smashville, it doubles the range on the ending animation of the move.

 

[S2]

That's actually is not common knowledge. So it's good you brought it up.

I'll add that tidbit in on the next update to the guide.

 

[SoliceTK]

Yo, AWESOME guide, loved it can't wait till more vids show up.

 

[PsychoKnight]

this is definitly a good guide, offering a lot more than the regular knowledge of Zelda, it was a good read and I look forward to using it in my matches to come

 

[bix]

Matchup: ROB

Zelda owns ROB:

Zelda owns ROB for many reasons. Due to zelda's instant reflect, ROB's gyro and laser are useless. ROB has incredible recovery... but is NOT ABLE TO DODGE OUT OF HIS UP-B unless he performs an attack first. This usually makes for one or two free hits with D'fire. ROB's downair is useless anywhere ON the stage, so when being pressured from anything other than short hop Fairs, push forward to get under him and Usmash or Utilt(being weary of him dodgeing through you into a Dsmash). If you start a Usmash early enough u can start a downsmash in time to prevent his(or roll away).

obixo

 

[Traumatisch]

Appreciated

Hey guys, I'm new to these forums, so I'll just quickly introduce myself. Nick is Traumatisch, I'm 21 years old and am from the Netherlands. I've been playing Brawl for about a month now (pretty intensely too) albeit mostly offline (Internet is screwed where I live and getting a new conn. is proving to take longer than expected). I'm reading and watching a lot of stuff about Brawl because I want to get pretty good at it, maybe even to a level where I can compete in tournaments (tournaments are pretty scarce here so it's sure to bring out the elite).

First of all, thanks for the guide, it is much appreciated. It's given me some good insights into how Zelda plays and given me some new things to think about .

Secondly, I would like to make a couple of small suggestions. I've found Zelda to perform particularly well when playing underneath opponents. Her USmash and her UTilt are two of her most powerful attacks and they out-prioritize a lot of moves that opponents use coming from above. At higher percentages, you gain another option in the form of your UAir. Zelda also has a couple of attacks (mainly her FTilt and D- and Uthrows and at higher percentages her DTilt as well) that pop enemies into the air right over her head which can be followed by said attacks. I feel that this is the closest that Zelda will ever come to effectively combo opponents, simply because she is more the sort of character that deals out single hits that pack a lot of punch instead of having fast moves for comboing. Of course, with most Brawl characters being the mobile sob's they are, a lot of this boils down to timing and reading your opponent's moves. Still, this is where I think Zelda is at her deadliest.

Third, I second S2's opinion that, ideally, there should be no such thing as a Sheik pro or a Zelda pro. Imho, the two should not be thought of as separate. In my fights I always try to use both fighters for 2 reasons. 1) I like both their fighting styles 2) being able to control 2 styles in 1 match is a HUGE advantage that a lot of players seem to overlook for some reason. Imho there are several reasons why Zelda's transform move comes in handy.

1) Transforming between Zelda and Sheik nullifies any Stale Move Negation that might be going on. After ****** an opponent with Dins and leading him to his death, simply use the time it takes for him to get back on the stage (especially true for star KO's) and transform into Sheik (and back into Zelda if you have the time and are on a hot streak ) and any decay your moves might've had will be reset to 0.

2) The huge difference in fighting styles is a good way to get your opponent off his game. Every player tries to discover patterns in enemy movement and act accordingly. This becomes much harder to do when your opponent is suddenly a completely different character. Being able to play well with both Sheik AND Zelda can be a huge advantage in the mind games going on during a battle.

3) Being able to alter your fighting style gives you a whole new option when you need to adapt. Fight going poorly? Just can't seem to get your favourite moves in? Just transform and try again. Use new tactics and see if they work. If they don't, you can always change back.

4) A slightly more trivial use for the transform move, but I've read in a number of texts that it is possible to use the temporary invincibility during transformation to avoid certain Final Smashes. I haven't tried it myself, and of course it is a hard move to pull off, but it could save you some stock in the long run.

Of course, it's easier said than done, becoming proficient with two characters instead of one, but if you are able to become equally proficient with both Zelda and Sheik, imho, the result will be well worth the time and trouble.

