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Canada [Jul 26, 2014] B.C. Brawl Monthlies - Back in business, now featuring Smash 64! (Burnaby, BC)

Arcansi

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,545
Location
BC(Vancouver Island) Canada
Okay, fair enough.

But if that's the case, why isn't he banned yet?
Because we aren't allowed to seriously discuss his banning as a community.

We just aren't.

Also, just because people are born with disadvantages does not mean characters should be.

I mean, there's a reason this isn't a realistic life fighting simulator, and there's a reason we try to make it up to skill and not 'my char is better then yours'.
 

lilseph

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
971
Because he doesn't completely break the game so that he is 60-40+ every MU. There are characters that can go even with him and even beat him on certain stages. IMO there just have to be certain rules set in place to keep MK under control or else **** like flying under smashville and planking will happen.
 

Crisis

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
583
Location
Vancouver, Canada
I think this was heavily discussed before and we probably aren't allowed to discuss it because they think they've covered all possible grounds in this argument. Their verdict being, mk shouldn't be banned.
I personally don't think he should be banned. A lot of characters can give mk a lot of trouble. Like lil seph said above, if we keep planking and stalling in check, I don't think his ability is way above the rest of the cast.
Characters like falco, olimar, snake, diddy can all give him a run for his money.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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And Pikachu, Fox too. Maybe Wolf. The thing is, these are only even matchups at best. How can we come up with a rule to keep all sorts of stalling in check when it gets hard to distinguish and/or prove? With all these surgical rules, I think it would be better to just remove him from the metagame for a while.
 

Arcansi

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,545
Location
BC(Vancouver Island) Canada
Because he doesn't completely break the game so that he is 60-40+ every MU. There are characters that can go even with him and even beat him on certain stages. IMO there just have to be certain rules set in place to keep MK under control or else **** like flying under smashville and planking will happen.
On certain stages...

What about MK on his stage? Is it fair for him to basically get a free win even through the ban?

EDIT: Also, meta really holds down the metagame of lower tier characters. The fact that your going to have to fight through meta over and over as like a lucas or something, isn't easy or fun or really expected to deal with.

You just lose.
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
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Alacion
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Who are you lilseph? o.o

Okay, maybe the word "should" wasn't the best choice, but I think you guys get the idea.

Is there any multi-player game that has total balance among the playable characters? Making things balanced means that everybody's going to be exactly the same. While imbalance may be bad for competitive play (eg. losing to MK all day), it's also the game's most redeeming feature because it's the variety that makes this game interesting. Besides, I lose too much for a loss to MK to affect me. ;) If anything, those annoying Banana Peels need to go...

We aren't allowed to talk about banning a character? I know I'm new to all this business so I don't really have a clue on the rationale behind this. (Ignore the 2009 thing)

And just to end this post on a positive (?) note, I'll just post this video...

[COLLAPSE="Lol"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OxWD85Ngz4[/COLLAPSE]
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
Joined
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Messages
10,188
Location
B.C. Canada
It would just be nice if there was one thing that you could use to legitimately counter MK. As far as I know, other fighting games either have a character who has something going against them, or they decide to ban.

Yeah, bananas are annoying :awesome:

I think we're not allowed to discuss the banning of MK because it always ends with flaming and stuff and the BBR thought it was worthless because it had been discussed already.
 

lilseph

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
971
On certain stages...

What about MK on his stage? Is it fair for him to basically get a free win even through the ban?

EDIT: Also, meta really holds down the metagame of lower tier characters. The fact that your going to have to fight through meta over and over as like a lucas or something, isn't easy or fun or really expected to deal with.

You just lose.
MK has no free win stage IIRC. Rainbow is really gay but people can beat such as Wario. That's the point of counter picking stages, you counter pick them to have a distinct advantage for your character IE ice climbers on FD.

Also i could the same about DDD and Marth destroying the lower tiers. Have you looked at their numbers? Look oddly familiar to MK's numbers or better.
 

Arcansi

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
2,545
Location
BC(Vancouver Island) Canada
MK has no free win stage IIRC. Rainbow is really gay but people can beat such as Wario. That's the point of counter picking stages, you counter pick them to have a distinct advantage for your character IE ice climbers on FD.
Except MK on rainbow literally has the biggest advantage of anyone over pretty much every character, if not every character.


Also i could the same about DDD and Marth destroying the lower tiers. Have you looked at their numbers? Look oddly familiar to MK's numbers or better.
Gonna look right now, will edit or reply when done.

EDIT: Overall, MK totals -27 DDD Totals -24 and Marth totals -23.

Making MK easily over 10% better then these characters overall vs low tiers, and then you have to consider his usage amount compared to DDD or Marth, and the fact that as you get higher in the bracket you can't expect less skilled MK's to be killed off by higher tiers as well as less skilled DDD/Marths....

