Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

Krynxe

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#1
As the title says, this is a thread for discussion the competitive aspects of Jigglypuff.

If you want to socialize, or discussion in this thread begins to become irrelevant, please move to the Jigglypuff Social Thread to talk.

This thread will continue to grow along with our favorite character, but for now it's a good starting place for everyone just getting their hands on the game or those of us anticipating the international release and have questions to ask or discussions to bring up.

In the future, when more people have copies of the game, a Q&A thread will be made separately to keep forward and innovative discussion in this thread. In the mean time...

Talk about Jigglypuff!
 
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#3
Ah, hello there everyone! Let me start this off with my opinion on Smash 4 puff once more and where I think she'll stand in the metagame.

For starters, she is VASTLY improved compared to her Brawl counter part. I cannot express this enough. Now, when you look at Rest, it pretty much KO's the opponent around the same percentage as Brawl. So why do people say its buffed? Well here are some reasons.

- Blast Zones are bigger in Smash 4
Yes, you know this is true, everybody is complaining about it, and whats that? Jigglypuff can still KO at the same percentage? There you go, she kills faster than everyone else. Lets not forget her BACK AIR kills at 85%. HER BACK AIR. The majority of the cast CAN'T EVEN KILL TILL LIKE 150%.

- Rest's hitbox is bigger
- It does more damage, like 5% more from the initial and the flower does more damage as well.
- She can combo into it
Welcome back Melee Puff, now you can u air and utilt your way into Rest and it will work. Sadly it looks like drill to rest will no longer work but its okay as her d-air still has a use. Now people can no longer DI the attack and every part of it will hit, racking up for some serious damage.

----------------------
Onto other things

Pound and Rollout were nerfed, but you know what? Thats okay, they were never really important to Jigglypuff's moveset and they were the only things good about her in Brawl, we should be thankful it's reversed again.

Sing didn't change a single bit so whatever
---------------
Ledge Mechanics

With the new ledge mechanics, this game really forces you to go out there and edgegaurd characters, this is incredibly important for Jiggs and she can do it so well with her incredible killing back air. And unlike her F-air in Brawl, its MUCH easier to sweetspot and kill with it. I'm glad I can use this as a kill move rather than F-Air, it was always so hard to land in brawl.
---------------
3DS Impressions

Without a C-stick, shes kind of borderline not playable. I found myself trying too hard to just short hop b-air people, or do falling u-airs, or do any combos into rest. It was just way too hard and it's made me realize how much I've relied on the C-stick to play as Puff. Jigglypuff is great, trust me, she just can't be used on the 3DS. At least I can't.
 

Krynxe

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#4
Apparently her grab pummel does 4%, which is huge for her racking up percent.

I wonder if dair could be autocancelled into rest if done correctly. Also, smash 4 definitely has the jab lock mechanics of Brawl, you can only jab 3 times before they get out but you can still combo. I imagine puff will have a really hard setting these up, maybe low% throws or something, but if you get a jab reset you can rest them for sure. 20% on hit and 35% dmg over time with the flower if I recall correctly, rest does ridiculous amounts of damage.

I don't have a japanese 3ds so I can't play yet :c But once I get my hands on the game, I'll be spending a majority of my time practicing and finding out as much as possible about puff.

Also, Jigglypuff is the lightest character in the game with a weight of 68. The next lightest is g&w at 7, and for reference Mario is 98 and Bowser is 128.
 
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Coonce

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#5
At the moment I'm predicting that characters with good out of shield punish games are going to be dominant (which I'm honestly not too thrilled about). Jigglypuff seems like she'll excel greatly in this department if what Leffen said is true, and she can rest out of shield on nearly anything. There's no better punish than death, after all. A sweet-spot bair out of shield could be deadly as well.
 

Exegguter

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#6
Isn't sleep time in general increased though? I saw some items/pokeballs that induced sleep and the sleep time was very long compared to brawl.

Predict an on-stage recovery above 80% and you got yourself a free rest/full charged rollout.
 