Since I don't have any internet I train myself by playing CPU lv. 9 matches with 6 - 10 stock and no items. Depending on the number of stock I will transform after each 2nd or 3rd knock-out. That way I feel I get the most out of both Sheik AND Zelda AND the advantages their transformation brings. I understand that human players are completely different than CPU, but then again, the CPU can't get annoyed/confused/frustrated simply because you can change your entire style of play with a single move.

Think about it .

 

[Mike B]

Awesome post, Traumatisch. And welcome!





The stale-negation's my favorite part with Zelda... Anybody tried T-ig to Shiek after KOs then transforming off the edge to warpgrab?

 

[Zolga Owns]

Nice guide this will really help my Zelda improve. Thank you for writing this. :D

 

[RoyalBlood]

Hey I have a question :o
How do i get the full body attack when recovering from en edge, i always get killed because i get the one where Zelda uses her hand to attack not her awesome spin kick

 

[Airgemini]

Hey I have a question :o
How do i get the full body attack when recovering from en edge, i always get killed because i get the one where Zelda uses her hand to attack not her awesome spin kick

If Zelda's percentage is below 100% she'll perform the whole body ledge attack. If its above she'll do the hand one.

 

[RoyalBlood]

If Zelda's percentage is below 100% she'll perform the whole body ledge attack. If its above she'll do the hand one.

Oh Okay ^^ Yay thank you, i've been wondering about this for a while, now my question is answered :D

But it doesn't make sense XD I mean, if her percentage is going up, she should get her guard up, thus using the full body attack XD

 

[PKNintendo]

Bad Matchups:

G&W
Lucas
Marth
Ness


Can you explain Ness and Marths please? (The creator or Original Poster)

 

[pktboy]

*Yay for post #1*

To OP, such a fantastic guide. I've grabbed heaps from it.

So I already thought I was a SSB nub, which I am, but that certainly doesn't impair my love and passion for the game. Reading for just under an hour on here I've come across all these terms like sweetspots and what not, when I use Zelda I just spam the.. I think you call it U-smash :D I love how it kinda slow motions them when they're hit, and watching their percent increment slowly.. kinda satisfying.

One thing I love doing, is if my opponent is recovering (term used for trying to get back on stage)? I just spam Din's Fire at them. Cuz of the rather large range of the explosion, I don't find it difficult it all to hit them successively and just keep hitting them back and back.

My strategy isn't really much of a strategy, and apparently being predictable is a bad thing :D (I haven't played online yet; too scared) But I've killed countless opponents by Din's Fire spamming them away from the stage.

It's most effective when its just me and another, I find I can almost guarantee that once they're off, I can keep them off (of course I haven't played with too many skilled players)

*^.^*

 

[S2]

Bad Matchups:

G&W
Lucas
Marth
Ness


Can you explain Ness and Marths please? (The creator or Original Poster)

I'll give you a quick synopsis on both. And by quick, I mean a long post.

NESS:

**NOTE**Evidently this matchup is neutral now. To be honest, it's being debated. Some players feel it's neutral, others still think Zelda's got a disadvantage. It might come down to experience (for example, G&W is a bad matchup but I personally feel pretty confident fighting them). I dunno, but I got to SoCal tournaments and there are some excellent dedicated Ness players. Scrub Ness' might not pose a threat, but a very good Ness is going to abuse his advantages to their fullest **/end NOTE**

He can bypass your hitboxes with his aerials. Zelda is vulnerable to any attack where the hitbox comes off the opponent's body. The reason for this is because Zelda's f-smash and up-smash, her two highest priority and biggest hitboxes, are both off of her body.

Ness' f-air is problematic for the same reason G&W's b-air is, his hitbox travels through yours and hits you, you dont' hit him because his attack technically isn't him. This probably works with Ness' running A as well. The point is Ness can come in at specific aerial angles that pierce your hitboxes and are relatively save.

You also run into the problem that you can't force an approach because he can absorb din's. What your left with his Zelda's mediocre approach game and a compromised defense.

But here's what really makes the match bad. He can kill you guranteed at 100% with a backthrow on most stages. Provided that his backthrow is fresh. He can actually do it as low as about 80%, if he catches you with it towards the side of a stage where the ceiling/walls are close. Don't forget that it throws you at nearly a 45 degree angle, making it hard to impossible DI safely depending on percents. Remember the IC mantra, "Don't get grabbed"? Well don't get grabbed. Well once you hit a certain percent, grab=death. And not getting grabbed has always been harder than it looks.

