Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Thinkaman]

Pound does 64% of a full shield.

 

[ZHMT]

I tried jab resets with first hit jab with the move used 1 to 9 times for staling and none of it works unfortunately.

Pound does 64% for sure? How much shield health is there in this game? It must have a large shield damage bonus if it does 64% of a shield. It did 20 extra shield damage in the other games.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shields in Smash 4 appear to have 50 HP (like Brawl) with no 0.7x multiplier (unlike Brawl).

 

[yoshii]

100% this. People take note

people underrate nair. It's probably Puff's best move, no joke.

I cannot support this theory enough. This is how I do all my damage and set up kills. Also... haven't read the entire thread yet, but no one has discussed rest from rolls. I see so many people roll around constantly, easy to get a few rests once you pick up on it. Only requires your brain, no up-air into up tilts. lol

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I've gotten a lot of punishes with airdodge > rest. It's not as easy to do as it sounds and is a bit situational but it allows you to punish things you might not be able to otherwise.

 

[ZHMT]

Okay so a bair does 26% of a shield then, so bair x2 and pound will break a shield if done within a certain time frame. Good to know.

When people miss techs on platforms, that's when you should be getting free rests guys, its really easy in this game because of rests larger hitbox.

Also weak nair near the ledge to offstage bair combos and kills, one of my favorite things about ssb4 Puff

 

[drakeirving]

if only Glory had platforms though

 

[LightningLuxray]

Yeah I've been breaking a decent amount of shields with Pound recently, it's a pretty good move.

Nair and especially Fair are better approach options overall, though.

Thanks for all the help, everyone :]

 

[Krynxe]

this is incredible. I could have sworn this didn't work when I tried it before, but now I'll definitely have to look more into it! This could be a very exciting and helpful tool for jiggs

thanks to @ThaWhiplash for sharing this video with me

 

[Yokoblue]

this is incredible. I could have sworn this didn't work when I tried it before, but now I'll definitely have to look more into it! This could be a very exciting and helpful tool for jiggs

thanks to @ThaWhiplash for sharing this video with me

We litterally posted this video at the same time
Talk about it in the thread I made plz

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Wow, Jiggs was able to use Rollout to break Little Mac's shield?! Wow!

 

[CosmicFuzz]

So how exactly does one go about doing this glorious move?

 

[CranberryGod]

Anyone have any really cool rest combos yet? I've noticed that on the top platform of battlefield, you can u-tilt into rest at around 20ish for a kill.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

mmm I've been having trouble punishing rolls while airborne(as in at least a full jump high and descending), I usually try to land so I can punish rolls with SH Nair or Fair but that gets difficult when my opponent has a spammable projectile. I can run up dash attack to hit a back roll but once I approach they launch the projectile and I'm in hitstun. I can jump over most of them but some are fast enough where they can dodge again before I get to them.

(I swear everyone else has less landing lag/recovery frames than I do, no not including auto cancels for aerials)

 

[RedBeanPorridge]

I feel like with pound, in exchange for horizontal momentum, they might have increased its priority. I feel like I've stopped at least a dozen powerful-looking attacks with it.

That or Rollout has extremely low priority by comparison :\

 

[ZHMT]

Jiggs landing lag is above average vs the cast. Nair, Fair, Uair is 15 frames. Bair is 18 frames, Dair is 30, but we don't land with it and lots of chars are actually laggier. If only we had Falcon upair lag aka like 8-9 frames. We would be able to up air to rest a lot easier and at higher percents.

Also, everyone use up tilt more omg, the move is amazing for catching landings because if they air dodge you can up tilt them again for free. Its the least laggy tilt she has. It sets up juggles, it kills earlier than her up smash can. The best part is that its disjointed as heck. Seriously, its ridiculous, once we see the characters hitboxes, people are gonna be like uhh, who made this?

Up tilt kos Mario around 130 with Puff at 0 on FD. The knockback scaling is really high, with Jiggs at 100 it'll KO Mario around 110-115. I wanna see more uptilts guys.

 

[RedBeanPorridge]

Jiggs landing lag is above average vs the cast. Nair, Fair, Uair is 15 frames. Bair is 18 frames, Dair is 30, but we don't land with it and lots of chars are actually laggier. If only we had Falcon upair lag aka like 8-9 frames. We would be able to up air to rest a lot easier and at higher percents.

