It's Hopeless

[Landry]

Not true. I've used MK many times in tourney before that. I use mostly MK for doubles, and for the REALLY gay stages I go MK.

I stand corrected. I knew you had used MK for doubles, but I didn't know you had used him for singles before.

 

[HugS™]

I define ROB's ceiling as the point where people realize they don't ever have to get hit by a Nair or Bair by simply watching and waiting for the start up animation.
They may still get hit by the fair and Uair since those 2 are still applicable moves, but they won't KO anyways.

It's the point where one learns that they can Smash DI out of the dsmash everytime, and never die from it. The point where they learn to predict Usmash attempts, and just airdodge appropriately. They realize that the Usmash has no horizontal hitbox, so they just use their aerial momentum to avoid any Usmash hits, and punish you in the process since the move is laggy enough afterwords. And yet another KO move is nullified.

It's the point where they realize how long it actually takes to laser and gyro, and how they could just wait for your start up animation and block/powershield/dodge/catch whatever you try to get them with.

You're left with an Fsmash/uthrow to KO, both of which have extreme limitations.

And that's what I mean by ceilings. Moves like fsmash/uthrow/fair/uair have no ceilings. Some can be hard to land, or can't KO very well, but that just makes them hard. Other moves, like the Usmash/Nair have ceilings. As in, once they figure out what to do against them, they become useless. They can only be used in the event that your opponent makes his own mistakes, you are not in control. How do you deal with someone who watches for Nair start up and knows how to punish everytime? That's a move with a ceiling since there is no answer to that question.

Now it isn't easy to take advantage of all this. I have only seen a few players who can. But it's a ceiling that's there. It's a high enough one that allows us to succeed for the time being.

Now, ROB's huge body, his poor aerial mobility, and his punishable up B just make it hard to play as him, but I don't define that as a ceiling. That's all fine with me, I don't mind working hard.

The rest of what I said though, is an example of what I mean by ceiling. And no matter how hard you work, you will not make his nair/bair faster, his usmash more useful, or his dsmash less "DIable". There is nothing you can do to change things like that. And these unchangeable things are numerous in ROB. I'm sure I'm missing some more moves in my description for why ROB has a "ceiling".

I mean, In melee, Samus had 1 ceiling move, her terrible roll. And even that 1 ceiling move made her seem almost non tournament viable. Everything else about her was just hard, and I could deal with that. But ROB, he's got a whole plethora of "ceiling" moves, and I thought most of you would be able to see that.

 

[stingers]

You say all that without realizing all of the applications that each of those moves have. If you get a throw, you can force a nair by reading their airdodge. If they dont airdodge, then you get to go up and hit them anyway. It's just a big guessing game, no different then many other characters with killing problems. Usmash is still a good killer on platformed stages and nothing will change that. Usmash was hardly ever useful on places like FD anyway, nothing new there. Dsmash is never to be used as a killing move, only as a punisher. The fact you can Smash DI out of it means that it's less useful, sure, which is why most ROBs stick to Dtilt these days. Laser and Gyro are just as predictable as Falcos Laser or

Everything you're saying can be applied to other characters as well. Every character has a "Definite Ceiling" if you play perfectly. Assuming that, you're left with Pit as the only tournament viable character. I made a topic about Perfect Play once on the General Brawl Discussion and this was the final result. You can't say things like Nair and Bair will eventually be rendered useless because you're assuming you're blindly approaching with them instead of setting them up. Blindly approaching with moves like Nair and Bair was a useless strategy in the first place and that doesn't matter.

The points you're talking about would make Melee Samus just as much of a "Ceiling Character as ROB is." What about when your opponent powershields all your Missiles and Charge Shots, Smash DIs out of your Fair and Up-B every time, and stops running into your Fsmashes and powershields your Sex Kicks? Well ****, Samus doesn't sound so good anymore either.