A really good Ness player is going to be very hard for Zelda, but really, you shouldn't be playing as Zelda... you should be playing as Sheik.

While he still outprioritizes much of Sheik's arsenal, Sheik has a huge trump card. Ness is the easiest (or close to easiest) character to juggle with f-tilt. He can pound on you, but once you get a good f-tilt you can basically combo him to high percent and then upsmash him. If that doesn't kill him, Sheik has potential to gimp Ness' recovery and you can always switch to Zelda when he hits higher percents. Ness can kill both Zelda and Sheik with his backthrow at low killing percents... well a knockback refreshed Zelda can kill him at about the same percents. Ness might be able to compromise some of Zelda's game, but he can't avoid everything. Knockback refreshed Zelda can make killing him as easy as him making 1 mistake.


MARTH

Mostly due to his tipper and that fact that his sword's hitbox doesn't count as part of his body.

His f-smash matches yours and it can kill at low percents. Your range game is a little compromised.

A good Marth can wear down your shield very easily, which they'll do. Since it hurts your defense heavily. And if your shield is below half, a lot of marths will try and mindgame and uncharged neutral-B. That's basically a free KO if you accidentely block it and it brakes your shield.

His side-B combo is also a problem. While you can block and counter it, he can use it to punish a lot of your moves at a surprising range.

Not to mention, he's a good character for edgeguarding Zelda. If you Farore's too far away, he can either sit on the stage waiting to f-smash at tipper range or try to edgehog you when you appear. If you Farore's too close while recovering, he can easily jump out and hit you with an f-air, which can lead to a gimp or edgehog.

Basically it comes down to his range on the ground and his air priority. He's rewarded for hitting you at maximum distance, which hurts your ground game a ton since his range/priority is near yours. You can't compete with his aerials most of the time and he can wear down your shield with sword dances and the f-air into f-air (into f-smash if you didn't block it) combo.

And if he's very close to you and block one of your attacks, he can up-B out of his shield to punish you. Dolphin slash has high killing power if you get hit that close.

I wouldn't say its Zelda's hardest matchup, but its certainly not in your favor.

Sheik has a bad matchup against him too, but its probably your best bet to use Sheik for damage and then swap to Zelda at killing percents. While Sheik gets outprioritized and outranged, she has speed on her side. And needles. You can try to survive via punishing his mistakes and needles spamming him into approaching you. Punishing and playing keepaway often works. Not to mention, while risky... Sheik can gimp Marth during recovery. So you have that option open now as well.

I'd say your best bet is to be Sheik, abuse needles and punish when you can. Be careful of f-tilt combos (he can up-b out of them, although if your mindgames are strong you can start a tilt combo and then block, hoping he'll up-B so you can punish him). Try to gimp Marth while he recovers if you can. If he hits killing percents, swap to Zelda when its safe and nail him with one good killing move. If your positive something he's going to die, transform back to Sheik as he's dying. You can time it so that your basically unpunishable for the transform.


I know it sounds lame to some players to encourage using Sheik and only using Zelda for kills, but that's one of Zelda's biggest advantages. Remember, Zelda/Sheik are the same character. They are vastly stronger if you picking which one you use based on your matchups. There are some matchups where Zelda should only be used for getting the kill, there are other matchups where you'll want to stick as Zelda most of the match. Some matchups are really up to the player's discretion.

Keep in mind that if your looking at the matchup chart, Sheik can fair pretty well against a lot of characters she has bad matchups against, provided you play smart with her. Remember that the matchup chart is based on Zelda/Sheik as seperate entities. In a real match that isn't the case. Some of those bad matchups aren't really bad when your using both. Together Zelda/Sheik have very few bad matchups. Transform's knockback refreshment goes a long way towards making "bad" matchups neutral.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sweet. Thanks for the info.

 

[goodkid]

Using Zelda/Sheik combination will probably give better results, but Zelda & Sheik separate is still viable. I'm still using Zelda only, but using Sheik also may give an advantage because of the different playstyle, maybe I will consider using both Sheik & Zelda in the future, but its Zelda only for me.

 

[Brinzy]

S2, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723

The points you made are valid, but I argued that Ness vs. Zelda is even with other Zelda mains (I'm actually a Ness main and Zelda secondary).

