Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[OmegaXis]

Thats why I hate the ****ing tier list right now. Its based 100% off of matchups and offline tournament results.

 

[Kinzer]

Why can't you people settle for an even class, why's it always gotta be better or worse?

Seriously, nobody but MK and Snake have their own class, if the difference is so minuscule you might at as well put them together.

P.S. Ness is much better than I had presumed, I'm still having trouble with this Ness player who recetly just got back into the community again.

P.S.S. He sent SK92 to losers, so he isn't a joke, and neither am I.

 

[_clinton]

What made you think Ness was bad? ^_^

Also...as far as Sheik goes...her DACUS is pretty sweet...almost makes you think she doesn't have one of the same issues Sonic has because of her grab release stuff she has...

She also has less horizontal range than Mario for her recovery...

 

[Kinzer]

I don't remember, I blame all the doses of PK thunder that rattled my brain/nerve system/whatever and caused me to forget why he was total garbage.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ok, we're kind of reaching the limit of characters Sonic is better than, so the purpose/name of this thread should be changed. Not to see how we're "better than" but rather "how we cope in comparison to"

 

[<π]

I haven't been following sonic crazy close. Have gotten opportunities to play high placing sonics. Over all I don't have trouble with the match up. Needles **** ground approaches, sheik ***** aerial ones. (I'm a sheik/pichu main)

If we are talking about character atributes sonic has a better ground speed. Better throw options, better recovery.

Sheik has way better tilts, (in speed and recovery). Better air game. spring is crazy good, but sheik's vertical movement speed and attack speed make her very deadly in the air. She has better kill options with ftilt usmash, nair, dsmash-> zelda combo is ****.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't think Sonic is better than Sheik. Close as HELL but I don't think he's better. Might be tied or a slight edge to one or the other.

 

[<π]

what are sonics big pros?

 

[Browny]

Hes blue
He has awesome shoes
Your speed is insufficient

Other than that...

One of the longest distance, most versatile and safest recoveries in the game. He has a lot of options off stage.
Great grab game with his very useful uthrow and very high DPS pummel rate
Can escape many bad positions easily via spinshot or spring, you cant pressure him well into one side of the stage without giving him options to simply jump right over you to reset the spacing.
Fastest running speed
A variety of cancellable approaches, he is almost never commited to any approach. he also has a few safe-on-block approaches which are quite spammable on some characters

those are probably his biggest pros (when compared to the rest of the cast's ability in respective areas)

 

[<π]

Thanks I over looked a lot of those.

 

[Chis]

Guys, talk about sheik >_>

Oh wait, someone has started.

Oh yeah, this thread is stopping at Zelda, cause I said so

 

[smashkng]

Sheik is better. She has more irregular matchups but Sonic most matchups are slight disadvantage while Sheik has some really good very few others really bad rest. Sheik can DACUS really far with his up smash and can transform into Zelda when it's time to kill. Sheik has faster overall attack speed and better priority.

 

[Browny]

I wonder if by the end of brawls lifetime, everyone will actually know what 'priority' is?
we got long ways to go yet

 

[Chis]

I wonder if by the end of brawls lifetime, everyone will actually know what 'priority' is?
we got long ways to go yet

How much the attack hit box is from the character's hurt box? Like sword users, Snake's tilts, Dedede's hammer etc. And that percentage rule thingy about clashes that I've forgotten

 

[<π]

What? no.

When two attacks connect the attack with the higher priority will cancel out the other. Attacks with similar priority will cancel each other out or trade hits; connect with each other.

Swords, hammers, etc. are disjointed hitboxes. normally they have high priority, but they don't always beat out every attack. The big pro behind these is the hit box isn't connected to your character so you don't have to worry about trading hits or being beat since if spaces properly your character won't me hit.

 

[Chis]

No, I'm actually correct. And this is what I was looking for.

With grounded moves, the priority system works like this:
- If two attacks deal within 10% of each other, they will clang and both attacks will cancel
- If one attack deals more than 10% than the other attack, the weaker move will get cancelled, and the stronger move will continue on.

With aerial moves, it tends to work more like this:
- If one "attack box" overlaps the opponent's "hurt box" first, it will win.
- If both characters' attacks reach each others' 'hurtboxes' at the same time, they will trade hits.
- Aerial [A] attacks will never clang or cancel.
- - - Special states (some special attacks, MK's glide attack, destructible projectiles) follow the 10% rule, except instead of 'stopping', their damage/attack box will get neutralized. So if you attack Snake's mortar with something that deals within 10% of its damage, you can break through it. If you F-air into MK's glide attack, the first hit will neutralize the glide attack and the followup hits will hit MK.

