Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[metaXzero]

And my reply would remain the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sheik vs Bowser the worst match-up in Melee because of the D-throw? Not saying it will be MUCH better without it, but still...

 

[Yuna]

Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash.

In what alternate reality? Or do you, by "much" mean "a fraction"?

As for Brawl, which doesn't have such an overused glitch

In what alternate universe?

you really need to put your mind to what you're doing.

Oh yeah, it's not about spacing and spamming safe moves at all!

I noticed this when I got off Brawl for a while and noticed right when i got on wifi that everybody's style changed and i could no longer read anyone's strategy.

This says a lot more about your abilities than the metagame. And of course you're going to surprised by a "new" strategy the first time you see it. But if you hang around long enough, you'll adapt... if you're any good.

But, as i said before, both games are good. How bout we just put this whole thing aside and play both?

No, they're not. But that's highly subjective and has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. This is not a thread about which game is better, this is a thread about which game is more balanced. We could care less which game you favor more or which game you know less about (probably Melee).

 

[da K.I.D.]

in my mind, shieks f airis th reason she ***** so much, its pretty much as broken as marths f air, the only difference is that shieks has less range, and marths doesnt kill

@yuna both games are very good, take your head out of your bum for two seconds please?

 

[Yuna]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sheik vs Bowser the worst match-up in Melee because of the D-throw? Not saying it will be MUCH better without it, but still...

I'm sorry, what part of the following does not apply to Sheik vs. Bowser?

"[Sheik's dthrow] is the reason why she utterly ***** [Low Tier]. But even without it, the Low Tiers still suck and they still get ***** (only to a much lesser extent) by Sheik."

@yuna both games are very good, take your head out of your bum for two seconds please?

What part of "It's highly subjective" was too confusing for you?

You can think Brawl is "very good" all you want. I do not share that view.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@yuna both games are very good, take your head out of your bum for two seconds please?

Why do you still post foolishly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

melee and brawl are both very good games.

No, they're not.

What part of "It's highly subjective" was too confusing for you?

You can think Brawl is "very good" all you want. I do not share that view.

i think the part that confused me was where you say that its subjective, yet you state your own view as if its fact...

@SL
i could very well ask you the same question

 

[otg]

In Brawl, speed doesn't matter as much as it does in Melee. This is mainly because as opposed to melee being a ground-based game, Brawl is actually more of a 'mid-air' based game.

*facepalm/leaves thread*

I will only say this one more time:

PEOPLE WHO DID NOT PLAY MELEE COMPETITIVELY STFU, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

[Yuna]

i think the part that confused me was where you say that its subjective, yet you state your own view as if its fact...

Which is perplexing to me since "But that's highly subjective" came after I stated my opinion. He stated "Brawl and Melee are both good games" (sic), I dissented, then you stated the same yourself. So either you're claiming all three of us stated our opinions as if they were facts or we simply stated our opinions.

So either you're guilty as well or you're a hypocrite. Pick your poison. At least I didn't talk down on you for thinking Brawl is a (very) good game, something you did to me because I stated that (IMO), Brawl isn't a "very good" game (for all you know, what I was objecting to could just be the "very").

So not only are you a possible hypocrite, you think anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Good show!

*facepalm/leaves thread*

I will only say this one more time:

PEOPLE WHO DID NOT PLAY MELEE COMPETITIVELY STFU, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Yeah, I want to see these magical characters who in Melee apparently relied mostly or entirely on their ground moves!

 

[Masmasher@]

This can REALLY go on forever and I don't have the time to keep going back if someone replies to my comment so just message me if you disagree or somethng alright. I think Brawl is more balanced than Melee. Either way, I think both games are amazing and offer more than MANY other games on the xbox or ps3, freal. Both games make you think much faster and smarter than games like gears of war or halo 3...trust me as I have all of them and I always come back to brawl or melee if im looking for a game that really makes you think fast and hard. Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash. As for Brawl, which doesn't have such an overused glitch, you really need to put your mind to what you're doing. Now...a while back I was for Melee, but as many of you know, over the months brawl has uncovered many more techniques than it had before and the mindgames continue to change over time. I noticed this when I got off Brawl for a while and noticed right when i got on wifi that everybody's style changed and i could no longer read anyone's strategy. But, as i said before, both games are good. How bout we just put this whole thing aside and play both?

