Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[JaegerEC]

I'll upload some gamplay videos once I get 10 posts >_> Would love some constructive feedback on them ^__^

 

[Syelerion]

Hi, I was wondering if you guys could help a new player out with tips. So I've basically scoured the whole forum. I main Jigglypuff cause she's just so fun to play. I'm doing good trading hits with people and racking up damage, what I'm having trouble with is killing people or gimping. I can't land rests and the only times I do are when predictable enemies use a gap closer towards me and I OoS rest them. Apart from that, I can never really combo into rest or use rest without failing and getting punished(insta -1 stock). I'm also having trouble trying to land or execute Bairs, since your back gets pretty vulnerable and most of the time I just get hit first. Lastly, I've read that utilt is amazing. However, I can't hit with it. Like since the hitbox is behind Jiggly I have a hard time turning around fast enough or judging when to use it( since people obviously vector away if I hit them upwards). Thanks in advance!

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Hi, I was wondering if you guys could help a new player out with tips. So I've basically scoured the whole forum. I main Jigglypuff cause she's just so fun to play. I'm doing good trading hits with people and racking up damage, what I'm having trouble with is killing people or gimping. I can't land rests and the only times I do are when predictable enemies use a gap closer towards me and I OoS rest them. Apart from that, I can never really combo into rest or use rest without failing and getting punished(insta -1 stock). I'm also having trouble trying to land or execute Bairs, since your back gets pretty vulnerable and most of the time I just get hit first. Lastly, I've read that utilt is amazing. However, I can't hit with it. Like since the hitbox is behind Jiggly I have a hard time turning around fast enough or judging when to use it( since people obviously vector away if I hit them upwards). Thanks in advance!

Starting with gimping I've been doing Fairs, Spaced Uairs if my foe is off and above stage, and Nairs(mostly this, it lasts long, good priority vs other aerials, fast). Below stage I usually do run off ledge descending Dairs then when it launches them up I use a jump to chase or retreat back to ledge. Heavier chars are easy to WoP such as bowser(though in bowsers case shell armor might be a problem but I'm not sure if bowser has a move with SA if he's off stage, at least without SDing). Sometimes if they are hovering near ledge I do dash attack.

Rest is more punish tool than an attack in ssb4, if you ask me anywho. We can't really combo into it at least during percents where it would kill(EDIT: I think some people said something 'bout weak hitting Nair or Fair to combo into rest). so OoS, spotdodge, or literally stand there as they roll into you rest, is typically how its used. of course other jiggs not named SyncNatsyu might be more willing to be risky with rest and SH in for a hard read. or IIRC Krynxe has jumped off stage resting people.

Bairs are surprise attacks honestly. yes you can space with them but if your turned around they can tell what you're going for. Throw them in with Fairs and Nairs or empty jump in and fake a grab.

Utilt, I can't say much of. maybe someone else who's better at spacing on the ground than me can tell you more. But Utilt is great and incredibly fast way to KO someone in the hundreds. where before 100% we can kill with rest, and Bairs cover the percents between them. Though from my experience it seems more of a defensive than offensive unless you backwards SH, feint Bair, land Utilt. Or I'm just bad at it.

This is brought to you by a level 2 Jigg~

 

[JaegerEC]

Starting with gimping I've been doing Fairs, Spaced Uairs if my foe is off and above stage, and Nairs(mostly this, it lasts long, good priority vs other aerials, fast). Below stage I usually do run off ledge descending Dairs then when it launches them up I use a jump to chase or retreat back to ledge. Heavier chars are easy to WoP such as bowser(though in bowsers case shell armor might be a problem but I'm not sure if bowser has a move with SA if he's off stage, at least without SDing). Sometimes if they are hovering near ledge I do dash attack.

Rest is more punish tool than an attack in ssb4, if you ask me anywho. We can't really combo into it at least during percents where it would kill(EDIT: I think some people said something 'bout weak hitting Nair or Fair to combo into rest). so OoS, spotdodge, or literally stand there as they roll into you rest, is typically how its used. of course other jiggs not named SyncNatsyu might be more willing to be risky with rest and SH in for a hard read. or IIRC Krynxe has jumped off stage resting people.

Bairs are surprise attacks honestly. yes you can space with them but if your turned around they can tell what you're going for. Throw them in with Fairs and Nairs or empty jump in and fake a grab.