 

[HugS™]

You say all that without realizing all of the applications that each of those moves have. If you get a throw, you can force a nair by reading their airdodge. If they dont airdodge, then you get to go up and hit them anyway. It's just a big guessing game, no different then many other characters with killing problems. Usmash is still a good killer on platformed stages and nothing will change that. Usmash was hardly ever useful on places like FD anyway, nothing new there. Dsmash is never to be used as a killing move, only as a punisher. The fact you can Smash DI out of it means that it's less useful, sure, which is why most ROBs stick to Dtilt these days. Laser and Gyro are just as predictable as Falcos Laser or

Everything you're saying can be applied to other characters as well. Every character has a "Definite Ceiling" if you play perfectly. Assuming that, you're left with Pit as the only tournament viable character. I made a topic about Perfect Play once on the General Brawl Discussion and this was the final result. You can't say things like Nair and Bair will eventually be rendered useless because you're assuming you're blindly approaching with them instead of setting them up. Blindly approaching with moves like Nair and Bair was a useless strategy in the first place and that doesn't matter.

The points you're talking about would make Melee Samus just as much of a "Ceiling Character as ROB is." What about when your opponent powershields all your Missiles and Charge Shots, Smash DIs out of your Fair and Up-B every time, and stops running into your Fsmashes and powershields your Sex Kicks? Well ****, Samus doesn't sound so good anymore either.

I'll start with your last points and go to your first. There's a significant difference in difficulty regarding powershielding 1 ROB laser/Gyro in Brawl that takes a good 3 seconds to reshoot than powershielding Samus missiles/charge shots in Melee. You can Smash DI out of fairs and Bairs in Melee, but there's enough stun and fast falling speed to either use the Fair to combo after they DI out, or to escape your UP B miss unpunished. You're points are all valid, and theoretically all characters have ceilings, but my explanation in the difficulty of this all implies a very high ceiling for Samus in melee, much higher than ROB has in this game. I think that should answer your second point as well. Theoretically you could power shield all 3 hits of MK fairs, and there's nothing MK could do about it...but it is significantly harder to do so, giving him a much higher, more tournament viable, ceiling.

I didn't make any assumptions of blindly approaching with moves. I do agree with the waiting for an Airdodge technique, but that only really works on characters that can't employ a second jump to avoid it. I do it on falco/snake/DDD all the time, but the smart ones realize that they could just jump away and land safely elsewhere, so there goes that approach on players that know what to do. You see how this has less to do with you as a player, and more to do with your opponent's inabilities to deal with you? You are not in control, there's always an answer, and these answers are never all that difficult to execute.

I don't even understand the comparison between a Falco laser and a ROB laser. I'll just let you think about what you said regarding that. If you still want my explanation on the difference, then feel free to ask.

As for switching from Dsmash to Dtilt now a days, you're essentially saying that what was once considered one of ROB's best moves is now considered near useless, replaced by a move with far less knockback/damage. Sounds right to me. No disagreement here. But to be fair, it's easy to catch people off guard with a Dsmash sometimes, so it's probably the most difficult of ROB's "ceiling moves" to get around.

 

[lord karn]

Hugs posts are legit.

 

[Syde7]

Hugs posts are legit.

This

10Thatsandoneofthese

 

[stingers]

All I was saying with the laser was that both can be powershielded without much thought. They're used for different things, but they're the same at a basic level. AFAIK, the hitbox on ROBs laser only exists on the furthest point. Falco's laser's hitbox is only where the actual laser is. They both move the same speed, it's just a point of reaction. ROBs laser has more warning that it's coming, but you always know when a Falco might Laser anyway because they shorthop beforehand.

As far as using the second jump to get around baiting an airdodge, that just puts them higher in the air. ROBs trash aerial mobility kind of makes it a pain to chase, but you can't tell me it can't be done. Especially considering the range on Nair, it's actually not that bad when you consider that it takes up ROBs whole body (and then some).

 

[Gea]

Falco can spam lasers far more and empty shorthops exist. The startup animation for ROB is a pretty big ringer for what he's going to do. Falco can mix it up.

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, I don't really care about R.O.B. too much, I think the MK match-up is a definite ceiling for him, but anyways, I just wanted to point out that

A) Bair is a very viable move as a punisher for airdodges, especially hen complemented by his Fair. This doesn't really apply to MK though, as he should almost never airdodge.