For those of you out there that think that this thread should be put aside
WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN IT lol.
I never understand people like this. They think in their mind that if a thread is bad to them its gonna infect the rest of the forums. really its like a tv show if you dont like it change the channel dont ***** and complain about how bad it is.
WAVEDASHING IS NOT A GLITCH. please nobody say this again....
The game does not revolve around it! its another useful strafe.
again i will restate that this topic is which game its more balanced so of course what you are GOING to hear is one side defending melee and the others defending brawl. Mostly all Ive heard from the brawl side is responses like duh no its not, both games are, look deeper, theres moar characters and theres no wave dashing or lcanceling and very few combos i dont get punished as much so it must be more balanced. You guys are gonna have to do better than that.

Amazing ampharos you said on page 76 post 1130 that you can guarantee that more brawl people have played melee than more melee people have played brawl and im holding you to that. Do you have any evidence of this ridiculous claim.

 

[GofG]

Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash. As for Brawl, which doesn't have such an overused glitch, you really need to put your mind to what you're doing.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

AAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHASOPDFADFHHAPSORUAPQWEIFAPSOFGAWPSLFGAWPYUIFGWz
ASODFPAWFGOASL;DFGA;SYLDFGADFALHSDGHASGHJLASVHJASDFJHASDFGHJLASDFGJLKADFGASDGFUAHSLGJASKHASDFGAUSDKLAJSKDFGASHLDFUOIAGDJFHQWERYOQUOIRYQWOGHFJKSBNMASCHJQGKWHEFOIHAGSDJKFLQFEHKASGFAHWFIKQWVBFVIUODGJFASDBKFJ,HAGLSDCFKOGWKFAW


If tennis players had to play without rackets, would they really need to put their mind to what they were doing?

Except that that's a bad analogy, because MELEE IS NOT CENTERED AROUND WAVEDASHING. WAVEDASHING ISN'T EVEN VERY USEFUL. IT'S JUST A SPACING TECHNIQUE. SHORTHOPPING, L-CANCELING, FASTFALLING, SHIELDGRABBING, ETC ARE ALL INFINITELY MORE USEFUL.

LEAVE NOW AND NEVER COME BACK.

 

[Rave925]

I would have to say that I am most definitely staying here. I know ther's more to melee than just wavedashing, but I'm sure you know as well as I do that anyone who plays melee even a little seriously are going to use wavedashing.

 

[Pakman]

I would have to say that I am most definitely staying here. I know ther's more to melee than just wavedashing, but I'm sure you know as well as I do that anyone who plays melee even a little seriously are going to use wavedashing.

Anyone who wants to play brawl well is going to Glide toss. What is your point?

 

[ShadowLink84]

i think the part that confused me was where you say that its subjective, yet you state your own view as if its fact...

He was denying your claim about them being good games beause it was subjective. he himself was not introducing his opinion of the games.

@SL
i could very well ask you the same question

Really now? Proof?
Put up or shut up kid.

 

[Brinzy]

anyone who plays melee even a little seriously are going to use wavedashing.

Absolutely. No. Wavedashing. Spoilers:

Spoiler

The Link can defeat Ken.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*Stops studying finals for a second*

Are people really going for the "Brawl has no combos" and "Wavedashing is cheap" again?

@Yuna: Do you want me to dig up your last reply to me even if it was a week or so ago?

 

[Yuna]

I would have to say that I am most definitely staying here. I know ther's more to melee than just wavedashing, but I'm sure you know as well as I do that anyone who plays melee even a little seriously are going to use wavedashing.

Not really. There are several characters for which wavedashing is next to if not entirely useless.

Also, this is not what you said. What you did say was:
" Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash."

To which my reply is still:
"In what alternate universe?"

Also, I noticed how you totally ignored my scathing reply for reasons unknown. Because you had no way to refute my arguments, perhaps?

@Yuna: Do you want me to dig up your last reply to me even if it was a week or so ago?

Sure, if it's in any way relevant.

 

[TK Wolf]

(From 1-2 pages back)
One comment about DI in combos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that way i shoudl be defined is that if your opponent can DI such that you CANNOT follow up, it is not a combo. If your opponent can DI such that you need to react properly to hit him, it IS still a combo. In fact, it's an interactive combo, which I think is one of the things Melee has down better than any fighting game I know of. The attacker has the heavy advantage, but the defender can fight back by making it hard to continue the string.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is the brawl board, not the melee board. Expect brawl players. No one posting here defending their favorite game on a message board dedicated to that game has anything to be ashamed of. Why are you people who only care about melee even here? Brawl fans stay off the melee board as far as I know. For a game that sucks so much and is so imbalanced and is generally laughable in every way, you guys sure seem to feel an uncanny need to post here. I don't really care about personal attacks, but I really am bothered by the efforts to create an atmosphere of pessimism and further to discourage new players. A lot of the statements you guys make about brawl really suggest you don't know much about it; your statements about comboing with low tiers really goes against how low tier matchups go in brawl... So, really, enough of the "you don't know anything about melee!" arguments because you guys are not brawl experts here.