Utilt, I can't say much of. maybe someone else who's better at spacing on the ground than me can tell you more. But Utilt is great and incredibly fast way to KO someone in the hundreds. where before 100% we can kill with rest, and Bairs cover the percents between them. Though from my experience it seems more of a defensive than offensive unless you backwards SH, feint Bair, land Utilt. Or I'm just bad at it.

This is brought to you by a level 2 Jigg~

Yeah, speaking on the uses of Rest and how to finish off stocks as Jiggs, I would say she's much more defensive in that sense. Rest is rarely used as an offensive tool to take stocks unless you have a really good read on someone. Best way to use it offensively IMHO, is to use it after say, an up throw or an up air/up tilt and they've already used their jump AND you've noticed that they don't air dodge. Then you can just SH rest them as they come down. You can also punish them with rest if they like to land with Air Dodge if you notice that. You can jump off the stage and edge guard with rest but obvi would only recommend that if you're already ahead in stocks or you're in the 120%-150% range and your opponent is in kill % for rest. So it's situational, but pretty good when you know when to use it. A lot of characters have pretty linear recovery so you can definitely abuse that.

Otherwise, rest is probably best done OOS or to punish really laggy moves when your opponent is at kill %.

As far as Bairs, I find them to be a lot more effective when spaced in used more defensively, than using it as an offensive kill move. The best time to use Bair offensively is when your opponent is off the stage. If their on the stage, stick it out to space them and play footsies. Get them to run into it, or fake them out. A lot of people will just hold shield when they're at kill % for Bair and they see Jiggs back turned. You can take advantage by SH fast falling to a grab, or throwing out Nairs and Fairs to just catch their mistake (rolling, jumping with a poorly spaced air move). Remember that Nair has great kill potential as well and at high percent, it will push them off stage, opening up a lot of kill options for Jiggs.

Another pretty good decent situational kill option for Jiggs is at around 135%-150%, if you connect with pound while your opponent is around full-hop/double jump height, you can kill them. Punishable if it wiffs, but not a bad option.

 

[larky]

While I'm a noob, I've been having success playing around the edge. Maybe just cause my opponents are worse due to my lower elo (if they count that in for glory opponent matching?) but a lot of the times people over extend over the edge trying to catch you and you can nair spike them into the stage. Most characters have some sort of start up on their recovery, so if they commit to it too early or below the stage I usually try gimp them. Maybe you should try that out if you're having trouble securing the stock. You should also remember that the heaviest character dies to rest at ~80% or so, so you can start looking for predictable rolls when they reach that percent.

EDIT: also has anyone played vs a charizard? Their tilts are so at out ranging jig's aerials. not sure what to do against them at all.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Does anyone know of a place I could get a 3DS capture card? If so, I will upload some videos of my jigglypuff games. As you will be able to tell, I am a pretty bad player, so I will need a lot of help. However, I have learned a lot from seeing you curtique other people already.

 

[larky]

Does anyone know of a place I could get a 3DS capture card? If so, I will upload some videos of my jigglypuff games. As you will be able to tell, I am a pretty bad player, so I will need a lot of help. However, I have learned a lot from seeing you curtique other people already.

They're quite expensive to set up... The current options are buying a modkit yourself and modding the ds yourself or ship your DS to the seller who offers to do it for you.

You can just use your phone or any other camera. I used a book to do my video.

 

[Toxicroaker]

They're quite expensive to set up... The current options are buying a modkit yourself and modding the ds yourself or ship your DS to the seller who offers to do it for you.

You can just use your phone or any other camera. I used a book to do my video.

Ah, okay. I guess I'll get around to taking a normal video later then.

 

[JaegerEC]

Gah, got some REALLY good matches tonight I'm dying to show you guys, will upload soon

 

[ZHMT]

The most important thing with Jiggs is getting the first KO. What do you guys prefer? 3 stock matches or 2? 2 stock matches are better for whoever gets the first KO, and makes rest kos better percentage wise. It also means KO moves need to be landed less.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I think I like 3 better for most characters, but I like 2 better when I play as jiggs because I don't want to try to land rest any more than I have to.
Also, what do you guys think about using offensive rest? I use it a lot at the 60% mark and get a kill 2/3 times because of it. However, the times I don't get a kill I die, so... yeah.

