Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[da K.I.D.]

you can put it on paper, but its the kind of paper that is quick to get thrown out.

also best five players in the world

M2K MK
Azen- Everyone
DSF- Snake
Ally- Snake
number 5 is a huge toss up between a good amount of people

 

[CRASHiC]

M2K - MK
Azen - Everybody
NinjaLink - Diddy Kong
Ally - snake
Bwett- Yoshi (imo)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Does Lucario's or Pikachu's match-up against Snake not exist or something? If Snake screws up against those two he's taking more than 10-20%.

The point, in Brawl lower tiered characters can punish High tiered just like in Melee, combos aren't what they use.

its just an example i didn't take into account induvidual matchups.

 

[IrArby]

There is one thing you did not mention: pretty much everyone outside of MK, Snake, Marth, Falco, DDD, and G&W does not have that either. The high tier characters have very few guaruanteed stetups for additional damage and pretty much have to work for their damage as well. Besides, it is not overly difficult for the lower tiers to hit the higher tiers because the B, C, D, E tiers generally do not have brick walls impenetrable enough to shut down all of the low tiers options. Of course there are exceptions, but a winnable high v. low tier matchup in Brawl are generally common. Only the top 6 characters have many follow ups and brick walls which is why I feel everyone needs to understand how much they imbalance the game.

The more I think about it and the more I read on reasonable people opinions on matchups, the more I think the balance of the lower 31 characters is close to the balance of that of Street Fighter 4, about 0.6-0.8 times as balanced. The problem with trying to arguing this against Melee is that:

1. This is impossible to apply to the competetive aspect of Brawl since banning 6 characters is simply not feesible. Which is probably the hardest thing for people on this forum to realize since I am talking about the overall balance as opposed to the competetive balance.

2. Are not only the 31 remaining characters in Brawl very well balanced, but also is Melee that unbalanced to the point that Brawl can be considered more balanced than Melee after you factor in needing to take out 6 characters to achieve that balance?

Alright, I'm going to be lazy and not read all the posts that occured after this page because I'm really tired. Still, I don't think anyones bother to discredit this so I will do so now.

How does G&W not apply? Great priority is pretty much his whole game. Falco, also great priority, his own CG, can't be camped (has lasers) and edgeguards well with a relatviely good recovery. Marth? Need I even explain how he applies here? Big range, and disjointed hitbox, still a good edgeguarder.

Granted the characters farther down from there apply less to my qualifications. Concurrently, they are lower on the tier list which adds up with those ideal characteristics I listed.

 

[IrArby]

Does Lucario's or Pikachu's match-up against Snake not exist or something? If Snake screws up against those two he's taking more than 10-20%.

The point, in Brawl lower tiered characters can punish High tiered just like in Melee, combos aren't what they use.

What does 10, 20, or even 30% really lead to if by some strange and ultimately disadvantegous chance you get Snake offstage you can't properly edgeguard and KO him anyway? Damage percentage counts for less in this game since the best characters survive nearly anything but a wall/ceiling KO.

Sorry for the double post, I'm on somone's Mac Laptop and it doesn't have a right click so I'm clueless as how to Copy Paste right now.

 

[Deathcarter]

I answered you paragraph by paragraph

It doesnt matter if its a bad example thats still a worse matchup then sheik vs bowser and you shouldnt talk about sheik vs ness like you know the matchup. your side kept on saying that the brawl matchups are better then the melee ones. Im here to prove thats bovine manure. No bowser isnt supposed to be in a advantaged position at the start of the fight but he can fight.

YOUR SIDE keeps on bringing up the ATs as glitches and WE keep correcting you. Yes they do matter because they are extra options and they keep you from being predictable some that DK has to deal with against oh say d3.

lcanceling is worth talking about see above.
oh yeah **** game and watch

It may not be exclusive but the brawl side sure does voice their stupidity alot louder than the melee side as seen in this topic.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SHEIK VS BOWSER ISNT AWFUL. But unlike d3 vs dk you can at least fight back the melee system does well to adhere to that rule and sheiks grab is escapable. Its not as dry cut as d3 vs DK remember nuances of the game.
For jesus christ look at the tournament listings you can even look at the video section for tournament videos in melee to get results if you want them THAT BAD.

Well the combo system does benifit low tier characters or the fact that melee has legitimate hit stun. ITS MORE DAMAGE AND A REWARD FOR BEING OFFENSIVE . Ganondorf can combo lol what are you talking about. It keeps on being brought up because nobody on you side can refute it. You act like good prediction and playing smart is exclusive to this game. Another rubbish point brawl people keep bringing up. And for the last time you escape legitimate punishment cause the hitstun sucks NOT because of your own skill.

