Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[ZHMT]

I don't know much about mii Brawler, but I do know a good amount about Samus as I play one regularly. One of her custom up b specials has a similar feature where the first hit of the screw attack has set knockback and I died at 19%. With vectoring it was survivable. We need to test this vs human players to scout its potency.

The move has restrictions on gnw and Rosalina. vectoring will definitely allow Jiggs to at least be in the category of those characters. Its a lot stronger than people give credit for.

Either way, I find moves like this silly, and hope they become patched someday, these things make 80-20 and worse matchups happen, which isn't good for game balance.

 

[Thinkaman]

She can both DI the throw and easily survive the hit by DIing down.

I just confirmed this in human testing.

 

[ZHMT]

Okay thought so, good news. Puffs slow fast fall speed and light weight isn't only a downside.

 

[ZHMT]

I just thought of something. If shields have 50 health, if you pound a shield dealing 11 damage + estimated 20 bonus damage, the shield only has 19 health left and starts to replenish over time. If you hit their shield with a late pound outside of shield grab range, you can likely rest their shield and break it if you're fast enough since rest does 20 damage.

Sure you will likely get punished for the pound, but an angled pound upwards crossed up or something can throw people off and you can just input rest. Pound has about 9 frames of shield stun, so its not terribly unsafe if spaced away from them and they are forced to drop shield to punish.

Gimmicky? Sure. But this is how strategies start.

 

[Jiggly]

So does the video explain how to do that crazy rollout trick?

 

[drakeirving]

fun https://gfycat.com/UnsightlyFoolishGrasshopper

 

[LightningLuxray]

On the topic of Pound, I just want to say I don't feel Doru overused it. I find Pound to be a very effective way to stop other approaches, and just counter attacks in general. It just always feel like even if I use Pound after they use their attack, I'll still hit them first. It also sends them right into the air for some nice UAir strings, and can even break shields. It's not really a good approach option though because of how easy it is to punish if it misses, but I find that when trying to stop an opponent from landing an attack, Pound works wonders.

Also shield break w/ Pound + Rest is honestly the only way I ever get to use Rest unless the opponent is bad and runs right into me lol.

 

[ZHMT]

Just a note about Puffs priority and disjoints. Her up air and fair have the most disjoint out of her aerials. I think up air may be a little more, but I'm not 100% sure. Her dair has the least disjoint if any below her. It will get beaten by most up airs in the game with a disjointed hitbox. Her nair shrinks her hurtbox and has undamagable hitboxes all around her besides right behind her back where it can be damaged. Back air has little disjoint making it hard to use properly but when spaced well vs characters like DK (besides utilt for whatever reason) or Wario its extremely safe.

Her tilts on the ground have decent percent damage so they should clank with most ground moves which is good. The percent needed to beat out moves ground vs ground was 9% difference in Brawl. I don't know what it is yet in this game. But if its 9 again it means our tilts on average will clash with any moves that deal 17% damage or less. Utilt can do 8% so be aware of that. Ftilt/Dtilt does 10, and would need to be hit by a move doing 19% or more to beat it. All assuming its the same as Brawl, which it may not be.

Also weak nair will eat any projectile that isn't a laser/PK fire priority, aka transended, as long as the projectile deals X damage or less. Where X is the amount of percent needed for moves to beat others ground vs ground +6%. So if a projectile does 15% it'll beat nair, if it does 14% it won't.

 

[ZHMT]

I have replays of evidence that can suggest rest having more than one active frame, I really need a way to record videos. Also as I said earlier, up tilts last hit or two are disjointed. Well I can confirm this as well, its actually "more accurate" to say her foot is invincible during the last frame or two of its hitbox. The things that I've seen the move do are dumb. Like beating Links dair outright without taking damage and a Samus charge shot going right through her foot during the animation.

 

[ZHMT]

Okay so, we know Jigglypuffs back air has a sweet spot that does more knockback. Well it actually does about 79% more base knockback, which is ridiculous. The knockback scaling doesnt increase however.

Hitting a character at 100% with regular back air is about equal to hitting a character at 125% with the sweetspot and it's the first active hitbox of bair, maybe second too but its definitely at the way beginning of the move.

It kills average weighted characters at 100% from the middle of FD with no rage at all.

 

[Mithost]

Hey guys, after placing second in a college tourney (28 people) and playing in a few hundred for glory matches using Jigglypuff, I have a few quick questions I'd like to ask.

1) What moves are safe on-hit at low percentages (0-25%)? I'm getting hit often after landing Nair/Fair/Dair unless it's retreating or my opponent's character doesn't have a quick move to do out of the hitstun.