 

[JaegerEC]

The most important thing with Jiggs is getting the first KO. What do you guys prefer? 3 stock matches or 2? 2 stock matches are better for whoever gets the first KO, and makes rest kos better percentage wise. It also means KO moves need to be landed less.

I personally like 3-stock a lot more. I guess 2-stock can make things "easier" in a sense for Jiggly but idk I just don't like the flow of the match. Makes some characters like Lucario really annoying to fight against because of if you get KO'd first you just lose straight away. I just don't like losing 1 stock and basically being in danger to lose the whole game. Doesn't give you a lot of time to read and adapt to your opponent.

 

[Comet7]

since i like being aggro puff and doing a lot of mindgames, i'll usually make people roll occasionally to not have their shield slapped by a pound or spaced nair. usually i'll just stand in front of them and wait for them to roll in and just rest them. so basically i'm trying to re-create mango puff. then again, that seems more of a punish thing but it also isn't exactly just "you did something really dumb", just more like "i read you like harry potter".

 

[ZHMT]

Heres a recent video of Doru, a Japanese Puff who got 25th out of 180 entrants. We can probably learn a bit from Doru.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYKaq8FoAg4

 

[drakeirving]

Good. Mostly just solid play, nothing too extraordinary. Funny to see he got both those edge read Rests. I do think the move at 8:35 was neat mindgame, despite the failure. The intent seemed to be baiting the grab and bopping them before the active frames. Or maybe it was a flub.

EDIT: He spent quite some time running, which to me feels odd, but he worked it pretty well.
He also didn't seem to do much Diddy-specific strats, as far as I can see. I was anticipating him using nair to bat away a lot of Diddy's approaches (i.e. his sideB).

 

[ZHMT]

I agree that nothing amazing was shown but it showcases basic Puff play at a decent level with I think most people should take notes on. Also does he overuse Pound? I think the move is good but its personally my weakest used move as a Puff main. I suppose its unblockable if their shield is weakened, maybe I just didn't notice. I mean he barely got punished for pound and used it a lot.

Also Jigglypuffs dash attack is really good in this game. Can someone test out when it kills Mario from center of FD since I won't be home for a while? Its safer than in Brawl too although still not safe at all really. Its just the hitbox comes out fast and lasts a while. Jigglypuff dash grab/dash attack mixups don't seem too bad even though her dash speed is awful.

 

[JaegerEC]

Yeah Doru is pretty solid. Nothing amazing or fancy but gets the job done. I dislike that he doesn't use fairs to control space and mostly uses pounds for that. Pound is honestly pretty good, I use it a lot as well, not as much as Doru but still. It's such a good stall tactic in the air to mix up your approach, and it can catch people messing up on their spacing for an instant combo/string situation. And yeah Jiggly's dash attack is SO good. Really good follow up for a fair when they miss their tech, and it has madd kill power.

 

[JaegerEC]

My apologies for the double post, but now that I have 10 posts I'm gonna be posting a lot more gameplay for you guys to look at. Gonna be uploading a lot more to my youtube channel as well, so stay tuned ^__^ I'll just edit this post with more videos for a while as to not spam the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7enogw6W20Y&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAQa5GlNAVw&index=3&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuwgK8G3gRQ&index=1&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA

I dunno how to embed videos imma noob

 

[drakeirving]

I dunno how to embed videos imma noob

Like that

 

[san.]

I am impressed by the tools that Jiggs has on the ground that supplements her air game. Jab (especially jab2's extra reach) and tilts are all good. Smashes are underwhelming but great if they can hit. On the ground, you can just move your control stick back and forth pretty much at random. It doesn't matter since you can jump at any time, and those who put practice into it can make use of Jigglypuff's incredibly short skid animations. Angled upward ftilt is actually quite nice to throw out every once in a while and can follow up after fair.

Bair isn't as easy to hit with as Brawl, but it's made up for it with the buffs to the other moves and bair's special place as a finisher and good knockback move to get foes offstage at lower %.

If there is an edge slip opportunity, I like to just run off and dair. In Brawl, this was not a viable tactic since the opponent could just SDI out of the dair, but it seems we can move with the way the opponent is trying to get out this time around (as far as I know).

Dash grab doesn't feel as good as Brawl's, but the disjoint is great enough to not get your attacks interrupted as easily when trying to out-grab attacks.