B) You cannot perfect shield all three swipes of MK's sword. Shield drop takes too long, even with perfect shielding. I'm roughly 80% sure of this.

 

[Mister Eric]

Judge is good but I think I can beat him,

If I can almost beat him, I know you could.

 

[Darth Waffles]

If I can almost beat him, I know you could.

And if Hugs and I can take a stock off of M2K in a tournament, there's no reason why we can't get the other two.

 

[JayBee]

I actually lost to a Sonic today, I'm actually not angry though, more inspired.

I trash talked the hell out of Sonic after I destroyed Malcom's Sonic at Apex, and since all I heard was that Malcom's Sonic is amazing, and shows Sonic's potential bla bla bla lol. So today I MM'd Wes' Sonic (the old Samus main from Melee), and I just barely lost each match. He played really well, and I even got to see a couple neat techniques that I didn't know Sonic could do.

No johns though, Sonic is still terrible lol.

I'll try to get the match up tomorrow (Sunday). I know I could have played better, DI'd a little better, etc. But no matter what options I tried there was nothing I could do.

i'm sorry to hear about all of this chibo. it sucks when a non meta player gives up on thier main because of MK. i dont wanna have to say it, because i hate him, but you are probably gonna have to at least secondary MK, until he's banned. that's just the way it is.

You should pick up Sonic IMO. he's very very technical, so that suits your style very well. but not terrible. he's mid tier son. and like you said yourself, knowing the ROB matchup is uncommon in brawl today. give malcolm some credit, because he clearly didn't know.

 

[etecoon]

I'm tired of top players who are for the ban who hate MK go as far as to counterpick him to win (Happened today with Wes).

if you believe that he is the only viable option and ban worthy then why would you not want to see this? if the only way to beat MK is to play MK then doing just that provides nice anecdotal evidence to support that claim. just my perspective, if I wanted a character banned I'd definitely be playing them and trying to prove that they deserved it

 

[stingers]

get off my board eti

 

[Darth Waffles]

if you believe that he is the only viable option and ban worthy then why would you not want to see this? if the only way to beat MK is to play MK then doing just that provides nice anecdotal evidence to support that claim. just my perspective, if I wanted a character banned I'd definitely be playing them and trying to prove that they deserved it

Yeah... except that didn't exactly work out too well with OverSwarm. Not only did he not get MK banned after launching a tirade about it but he's still not winning major tournaments over people who he wasn't beating before

 

[salaboB]

Hey, would you look at that. @.@

It sounds like I was right. And Hugs, Chibo, and all the other naysayers were absolutely wrong. Learn the game before you count your character out for the count, please.

And Chibo, don't insult NC anymore.

So you say ROB can handle MK. That's great, really it is. You list all these great people who beat some of the best using MK, so they must be excellent with ROB.

So why isn't he showing up at the top of big tournaments?

End results > single samples.

 

[stingers]

Holy, the best ROB, IS winning tournaments. Well, when Ally isn't there Holy being the 2nd best in all of Canada proves something, does it not? It means we Americans need to step our game up.

I look forward to HERB2, the biggest NC tournament in a long long time. I'll be able to prove what ROBs made of there myself, since I can't really go OoS D:

 

[HugS™]

LoL we Americans need to step our game up? He's 2nd usually in Canada, this is the United States.

It's already been proven that Holy places below the top 10 in the big US tournaments, with an impressive 13th @ apex, but a less than stellar 33rd @ COT4.

Once again you seem to be ill informed.

 

[stingers]

You're right Hugs, I didn't memorize Holy's past tournament placings. Sorry @.@

 

[CT Chia]

Hugs is the best imo

Holy does do great in his region, and does nice here sometimes (the 13th at Apex was rly nice) but it also helps that hes auto seeded high because of his respective ranking in his region.

Holy sucks against Pit lol. Loosing to Smurf in a MM? ooooouuuuuccccchhhh

You should pick up Sonic IMO. he's very very technical, so that suits your style very well. but not terrible. he's mid tier son. and like you said yourself, knowing the ROB matchup is uncommon in brawl today. give malcolm some credit, because he clearly didn't know.