2) Outside of rest and carrying people off the stage with Fair, how are you guys finishing off stocks? The reason I lost in the finals of the tournament is because I couldn't find/land a kill move until 150+%.

3) Any tips for landing footstools? They seem like a very good tool for us especially because we can gimp with it and it forces aerial opponents to tech (sets up a rest).

 

[WinterShorts]

Hey guys, after placing second in a college tourney (28 people) and playing in a few hundred for glory matches using Jigglypuff, I have a few quick questions I'd like to ask.

1) What moves are safe on-hit at low percentages (0-25%)? I'm getting hit often after landing Nair/Fair/Dair unless it's retreating or my opponent's character doesn't have a quick move to do out of the hitstun.

2) Outside of rest and carrying people off the stage with Fair, how are you guys finishing off stocks? The reason I lost in the finals of the tournament is because I couldn't find/land a kill move until 150+%.

3) Any tips for landing footstools? They seem like a very good tool for us especially because we can gimp with it and it forces aerial opponents to tech (sets up a rest).

I can answer question 2. I myself am a Jigglypuff / Yoshi main and games with my Jigglypuff can possibbly be quick because Im using a bunch of aerials to knock them completley off stage.

Here's how it goes: I use FAir in the air, they jump, I predict it, then I hit them with a NAir above whoever they're playing as. Hit what spot they can fall. Jigglypuff isn't a great K.O. machine (unless you use Rest really well), she rather knocks off characters to the egde and doesn't let them back on the stage.

Oh BTW congrats on your 2nd place! I got second place as well in a small online tournament with Yoshi and only lost to Peach and her dumb air game.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Mithost I'd say 50% or more of my kills are with Bair. It's such a great kill move. Otherwise, I kill with FSmash, Dash Attack, a Nair / Fair off the stage, or Rest.

I'd also like to know what people have to say to #1. I can sometimes get out after I Nair / Fair but usually I get hit back at lower percents.

 

[drakeirving]

Grabs, uair, ftilt, uptilt combos if you can land it. Best option imo is comboing from a landing fair/nair/bair to ftilt because of how fast it comes out.

 

[PKPro]

Hey guys, after placing second in a college tourney (28 people) and playing in a few hundred for glory matches using Jigglypuff, I have a few quick questions I'd like to ask.

1) What moves are safe on-hit at low percentages (0-25%)? I'm getting hit often after landing Nair/Fair/Dair unless it's retreating or my opponent's character doesn't have a quick move to do out of the hitstun.

2) Outside of rest and carrying people off the stage with Fair, how are you guys finishing off stocks? The reason I lost in the finals of the tournament is because I couldn't find/land a kill move until 150+%.

3) Any tips for landing footstools? They seem like a very good tool for us especially because we can gimp with it and it forces aerial opponents to tech (sets up a rest).

2. I carry them all the way to the blast zone with Fairs
3. Are you good with rest just pretend to land a rest on top of them with jump and you will footstool
1. I don't tend to land myAerials for the same reason so just fair with a full jump and pass by him to be on the other side of him and if they shield pound afterwards or Bair

 

[ZeroJanitor]

So with the balance patch coming out, how likely do you think it'll be that they remove her instant-turning Rollout?

 

[JaegerEC]

So with the balance patch coming out, how likely do you think it'll be that they remove her instant-turning Rollout?

Balance patch?

 

[Toxicroaker]

Balance patch?

They are coming out with a new patch and it makes replays unusable. Since replays are just button imputs, changing things in the game like damage, knockback, ect could potentially make replays show really weird things. For example: let's say shieks down throw gains knockback. In a replay Shiek would use down-throw to up-air and get a ko. However, after the patch it would show shiek using down-throw and then missing the up-air because they were sent too far. The rest of the match would be messed up because of it. So, Nintendo would take away replays from before the patch so that nothing like this happens. Because they are taking away replays, people think there is going to be a balance patch. It is possible, but it is most likely just a bug fix patch. Because some glitches (like jigglypuff's rollout glitch) would also mess up replays. It is already confirmed that Wario's momentum glitch is out in the Wii U, so it is probably just a patch to match what was fixed in the Wii U version. If her rollout glitch is fixed in the Wii U version, it will also be fixed in the patch.
Edit: I'm wrong. Nintendo confirmed an actual balance patch. Ignore everything I said earlier.

 

[pidgezero_one]

puff's dair cancels her aerial momentum in the wii u version and it keeps ****ing me up

 

[ZHMT]

Ugh that seems to make dair way less safe, doesn't it?