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pikazz

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#7
havent played the full game yet since I dont have the japanese game.

but from the videos I have seen, her Rollout have been buffed on her Rollout speed and charge so it much quicker to charge it and faster to roll it.
I dont know if its confirmed or not but it appears her Sing have been buffed. in brawl, she had 3 hitboxes, there the last one was bigger than the rest of the 2, meaning its harder to hit someone with those.
but now it seems the hitboxes are constant and bigger, meaning it will be easier to hit people with it! the only problem is will it be useful? are the sleeping time increased on lower %?

Pound looks buffed aswell, as I heard, it eats shields, similiar to Marths Shield breaker.
so if you expect a Shield and does it on the shield, you are pretty much guaranteed a Shield break if the shield heen lowered, I cannot confirm this is true so I can be wrong

also, what is this out of shield punishing I have been reading, can someone help me getting that information?
 

Coonce

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#9
also, what is this out of shield punishing I have been reading, can someone help me getting that information?
"Out of shield punishing" simply means that player 1 hit player 2 with an attack, but player 2 shielded it and counter attacked player 1 before player 1 could input another action.

After initiating an attack, the attacking player must wait until all frames of the attack have elapsed before they can input another action (unless its canceled by some means). The defending player needs to wait until the shield stun from the attack has elapsed before they can input another action. As of right now, the amount of shield stun a player receives is tiny, meaning you can shield a lot of attacks and hit the attacker back.

There's a lot more frame intricacies to this, so this is a very general overview of punishing out of shield.
 

ZeroJanitor

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#13
Something I wonder about: Rest doesn't seem consistent in this game. I've seen it kill at like 20% one time and then another time not even come close at 60%. I know the hitbox for Rest is bigger but in the former scenario, Jigglypuff went deep inside the opponent's hurtbox for the Rest so I wonder if there's a smaller stronger hitbox inside the larger weaker one. Just a theory.
 

Morbi

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#14
havent played the full game yet since I dont have the japanese game.

but from the videos I have seen, her Rollout have been buffed on her Rollout speed and charge so it much quicker to charge it and faster to roll it.
I dont know if its confirmed or not but it appears her Sing have been buffed. in brawl, she had 3 hitboxes, there the last one was bigger than the rest of the 2, meaning its harder to hit someone with those.
but now it seems the hitboxes are constant and bigger, meaning it will be easier to hit people with it! the only problem is will it be useful? are the sleeping time increased on lower %?

Pound looks buffed aswell, as I heard, it eats shields, similiar to Marths Shield breaker.
so if you expect a Shield and does it on the shield, you are pretty much guaranteed a Shield break if the shield heen lowered, I cannot confirm this is true so I can be wrong

also, what is this out of shield punishing I have been reading, can someone help me getting that information?
This is extremely late; but that has never stopped me before, after watching some game-play, it appears that pound eats about half of the shield. So it is not a shield breaker my any stretch of the imagination; however, after some shield pressure it is a great option.

Something I wonder about: Rest doesn't seem consistent in this game. I've seen it kill at like 20% one time and then another time not even come close at 60%. I know the hitbox for Rest is bigger but in the former scenario, Jigglypuff went deep inside the opponent's hurtbox for the Rest so I wonder if there's a smaller stronger hitbox inside the larger weaker one. Just a theory.
Interesting theory, I feel as though I observed something fairly similar during one of the Tourney Locator matches. I would need to check once more to be sure.
 
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#15
This is extremely late; but that has never stopped me before, after watching some game-play, it appears that pound eats about half of the shield. So it is not a shield breaker my any stretch of the imagination; however, after some shield pressure it is a great option.


Interesting theory, I feel as though I observed something fairly similar during one of the Tourney Locator matches. I would need to check once more to be sure.
I was watching just those matches, and I remember the difference being quite big, unless it turns out that the ZSS he fought on Yoshi's Island simply had bad DI (which is possible due to being surprised or perhaps not realizing Rest was so strong). I can't find an example where it should have killed but didn't, but I'll describe two examples I can find below, both of which seem to line up.