Also, everyone use up tilt more omg, the move is amazing for catching landings because if they air dodge you can up tilt them again for free. Its the least laggy tilt she has. It sets up juggles, it kills earlier than her up smash can. The best part is that its disjointed as heck. Seriously, its ridiculous, once we see the characters hitboxes, people are gonna be like uhh, who made this?

Up tilt kos Mario around 130 with Puff at 0 on FD. The knockback scaling is really high, with Jiggs at 100 it'll KO Mario around 110-115. I wanna see more uptilts guys.

I agree 100% with jiggs' uptilt. I never realised how great it was until i accidentally KO'ed someone at about 120%+ with it. It makes her up smash seem utterly useless by comparison.

 

[drakeirving]

Uptilt kill percentages:

Mario: 133%
Luigi: 128%
Peach: 123%
Bowser: 148%
Yoshi: 135%
Rosalina: 117%
Bowser Jr: 140%
Wario: 140%
Game&Watch: 112%
Donkey Kong: 152%
Diddy Kong: 133%
Link: 139%
Zelda: 123%
Sheik: 121%
Ganondorf: 142%
Toon Link: 127%
Samus: 137%
Zero Suit Samus: 122%

Marth: 131%
Ike: 143%
Dedede: 157%
Little Mac: 129%
Fox: 121%
Jigglypuff: 106%
Greninja: 126%
Captain Falcon: 141%

Tested on FD, at same % (Training mode). I also might have sourspotted some and didn't catch it, so take these with a grain of salt. I didn't finish all the characters; the second set there are just characters of interest. I think this is a good enough representation to say when it's within kill range for a particular weight class.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Uptilt kill percentages:

Mario: 133%
Luigi: 128%
Peach: 123%
Bowser: 148%
Yoshi: 135%
Rosalina: 117%
Bowser Jr: 140%
Wario: 140%
Game&Watch: 112%
Donkey Kong: 152%
Diddy Kong: 133%
Link: 139%
Zelda: 123%
Sheik: 121%
Ganondorf: 142%
Toon Link: 127%
Samus: 137%
Zero Suit Samus: 122%

Marth: 131%
Ike: 143%
Dedede: 157%
Little Mac: 129%
Fox: 121%
Jigglypuff: 106%
Greninja: 126%
Captain Falcon: 141%

Tested on FD, at same % (Training mode). I also might have sourspotted some and didn't catch it, so take these with a grain of salt. I didn't finish all the characters; the second set there are just characters of interest. I think this is a good enough representation to say when it's within kill range for a particular weight class.

whoa, well now I know where each of Pika's kill moves went to.

 

[Soft Serve]

Those are all still such high percents, I feel jiggs potential lies in the ability to take stocks quickly at low percents with rest setups and carrying people to the blastzones. Having to rely on uptilts to kill is a really bad plan imo

 

[ZHMT]

The problem is that there are no guaranteed rest setups right now that KO. At the percents where rest kills, the move used before rest that started the string will have too much knockback to combo with. Upair to rest can work but its a small window and good players will see it coming, trust me.

Carrying people offstage and gimping is obviously good, however there are a lot of matchups where you cannot, a great deal of them.

Playing safe and racking damage with mixups until back air kills is a more safer and viable way to play Puff. People are going to shield a lot in this game, the shield is amazing. Once getting a grab means 16% with 2 pummels and a throw, its not hard at all to take note that your uptilt kills. Its a way safer option on the ground to punish with, I mean, turn around up tilt is potentially faster than any of her smashes anyway.

I'm not saying to rely on it, and sure its not her only kill move, but its a good one and I think we need to be using it a lot if we aren't already.

Oh also, the move isn't weak, the percentages aren't high. These percentages are with Puff having no rage boost to knockback and most of the time we have rage boosts in some regard. It starts working at 40%, take that into account.

 

[Funtroon]

Here's a video of me playing Jiggs in for glory mode. I'm not an expert, just getting into the competitive aspects of Smash and would love for those who are experience to critique me.