Im not talking about random A** threads where a melee person decides to troll and say something obsene cause they think they know brawl cause its simple. When I mean discrimination of games i mean for topics like this. The brawl side wants to debate with out a full deck. When the melee people prove them false and correct them. Your side looks dumb so you start saying that the melee people are flaming you for liking brawl and they are elistist. THIS IS how scars thread got closed. As for people that think and say brawl is inferior. THATS THEIR OPINION prove them otherwise

YOU MADE THE CLAIM OF KNOWING AND SAYING ITS GUARANTEE THAT MORE BRAWL PEOPLE PLAYED MORE MELEE THAN MELEE PEOPLE HAVE PLAYED BRAWL. The evidence falls ON YOU

I don't care if Bowser has options to continue punishment on Shiek. He has to land that hit FOUR times in a match assuming he can predict her DI everytime. Shiek however, only has to land a grab 4 times, which considering her top tierness, should be comparatively easier. Captain Falcon may have to hit MK 23 times(arbitrary number) to win, but MK has to hit Captain Falcon A LOT more than 4 times to beat him. MK may have strings, but his offensive options are not comparable to that of Shiek's in the Shiek v. Bowser matchup. DDD v DK is not a really a good example because it is a broken matchup. At least MK doesn't have one move that completely obliterates Falcon regardless of how good the Falcon player is. I'll explain more in my next paragraph.

To reply to this part of your post, Melee is a game that gives you more options for simply being in Melee. Brawl gives characters less options, but this applies to ALL of the characters, not just the low tiers. Remember, Melee and Brawl's roster balance can only be analyzed by how the roster does against its own members. It doesn't matter if Brawl low tiers have 1/5th the options the low tiers in Melee have because the same ratio applies to the Melee/Brawl top tiers as well. The problem with Brawl is not that the top tiers have very many more options, but that some of their options shut down ALL of those of the lower tiers. However, this applies mostly to the 6 worst characters in the game (which on a side note are not necessarily the bottom 6) who have just as much of a chance of winning as the bottom 4 in Melee.

Low hitstun does not inherently make Brawl more imbalanced by itself. It would only make Brawl less balanced if it disproportionally took away options from many characters but took less from the top tier characters. Hitstun in Brawl would actually make the game MORE imbalanced. The top tiers in Brawl would then be able to pull off incredibly long, damaging strings, while the low tiers would still have to contend with larger hitboxes, greater priority, greater recoveries, much greater damage imput, and generally many more Peach D-Smashes than the low tiers in Melee do. At least with a lack of hitstun, the top tiers also have to work harder and strategize more often to land their hits as well.

You may be right in Melee being more balanced than Brawl, but it would be because of the retarted **** inherent in the top tier's movesets shutting down the lower tier's movesets entirely as opposed to the number of options each character has as it is not very many (MK is the exception to this of course, but he does not have a retarted move on the league of Marth's fair, G&W's bair, etc. so he is not too much of an issue.)


Edit for IrArby: I posted that because I wanted to show how Brawl wasn't a"super-rediculously awful rainbow of imbalance" as none of the characters below the Sacred 6 systematically dominated everyone.

As it relates to the Brawl v. Melee argument, I realized (with insight from Yuna) that I would have to apply the same thing to Melee and basically removing the best characters in both of the respective games leads to a very similar level of decent balance. So in order to conclude the debate, I'd have to factor in how the Sacred 6/Elite 4-5 affect their game's balance instead of disregarding them as horrible outliers which basically lead me back to square 1.

 

[IrArby]

@DeathCarter's latest post: The fact that there isn't hitstun means the game dissolves often into a matchup between which player can win more engagements through the things I outlined like range, priority, etc. They don't have the capability to win many engagements against an equally skilled opponent. They can't REALLY punish when they do win one two or three engagements. I think your vastly underestimating the importance of punishment in Melee. Its not just a combo, stage positioning means a sh*t ton in Melee (just ask Cactuar). Not so much in Brawl as recovering in every sense is made easier.

Also, I'm not positive about G&W's Bair but Marth's Fair is by no means broken as its severely less good compared to what it was in Melee both at the fault of the engine and by his purposeful nerfing. Either way, you just proved my point about characters with good range, and priority being very good in this game by listing those two chars/moves as really ridiculous ones.

 

[1048576]

Wow its like everyone ignored my post. Prolly 'cause I'm pro Melee

I explained how its easier for Bowser to best Sheik if they have to hit each other 10 times than it is for Falcon to beat MK if they have to hit each other 20 times, assuming both Bowser and CF have the same chance of landing a hit on their respective opponents as opposed to being hit. I used math. Numbers don't lie.

 

[TK Wolf]

To the comment about Lucario vs Snake. I don't know where you got the idea that Snake messing up will give him a lot of damage. Were you thinking about Lucario's side-B semi-chaingrab? The move can be escaped under 25% and doesn't combo after Snake is at 50-ish %, he can drop a nade to force Luc to stop. So.... Luc won't get much. It's not uncommon for Luc to get 20% off a punish, but given Snakes insane recovery, Luc needs to deal 1.5 times as much damage before getting him into killing range. So whatever damage he does is worth significantly less.