He did a uair into utilt into rest combo above the platform on Yoshi's Island, and killed ZSS at 16%. ZSS is probably a light character and IIRC Yoshi's Island doesn't have super huge blastzones like the other maps -- also, this was above the platform, so the Rest was done with some height, so I could see this making sense. Or perhaps the ZSS didn't know how the new DI works and didn't hold down.

In Awestin's match against Rob, the result is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTGscV6r_Y#t=134
He is rested at 21%, but about a jump's height lower than the situation in the game on YI. Rob still goes pretty high; if he was rested at the same height he would be at the top of the screen, almost offscreen. Since he's probably much heavier than ZSS, this makes sense; he is decently close to the blastzone.

Maybe ZSS is just really light?

But I do remember a Rest being used once on a character at 40% or so at least a little above ground and still not dying. Can't find it though.
 
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Ridel

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#16
I was watching just those matches, and I remember the difference being quite big, unless it turns out that the ZSS he fought on Yoshi's Island simply had bad DI (which is possible due to being surprised or perhaps not realizing Rest was so strong). I can't find an example where it should have killed but didn't, but I'll describe two examples I can find below, both of which seem to line up.

He did a uair into utilt into rest combo above the platform on Yoshi's Island, and killed ZSS at 16%. ZSS is probably a light character and IIRC Yoshi's Island doesn't have super huge blastzones like the other maps -- also, this was above the platform, so the Rest was done with some height, so I could see this making sense. Or perhaps the ZSS didn't know how the new DI works and didn't hold down.

In Awestin's match against Rob, the result is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTGscV6r_Y#t=134
He is rested at 21%, but about a jump's height lower than the situation in the game on YI. Rob still goes pretty high; if he was rested at the same height he would be at the top of the screen, almost offscreen. Since he's probably much heavier than ZSS, this makes sense; he is decently close to the blastzone.

Maybe ZSS is just really light?

But I do remember a Rest being used once on a character at 40% or so at least a little above ground and still not dying. Can't find it though.

Possibly this one, though it kills at 60%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOqhsI5mIE&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw
 

san.

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#18
Indeed, bair was buffed. I think rest is going to be a bit overrated in this game for a while. I'm just going to player her like a buffed Brawl Jiggs.
 

A2ZOMG

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#19

san.

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#20
Maybe you're right. I was thinking of the abundance of fishing for rest in hard reads vs properly setting up, mostly in response to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTGscV6r_Y . I was thinking that most people would be tempted to rely on getting the rest reads too much over using her whole moveset at the beginning of this game's lifespan.
 

Krynxe

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#21
Using her other moves is what takes people's minds off of the fact that you want to rest them

It's just like melee. If you keep going for uptilts and grabs, you'll get punished. Just play your game and throw rest setups in there occasionally. Catch them sleeping by sleeping on em :p
 

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#22
I saw from some matches from Awestin that you can still juggle a couple of Fair. I guess it's a WoP at this point?
 

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#23
I saw from some matches from Awestin that you can still juggle a couple of Fair. I guess it's a WoP at this point?
Yes she does retain her WoP abilities but they are not as prominent as they were in Melee but buffed from Brawl.
 
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#29
The 3rd sing alternative seems to turn mario around. Does it work like mario's cape? Could projectiles be pushed back too? If so, I would definitely use that.
I got to test it out yesterday, this is how it works

-It's incredibly slow
-It hurts players and turns them around, meaning it does NOT work like a cape, AKA the opponent can use their recovery again if they get hit by this attack.
-You can't normally jump ledge cancel it because its too slow. HOWEVER, It is possible to make the Sing 3 Ledge Cancel jump work if you hold down on the control stick to not immediately grab the ledge, then let it up, you can delay the time you grab the ledge by doing this and the first part of the move will be able to come out in time.
 