I really believe the future of the Jiggs' development lies in both ground and air play and how to quickly transition between each. Jigglypuff can move on the ground quite well surprisingly, so she can play however she likes. I'm seeing a lot of spacing techniques that are common in Melee that just don't transition that well in this game (most notably when I see people overuse falling nair).

Edit2:
I think that leaping rest is contender for the best rest custom. You can combo easily out of utilt, usmash, and dthrow. If you hit with the latter part of uair when rising, you'll also be able to combo into it. Of course you'll be punished, even if you kill, but getting a kill yourself off the top at early percents is too good to pass up. The sweetspot is also only slightly weaker than the main rest.

I only think the main rest would be better if we had reliable low % kill setups, otherwise I'm going with leaping rest.

 

[NairWizard]

At the moment I believe that Jigglypuff is very good, because she destroys Rosalina (ignoring Luma since she can take to the sky at any time) and Sheik, the two characters currently considered the best in the game. I struggle when I play Jigglypuff against Diddy Kong's f-air: is there a way around that/do you folks consistently manage to deal with it? If there is, I would say that she beats him too, though up-air kills really early and bananas stuff her ground game.

What projectiles do Jigglypuff mains have the most trouble with? I'm interested in getting some insight on her character as I don't main her.

I also think that she has a bad match-up against Ness. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[ChefKef]

I also think that she has a bad match-up against Ness. Can anyone confirm or deny?

From my experience, I have had lots of trouble with Ness too. The best counter I've found so far is to take Ness to Lumiose City, or use your jumps to fake approaches and mix up when you actually approach.

But I still think Jiggs will have a tough time with Ness.

 

[Comet7]

Does anybody know if up tilt > up air > up air > rest is guaranteed when started at 0% against midweights?

 

[SyncNatsyu]

The main trouble I have with ness is his deceptive disjointed hitboxes. Alongside his I think his FThrow or UThrow which kills us early. This makes approaches rather dangerous vs ness. Although once you get where his jumps can send him he can be poked out by waiting for his moves to finish before going in.

 

[larky]

Ness' dash attack and fair is good at out spacing jigs. Not sure how to deal with it. I've mostly just been shielding it then grabbing him or dash attack.

 

[abit_rusty]

My apologies for the double post, but now that I have 10 posts I'm gonna be posting a lot more gameplay for you guys to look at. Gonna be uploading a lot more to my youtube channel as well, so stay tuned ^__^ I'll just edit this post with more videos for a while as to not spam the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7enogw6W20Y&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAQa5GlNAVw&index=3&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuwgK8G3gRQ&index=1&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA

I dunno how to embed videos imma noob

I feel like some of those un-teched nairs in the second match could be followed up with dash attacks, or fsmash, or even another aerial. Great rest punishes in the last match.

 

[ZHMT]

Okay guys, this can be potentially great. I forced a getup from a missed tech with a weak dash attack. It was definitely enough frame advantage to land a rest. Im having trouble replicating it, lets figure this out guys.

 

[JaegerEC]

Like that

I feel like some of those un-teched nairs in the second match could be followed up with dash attacks, or fsmash, or even another aerial. Great rest punishes in the last match.

Thanks! Yeah these matches are actually kinda old my tech chasing/combo'ing wasn't too great. Got better. Gonna upload more matches tonight before I get too sleepy/busy with homework you guys are deff gonna enjoy these matches.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

This might be a better question for the Little Mac forum but how do you reliably get him off stage and gimp? Gimping Mac with Puff should be the easiest thing but my strategy of shieldgrab > backthrow off stage > ariels no longer proves effective as he's always above the stage and can side B back, which I'm pretty sure outprioritizes anything I can reach him with.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

This might be a better question for the Little Mac forum but how do you reliably get him off stage and gimp? Gimping Mac with Puff should be the easiest thing but my strategy of shieldgrab > backthrow off stage > ariels no longer proves effective as he's always above the stage and can side B back, which I'm pretty sure outprioritizes anything I can reach him with.

Throws while powerful vs little mac are very predictable. LMs gameplan is too stay as close to the center of the stage as possible and he can do this freely vs Jiggs cause she yields no projectile. Not too mention, LMs approach with the intent of not getting grabbed using high push block moves to keep them outside grab range.