The points you make are valid. However:

-Zelda's Usmash goes past pretty much all of Ness's non-disjointed hitboxes. The only thing that can hit Zelda is fair or a yo-yo. The yo-yo will not hurt you much, and you might just dodge the stronger hit and take a mere 4%. The fair might hit you, but only in the later hitboxes for 5-6% - if he tries to hit you with the whole thing, he'll get Usmash'd.

- Ness has bad range. Period. This isn't too problematic for him as he has a lot of disjointed hitboxes and he's a relatively small character, but his range is still rather crappy. His best ranged attacks (fair and yo-yos) are not that powerful. They're mainly used for comboing, so if you get hit by a fair, just get away from him and he can't really follow up without doing something risky (like PK Thunder).

- Zelda > PK Fire. Most Zeldas immediately think about reflecting the small, thunderbolt-shaped thing back at Ness. That's not the reason why she's better than it. The thing is, after it hits her two or three times, you can Nayru's Love it. If you're quick about it, you can throw up a shield before the Ness approaches you from the air after his laggy PK Fire (since he will NOT be able to hit you from the sides). What happens here is the pillar reflects back upon him. The most dangerous thing he can do is use his bat to reflect the fire back at you again (but the bat will never hit you). Ness uses PK Fire to set up a lot of things - throws, yo-yos, bats, aerials, you name it. By reflecting PK Fire, you're denying him access to this via PK Fire. This has always been the case for me when my Ness faces a Zelda, unless she's unlucky and can't reflect over WiFi... which means nothing face to face.

- His Bthrow is strong... but so is yours. In fact, Zelda's kills about 10% later than Ness's does, but I'll have to test for better accuracy... which I'll do right now.

- Dtilt > Ness. Outranges everything but his yo-yo, completely outspeeds everything but his dtilt and jab (which are outranged), and as you've probably noticed, smaller characters have a harder time with it than larger ones do. Leads into another dtilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, ftilt, utilt, or Usmash... or in other words, any of Zelda's ground attacks. Trips for a tech-chase.

- Got a Ness throwing PK Thunder at you? Throw out a Din's and do more damage.

- Got a Ness trying to spike you? Uair.

- Got a Ness trying to hit you with any other aerial? Kick. I thought I was failing against Zelda's dair at first, but I tested it and it's true - Zelda's dair > Ness's uair, even without a sweetspot. Go try it yourself. I've been hit by this so many times that I'm forced to just use a quick PK Flash instead because of the annoying as hell hitbox. Which reminds me...

- Ness is using PK Flash? Sometimes you can trick him into detonating it by himself for a reflecting kill, but the main thing to do here is approach. DO NOT DIN'S. By the time you see it coming and you analyze the situation, Din's will trade hits with it... and trading hits with anything vs. PK Flash is always a scam on your end.

- PSI Magnet does *not* shut down Din's. Yeah, some people will cancel the lag from it by shielding, but there is nothing they can do about the start-up time. Use it at close range. Detonate it before Ness when edgeguarding to get him to air-dodge or PSI Magnet when it's not necessary so you can mess up his already stoppable recovery. Approach with it. Ness players believe that you can shut down Din's approach with PSI Magnet. Anyone who believes this is a fool. Even if they predict it and absorb, you can just follow up with a smash attack (since he probably approached you from the air), or if he comes from the ground, grab him. I am a firm believer that PSI Magnet is Ness's most overrated ability in this match-up.

- If Ness is edgeguarding you with anything "PK", warp past it. Chances are, you can warp into him. Just be careful with a fully charged PK Flash, because he can detonate it before you reappear and still hit you because the hitbox lasts a deceptively long time. Also, Ness players like to throw out PK Thunder to get you to dodge it... so they can curve it back when you're on-stage and hit you with PK Thunder 2. Solution? Warp into Ness.

- Overall, you have more killing power than Ness does.


Zelda is not at a disadvantage.

 

[ShadowCosmos]

Also on the note with marth vs zelda, I know that most marth's don't like to use the counter move (down b) because it has a lot of punishable potential, but that thing comes out fast and is countering in the early frames of the move (unlike Ike's) and if he counters your sweetspotted kick, it does around 21%.

I play against a pretty decent marth and he likes to pull that counter out, and since you have to get the timing right for the sweetspot, it makes it harder to actually get it off. Just thought I might bring that up. And it sucks that he out prioritizes Zelda lol.