 

[drakeirving]

Rolling is not a method of transportation.
No seriously though, rolling constantly becomes predictable and punishable very quickly; any good player would catch your rolls. And then when you weren't rolling, you were dashing, which is also pretty bad not only because Jiggs is so slow, but you can only really grab or dash attack out of it. Jiggs' main method of approach should be the air, whether from higher up or (preferably) by using short hops. Robin was also guilty of too much rolling. He's also guilty of doing basically everything at bad times.

Another thing is that you are always approaching and nearly every time you approach you attack, which is also very predictable. This Robin wasn't a good example but Robin's attacks generally outprioritize Jiggs and he should have been able to brush you off as soon as you came close. He just didn't often use the right move to do so.

You can duck Thoron by the way.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Here's a video of me playing Jiggs in for glory mode. I'm not an expert, just getting into the competitive aspects of Smash and would love for those who are experience to critique me.

Note: I'm not actually critiquing(one I'm not an amazing Jigg and 2 I get distracted easily)just noticed some things

I count 63 rolls, 5 of which were air dodges, 3 were spot dodges I think. The roll and spot dodge rests were nice though risky even vs robin who recovers slowly from grab whiff.

Robin has great horizontal control so I get why SH vs him would be riskier than most other chars not named DHD, still could've Fair and Bair'd more to approach instead of mostly dash attacks(even FF Dair is nice vs robin since his Up smash is very precise).

I don't use rollout too often but I don't think using it is safe when grounded since the animation makes it obvious.

Pound while nice to get back on stage and random spacing tool thanks to priority, jiggs takes a long time to recover so its easy to punish.

Anywho @ Krynxe I'm gonna....you know what I'll ask in the social.

Those are all still such high percents, I feel jiggs potential lies in the ability to take stocks quickly at low percents with rest setups and carrying people to the blastzones. Having to rely on uptilts to kill is a really bad plan imo

Pika can't kill outside of gimping so to him those percents are amazing.

EDIT:

Rolling is not a method of transportation.

This

 

[SyncNatsyu]

Sorry for a double post or if this is improper

Too make it easier on the eyes here's the WIP uptilt percents posted above by @ drakeirving ,organized.
(also since they are starting to get buried)
Organized by percents first, names second

---
Jigglypuff: 106%
Game&Watch: 112%
Rosalina: 117%
Fox: 121%
Sheik: 121%
Zero Suit Samus: 122%
Peach: 123%
Zelda: 123%
Greninja: 126%
Toon Link: 127%
Luigi: 128%
Little Mac: 129%
Marth: 131%
Diddy Kong: 133%
Mario: 133%
Yoshi: 135%
Samus: 137%
Link: 139%
Bowser Jr: 140%
Wario: 140%
Captain Falcon: 141%
Ganondorf: 142%
Ike: 143%
Bowser: 148%
Donkey Kong: 152%
Dedede: 157%
---

and the Rest percents posted by @Molsondrinker

---
Jigglypuff - 43%
Game & Watch - 46%
Kirby - 49%
Rosalina - 50%
Sheik - 52%
Fox - 52%
Pikachu - 52%
Olimar - 52%
Peach - 53%
Palutena - 53%
Zelda - 54%
Zero Suit Samus - 54%
Meta Knight - 54%
Greninja - 54%
Toon Link - 55%
Falco - 55%
Wii Fit Trainer - 55%
Luigi - 56%
Ness - 56%
Sonic - 57%
Villager - 58%
Pac-Man - 58%
Yoshi - 59%
Pit - 59%
Robin - 59%
Dark Pit - 59%
Mario - 60%
Diddy Kong - 60%
Marth - 60%
Little Mac - 60%
Doctor Mario - 60%
Lucina - 60%
Bowser Jr - 61%
Samus - 61%
Charizard - 62%
Duck Hunt - 62%
Shulk (no monado arts) - 62%
Link - 63%
Lucario - 63%
Rob - 63%
Wario - 64%
Ganondorf - 64%
Bowser - 66%
Ike - 66%
Falcon - 66%
Megaman - 66%
Donkey Kong - 71%
DeDeDe - 78%
---

 

[Funtroon]

Thank you guys for the comments. All of them were pretty helpful!

One more question, when is the best way to use shield-roll?