Anyway, about the time thing, I don't have any scientific evidence, but it's pretty obvious. I personally have logged thousands of hours on melee, and all the brawl players I know played melee for years before brawl came out. Most of the melee people I know hated brawl very soon after brawl came out and never played it all that much. There is just no way the melee people played more brawl than the brawl people played melee. I find it really hard to imagine that it's any other way just considering that brawl came out second if nothing else.

 

[Wafles]

They're about equally unballanced.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I think there are more Melee lovers posting Brawl hate on the Brawl boards than Melee lovers posting in the Melee boards.

=/

 

[Pakman]

(From 1-2 pages back)
One comment about DI in combos. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that way i shoudl be defined is that if your opponent can DI such that you CANNOT follow up, it is not a combo. If your opponent can DI such that you need to react properly to hit him, it IS still a combo. In fact, it's an interactive combo, which I think is one of the things Melee has down better than any fighting game I know of. The attacker has the heavy advantage, but the defender can fight back by making it hard to continue the string.

Well there are situations in Melee where DI could get you out of a combo but a lot of time the attacks are DI'ed incorrectly and allow for the attacker to get the next hit.

Another big part of the Melee "combo" system are missed techs, resets and tech chasing/predicting. I have seen Marth's up throw->grab->dthrow (missed tech) -> fsmash. Most players miss that tech. A technical fox can wave shine -> jab reset another fox. The shine can be teched but rarely is.

This is why a Melee "Combo" is different from a Brawl combo. Good players in Melee frequently get hits off of missed techs and bad DI. Melee punishes mistakes harder then Brawl.

I prefer the system that rewards smart DI/difficult techs and punishes bad DI/dumb techs more. I find that to be the balance of Melee. When you get hit, you lose momentum and are at a disadvantage until you can somehow get out of the attacker's offense. This is an important piece of the formula that all successful fighting games have adhered to for the most part. Brawl doesn't necessarily lack this attribute, but it definitely has less of a degree than Melee.

I think there are more Melee lovers posting Brawl hate on the Brawl boards than Melee lovers posting in the Melee boards.

=/

HOLY CRAP!

I didn't realize we were in the Brawl boards. I did a search for my name or got linked here or something because I rarely check the Brawl Boards.

But this is a true statement.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pakman play me in HD Remix boy.

I will HANDLE YOU SON!!!!

lololol.

 

[Flamingo]

But srsly. Brawl is better.

 

[Pakman]

Pakman play me in HD Remix boy.

I will HANDLE YOU SON!!!!

lololol.

You would. I am REALLY bad at any street fighter game that isn't 3rd strike. However, I am getting 4 :-p.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Get it so you, me, and WoZ can go to tournies. lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Pakman play me in HD Remix boy.

I will HANDLE YOU SON!!!!

lololol.

i will cosign to any claim this man makes about HD remix...

I think there are more Melee lovers posting Brawl hate on the Brawl boards than Melee lovers posting in the Melee boards.

=/

funny how that works isnt it.

They're about equally unballanced.

I agree.

He was denying your claim about them being good games beause it was subjective. he himself was not introducing his opinion of the games.

WTF son?

both games are good.

No, they're not..

are you serious shadowlink?
are you telling me that he is not putting forth his opinion on these games and pushing them as fact?
get that mess outta here.

 

[RDK]

I see Da KID is still ******** as ever.

2,000 worthless posts later and you still haven't learned anything? For shame.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i
are you serious shadowlink?
are you telling me that he is not putting forth his opinion on these games and pushing them as fact?
get that mess outta here.

yes I am serious.
He said no they're not as in, no they're not good games because them being good games is something subjective.

It seems unclear but becomes obvious consider he clarified later on by saying "no I am not putting my personal opinion into this."

So even if he did mispeak, it was clarified in the later sentence.
-_-;

This is why you annoy me, you speak before you think.

 

[Masmasher@]

This is the brawl board, not the melee board. Expect brawl players. No one posting here defending their favorite game on a message board dedicated to that game has anything to be ashamed of. Why are you people who only care about melee even here? Brawl fans stay off the melee board as far as I know. For a game that sucks so much and is so imbalanced and is generally laughable in every way, you guys sure seem to feel an uncanny need to post here. I don't really care about personal attacks, but I really am bothered by the efforts to create an atmosphere of pessimism and further to discourage new players. A lot of the statements you guys make about brawl really suggest you don't know much about it; your statements about comboing with low tiers really goes against how low tier matchups go in brawl... So, really, enough of the "you don't know anything about melee!" arguments because you guys are not brawl experts here.