I'm still working on effective counters to marth. It's hard since all his aerial attacks are disjointed...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

attn:

this thread is severly outdated.... while the first post is fantastically in depth.... some of it is no longer applicable... and the matchup section is hardly useful.

 

[ShadowCosmos]

Where can you find more posts that are more up-to-date on these things, and like match-ups? Just lurk around the boards?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Where can you find more posts that are more up-to-date on these things, and like match-ups? Just lurk around the boards?

ugggg... hard to say....
While royal blood himself doesn't seem to be the most saavy about the matchups, so I'd take HIS sumaries with a grain of salt... the posters he has in his thread seem very knowledgeable... it's DEFINITELY the best Zelda matchup thread ATM... probably because it's the only one that's even decent *facepalm* albeit an incomplete one, by the time the discussion of a character is finished, the overall rating seems fairly close to correct.

 

[ShadowCosmos]

K sounds good. Thanks.

 

[Brinzy]

I don't think this deserves its own thread (probably not), but Zelda is really a blessed character in one aspect:

She has the fewest grab-release issues in the game.

No kidding. Falco cannot chaingrab her (as in, if you do something after he uses a d-throw, you can hit him before he can do anything to you, notably fair him for an EASY lightning kick... that is, if he tried to follow you for another grab or whatever). DDD cannot chaingrab her. Bowser can only ftilt her after a grab-release. Be thankful because, other than DK, he has something on every other character, yet the only thing he has on Zelda is ftilt. (DK also gets wrecked DDD because of an infinite.) Check each of those boards for more information. ICs have their own chaingrab abilities on everyone, I believe, but this doesn't specifically hurt Zelda.

I'll have to look up other characters, but I'm pretty sure that Zelda has the least problems overall with grab-release issues. If you happen to use a character that has grab-release issues (like me and Ness -_-), counterpicking Zelda for hoping for dealing with the grabs is pretty much ALWAYS a good idea.

 

[MRTW113]

Nice guide. For Ike, at medium high percent a d-smash can put him downwards diagonally from the stage, spelling doom for him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think this deserves its own thread

if you want people to look at it it does.

 

[Y.b.M.]

it is so true about Zelda being an easy win for GW....i played in a team tournament with a wack partner....going against 2 GW's....Yes we lost....but Since I'm better we Shiek than I am with Zelda I made winning look very possible...until my opponent just kept spamming his Crazy Strong dsmash.....No Johns though a Win is a Win....Guess I'll know next time....

 

[infernovia]

I don't understand why DK is considered a neutral matchup.

Din's fire is worthless in that matchup considering he can approach through both air and ground (dash attack and neutral air clanks with the projectile).

I personally think DK beats Zelda in all other regards if you can DI out of her smashes.

 

[PKNintendo]

S2, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723

The points you made are valid, but I argued that Ness vs. Zelda is even with other Zelda mains (I'm actually a Ness main and Zelda secondary).

The points you make are valid. However:

-Zelda's Usmash goes past pretty much all of Ness's non-disjointed hitboxes. The only thing that can hit Zelda is fair or a yo-yo. The yo-yo will not hurt you much, and you might just dodge the stronger hit and take a mere 4%. The fair might hit you, but only in the later hitboxes for 5-6% - if he tries to hit you with the whole thing, he'll get Usmash'd.

- Ness has bad range. Period. This isn't too problematic for him as he has a lot of disjointed hitboxes and he's a relatively small character, but his range is still rather crappy. His best ranged attacks (fair and yo-yos) are not that powerful. They're mainly used for comboing, so if you get hit by a fair, just get away from him and he can't really follow up without doing something risky (like PK Thunder).

- Zelda > PK Fire. Most Zeldas immediately think about reflecting the small, thunderbolt-shaped thing back at Ness. That's not the reason why she's better than it. The thing is, after it hits her two or three times, you can Nayru's Love it. If you're quick about it, you can throw up a shield before the Ness approaches you from the air after his laggy PK Fire (since he will NOT be able to hit you from the sides). What happens here is the pillar reflects back upon him. The most dangerous thing he can do is use his bat to reflect the fire back at you again (but the bat will never hit you). Ness uses PK Fire to set up a lot of things - throws, yo-yos, bats, aerials, you name it. By reflecting PK Fire, you're denying him access to this via PK Fire. This has always been the case for me when my Ness faces a Zelda, unless she's unlucky and can't reflect over WiFi... which means nothing face to face.