 

[Krynxe]

Shield Rolling is amazing in smash 4. Practically any situation where you expect a grab, some sort of shield pressure, or when you're being pressured by the ledge in order to regain some stage control are all good situations. But honestly, explaining how and when to roll is too complex because it completely has to do with your opponent and how they react to you doing it. At the end of the day, just think of rolling as a way to reset a situation where you're not in a good position back into a neutral position where your opponent doesn't have any advantage over you. Do not roll randomly unless you know it's completely safe, regular movement is almost always better, but again smash 4 rolling is incredibly strong so there are many situations where you can roll just fine.

 

[ZHMT]

Jigglypuffs roll is close to her run speed and faster than her walk speed, meaning its better for her than other characters.

Something I like to do is throw out a retreating fair, land away but spaced so I can roll behind them in reaction to them pressing a button and inputting rest right when the roll ends. It takes good spacing and understanding of how it works but its good, especially vs tether grabs, something that's especially good vs Puff in this game. I have some replays of me playing in doubles using a lot of this. I need a way to record them, Ill get some videos up soon.

But yeah, rolls aren't bad, just situationally good, like spot dodges. If its not being punished, don't fix it is my outlook on the game xD

 

[Toxicroaker]

Sorry for a double post or if this is improper

Too make it easier on the eyes here's the WIP uptilt percents posted above by @ drakeirving ,organized.
(also since they are starting to get buried)
Organized by percents first, names second

---
Jigglypuff: 106%
Game&Watch: 112%
Rosalina: 117%
Fox: 121%
Sheik: 121%
Zero Suit Samus: 122%
Peach: 123%
Zelda: 123%
Greninja: 126%
Toon Link: 127%
Luigi: 128%
Little Mac: 129%
Marth: 131%
Diddy Kong: 133%
Mario: 133%
Yoshi: 135%
Samus: 137%
Link: 139%
Bowser Jr: 140%
Wario: 140%
Captain Falcon: 141%
Ganondorf: 142%
Ike: 143%
Bowser: 148%
Donkey Kong: 152%
Dedede: 157%
---

and the Rest percents posted by @Molsondrinker

---
Jigglypuff - 43%
Game & Watch - 46%
Kirby - 49%
Rosalina - 50%
Sheik - 52%
Fox - 52%
Pikachu - 52%
Olimar - 52%
Peach - 53%
Palutena - 53%
Zelda - 54%
Zero Suit Samus - 54%
Meta Knight - 54%
Greninja - 54%
Toon Link - 55%
Falco - 55%
Wii Fit Trainer - 55%
Luigi - 56%
Ness - 56%
Sonic - 57%
Villager - 58%
Pac-Man - 58%
Yoshi - 59%
Pit - 59%
Robin - 59%
Dark Pit - 59%
Mario - 60%
Diddy Kong - 60%
Marth - 60%
Little Mac - 60%
Doctor Mario - 60%
Lucina - 60%
Bowser Jr - 61%
Samus - 61%
Charizard - 62%
Duck Hunt - 62%
Shulk (no monado arts) - 62%
Link - 63%
Lucario - 63%
Rob - 63%
Wario - 64%
Ganondorf - 64%
Bowser - 66%
Ike - 66%
Falcon - 66%
Megaman - 66%
Donkey Kong - 71%
DeDeDe - 78%
---

Is all of that based on no vectoring?

 

[ZHMT]

Yes, that's based on without input from the defending player. Same goes for the rest ko percents. Just note vectoring down a purely vertical knockback move like utilt and rest will require about 16% more to ko. This extra percent is almost completely negated by rage when Puff is at 150%.

Also when people vector, they need to have down held during hitlag, which is difficult on faster moves than slower ones since you have less time to react.

In example, vectoring Sheiks up air properly after being thrown would mean inputting down and holding it during the move until the end, easy and anyone can do it. For rest they need to have down inputted when they get hit.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok, prepare for a REALLY noob-ish question, but.....

How do you guys "punish" rolls, especially those of characters with projectiles?

Basically, I'm losing to those characters that spam rolls. A lot. For example, I was playing a Mega Man the other day, and literally all he did was roll from one side of the stage as I attempted to chase him, fire off a projectile right before I was about to reach him, and then right as I was about to go in for the Fair, he'd start rolling to the other side. I couldn't approach him from above, either, because he has this uppercut move that would always hit me. To be completely honest, I was almost ****ing 2-stocked by someone using one of the "noobiest" strategies in the game - just constant roll spam.