 

[Yuna]

They get 8:2's or worse in some cases, Brawl Ganondorf vs Brawl Sheik for example, at this point looking at what limited match-up ratios we have

Yes, but is this so much different from Melee?

Link is consider bottom tier so the example at the time was fitting. Since Link moved up int he new tier list and I think he deserves to move up, I'll drop link for this example.

And I maintain that I knew all along that Link wasn't supposed to be there and that all that really changed was our perception of his tier placement. He was never in bottom tier. We just thought he was.

Sonic is an example of this, he is placing better in higher level tournaments. With or without Anther.

But we already know that he's got pretty OK match-ups with the Top and High Tiers, which explains why he's placing so well.

Or in Sonic's case he's better than people originally thought.

Yeah, because "originally" could date back as far as January of last year. But we'd known for a pretty long time that he's got the capability of not totally sucking, he's still not very good of a character due to still having quite a few disadvantageous match-ups... and Meta Knight.



This was a giant post of you apologizing for being wrong and then not being able to counter a single thing I'd previously said. Well, at least you conceded and I'll give you props for that.

 

[Masmasher@]

Wow its like everyone ignored my post. Prolly 'cause I'm pro Melee

I explained how its easier for Bowser to best Sheik if they have to hit each other 10 times than it is for Falcon to beat MK if they have to hit each other 20 times, assuming both Bowser and CF have the same chance of landing a hit on their respective opponents as opposed to being hit. I used math. Numbers don't lie.

lol i read your post and i thought it was brilliant . You conveyed the best way to explain why comboing helps low tiers i was trying to explain that to amazing ampharos and your way of explaining was more expressed and expansive.

@deathcarter: I know that some matchups in brawl are better than sheik vs bowser if you correlate them. Some people pages back said that bowser vs sheik was the worse matchup period, then tried to parallel it into well brawl is more balanced. I saw that as a lazy attempt and went to refute it quickly although my approach was a little limited I wanted the BS to stop.

More options doesnt directly equate to better balance but the do assist in eliminating becoming predictable. this opens up more strafes so that the low tier characters who already have a disadvantage against someone higher can at least be on a even footing when it comes to advanced manuvering. Theres too many character specific traits in brawl for instance what does metaknight have on DK. five jumps 4 viable b specials that can recover, a glide, all his moves auto cancel better, IDC and so on. Not all the advanced techniques would be needed in brawl but DD, lcancel and JC grabs would make things much smoother. The lack of alternate strafes alone does not make the argument that brawl is less balanced. Its when you couple it with a lack of hit stun and floatness that it shows a higher meaning. lol with no hitstun characters have to exchange hits. Some characters in brawl are already at a disadvantage of even getting the hits in with out being predictable and having their attempts nulified. then when they finally do get the hit theres no follow up just back to square one with their predictable moves and more frustration to get in another hit with very little reward and a high chance you wont win the exchange. Plus if a character can camp you it gets worse. MUCH WORSE Then it would be if you could have new ways/strafes to get that hit in and follow up on that deserved confirmed hit for a better reward. THIS is why proportionally/ or directly parallel the brawl matchups compared with the melee ones are MUCH, MUCH worse overall.

 

[G-Beast]

IDC shouldnt be a factor, it is banned.

 

[Masmasher@]

G-beast: I knew that. Thats just another factor that should be taken into account when determining balance. lol how much broken stuff do we have to ban to make the game playable for others. it was said a few pages back that boss who i think plays mario took forth at a tournament that had to ban the chain grab see how many overlooked design/engine problems brawl has to regulate so that it can become playable. Melee doesnt have such simple design/engine problems and is smoother.

 

[philbobjoe]

IDC shouldnt be a factor, it is banned.

Well if something had to be banned, why is that game more balanced?

 

[Panix]

Well if something had to be banned, why is that game more balanced?

They banned IDC because of it's stalling purpose really. not because it's uber ability to do massive amounts of dmg in a period of 10 seconds.

 

[CRASHiC]

G-beast: I knew that. Thats just another factor that should be taken into account when determining balance. lol how much broken stuff do we have to ban to make the game playable for others. it was said a few pages back that boss who i think plays mario took forth at a tournament that had to ban the chain grab see how many overlooked design/engine problems brawl has to regulate so that it can become playable. Melee doesnt have such simple design/engine problems and is smoother.

Is that why DK and GnW can shield in your game?

 

[Masmasher@]

Is that why DK and GnW can shield in your game?

Wow what does that have to do with anything with banning. Learn to toggle/angle your shield for one. 2. That statement he said is over exaggerated everyone’s shield gets circumvented at some point.