So in general, 'aerial priority' is about having your attack out first, or hitting behind your opponent's attack.

Many of Sonic's attacks are multiple-hit and each hit deals small amounts of damage. This makes it relatively easier for some characters to completely defeat Sonic's moves with their grounded moves. Most ground moves, however, are still within his ability to 'neutralize'. Aerially, his U-air is disjointed (its attack box extends past his hurtbox/graphics), so he can reach through some characters' attacks. But for the most part, his hitboxes are very close to his attackboxes so he tends to be hit out of his moves alot easier.

 

[GwJ]

everyone in the entire brawl cast is better than sonic

until that character is actually played in a real tournament

True that.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sheik can DACUS really far with his up smash and can transform into Zelda when it's time to kill.

DACUS really far with his up smash

far with his up smash

his up smash

his

O_o

You play Sheik and still this mistake? FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Chis]

O_o

You play Sheik and still this mistake? FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU

I thought you were Tenki for a second

Perhaps someone should post a link in the sheik boards? Thanks.

 

[Kinzer]

You're too slow Chis, Doc took care of that quite a while ago.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lmao at you still calling me Doc.
I might keep this name.

 

[Browny]

either way, sheik does not have high priority in general. outside of chain and needles, she is in the exact same league as the majority of characters in brawl which will lose to sword users and snakes tilts. I know for a fact sonic has a few disjoints on his attacks so im inclined to say his priority in general is better, its up to sheik mains to prove otherwise.

but of course they wont, and will tell me im wrong, and that snakes utilt isnt a disjoint, it just has a priority value of over 9000

 

[smashkng]

either way, sheik does not have high priority in general. outside of chain and needles, she is in the exact same league as the majority of characters in brawl which will lose to sword users and snakes tilts. I know for a fact sonic has a few disjoints on his attacks so im inclined to say his priority in general is better, its up to sheik mains to prove otherwise.

but of course they wont, and will tell me im wrong, and that snakes utilt isnt a disjoint, it just has a priority value of over 9000

Everyone say Sonic has the lowest priority overall along Captain Falcon, but no-one say Sheik has low priority.

 

[<π]

sheiks priority isn't bad at all. Nair and bair have very good priorty. all of her ground moves have decent priority as well.

 

[Chis]

Everyone say Sonic has the lowest priority overall along Captain Falcon, but no-one say Sheik has low priority.

I'm afriad to say that you do not know what you're are talking about. DJbrowny is correct.

 

[Umby]

Everyone say Sonic has the lowest priority overall along Captain Falcon, but no-one say Sheik has low priority.

I agree with this intelligent man.

 

[Kinzer]

Priority is one thing.

Range is something in all on its own league.

Where does Sheik stand in terms of "range." You can do over 9,000 damage in one attack, but it does no good when it's range is literally one pixel. What I just described in the most extreme matter is priority minus the piss poor range that came with the move.

DJ is correct, but he just didn't know how to word ti correctly.

Also get rid of that stereotypical "Sonic has no priority" garbage outta here!

 

[Browny]

sheiks priority isn't bad at all. Nair and bair have very good priorty. all of her ground moves have decent priority as well.

'Priority' does not have a value. I hope you understand that.

If you were to put a value on it to simplify understanding, imagine it like this

metaknight/laser priority = 3
sword/hammer/aura/snake/G&W/magic/fire priority = 2
Everything else priority = 1

Sheik does not have any magical invisible hitboxes on her attacks or a sword, her priority is just as bad as everyone elses when compared to the characters which have such traits. Most characters have multiple types within their moveset (marths dancing blade has laser priority as does lucarios fsmash tipper, mario and luigi have usmashes with massive invisible hitboxes). Also all nairs have a strange effect which cancels out many attacks, sheik is not unique.

Now Sonic can be considered as priority 1. however his usmash, utilt, uair, fsmash all have noticeable disjoints, effectively giving them priority 2. For the most part however, we can consider him to have 'low' priority.

So how about sheik? Which of her attacks have noticeable disjoints that will actually trade hits or even beat priority 2 attacks? I know her chain, jab and needles will. Theres a little more to it than simply saying 'sheik has good priority' because it IS quantifiable to an extent.

 

[Kataefi]

Priority really isn't an issue for Sheik in the slightest. The point of moves like jab, ftilt, fair, dsmash punishment etc... is to generally outspeed the moves that do outprioritise her.

But if you're interested, test the majority of her ground moveset against Marth's sword. I guarantee you'll get lots of clashes.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Lol, I swear, whenever I think I understand this ****, someone says something else.