 

[drakeirving]

If it cancels momentum then gives you aerial control again it might be ok (or even good, potentially?) but if you just stop then the move becomes basically unusable due to a near-guaranteed shield grab and the impossibility to approach.

 

[ZHMT]

puff's dair cancels her aerial momentum in the wii u version and it keeps ****ing me up

Any other changes we need to know of? Does this make the move as bad as it sounds. Anything you can share will be helpful.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Any other changes we need to know of? Does this make the move as bad as it sounds. Anything you can share will be helpful.

honestly it feels like pound has been nerfed a bit (hitbox doesn't last as long as it did before) but maybe that's just me being bad and im not 100% sure if it's true or not

besides that she feels the same, bair is still OP

Ugh that seems to make dair way less safe, doesn't it?

imo yeah, because it stops your horizontal movement completely, which has never been the case in any smash game before

 

[ZHMT]

Okay good, as long as shes the same, dair still has uses at least, dont know why they changed it. If pound doesnt last as long that would be a shame, I hope its not true. Anyway to test that?

 

[Jiggly]

can dair stop hitstun ending at all or slow it down? I often find myself off screen out of hitstun trying to use pound to not die, but it doesnt work. Just wondering if it has any movvement quirks that could be useful.

 

[ZHMT]

honestly it feels like pound has been nerfed a bit (hitbox doesn't last as long as it did before) but maybe that's just me being bad and im not 100% sure if it's true or not

besides that she feels the same, bair is still OP


imo yeah, because it stops your horizontal movement completely, which has never been the case in any smash game before

When you get a chance can you test pounds duration and try to double check if its nerfed? Its pretty important as its her main way to combat shields in the air and in general. It would be appreciated a ton, I'm rather worried.

 

[Twinkiepuff]

I think sings sleep duration lasts longer. On CPUs U won't kno since the shake out inhumanly fast

 

[ZHMT]

It lasts longer in ssb4 in general vs the other games, unless you mean its buffed in the wiiu version vs the 3ds version. I like using level 9 cpus as tests for sing to see what is actually guaranteed, even if they are mashing like its tool assisted.

In example, we can find what percent followups are combos on for each wave of rest hit.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I just tested the Wii U version. Jigglypuff no longer has her rollout insta turn around glitch, it's been patched. Just to let you all know.

 

[Jiggly]

I just tested the Wii U version. Jigglypuff no longer has her rollout insta turn around glitch, it's been patched. Just to let you all know.

*cries a river*

 

[ZHMT]

Losing gimmicky things isn't a very big deal. How strong is rest in the wiiu version? Are her moves the same overall? We get pseudo buffed if we stay the same and other good characters are nerfed.

What's a priority to know imo:

Rest knockback
Bair knockback
Pound hitbox size and duration
Up air disjoint size
Speed of her jab and tilts
Knockback of fair
Overall damage output

 

[Jigglymaster]

I unfortunately won't be ale to test any of those things. It's not mine and those things seem only testable while training in the lab.

 

[ZHMT]

I understand, well we got 6 days and we will know the answers to all of this 100% so its alright

 

[Burruni]

VGBootCamp. 3DS Tourney. HungryBox gameplay. Judging by his 3DS play, I still feel that Puff is going to feel stronger once WiiU rolls around by having the C-Stick for aerial attacks while managing your main movement with the normal analog stick.

 

[pidgezero_one]

mighta just been my controller, on wii u pro controller it feels like i have more cotnrol over dair mobility for some reason

 

[ZHMT]

mighta just been my controller, on wii u pro controller it feels like i have more cotnrol over dair mobility for some reason

Well thats good news, maybe they just kept her the same which I would be fine with, I like how she is right now.

Also regarding Hungrybox matches, here is one of them, there are 3 uploaded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXb54QeNSZE

Overall I think he plays solidly, he makes some unnecessary risks imo, especially with his rest whiffs. Still a good watch though, he got 5th in this tournament.

 

[snaptrap]

So I did this in a friendly. It's a false combo, but I thought it was pretty neat. Sorry for the potato quality, capture cards are too expensive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owz8mtOM0Q4

 

[Toxicroaker]

So I did this in a friendly. It's a false combo, but I thought it was pretty neat. Sorry for the potato quality, capture cards are too expensive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owz8mtOM0Q4

That's... beautiful!

 

[Jiggly]

http://youtu.be/guoksvQ_27o
1:50 is Jigglypuff :3

 

[snaptrap]

That's... beautiful!

Thank you! :D