- His Bthrow is strong... but so is yours. In fact, Zelda's kills about 10% later than Ness's does, but I'll have to test for better accuracy... which I'll do right now.

- Dtilt > Ness. Outranges everything but his yo-yo, completely outspeeds everything but his dtilt and jab (which are outranged), and as you've probably noticed, smaller characters have a harder time with it than larger ones do. Leads into another dtilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, ftilt, utilt, or Usmash... or in other words, any of Zelda's ground attacks. Trips for a tech-chase.

- Got a Ness throwing PK Thunder at you? Throw out a Din's and do more damage.

- Got a Ness trying to spike you? Uair.

- Got a Ness trying to hit you with any other aerial? Kick. I thought I was failing against Zelda's dair at first, but I tested it and it's true - Zelda's dair > Ness's uair, even without a sweetspot. Go try it yourself. I've been hit by this so many times that I'm forced to just use a quick PK Flash instead because of the annoying as hell hitbox. Which reminds me...

- Ness is using PK Flash? Sometimes you can trick him into detonating it by himself for a reflecting kill, but the main thing to do here is approach. DO NOT DIN'S. By the time you see it coming and you analyze the situation, Din's will trade hits with it... and trading hits with anything vs. PK Flash is always a scam on your end.

- PSI Magnet does *not* shut down Din's. Yeah, some people will cancel the lag from it by shielding, but there is nothing they can do about the start-up time. Use it at close range. Detonate it before Ness when edgeguarding to get him to air-dodge or PSI Magnet when it's not necessary so you can mess up his already stoppable recovery. Approach with it. Ness players believe that you can shut down Din's approach with PSI Magnet. Anyone who believes this is a fool. Even if they predict it and absorb, you can just follow up with a smash attack (since he probably approached you from the air), or if he comes from the ground, grab him. I am a firm believer that PSI Magnet is Ness's most overrated ability in this match-up.

- If Ness is edgeguarding you with anything "PK", warp past it. Chances are, you can warp into him. Just be careful with a fully charged PK Flash, because he can detonate it before you reappear and still hit you because the hitbox lasts a deceptively long time. Also, Ness players like to throw out PK Thunder to get you to dodge it... so they can curve it back when you're on-stage and hit you with PK Thunder 2. Solution? Warp into Ness.

- Overall, you have more killing power than Ness does.


Zelda is not at a disadvantage.

Agree wit hall points. Except Zelda`s back throw is much weaker than Ness. 30-40% weaker. And usually requires the edge to kill with.

 

[Brinzy]

^ That it does, I suppose. I was supposed to test that but I never did.

Also, month old post, but,

I don't understand why DK is considered a neutral matchup.

Din's fire is worthless in that matchup considering he can approach through both air and ground (dash attack and neutral air clanks with the projectile).

I personally think DK beats Zelda in all other regards if you can DI out of her smashes.

Din's Fire is worthless in general. That doesn't give DK an advantage.

If DK is approaching, he's eliminating one of Zelda's huge weaknesses. (Approach.) He can't easily DI out of her Fsmash, and he can't DI her Usmash unless she just completely screwed up, I guess. He's a large target for lightning kicks, she can string attacks on him at 0% that can easily put him at 40% (which is basically hurting DK's weight advantage a bit) and she's strong. Neutral is pretty good, consdering his power, range, speed, and Zelda's lightness.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

^ That it does, I suppose. I was supposed to test that but I never did.

Also, month old post, but,



Din's Fire is worthless in general. That doesn't give DK an advantage.

If DK is approaching, he's eliminating one of Zelda's huge weaknesses. (Approach.) He can't easily DI out of her Fsmash, and he can't DI her Usmash unless she just completely screwed up, I guess. He's a large target for lightning kicks, she can string attacks on him at 0% that can easily put him at 40% (which is basically hurting DK's weight advantage a bit) and she's strong. Neutral is pretty good, consdering his power, range, speed, and Zelda's lightness.

If zelda powersheilds or spotdodges pretty much anything of DK's, she gets an absolutely free lightning kick.

Also, he's QUITE susceptable to Dair spikes

 

[-Mars-]

What is this the matchup thread?