My first main was Sonic, he's by far my favorite character in the game. I'm kind of a Sonic freak lol. Overall though I felt more comfortable with ROB, and not to mention ROB is lightyears better lol. My Sonic def isn't bad though. People are surprised when I play him because they don't expect anything, but I know a lot about him. I was one of the first Sonic mains inventing some of today's ATs back when Brawl wasn't even out in the US yet.

 

[Syde7]

You're right Hugs, I didn't memorize Holy's past tournament placings. Sorry @.@

I don't think it was so much memorizing as the point was of interest to HugS, and so before accepting the statement as something similar to "fact" he checked up on it.

And, if it *is* from memory, then I assume its because HugS may consider himself equal to/above Holy, and would want to keep "tabs" on him in a way.

Both instances are perfectly acceptable; no different than doing your homework before a debate, or keeping up with a "rival" in sports.

Of course, I can't speak for him- just, more or less idle conjecture.

 

[stingers]

I realized both of those things before Dull, the point being that I obviously did not know Holy's US tournament placings and couldn't of factored them into what I was saying.

Who did Holy lose to at CoT4? I'd say that's a lot more important than his placing, at any rate.

 

[SuSa]

I realized both of those things before Dull, the point being that I obviously did not know Holy's US tournament placings and couldn't of factored them into what I was saying.

Who did Holy lose to at CoT4? I'd say that's a lot more important than his placing, as any rate.

I'm interested in this (and it is kind of important..)

I mean if he lost to M2K and Lain or something, I'd understand xD bracket screwed. lmao) /I know it wasn't M2K and Lain.. just saying)



Also didn't Holy start off a Sonic main as well?

 

[Darth Waffles]

I don't think he started off as a main but he decided to play sonic on the side awhile ago, at least at the beginning of the year, like how Ally played Falcon

 

[HolyNightmare]

Hugs is the best imo

Holy does do great in his region, and does nice here sometimes (the 13th at Apex was rly nice) but it also helps that hes auto seeded high because of his respective ranking in his region.

Holy sucks against Pit lol. Loosing to Smurf in a MM? ooooouuuuuccccchhhh

Nice lie, where did you get that one from?
Also Im not even auto seeded high, not to mention I would have placed way higher if I didnt have to play Ally in round 3.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

You ROB mains have nice discussions going on, why can't the other boards be this smart?

 

[ZOM~B]

My thoughts on MK vs ROB:

It's WINNABLE, ROB has the tools to counter Metaknight's approaches etc., but not it's not VIABLY WINNABLE. MK can't completely wall ROB, for every option MK makes, if ROB predicts it or reacts appropriately, the MK will come out behind.

But it works like this, MK selects from one of 5 approaches.

ROB selects from one of 5 "anti approaches"

4 of these "anti approaches" end in ROB getting hit, and 1 ends in MK getting hit. So if left to "chance", MK will be hit 20% of the time and ROB will be hit 80% of the time. And of course anyone who's played a decent MK knows about MKs edgeguarding game.

Anyway, MK is the only matchup I'm picking Snake up for really, I've never played a G&W to give me trouble in the ATL south.

 

[Deadweight]

I've never played a G&W to give me trouble in the ATL south.

Ive played against XYZ a couple of times, and i won each match =/
I know the match up realllllllllly well tho cause one of my friends mains him :3

 

[stingers]

GaW is just...Walk Back...Fsmash...repeat...Finish with Nair or Bair @.@

 

[Commander_Beef]

GaW is just...Walk Back...Fsmash...repeat...Finish with Nair or Bair @.@

Uhh...don't you mean neutral air or back air, then finish with forward smash? lol...
His game would suck so bad if that's how he should be playing stingys .

 

[stingers]

That's what WE do against GaW @.@

 

[Mag!c]

You ROB mains have nice discussions going on, why can't the other boards be this smart?

We're pretending to be smart. Our real discussions consist of RAMing another ROB in their USB port with our connector cable(s) [because one just isn't enough].

Humpa humpa humpa humpa.