If you can throw while on stage I prefer down or up throw then start knocking them off stage with fairs and nairs.(watch for counter though). His aerial haymaker can be poked out(or at least trade with) Nair and spaced fairs. If you don't want to trade with it you can go under then jump Uair, forcing LM to stay in the air(maybe back on stage but your options as Jiggs while you're both free falling are much better.)

Keeping him off stage though I just SH in place Nair at the ledge if they Haymaker. If the decide to go for ledge either let them and read what they wanna do or run off ledge Fair or Dair works. Or if they wanna hover(in LMs case one stall jump) near ledge, our dash attack works.

 

[Comet7]

for mac i like to short hop behind and react to what they do. if they jump, then bair. if they try to go low, then falling nair.

Okay guys, this can be potentially great. I forced a getup from a missed tech with a weak dash attack. It was definitely enough frame advantage to land a rest. Im having trouble replicating it, lets figure this out guys.

this is amazing.

 

[Toxicroaker]

Tried to recreate the forced getup from weak dash attack, but I can't seem to find any weak enough points in the attack to do it. Has anyone else succeeded with it yet?

 

[ZHMT]

I know for a fact it does work, the thing is Im an idiot and forgot to save a replay of it. However since it happened once Im sure itll happen again at some point and we will save it then. Its likely percent dependent so thats why we are having trouble redoing it.

Edit: Tried it on Megaman when he was at 30%, fast falled a nair, he missed the tech and got hit with a sour spot dash attack. He bounced and stood right up with more than enough time to rest. Lets experiment with this and see what we can do.

 

[JaegerEC]

Seems like the only way I can get weak hit dash attack>Rest to connect is if they either miss their tech or if they neutral tech. You can do fair>(if they miss tech or roll backwards tech) Dash attack> (if they miss their tech or if they neutral tech) Rest at about 30-45% on most of the cast excluding the really heavy characters I'm guessing.

 

[ZHMT]

Yep, its not a ko setup unfortunately. Also yeah the rest is only guaranteed if they miss their tech window. Still a huge punish off a missed tech, 8% or so plus 20% and the rest flower. Were talking like 50%ish total

 

[JaegerEC]

I wish there was at least one good/guaranteed way to use Rest offensively aside from punishing -__- meh. Anywho, will be editing this post with some more match videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kV9AckWLIQ&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nIsfxA9ers&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BwEqOiCygQ&list=UUpBJt1uoSkD-8i6SGTeYhDA&index=3

Pretty good matches against this Wario. Got about two more matches against him I'll post later, let me know what you guys think ^__^

 

[ZHMT]

There is, uptilt x2 or x3 depending on the character into late hit up air to rest can work but doesn't ko.

Also Arena Ferox is one of Jiggs best stages in the 3ds version. High ceiling mixed with stage transformations that have walls. If people don't know, at mid/high percent you can jab combo characters into a wall for a 6-10 hit combo into an unavoidable rest that kills. The transformations actually help puff survive and don't hurt her much at all vs other characters.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Guys... I think I created the worst possible thing for Jigglypuff to ever exist..... Mii Brawlerh as an Instant KO on Jigglypuff on any stage. All he has to do is land a down throw on you and it's all over. You can read more about it here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/#post-17920760

Just letting you guys know, before people start doing it to you...

 

[ZHMT]

A few things about that, first off, she cant vector the throw? Jigglypuff has the ability to alter trajectory upwards more than any other character. Second thing is what if she vectors the actual up b move so the second hit connects? Also this is only going to work at low percents, if I hit them first, Ill just fly around and run the clock if people try this, if they hit me then thats fine, I can play again. Also, we are going to know what customs are being used before the game starts, so its not like it can be a surprise. Seems like a gimmick because of vectoring.

 

[Jigglymaster]

A few things about that, first off, she cant vector the throw? Jigglypuff has the ability to alter trajectory upwards more than any other character. Second thing is what if she vectors the actual up b move so the second hit connects? Also this is only going to work at low percents, if I hit them first, Ill just fly around and run the clock if people try this, if they hit me then thats fine, I can play again. Also, we are going to know what customs are being used before the game starts, so its not like it can be a surprise. Seems like a gimmick because of vectoring.

She can, but unfortunately for her, shes the lightest character in the game and this works on characters much heavier than her. Ding and vectoring will only do so much to prevent it from happening. though, I suppose the matchup has to be tried out first before anything is said. Tho IMO this is going to be one of her worst matchups, even if he doesn't pull off this trick.