Anyway, about the time thing, I don't have any scientific evidence, but it's pretty obvious. I personally have logged thousands of hours on melee, and all the brawl players I know played melee for years before brawl came out. Most of the melee people I know hated brawl very soon after brawl came out and never played it all that much. There is just no way the melee people played more brawl than the brawl people played melee. I find it really hard to imagine that it's any other way just considering that brawl came out second if nothing else.

Dont give us that well its on the brawl boards so melee people should stay away. there are a couple of things wrong with that.
1. I or anyone else can go where they want on these boards.
2. For christs sake this topic involves BOTH MELEE AND BRAWL WHAT THE **** do you expect! Its painfully obivious that the people who strictly play brawl dont know a thing about melee. NO INTELLEGENT discussion gets done. When you have people who strictly are brawl try to discuss melee you get things like this:
Wavedashing is a glitch
AT werent suppposed to be in the game
Lcancelling isnt all that important
Sheik vs bowser is worse than any matchup in brawl (I have enough knowledge to know that the d3 vs DK matchup is FAR, FAR worse)
fox is one of the heaviest characters in the game (I HAVE SEEN THIS)
falco has a destructive combo that 0 to deaths anyone and is a infinte
Mewtwo gets destroyed the worst by the ken/"death combo"

I can go on and on......but you get the idea.
3.Dont call us hypocrits ive read this discussion and only replied to things that i saw were a little shortsighted. This goes for all the other melee people who posted here. They all have humility and i havent seen any post where we have said anything where a large correction was needed. Who made a statement about comboing low tiers.

again you cant GUARANTEE that brawl people have played more melee then more melee people have played brawl.

To that end everytime someone brings up a topic that has melee and brawl in it the brawl people post their facts/opinion. Them not knowing about melee very well is shown in the fallacious facts very flawed. The melee people post trying to have a intellegent discussion. When the melee people throw the truths in your faces you guys pull out the discrimination of games card which consist of: why are you flaming us for liking brawl, you guys are just elitists, or: "I really am bothered by the efforts to create an atmosphere of pessimism and further to discourage new players".
NONE OF US ARE DOING THAT!
**** if this was in the melee forum then all yall brawlers would flock over to give your opinion. **** what forum its in cause it involves both sides.
lol at some of you people that thought this was gonna be easy to come in here and say yes! brawl is more balanced then melee and have you little section to cheer on in.
INTELLEGENT DEBATE PEOPLE.

 

[Deathcarter]

post

I completely agree. I try to use original arguments and conciseness in my posts. I am not that great at debating, but I try to put forth some effort and intelligence in my posts (well, recently at least, I did not do that great of a job some time earlier in the thread). On the other hand, most posters supporting Brawl make one short post with no evidence to back it up and don't even return to the thread. I applaud you for giving it straight to the Brawl side.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The King Dedede vs Donkey Kong matchup is a really bad example because it's WAY worse than every other matchup in brawl while Sheik v Bowser isn't that much different than Sheik v Ness or whatever. Even still, it's seriously far more playable than you seem to think. Donkey Kong is an actually good character! He probably has the advantage on King Dedede other than the grab thing, even at worst. The typical expectation of DK's performance before he gets grabbed is positive. How about Bowser's typical assessment against Sheik? Before she grabs him, is he expected to be winning or breaking even?

"Glitch" and "AT" don't really mean anything. We don't know what the developers were actually intending on anything, and we shouldn't really care. Why talk about that?

L-canceling is really not worth talking about. I just consider the l-cancel landing lag of aerials the default landing lag in melee... except for Mr. Game & Watch who is randomly screwed in melee of course.

People in both camps have no idea about physics. They think heavy things fall faster. It doesn't make any sense, but they think it. It's not unique to brawl players.

Anyway, melee players can go wherever they want I suppose, but why should they want to hang out on the board of such a bad game?

I think a lot of the melee people are blind to the faults of their own game. The brawl people being "ignorant" is a very unsubstantiated claim. For someone upset that certain things aren't being proven, why don't you provide some tournament evidence that Sheik v Bowser is anything but awful? Maybe a big tournament set where one of the top Sheiks loses to a Bowser or something. I suspect it never happened, but something like that would be evidence for your cause. You melee people have very poor tournament stats much unlike us (thanks Ankoku); the only actual data I've ever seen only had 9 characters even placing at all. A careful explanation of how the matchup goes would even be useful for comparison; I'm sure we could put together such things for any arbitrary brawl matchups and look at them side by side. Just saying we don't know anything is not evidence for anything; it's obvious to me that all of you don't know anything about brawl, but I try to explain the game regardless.