Another scenario - I'm playing against a Lucario. The match starts with him camping with Aura Sphere, so I decide to go in for the approach. After floating in the air for a bit, I go in for the Fair, only to be met with him rolling backwards and then going in for a Dash Attack. This can also happen with shields - for example, I was playing against a Game & Watch who would just sit there until I approached, shield my attack, and the grab me until I died. If I DON'T approach, they just sit and spam projectiles.

So, back to my question - what can Jiggs do to punish this? Most characters have a nice DSmash or some other tool (Like ZSS's Side B) to punish roll spam, but with Jigglypuff, I'm lucky to get off the occasional FAir. Should I try to time my Rests with their rolls? It there a move that can keep them from continually rolling? How do I approach someone who's baiting me with rolls? Help me please ;_;

 

[ZHMT]

Regarding facing players who do what LightningLuxray faces, you simply need to change how you attack shields and don't commit as much into attacks.

In example, if you nair their shield and retreat, you are preventing shield grabs and if they roll behind you, you will hit them as you retreat. This is how you should be using nair anyway until their shield is weak and you can poke at their head with it from above. If they roll away, sure you may not have hit them but they just lost space and eventually they won't have any left behind them. When this happens, their option to roll away is removed, so its easier to read them as they will likely roll behind you at this point, even if its not safe at all and for little reason.

Remember, every time they roll away, they give up some stage control and when they roll behind you, its a free 6% from nair plus followups. They shouldn't be shield grabbing you if you retreat and space aerials properly. I understand its hard to do online in lag and without a cstick. Don't just hit peoples shields with fair and expect to not be punished, its not safe.

Also youre using Jiggs! Float towards them, don't even throw a move out, float back, see what they do. Players like this have a deceptively strong but predictable set of strategies, if you figure them out you won't ever lose to it anymore.

Projectiles are easy, you can crouch under a lot of them and for most, once you get in close enough just nair through float towards them and punish their cooldown. Jiggs is pretty good vs projectiles.

Do things like weave in, weave out. Did they hold shield? Yeah they did, I'm gonna float in next time and just land and grab them. Yeah it worked, oh well, I guess I have to do this until it stops working. Oh it didn't? That's a shame xP

 

[LightningLuxray]

Regarding facing players who do what LightningLuxray faces, you simply need to change how you attack shields and don't commit as much into attacks.

In example, if you nair their shield and retreat, you are preventing shield grabs and if they roll behind you, you will hit them as you retreat. This is how you should be using nair anyway until their shield is weak and you can poke at their head with it from above. If they roll away, sure you may not have hit them but they just lost space and eventually they won't have any left behind them. When this happens, their option to roll away is removed, so its easier to read them as they will likely roll behind you at this point, even if its not safe at all and for little reason.

Remember, every time they roll away, they give up some stage control and when they roll behind you, its a free 6% from nair plus followups. They shouldn't be shield grabbing you if you retreat and space aerials properly. I understand its hard to do online in lag and without a cstick. Don't just hit peoples shields with fair and expect to not be punished, its not safe.

Also youre using Jiggs! Float towards them, don't even throw a move out, float back, see what they do. Players like this have a deceptively strong but predictable set of strategies, if you figure them out you won't ever lose to it anymore.

Projectiles are easy, you can crouch under a lot of them and for most, once you get in close enough just nair through float towards them and punish their cooldown. Jiggs is pretty good vs projectiles.

Do things like weave in, weave out. Did they hold shield? Yeah they did, I'm gonna float in next time and just land and grab them. Yeah it worked, oh well, I guess I have to do this until it stops working. Oh it didn't? That's a shame xP

Thank you for the well thought out response, it means a lot! I'll definitely try to work on this, thanks!

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Has anyone been messing around with Jiggs' custom moves? I've found Leaping Rest to be a useful combo tool, gets kills off of up-throw at higher percents.

 

[ZHMT]

Leaping rest isn't good because of vectoring. You can't combo into it reliably when they would be ko'd off the top. Its too easy to see coming unfortunately. Its also really weak and only usable at a percent range of about 25% before it becomes useless. Regular rest is great at very low percent and from 60% and onwards.