Jiggly

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#30
I got to test it out yesterday, this is how it works

-It's incredibly slow
-It hurts players and turns them around, meaning it does NOT work like a cape, AKA the opponent can use their recovery again if they get hit by this attack.
-You can't normally jump ledge cancel it because its too slow. HOWEVER, It is possible to make the Sing 3 Ledge Cancel jump work if you hold down on the control stick to not immediately grab the ledge, then let it up, you can delay the time you grab the ledge by doing this and the first part of the move will be able to come out in time.
Darn, there goes my hopes for an amazing sing alternative. How does hyper voice work for edge guarding? Does it seem useful?
 
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#31
Darn, there goes my hopes for an amazing sing alternative. How does hyper voice work for edge guarding? Does it seem useful?
Haven't tested that out enough yet, from what I remember though, that can ledge cancel sing normally and it might be a good ledge get up move to get your opponent off you. Thats the only positive side I can see it having, it's got a bigger range than normal sing though.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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#32
Finally found the appropriate place to put this. XD
So, My Smash Corner has uploaded a video of new Jigglypuff tech in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30q6kw2qPw

So he/ she (<--?) can do: Shield -> Crouch -> Short Hop -> Rest, in order to punish grabs from LARGE (Marth for example) characters. Unfortunately, Rest isn't as powerful compared to Melee and for the fact smaller characters like Mario can still grab him/her (<--?). Although, Jigglypuff can use this to kill using Rest at 60%+.
This is pretty freaking sick. Imagine Someone pulling this off at a Tourney. Everyone would be hype :surprised: Especially since Rest seems pretty practical in this game.


EDIT 1: Added by request of Krynxe
Jigglypuff gets hit or grabbed sometimes when holding crouch for a couple of reasons. One, because her crouching animation causes her to move up and down very slightly, so this also causes her hurtboxes to sway just enough to make the difference. Also, in melee, when you initially crouch you actually go lower than you are during the rest of your crouch animation. For instance, a well-timed crouch could go under Marth's dash grab in melee. This has likely returned in Smash 4, but it looks less prominent.
 
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#33
Finally found the appropriate place to put this. XD
So, My Smash Corner has uploaded a video of new Jigglypuff tech in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30q6kw2qPw

So he/ she (<--?) can do: Shield -> Crouch -> Short Hop -> Rest, in order to punish grabs from LARGE (Marth for example) characters. Unfortunately, Rest isn't as powerful compared to Melee and for the fact smaller characters like Mario can still grab him/her (<--?). Although, Jigglypuff can use this to kill using Rest at 60%+.
This is pretty freaking sick. Imagine Someone pulling this off at a Tourney. Everyone would be hype :surprised: Especially since Rest seems pretty practical in this game.
Oh hey I saw that video on youtube earlier, I was sharing it around in some of the other Jiggly threads but I hadn't in this one though. Thanks for the video!

Also, CT Zero has his input on Puff, if anyone is curious.

 

*JuriHan*

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#34
Ah, hello there everyone! Let me start this off with my opinion on Smash 4 puff once more and where I think she'll stand in the metagame.

For starters, she is VASTLY improved compared to her Brawl counter part. I cannot express this enough. Now, when you look at Rest, it pretty much KO's the opponent around the same percentage as Brawl. So why do people say its buffed? Well here are some reasons.

- Blast Zones are bigger in Smash 4
Yes, you know this is true, everybody is complaining about it, and whats that? Jigglypuff can still KO at the same percentage? There you go, she kills faster than everyone else. Lets not forget her BACK AIR kills at 85%. HER BACK AIR. The majority of the cast CAN'T EVEN KILL TILL LIKE 150%.

- Rest's hitbox is bigger
- It does more damage, like 5% more from the initial and the flower does more damage as well.
- She can combo into it
Welcome back Melee Puff, now you can u air and utilt your way into Rest and it will work. Sadly it looks like drill to rest will no longer work but its okay as her d-air still has a use. Now people can no longer DI the attack and every part of it will hit, racking up for some serious damage.


----------------------
Onto other things

Pound and Rollout were nerfed, but you know what? Thats okay, they were never really important to Jigglypuff's moveset and they were the only things good about her in Brawl, we should be thankful it's reversed again.