The statement that melee's combo system benefits low tiers has been made several times. That suggests that if there were more combos in brawl that it would benefit low tiers. That's obviously wrong; Ganon is not going to be able to combo much regardless, but more combos might help Meta Knight a lot. The fact that good prediction can generally get you out of trouble is a big help to low tiers in general; other than King Dedede v Donkey Kong which has a worrysome infinite, bad matchups just tend to be about having the enemy have superior options but not the ability to deprive you of options by trapping you in hugely damaging things. If you are better, you can just win the exchanges with the low tier inferior tools, but does skill ever help you escape a chaingrab or a true combo? I just don't buy that melee combos help low tiers at all; I know the fact that I can still escape pressure as the bad characters is one of the most helpful things in the game when I play them in brawl.

This isn't a discrimination of games card; it's a double standard card. Brawl players who aren't top level tournament players in melee shouldn't post. Melee players who played brawl for maybe a month can post whatever they want. How is that fair? Melee players consistently show nothing but a very bleak outlook about brawl and never miss a chance to call it inferior; if that isn't pessimism and a discouragement to new players, what is?

I obviously can't guarantee something about how much time on average has been spent by either group. However, I can say that a significant number of brawl players bought melee several years before brawl came out (we can make a poll if you really are that bothered). Do you presume they did as such and didn't play it? The fact that melee came out first suggests that people who prefer either game probably played it a lot; it's pretty obvious. Do you have any evidence that melee players spent more time on brawl? Can you find more than a few melee people who spent 6 months or more being very serious about brawl and now play melee? There isn't particularly direct evidence either way, but the sequence of game releases suggests a high liklihood of what I'm claiming. It seems like the burden of proof should be on you.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dont give us that well its on the brawl boards so melee people should stay away. there are a couple of things wrong with that.
1. I or anyone else can go where they want on these boards.
2. For christs sake this topic involves BOTH MELEE AND BRAWL WHAT THE **** do you expect! Its painfully obivious that the people who strictly play brawl dont know a thing about melee. NO INTELLEGENT discussion gets done. When you have people who strictly are brawl try to discuss melee you get things like this:
Wavedashing is a glitch
AT werent suppposed to be in the game
Lcancelling isnt all that important
Sheik vs bowser is worse than any matchup in brawl (I have enough knowledge to know that the d3 vs DK matchup is FAR, FAR worse)
fox is one of the heaviest characters in the game (I HAVE SEEN THIS)
falco has a destructive combo that 0 to deaths anyone and is a infinte
Mewtwo gets destroyed the worst by the ken/"death combo"

I can go on and on......but you get the idea.
3.Dont call us hypocrits ive read this discussion and only replied to things that i saw were a little shortsighted. This goes for all the other melee people who posted here. They all have humility and i havent seen any post where we have seen anything where a large correction was needed. Who made a statement about comboing low tiers.

again you cant GUARANTEE that brawl people have played more melee then more melee people have played brawl.

To that end everytime someone brings up a topic that has melee and brawl in it the brawl people post their facts/opinion. Them not knowing about melee very well is shown in the fallacious facts very flawed. The melee people post trying to have a intellegent discussion. When the melee people throw the truths in your faces you guys pull out the discrimination of games card which consist of: why are you flaming us for liking brawl, you guys are just elitists, or: "I really am bothered by the efforts to create an atmosphere of pessimism and further to discourage new players".
NONE OF US ARE DOING THAT!
**** if this was in the melee forum then all yall brawlers would flock over to give your opinion. **** what forum its in cause it involves both sides.
lol at some of you people that thought this was gonna be easy to come in here and say yes! brawl is more balanced then melee and have you little section to cheer on in.
INTELLEGENT DEBATE PEOPLE.

It would be nice if you actually posted what I sayed afterwards, you know, the part about my admitting I typoed/misposted.

That "Death combo" at the old place I went to Melee tournaments. I never heard of Ken there nor have I heard the combo was coined by him, or someone else, and people around called it a "Death combo"

stop acting all hyper about this.

See, when I tell you you said something, you should go back and double-check to make sure you didn't say it. Because I certainly do not have a habit of making up what people said.

I'll keep this in mind next time, my bad.

And you'd still be wrong.