[COLLAPSE="Data"]Low Tiers

Lucas

MK: -2

DDD: -2

M: -3

Mario

MK -2

DDD -3

M -3

Bowser

MK: -3

DDD: -4

M: -2

Samus

MK: -3

DDD: -3

M: -2

Captian Falcon

MK: -3

DDD: -2

M: -2


Jigglypuff

MK: -3

DDD: -3

M: -3

Link

MK: -3

DDD: -3

M: -2

Zelda

MK: -4

DDD: -1

M: -3

Ganondorf

MK: -4

DDD: -3

M -3


MK -2 -2 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -4 -4 = -27

DDD: -2 -3 -4 -3 -2 -3 -3 -1 -3 = -24

M: -3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -3 -2 -3 -3 = -23[/COLLAPSE]
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,423
Location
BC
Diddy Kong obviously beats MK due to single nanner locks, and Pikachu obviously beats him due to Quick attack lock.

Discuss.
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Messages
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Diddy Kong obviously beats everyone due to single nanner locks, and everyone obviously beats Diddy Kong due to single nanner locks.

Discuss.

When you guys were talking about how many MK/Pika players we have in BC, it got me thinking... guess which two characters I'm learning the SNL timing for first?

EDIT: also, doesn't pika have a cg on MK? The matchup is certainly one of MK's worst.
 

~Firefly~

Smash Hero
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Apr 4, 2009
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5,193
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Going all-in with the grime
Genesis 2 seems to have sparked a bit more from pro-ban because of a bunch of cases of MKs winning sets against non-MKs because they simply choose to run away. You can say "just limit his planking/scrooging abilities" but there is no magical rule that does so effectively. Everything is either subjective (i.e. anti-scrooging rules; he flew under the stage recovering to gain better stage positioning, do we DQ him for that? Where do we draw the line?), or isn't actually effective (MKs have timed people out with far less than 35 ledge grabs). Then there's the fact that the LGL actually nerfs characters the use the ledge a lot in a completely beatable fashion (that's where my bias comes in; Yoshi gets ***** by this in timeout situations). Yes, we can limit the LGL to MK only, which was sort of included in Unity, but then it becomes a question of whether or not it's OK to bend over backwards like this, making special surgical rules just to keep MK in check.

That's how I'd summarize the situation right now. Take of it what you will. I'm on the fence myself, though that probably came off as more pro-ban.

PS - lilseph is a (now inactive) AB player. =]

Edit: I wouldn't say "certainly" at Pika being that difficult for MK. IDK if he was just having an off day or something, but 3SAM did better against M2K with his ICs than with his Pikachu when they played on the stream. :x

:005:
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,423
Location
BC
if they included decimals in the bbr matchup chart I'd say pikachu is like -.5, my opinion.
 

Blue Yoshi

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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I'm here now (got back Sunday, had just enough time to post and go to work, then went straight to sleep, and woke up today and went straight to work).

Unless I change my mind, I am sticking to what I said. I have had enough of trying my hardest against Meta Knight (not to sound... whatever that word is... but sometimes against people I think I am much better than), and they win without even breaking a sweat. I am heavy pro-ban, have been pro-ban ever since like 5 months since the game came out (save for a month where I was indifferent).

My main logic behind doing this is that I do not play to win, I play the game to have fun (which has probably been VERY obvious with how I've played in nearly every tournament). However, playing against Meta Knight is not fun at all, and makes me not want to play the game anymore, causing me to play terribly in my other matches. I am all for a Meta Knight ban in BC. Jake did bring up a good point about the other competitive players getting destroyed by Meta Knights if we ban him in BC, but I am still in favour of a ban. People can money match or something (or agree to allow Meta Knight in their set). But I have had enough of him, and will forfeit/spam Falcon Punch or GaW side-B, or something stupid like that.

As far as people saying they hate Diddy's Bananas, I love playing against Diddy because his bananas are useless against me. I can catch them in the air 80% of the time (as with any item, though I just recently learned that you cannot catch ROB's Gyro when he down-B shoots it, which gave me unnecessary damage (that means I'm ready for you Brian (Brackets in brackets in brackets just to annoy SKidd))). Anyways, yeah. On the flip side, the very few times I go online, I can't catch items, and I see exactly why people hate Diddy's bananas lol.



Anyways, yes, it is true that talking about Meta Knight's legality is technically banned. The main reason for this is because it becomes a flame war. However, I know BC's players well enough (and we all know each other and are all friends... except for that Aleate guy... such a cruel person :p), and I highly doubt we will turn this into a flame war. Plus, this is discussing his legality in only BC. So... as basically the only mod that regularly watches this thread, I will hopefully not shoot myself in the foot and say that I will allow people to talk about his legality (try to stick to MSN or other forms of communication if possible, but otherwise, like say we were all voting, you can make a vote here), but ONLY AS FAR AS BEING LEGAL IN THE BC COMMUNITY (i.e. this is not a full brawl community discussion, only a BC community discussion). That said, no flaming, no anything like that. If you want to discuss it, keep the discussion... whatever that word is. Remember, I am a mod, and I can and will infract you if necessary. And remember, we are only discussing his legality in BC.