If the move was stronger I would consider using it more or if she popped up a bit higher.

 

[larky]

New jiggly player here, I'm having difficulty inputting nairs while approaching, any advice?

And how do you guys try and avoid getting shield grabbed? (That's the term right? Where you hit their shield then get grabbed :[ )

 

[ZHMT]

My previous post, post number 152 goes over how to prevent shield grabs.to nair when you approach, just input your attack buttpon when your control stick is at neutral position, when you move forward let it go back to neutral before attacking.

 

[larky]

I played against a Lucina today. I wanted to save a replay of the times I lost but I forgot to. Here are the two I remembered to save:

I personally feel I missed too many possible punishes on her charged neutral B and the counter... Mostly lack of mental anticipation of that choice by them.

I also couldn't really catch when and why that player would use counter. There was one instance where I kept jumping in their face hoping to bait a counter but it didn't work. I'm also curious what you all think about punishing missed techs, sometimes the dash attack works sometimes it doesn't... I've been considering using pound for it's high priority or maybe SH Dair / Nair?

Towards the end of one of the matches they kept spamming it and I honestly felt like I got lucky with both wins, they made some really odd recovery mistakes.

Thoughts please?

Oh and let me know how the quality looks. I recorded it using my Nexus 5 and wasn't too sure if the percentages were visible enough. EDIT: btw I've muted it cause there was a lot of background noise, etc. Your headphones / speakers aren't broken!

 

[SyncNatsyu]

I played against a Lucina today. I wanted to save a replay of the times I lost but I forgot to. Here are the two I remembered to save:

I personally feel I missed too many possible punishes on her charged neutral B and the counter... Mostly lack of mental anticipation of that choice by them.

I also couldn't really catch when and why that player would use counter. There was one instance where I kept jumping in their face hoping to bait a counter but it didn't work. I'm also curious what you all think about punishing missed techs, sometimes the dash attack works sometimes it doesn't... I've been considering using pound for it's high priority or maybe SH Dair / Nair?

Towards the end of one of the matches they kept spamming it and I honestly felt like I got lucky with both wins, they made some really odd recovery mistakes.

Thoughts please?

Oh and let me know how the quality looks. I recorded it using my Nexus 5 and wasn't too sure if the percentages were visible enough. EDIT: btw I've muted it cause there was a lot of background noise, etc. Your headphones / speakers aren't broken!

I know its a replay but for a second there when I was watching both at the same time I thought you were playing without touching the 3ds ><

I can't say much now(i'm tired), but I agree you should've gotten some punishes there when you didn't. ex: at 2:06 in the second vid when Luci went for the up smash you rolled instead of a forward tilt or grab.

 

[drakeirving]

- Your approaches were fairly predictable for the most part. You attacked almost every time you approached, and you approached in a very blatant way. This is pretty much why Lucina 1 got away with so much rolling.

- You roll just a bit too much. As in, you're making unnecessary rolls when the opponent is close and are leaving yourself open. Lucina 1 didn't take advantage of it very often because she also rolled everywhere.

- You like to roll backwards after attacking. Very punishable.

- You're really afraid of Shield Breaker. As you should be, but you let it become a tool for them to space, since you backed off every single time it was used. You cannot punish it coming in from the front; they regain control too quickly.
- You should use more nair. It comes out faster than her other attacks, has a much larger hitbox than bair, has good priority, and its lasting hitbox is glorious, especially for rollers. If you want to try to get a counterhit in-between two hits, use nair (or Rest).

- Using more nair also will help mix up your bairs. As it is now, it's obvious that if you're facing backwards, you're trying to bair. Being able to mix it up makes it more difficult for opponents to space and time attacks since they know you might use either, which in turn makes it easier for you, on top of giving you more coverage.

- The answer to "how do I punish bad techs" is "probably nair". If you're talking about missed tech from fair, then often you can get in dash attack, and this can also link into Pound or nair depending on character. What if they teched and you dashed anyways? Well, you can roll back, roll away, spot-dodge, shield, SH nair, or duck; but don't make it predictable. I'm guilty of shielding afterwards so I end up getting grabbed more often than I should.