1) Melee Sheik has a smaller grab-range than D3.
2) Power shielding in Melee did not remove shieldstun, as opposed to Brawl where you can just perfect shield to negate moves that are only barely safe on block.
3) Melee had, you know, blockstun. In Brawl, if someone blocks your move, you're screwed most of the time.
4) Bowser had plenty of moves which were plenty safe (safe enough to not get grabbed, anyway) by Sheik.
5) Bowser had actual combos, shield-pressure and approach in Melee (not that he was very good at it) as opposed to Donkey Kong who has none of that, plus, Sheik's Needle camping, not as good as D3's Waddle Dee camping.
6) NTSC Melee Sheik's chaingrab on Bowser, not an infinite. 0-death? Sure. But it was a running chaingrab. This means that it did not work (0-death) from anywhere on any stage. Heck, at the right percentages, you could DI up onto platforms and tech, forcing Sheik to end the chaingrab pre-maturely with a Fair or something (or corse, at those percentages, a lot of the time, you will die from the fair). Sheik's Fair in Melee doesn't necessarily kill Bowser with the correct DI 'til the 150%'s unless you're near the edge when you get Faired (and you have, like, 125%-ish already).

What does Donkey Kong have? Nothing. What does D3 have? Perfect shielding any move into a dashgrab into an infinite into death. Trust me, the NTSC Melee Sheik vs. Bowser match-up has nothing on the Donkey Kong vs. DeDeDe match-up.

I'll conceed to this.

As opposed to the Brawl bottom tiers who never get 80-20:ed, 90:10ed or worse?

They get 8:2's or worse in some cases, Brawl Ganondorf vs Brawl Sheik for example, at this point looking at what limited match-up ratios we have

I'm sorry, this disagrees with anything I said when? I made a statement, one you had no need to reply to.

Link is consider bottom tier so the example at the time was fitting. Since Link moved up int he new tier list and I think he deserves to move up, I'll drop link for this example.

But what would it prove concerning game balance and whichever game is more balanced?! All it would prove would be that people got his tier placement wrong the first time around. Yay, who cares?! Pichu is still bottom tier. Link would just move up to another tier.

See above.

Of course he wouldn't be as bad as Pichu then! Why would we compare a Bottom Tier to a non-Bottom Tier?

Above x2

Yeah, come back to me when it's a reality.

So in 4-6 months. k.

Of course he wouldn't. Because he wouldn't be bottom tier.

Above x4

Wait, did you just claim that D3 vs. DK is 80-20?

One of the match-up threads had it listed as a 8-2, I think, it's has been taken down and I have conseeded this point.

If they are placing well played by several people and against the world's best players (not in local or smaller tournaments). And pray tell, which characters is this actually happening with? Or are you just randomly arguing hypothetical (irrelevant) scenarios again?

Sonic is an example of this, he is placing better in higher level tournaments. With or without Anther.

How many Sonics are even able to place Top 16 at major tournaments with high concentrations of skilled players?

Someone made a giant post about this in the Ranking list, I'll see if I can dig this up.

Why did we not see a "I was wrong" tacked on here? You admitted to being wrong several times in this thread, why not another admission here?

Very well, I was wrong.

We're making progress. For every post of yours, you seem to be conceeding at least two things. With this pace, we'll be done in a week's time.

Well, you did get me on two/three points from this post.

Of course we consider it. We analyze it. That's what people do when theorycrafting! And if our analysis states that it's just a freak accident or a really good player doing really well against less good players or whatever, well, that's our answer then.

Or in Sonic's case he's better than people originally thought.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

"Glitch" and "AT" don't really mean anything. We don't know what the developers were actually intending on anything, and we shouldn't really care. Why talk about that?

helps deveop the metagame. and some things like CC were in 64 and transitioned to melee then outright removed for brawl. if found they are made use of right? also wd added to the ability to space and avoid grabs and such.

The statement that melee's combo system benefits low tiers has been made several times. That suggests that if there were more combos in brawl that it would benefit low tiers. That's obviously wrong; Ganon is not going to be able to combo much regardless, but more combos might help Meta Knight a lot. The fact that good prediction can generally get you out of trouble is a big help to low tiers in general;

possible combo into one of ganons finishers that can KO quite early, in melee he could cg a bunch of characters as well.

better characters always benefit, thats what makes them better. but if lesser characters could combo more it could benefit them, cause then the better characters have to be more wary or they could end up dead off a lazy whiff. the combos in melee added to the punishment game that brawl is lacking in due to lowerd hitstun.

like snake, you get him for maybe 10-20% max cause he whiffed something in brawl. while Fox in melee if he whiffed he could be comboed till the cows come home.