That said, what are people's thoughts on a Meta Knight banned and Meta Knight legal events (i.e. both in a tournament)? That way, people who do not wish to play against Meta Knight what-so-ever have the chance to do that, while people who are indifferent or who play Meta Knight can do so as well. With recent attendance counts, we have more than enough time to do both events as well as other side events.
 

SKidd

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Messages
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B.C.
Whoa, is Rob actually serious about something?




Meta Knight is too good. He ***** low tiers, or at least Mario, more so than any other character. It's so unfair :(
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
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I'm here now (got back Sunday, had just enough time to post and go to work, then went straight to sleep, and woke up today and went straight to work).

Okay, I wanted to see if you made it back in one piece and I'm assuming you have which is good.

Unless I change my mind, I am sticking to what I said. I have had enough of trying my hardest against Meta Knight (not to sound... whatever that word is... but sometimes against people I think I am much better than), and they win without even breaking a sweat. I am heavy pro-ban, have been pro-ban ever since like 5 months since the game came out (save for a month where I was indifferent).

I think the word is conceited.

My main logic behind doing this is that I do not play to win, I play the game to have fun (which has probably been VERY obvious with how I've played in nearly every tournament). However, playing against Meta Knight is not fun at all, and makes me not want to play the game anymore, causing me to play terribly in my other matches. I am all for a Meta Knight ban in BC. Jake did bring up a good point about the other competitive players getting destroyed by Meta Knights if we ban him in BC, but I am still in favour of a ban. People can money match or something (or agree to allow Meta Knight in their set). But I have had enough of him, and will forfeit/spam Falcon Punch or GaW side-B, or something stupid like that.


As far as people saying they hate Diddy's Bananas, I love playing against Diddy because his bananas are useless against me. I can catch them in the air 80% of the time (as with any item, though I just recently learned that you cannot catch ROB's Gyro when he down-B shoots it, which gave me unnecessary damage (that means I'm ready for you Brian (Brackets in brackets in brackets just to annoy SKidd))). Anyways, yeah. On the flip side, the very few times I go online, I can't catch items, and I see exactly why people hate Diddy's bananas lol.

I'm the only person who said I disliked those Banana Peels :<. But yeah, it's annoying but it's not really a game changer for me.

Anyways, yes, it is true that talking about Meta Knight's legality is technically banned. The main reason for this is because it becomes a flame war. However, I know BC's players well enough (and we all know each other and are all friends... except for that Aleate guy... such a cruel person :p), and I highly doubt we will turn this into a flame war. Plus, this is discussing his legality in only BC. So... as basically the only mod that regularly watches this thread, I will hopefully not shoot myself in the foot and say that I will allow people to talk about his legality (try to stick to MSN or other forms of communication if possible, but otherwise, like say we were all voting, you can make a vote here), but ONLY AS FAR AS BEING LEGAL IN THE BC COMMUNITY (i.e. this is not a full brawl community discussion, only a BC community discussion). That said, no flaming, no anything like that. If you want to discuss it, keep the discussion... whatever that word is. Remember, I am a mod, and I can and will infract you if necessary. And remember, we are only discussing his legality in BC.

I think the word is Civil. Also, hater qq. :c

That said, what are people's thoughts on a Meta Knight banned and Meta Knight legal events (i.e. both in a tournament)? That way, people who do not wish to play against Meta Knight what-so-ever have the chance to do that, while people who are indifferent or who play Meta Knight can do so as well. With recent attendance counts, we have more than enough time to do both events as well as other side events.

I don't really care either way, and will be satisfied with either decision. Perhaps to avoid flaming and related conflict, why not create a poll on another site and see what the opinions are? Of course, would >50% be considered the threshold for banning Meta Knight?

Just a suggestion, feel free to throw it out the window.
Responses in bold.


Meta Knight is too good. He ***** low tiers, or at least Mario, more so than any other character. It's so unfair :(
Lies. MK is so much better than Zelda compared to Mario. :p
 

bundtcake

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
653
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Vancouver, BC
@ everyone seriously talking about banning MK in BC

we don't even have any MKs decent enough to consider banning him, our metagame is fairly below average compared to the rest of the competitive community

in terms of "oh noes we just can't beat him" you guys might as well be talking about banning rob :E
 

Kantrip

Kantplay
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Messages
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B.C. Canada
Rob as in r.o.b. Because you're 2 gud, or rob as in blue yoshi because 64? :troll:

I am against a community ban. I am for a universal ban.