 

[DDM]

We're pretending to be smart. Our real discussions consist of RAMing another ROB in their USB port with our connector cable(s) [because one just isn't enough].

Humpa humpa humpa humpa.

And if you think that's weird folks you should see what the Ness boards are up to.

 

[T0MMY]

It has to be done, I'm officially dropping ROB in the Meta Knight match up. It's impossible. We know it's the worst matchup

I disagree. I took Tyrant down to his last stock, I've taken rounds off DSF, and I beat all Meta Knights outside SoCal (That would be the rest of CA, NV, NorCal, OR, WA, and ID) in tournament matches. And, yes, I go R.O.B. 100%
Beeeesiiiiides... Mr. Game & Watch is a worse matchup :^p

I think what you mean to say is the advantage MK has on R.O.B. is impracticle to play when there are better options. And, hey, you're a competitive player, right? So why would you not play to win? Picking up a suitable counterpick for a matchup that is giving your opponent an advantage is commendable for a competitive player, but don't go saying it's impossible to win the matchup with R.O.B., it's "possible"... but just very very difficult. Don't discourage the other R.O.B. players saying it's impossible (sniffle)

When's the last time you saw a ROB win a noteable tourney? Probably like a year ago with Overswarm back when no one knew what the hell a ROB was and he was still top tier.

Overswarm won a notable tournament?
I still win notable tournaments, just not Nationals. And I've taken top placings in regionals. That's why I think it's possible and don't want to discourange anyone.


[/QUOTE]What is the point of spending money traveling to tourneys, paying money to enter tourneys, all to lose. With MK as a complete bracket stop for ROB, there is no sense in wasting money like this. Do or die.[/QUOTE]
Why did you enter your first tournament? Did you really think you were going to win a notable tournament when you were a noob with all your scrubby habits? I don't know about you, but I probably spend more money traveling than any other Smasher in this country and I don't make a lot of that back in my winnings ($500 cash prize split 60/30/10 could potentially be $50 for 3rd compared to a $150 ticket so taking top 3 in a tournament I travel 300 miles for is going to be a $100 loss). Why would I ever do such a stupid thing? OH YEAH, BECAUSE IT'S SO FUN AND I LOVE SEEING AND PLAYING WITH ALL THE WEST COAST SMASHERS. Life's short, money can't ever replace living a fun life.

Until MK is banned, there is no need to play ROB against him.

Try playing Pichu in pro brackets. LOL
You think anyone ever considered banning Fox? He makes Meta Knight look like a wimp. He was way faster, had attacks that hit on the first frame an KO'd at 0% plus combo'd into some of the strongest attacks... oh yeah, and his recovery was great.

Ban? YEAH RIGHT!
Now maybe it's because, in Melee, I had to deal with that kind of character with the lightest character in the game with the shortest ranged attacks that damaged himself with his own attacks... maybe that is warping my view on what a balanced game is. But really, whenever I even so much as sighed because the matchup was so tough I'd be told "Either play a better character or man up to your low-tier." So I stepped up my game. You win some, you lose some, but if you play the game to have fun, if you play a character you like playing, it doesn't matter if you're winning or losing. It's FUN. If you're not having fun being beat down by Meta Knights, nobody's forcing you to play R.O.B. Go for it, but remember the important thing is enjoying life and expressing yourself through this game. It's the intent of action that is living.

[/QUOTE]So by all means, start learning a better character, or you won't come out on top.[/QUOTE]
Could be said about every character, I suppose. Even Meta Knight.

 

[stingers]

oh yeah, and his recovery was great.

LOL

Maybe compared to Roy and Doc his recovery is great, but among tournament viable characters his recovery is pretty bad. It has good length, but it's stupidly easy to gimp. Maybe not for a Pichu main, but...

 

[T0MMY]

Nice lie, where did you get that one from?
Also Im not even auto seeded high, not to mention I would have placed way higher if I didnt have to play Ally in round 3.

Calm down, Holy. He added the "imo" at the end there. That means "in my opinion". Opinions are not lies, they're just opinions. You can ask him what his opinion is based off, but everyone is entitlted to what they think.