good prediction can only go so far if your character has anyway around it. like G@W Bair wall, JP doesn't have many options to get past that brickwall even if you know its coming, other than running away.... and then guessing the next action hoping to be right and be able to get past that, but that goes both ways.

other than King Dedede v Donkey Kong which has a worrysome infinite, bad matchups just tend to be about having the enemy have superior options but not the ability to deprive you of options by trapping you in hugely damaging things. If you are better, you can just win the exchanges with the low tier inferior tools, but does skill ever help you escape a chaingrab or a true combo? I just don't buy that melee combos help low tiers at all; I know the fact that I can still escape pressure as the bad characters is one of the most helpful things in the game when I play them in brawl.

yes you can escape pressure, but what if you can't pressure back, or your way of pressure is very limited? in the case of say Zelda vs Olimar. its very difficult to pressure oli, but he can do it to Zelda very easily due to having more viable options than she does. since Zelda is forced to do the approaching and Oli can dance around dins

 

[1048576]

The point about combos being beneficial to low tiers is that they don't have to win the exchange as many times to win the fight. For example, let's say Melee A fights Melee B. Lets say B has an 80% chance of winning the exchange. For simplicity's sake, lets assume that when either character wins the exchange, they take off 1/2 of the opponent's health. (I know it's impossible. I'm just using it to illustrate a point)

The chance of A winning is 0.2*0.2 +0.8*0.2*0.2 +0.8*0.2*0.2 = 0.104

Lets say we do the same thing, but in Brawl, the exchange only knocks off 1/3 of the opponent's health (D3 dittos, except someone is only using one hand, IDK )

The chance of A winning now is 0.2*0.2*0.2 + 0.2*0.2*0.8*0.2 + 0.2*0.2*0.8*0.8*0.2 + 0.2*0.8*0.2*0.2+ 0.2*0.8*0.8*0.2*0.2 + 0.2*0.8*0.2*0.8*0.2 + 0.8*0.2*0.2*0.2 + 0.8*0.8*0.2*0.2*0.2 +0.8*0.2*0.8*0.2*0.2+0.8*0.2*0.2*0.8*0.2 = 0.05792 (Now you see why I used such small numbers)

That's why bad matchups are less bad in Melee, and why it's so important that we keep emphasizing that Melee low tiers tend to have long combos on Melee high tiers.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

like snake, you get him for maybe 10-20% max cause he whiffed something in brawl. while Fox in melee if he whiffed he could be comboed till the cows come home.

Does Lucario's or Pikachu's match-up against Snake not exist or something? If Snake screws up against those two he's taking more than 10-20%.

The point, in Brawl lower tiered characters can punish High tiered just like in Melee, combos aren't what they use.

 

[Masmasher@]

The King Dedede vs Donkey Kong matchup is a really bad example because it's WAY worse than every other matchup in brawl while Sheik v Bowser isn't that much different than Sheik v Ness or whatever. Even still, it's seriously far more playable than you seem to think. Donkey Kong is an actually good character! He probably has the advantage on King Dedede other than the grab thing, even at worst. The typical expectation of DK's performance before he gets grabbed is positive. How about Bowser's typical assessment against Sheik? Before she grabs him, is he expected to be winning or breaking even?

"Glitch" and "AT" don't really mean anything. We don't know what the developers were actually intending on anything, and we shouldn't really care. Why talk about that?

L-canceling is really not worth talking about. I just consider the l-cancel landing lag of aerials the default landing lag in melee... except for Mr. Game & Watch who is randomly screwed in melee of course.

People in both camps have no idea about physics. They think heavy things fall faster. It doesn't make any sense, but they think it. It's not unique to brawl players.

Anyway, melee players can go wherever they want I suppose, but why should they want to hang out on the board of such a bad game?

I think a lot of the melee people are blind to the faults of their own game. The brawl people being "ignorant" is a very unsubstantiated claim. For someone upset that certain things aren't being proven, why don't you provide some tournament evidence that Sheik v Bowser is anything but awful? Maybe a big tournament set where one of the top Sheiks loses to a Bowser or something. I suspect it never happened, but something like that would be evidence for your cause. You melee people have very poor tournament stats much unlike us (thanks Ankoku); the only actual data I've ever seen only had 9 characters even placing at all. A careful explanation of how the matchup goes would even be useful for comparison; I'm sure we could put together such things for any arbitrary brawl matchups and look at them side by side. Just saying we don't know anything is not evidence for anything; it's obvious to me that all of you don't know anything about brawl, but I try to explain the game regardless.