:phone:
 

Deap

Smash Ace
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Deap92x
yo MM me. I'm better than deap ;o

also, i'm cool if MK was banned. I'll just go falco or snake lol. orrr Lucario. Skidd $5 MM Lucario vs Mario again? (((((:
no you are not, you are just gayer that me.
 

Deap

Smash Ace
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@ everyone seriously talking about banning MK in BC

we don't even have any MKs decent enough to consider banning him, our metagame is fairly below average compared to the rest of the competitive community

in terms of "oh noes we just can't beat him" you guys might as well be talking about banning rob :E
so if i want to be in the "competitive level" i have to play gay,slow and spammer?

definitely i dont wanna be part of that level.
 

SKidd

Smash Master
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No way. Besides, you're not even telling me if I'm the MK or the Mario.




Also, Deap, do you use MSN?
 

Lib3r4t3

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
949
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Penticton's finest!
Unless I change my mind, I am sticking to what I said. I have had enough of trying my hardest against Meta Knight (not to sound... whatever that word is... but sometimes against people I think I am much better than), and they win without even breaking a sweat. I am heavy pro-ban, have been pro-ban ever since like 5 months since the game came out (save for a month where I was indifferent).
August I don't think the tier list was even out. Metaknight had only recently shoved Snake off the pedestal in Ankoku's character ranking and "metaknight counters" were popping up all over the place. I believe that every single character has been viewed as a "counter" of metaknight at one time or another by one community or another.

My main logic behind doing this is that I do not play to win, I play the game to have fun (which has probably been VERY obvious with how I've played in nearly every tournament). However, playing against Meta Knight is not fun at all, and makes me not want to play the game anymore, causing me to play terribly in my other matches. I am all for a Meta Knight ban in BC. Jake did bring up a good point about the other competitive players getting destroyed by Meta Knights if we ban him in BC, but I am still in favour of a ban. People can money match or something (or agree to allow Meta Knight in their set). But I have had enough of him, and will forfeit/spam Falcon Punch or GaW side-B, or something stupid like that.
Your reasoning is much more personal for a MK ban than it is a true reason. You can instead take initiative to learn the matchup like I did when I had Falco or Marth problems in melee, instead of just ragequitting if someone goes that character. That's just avoiding the problem you have and your complaining is just going to fuel itself to more hate and stress, since you'd rather be happy in your avoidance of your elephant in the room than help the community get better and past it's problems.

Anyways, yes, it is true that talking about Meta Knight's legality is technically banned. The main reason for this is because it becomes a flame war. However, I know BC's players well enough (and we all know each other and are all friends... except for that Aleate guy... such a cruel person :p), and I highly doubt we will turn this into a flame war. Plus, this is discussing his legality in only BC. So... as basically the only mod that regularly watches this thread, I will hopefully not shoot myself in the foot and say that I will allow people to talk about his legality (try to stick to MSN or other forms of communication if possible, but otherwise, like say we were all voting, you can make a vote here), but ONLY AS FAR AS BEING LEGAL IN THE BC COMMUNITY (i.e. this is not a full brawl community discussion, only a BC community discussion). That said, no flaming, no anything like that. If you want to discuss it, keep the discussion... whatever that word is. Remember, I am a mod, and I can and will infract you if necessary. And remember, we are only discussing his legality in BC.
Real talk: The internet needs to take things less personally. This is a real discussion that the community keeps going back to and I think everyone here agrees that banning him in the community before the rest of the brawl community follows suit is a bad idea. Most places that have done that have either unbanned him or stayed far behind the metagame, so the major issue is if this community should be a pro-ban or anti-ban region, or rather discuss and educate (because from what I've seen there are some newer players who I won't name who are making some judgmental statements about the issue) eachother about the whole situation.

That said, what are people's thoughts on a Meta Knight banned and Meta Knight legal events (i.e. both in a tournament)? That way, people who do not wish to play against Meta Knight what-so-ever have the chance to do that, while people who are indifferent or who play Meta Knight can do so as well. With recent attendance counts, we have more than enough time to do both events as well as other side events.
I think that this is a terrible idea. Lots of problems with the smash community as a whole (that's 64, melee, brawl, and all the brawl mods) is how much segregation there has been from each community. How many brawl and melee tournaments has there been that feature both communities? I think there was supposed to be one, not sure if that ever happened or not. The MK banned and mk legal events call into question which is the legitimate event and which is the side event? It adds a layer of strife between those who stand strictly behind banned MK and those who stand strictly for legal MK tournaments, and that's just asking for your community to self destruct.

Btw, MK shouldn't be banned, ever, for the very least on the grounds that brawl would be losing it's single most interesting and deep character. To put it into context, it'd be like banning Fox because he doesn't have any matchups that he loses, and he can camp extremely well. A good majority of the stages in melee have been banned because of him.
 

Deap

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