Although saying you took 13th place is about as applicable as HugS taking 17th at SiN. It's a matter of who you play, not what you place. If you face the person who takes 1st early in the bracket that means you're about on par with 1st place.

Just letting you know there are plenty of good players, if someone ever says any one of us isn't any good because we didn't take 1st place that's when you know you're an awesome player. If you were a bad player people wouldn't even be talking about you ;^)

<3 Canada. Rivalry =/= hate

 

[Deadweight]

@ T0mmy
Melee was so much more a game of tech skill rather than MU. Brawl lies so heavily on MU that a worse player can win simply cause the matchup is unwinnable. In Melee, a Pichu can beat a Shiek if the Pichu had more skill than the shiek =/.
In brawl ^isnt as much true imo.

This isn't a "Lets ban MK" thread.
It's a RoB vs MK is a nigh impossible fight that can only be won if the player skill ranges drastically or the MK SDs at 0%. A good MK should never lose to a good Rob. It's as simple as that. If the MK knows our blind spots, if he knows we have limited outs to tornado, if he knows our recovery is trash vs him, If he knows about spot dodge downsmash, if he knows about GT trixies. If he knows he can 3 stock us on RC or Brinstar.
We
Can't
Win

 

[stingers]

A good MK should never lose to a good Rob.

Assuming they're both equal in skill, no ****. He has the advantage. What's the problem there? It doesn't make the fight impossible, you just need to get better.

 

[Deadweight]

A good MK should never lose to a good Rob.

Assuming they're both equal in skill, no ****. He has the advantage. What's the problem there? It doesn't make the fight impossible, you just need to get better.

I beat G@W, fox, DDD, ZSS all the time. All the matches have similar ratios =/

Remember that ceiling thing Hugs was talking about before?
IMO there isnt enough room left to get better, to beat MK =/.
I honestly think My RoB is almost at the best it's ever going to get.
I do everything all the other top RoBs are doing and still get bracket blocked by Seibrik or Mero =/ It's not that they are nessicarially better than me (Seibrik is tho =/) but the match up is just dumb.
Its complete garbage.

 

[stingers]

Where to begin...I guess I'll just go line by line and try to tell you where you're off.

I beat G@W, fox, DDD, ZSS all the time. All the matches have similar ratios =/

Who are the notable GaW, Fox, and ZSS mains in Florida? I know Florida has 2 very good DDDs (Seibrik and CO18), but reading on apparently you lose to Seibrik so I'm not sure who you're talking about there either.

MK is probably 40:60. GaW is 45:55, Fox is 50:50, DDD is 50:50, and ZSS is probably closer to 30:70. None of those are equal to MK .

Remember that ceiling thing Hugs was talking about before?

The ceiling that is humanly impossible to reach? The ceiling that every character could theoretically reach?

Or, the ceiling that is defined only by your ability? The latter one is the only one you have to worry about. HugS was being a downer again with those first two, because like Chibo, he seems to blame Meta Knight for his problems instead of blaming himself for them. Which is fine, I guess. The matchup is not impossible. I promise.

IMO there isnt enough room left to get better, to beat MK =/.

Nobody can say that. Are you powerranked in Florida? Once your powerranked, it'll show that you're at least good enough that you can understand the matchup. Until then, I doubt it. It really seems like you're getting demoralized because you're getting trounced by people better and more experienced than you.

I honestly think My RoB is almost at the best it's ever going to get.

See above.

I do everything all the other top RoBs are doing and still get bracket blocked by Seibrik or Mero =/ It's not that they are nessicarially better than me (Seibrik is tho =/) but the match up is just dumb.

You're not doing everything the other top ROBs are doing, or else you'd be winning. Holy beat Afro, who IIRC is the best overall player in Florida (and if he's not, he's high up there). If you're not beating Afro, you're obviously not at Holy's level yet,. and you're not doing everything that you can be doing to win. Odds are, if you're saying things like "I do everything all the other top RoBs are doing", you don't really understand the game enough to complain. Study the matchups, practice and become more experienced before you say things like that.