The statement that melee's combo system benefits low tiers has been made several times. That suggests that if there were more combos in brawl that it would benefit low tiers. That's obviously wrong; Ganon is not going to be able to combo much regardless, but more combos might help Meta Knight a lot. The fact that good prediction can generally get you out of trouble is a big help to low tiers in general; other than King Dedede v Donkey Kong which has a worrysome infinite, bad matchups just tend to be about having the enemy have superior options but not the ability to deprive you of options by trapping you in hugely damaging things. If you are better, you can just win the exchanges with the low tier inferior tools, but does skill ever help you escape a chaingrab or a true combo? I just don't buy that melee combos help low tiers at all; I know the fact that I can still escape pressure as the bad characters is one of the most helpful things in the game when I play them in brawl.

This isn't a discrimination of games card; it's a double standard card. Brawl players who aren't top level tournament players in melee shouldn't post. Melee players who played brawl for maybe a month can post whatever they want. How is that fair? Melee players consistently show nothing but a very bleak outlook about brawl and never miss a chance to call it inferior; if that isn't pessimism and a discouragement to new players, what is?

I obviously can't guarantee something about how much time on average has been spent by either group. However, I can say that a significant number of brawl players bought melee several years before brawl came out (we can make a poll if you really are that bothered). Do you presume they did as such and didn't play it? The fact that melee came out first suggests that people who prefer either game probably played it a lot; it's pretty obvious. Do you have any evidence that melee players spent more time on brawl? Can you find more than a few melee people who spent 6 months or more being very serious about brawl and now play melee? There isn't particularly direct evidence either way, but the sequence of game releases suggests a high liklihood of what I'm claiming. It seems like the burden of proof should be on you.

I answered you paragraph by paragraph

It doesnt matter if its a bad example thats still a worse matchup then sheik vs bowser and you shouldnt talk about sheik vs ness like you know the matchup. your side kept on saying that the brawl matchups are better then the melee ones. Im here to prove thats bovine manure. No bowser isnt supposed to be in a advantaged position at the start of the fight but he can fight.

YOUR SIDE keeps on bringing up the ATs as glitches and WE keep correcting you. Yes they do matter because they are extra options and they keep you from being predictable some that DK has to deal with against oh say d3.

lcanceling is worth talking about see above.
oh yeah **** game and watch

It may not be exclusive but the brawl side sure does voice their stupidity alot louder than the melee side as seen in this topic.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SHEIK VS BOWSER ISNT AWFUL. But unlike d3 vs dk you can at least fight back the melee system does well to adhere to that rule and sheiks grab is escapable. Its not as dry cut as d3 vs DK remember nuances of the game.
For jesus christ look at the tournament listings you can even look at the video section for tournament videos in melee to get results if you want them THAT BAD.

Well the combo system does benifit low tier characters or the fact that melee has legitimate hit stun. ITS MORE DAMAGE AND A REWARD FOR BEING OFFENSIVE . Ganondorf can combo lol what are you talking about. It keeps on being brought up because nobody on you side can refute it. You act like good prediction and playing smart is exclusive to this game. Another rubbish point brawl people keep bringing up. And for the last time you escape legitimate punishment cause the hitstun sucks NOT because of your own skill.

Im not talking about random A** threads where a melee person decides to troll and say something obsene cause they think they know brawl cause its simple. When I mean discrimination of games i mean for topics like this. The brawl side wants to debate with out a full deck. When the melee people prove them false and correct them. Your side looks dumb so you start saying that the melee people are flaming you for liking brawl and they are elistist. THIS IS how scars thread got closed. As for people that think and say brawl is inferior. THATS THEIR OPINION prove them otherwise

YOU MADE THE CLAIM OF KNOWING AND SAYING ITS GUARANTEE THAT MORE BRAWL PEOPLE PLAYED MORE MELEE THAN MELEE PEOPLE HAVE PLAYED BRAWL. The evidence falls ON YOU

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Question: Who are the best five players in the world, and who do they main?

M2K - MK
Azen - Lucario
NinjaLink - Diddy Kong (I know, you don't "main" Diddy Kong, but honestly, your probably the best Diddy)
???
???

 

[brinboy789]

Question: Who are the best five players in the world, and who do they main?

M2K - MK
Azen - Lucario
NinjaLink - Diddy Kong (I know, you don't "main" Diddy Kong, but honestly, your probably the best Diddy)
Ally - snake
hmm...boss? idk...

what i think

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic looks bad on paper. THe reason he is doing well is possibly because his potential lays outside of what goes down on paper. he has alot of mindgame potential but you can' put it on paper.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

what i think

It's weird that they are all different.