Sing didn't change a single bit so whatever
---------------
Ledge Mechanics

With the new ledge mechanics, this game really forces you to go out there and edgegaurd characters, this is incredibly important for Jiggs and she can do it so well with her incredible killing back air. And unlike her F-air in Brawl, its MUCH easier to sweetspot and kill with it. I'm glad I can use this as a kill move rather than F-Air, it was always so hard to land in brawl.
---------------
3DS Impressions

Without a C-stick, shes kind of borderline not playable. I found myself trying too hard to just short hop b-air people, or do falling u-airs, or do any combos into rest. It was just way too hard and it's made me realize how much I've relied on the C-stick to play as Puff. Jigglypuff is great, trust me, she just can't be used on the 3DS. At least I can't.
Nice write up. She sorta reminds me of smash64 puff minus being able to combo into d-air, but I'm having issues short hopping in general on my (Pikachu)3DS. Maybe it's just the pad or as you said we're spoiled I either don't get a jump to come out at all or I press too much and get a full jump so asdaf. I have this issue with all characters, anyway to short hop consistently? Lol

edit: n/m i got used to it
 
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Flarame

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#35
Hi guys, I am new to Jiggly, really want to make her my main this time in SSB4 and I wanted a few tips and tricks as a newcomer if possible, like what to learn, what to do, what to avoid, this sort of stuff. Thanks a lot ! :)
 
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#36
I find that D-Throw to Up-air to rest is reliable on people below like 60% online. I'm not sure how much the online affects it but its a pretty reliable combo/kill set up against the right people.

Now onto the bad stuff, getting low percent rests on characters like Falcon, Bowser, and DK are not safe at all in this game. They just come right back down about the time you do and hit you with a falcon punch, F smash, or Donkey punch respectively.

Let me know what you guys have found so far.
 

Krynxe

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#37
Finally found the appropriate place to put this. XD
So, My Smash Corner has uploaded a video of new Jigglypuff tech in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30q6kw2qPw

So he/ she (<--?) can do: Shield -> Crouch -> Short Hop -> Rest, in order to punish grabs from LARGE (Marth for example) characters. Unfortunately, Rest isn't as powerful compared to Melee and for the fact smaller characters like Mario can still grab him/her (<--?). Although, Jigglypuff can use this to kill using Rest at 60%+.
This is pretty freaking sick. Imagine Someone pulling this off at a Tourney. Everyone would be hype :surprised: Especially since Rest seems pretty practical in this game.
I've tried this myself already and it works grerat, but I had no idea it worked out of shield so well! Since I'm a melee puff player I didn't even think to try that. Amazing video, and I have something to mention (at 2:05-2:18)

Might want to add a summary of this as an annotation to the video or something:
Jigglypuff gets hit or grabbed sometimes when holding crouch for a couple of reasons. One, because her crouching animation causes her to move up and down very slightly, so this also causes her hurtboxes to sway just enough to make the difference. Also, in melee, when you initially crouch you actually go lower than you are during the rest of your crouch animation. For instance, a well-timed crouch could go under Marth's dash grab in melee. This has likely returned in Smash 4, but it looks less prominent.
 

CyberHyperPhoenix

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#38
I've tried this myself already and it works grerat, but I had no idea it worked out of shield so well! Since I'm a melee puff player I didn't even think to try that. Amazing video, and I have something to mention (at 2:05-2:18)

Might want to add a summary of this as an annotation to the video or something:
Jigglypuff gets hit or grabbed sometimes when holding crouch for a couple of reasons. One, because her crouching animation causes her to move up and down very slightly, so this also causes her hurtboxes to sway just enough to make the difference. Also, in melee, when you initially crouch you actually go lower than you are during the rest of your crouch animation. For instance, a well-timed crouch could go under Marth's dash grab in melee. This has likely returned in Smash 4, but it looks less prominent.
Nice XD Also do you want me too get rid of my blurb and replace it with yours?
 
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