 

[Browny]

@ Kataefi, you know falcons everything clashes with marths sword?

Allow me to demonstrate
Marth and snake both effectively have high priority attacks in their fsmash and utilt

No surpises here... they clank


But whats this?

Sonic has no priority lol!


Sheik and sonic both have equally bad priority. clashing vs a sword means nothing since most ground attacks do. whether you can beat them in the AIR is whats important. Can sheik reliably beat marth in the air? Sonic actually can with his uair. Obviously the speed of sheiks attacks is a great benefit and would make it seem like she has high priority but it is not the same thing. I know you understand that, that parts mainly for the other guys who didnt.

 

[Chis]

Well in the air it's range and what move comes out faster that matter. Marth has more range but Sheik's moves come out faster.

 

[smashkng]

Priority is a very important thing in Brawl, having low gives huge problems. Side smash is the only attack of Sonic with good priority, djbrowny, but it's slow and has bad range range. Stop saying Sheik lacks priority, Captain Falcon and Sonic are the only two with seriously low priority to give them huge problems so of course Sonic lacks priority, some jabs can cancel his attacks.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Priority is a very important thing in Brawl, having low gives huge problems. Side smash is the only attack of Sonic with good priority, djbrowny, but it's slow and has bad range range. Stop saying Sheik lacks priority, Captain Falcon and Sonic are the only two with seriously low priority to give them huge problems so of course Sonic lacks priority, some jabs can cancel his attacks.

Sheik does not really lack priority, she just hasn't got great priority. It doesn't matter much if you have real quick attacks.
And wow, get your bad range on Sonic F-smash outta here son. Learn about the hitbox (search Brownies thread), and no **** it has high priority? It's his strongest (as in most damaging) ground attack. AFAIK priority on the ground is the 10% rule. Hitboxes that clash without hitting hurtboxes and that are within 10% of each others damage (Sonic F-smash, 14% and Snake's U-tilt, 20% I think) clank. IF one overrides that 10%, you beat out the others attack (Sonics jab, Wario's F-smash). Although some things have weeeird priority (I've seen Falcons jab beat out crazy stuff)

But off the priority subject, how does Sheik cope with the tourney scene, with all the high tier chars?

 

[Chis]

...

smashkng, did you even read what DJ and I have been saying? You're making GameFaqs like assumptions without actually reading what we are saying. I'm NOT going to explain what priority is for like the 3rd time in this thread to you, so I suggest you read the posts before. Sonic and Sheik have the SAME priority. Priority is NOT a value. Sonic's Uair, Bair, forward smash and up smash have GOOD 'priority'. smashkng, DJ knows smash a lot more then you do so I recommend you listen to what he says.

 

[Jim Morrison]

...

smashkng, did you even read what DJ and I have been saying? You're making GameFaqs like assumptions without actually reading what we are saying. I'm NOT going to explain what priority is for like the 3rd time in this thread to you, so I suggest you read the posts before. Sonic and Sheik have the SAME priority. Priority is NOT a value. Sonic's Uair, Bair, forward smash and up smash have GOOD 'priority'. smashkng, DJ knows smash a lot more then you do so I recommend you listen to what he says.

Actually, I'd like to point out that U-smash isn't good priority at all. It has 7 weak hits, doing like 2%. Almost anything can clank/hit him out of it. Just stay out of it's range. Really, try anything against it with a Sonic U-smashing in front of you.

 

[smashkng]

DK use hands and still has a very huge priority.

 

[Browny]

Actually, I'd like to point out that U-smash isn't good priority at all. It has 7 weak hits, doing like 2%. Almost anything can clank/hit him out of it. Just stay out of it's range. Really, try anything against it with a Sonic U-smashing in front of you.

have ike fsmash Sonics usmash at max range, see what happens

The disjoint is enormous.

For beating out other ground attacks in a priority battle, sure its bad since it does low damage, but its a very unique attack. serves a different purpose to most usmashes. probably better used as an anti-aerial attack. and of course it omnomnoms landing lag frames when people airdodge into you

on that note, today i usmash spiked and KO'd a ZSS at about 10%. got a replay too

 

[~TBS~]

But off the priority subject, how does Sheik cope with the tourney scene, with all the high tier chars?

AFAIK, Sheiks do pretty well at tourneys. usually in the top 8 everytime i see the results. but, they are very, very rare. They are hard to come by, and that can hinder Sheik in the tourney scene.

 

[Jim Morrison]

DK use hands and still has a very huge priority.

No, he has big range.