Side note I noticed you didn’t say anything when I asked how amazing ampharos statement rebutted anything I said in the statement that was in RESPONSE to his.

 

[Yuna]

Is that why DK and GnW can shield in your game?

As opposed to Brawl, where GnW can just turtle your shield to death?

 

[CRASHiC]

Wow what does that have to do with anything with banning. Learn to toggle/angle your shield for one. 2. That statement he said is over exaggerated everyone’s shield gets circumvented at some point.

Side note I noticed you didn’t say anything when I asked how amazing ampharos statement rebutted anything I said in the statement that was in RESPONSE to his.

I didn't see it. This is an overly active topic, not as
But I still feel that the very things you said where what he was tackling in his post.

 

[Masmasher@]

FOR CRASHIC

Originally Posted by Amazing Ampharos
If you have more time to punish, that means that aspect is slower. It's a simple thing. Several random things in brawl are faster than they are in melee. For instance, no one in melee covers ground like Sonic does. I thinks rolls in general are a bit faster in brawl, but I'm not completely sure. They're certainly way more useful if nothing else... The point is that it's not totally black and white even in terms of speed. Yeah, melee is overall faster, but it's not strictly faster.

L-canceling is one of the most ridiculous things that gets complained about. Aerials in brawl have less landing lag in general in general than the non-L-canceled versions did in melee. Do you notice how almost every up aerial has ridiculously little landing lag in brawl? Someone is going to say "look at Captain Falcon..." I'm sure despite him being a completely unfair example because Captain Falcon and Ganon just got screwed in brawl and are like basing everything about melee's speed on Bowser or Mewtwo, but if you actually look at the cast as a whole, landing lag is generally lower than the non-L-canceled melee landing lag. It's not quite as low as the L-canceled stuff, but it's seriously not that long. It's also true that you actually feel it with laggy moves like Link's down aerial; in the end, landing lag variation between moves is a bigger deal in brawl. However, is that a bad thing?

The L-canceling system also completely arbitrarily screwed over Mr. Game & Watch, and if that level of landing lag was good, why did you have to press a button to begin with? It's hard to deny that melee would have been strictly superior if it were the same game with landing lag always being the level of L-canceling even if you don't press L (or R or Z for those who want to be pedantic).

I'm frankly unconvinced that top vs bottom is any more extreme in brawl than it is in melee. Seriously, explain to me how melee Ness beats melee Sheik. Or try melee Bowser vs melee Sheik. The stock pretty much ends when Sheik lands a grab, and she's better than them in almost every way anyway so it's not like that's hard for her. Are you going to try to assert that the bad sides of those matchups can win unless the player is a lot better? At least brawl Captain Falcon can play with release grabs and runs fast and even has some pretty dangerous moves if he can get them in. He gets to play for real the entire time even; he has a very hard time because his moves are generally pretty poor and tricky to land, but he certainly gets lots of chances to try and even win if the player is better. The best versus the worst is pretty sucky in both games, but if I had to take the losing side in either game, I'd take it in brawl.

About tech chases, you also have Mr. Game & Watch's down throw and Diddy Kong's bananas that set up for it all the time. Tripping in general can lead to it even, and on stages like Luigi's Mansion it comes up pretty consistently. Tech chasing is a big deal in brawl for sure.

Mashing airdodge is a good way to lose in brawl by the way. You just get hit as the airdodge ends. Yeah, I can't deny that the defender has more options, but it's not like you go "oh well, I got hit". Getting hit is still what leads to you losing, and it still puts you in bad positions. Melee has a more offensive focus than brawl for sure, but the basic concepts between the two games are really not that different. You still do get punished in brawl. How do you think people lose in brawl? It's still about who leaves the opponent more opportunities and who capitalizes on the opportunities he gets better versus who mitigates the dangers of his mistakes the best. Just look at fighting Snake; I screw up at low percentage, get hit by his grenade, and then he catches me with jab1 -> ftilt1 -> ftilt2 as I try to recover from the positional consequences of being hit by the grenade. That's a lot of damage!

Also, here's a random fault in melee that brawl doesn't have to worry about. In melee, Donkey Kong and Mr. Game & Watch have horrible shields that barely protect them even when they are full and make it really easy to shieldstab them. In brawl, no one has shields that disproportionate to their body sizes. Why do people never bring stuff like that up when comparing the games? This isn't that big of a deal, but the point is that melee has random little irritating things in it too that were fixed in brawl.




Originally posted by me
I'm sorry but you dont get to turn around a fundamental aspect that was overlooked in brawl and say that that makes melee slower. ESPECIALLY one thats SUPPOSED to be in fighting games. ITS CALLED A FOLLOW UP TO A COMBO. I dont mean to sound this straightfoward but hes sonic. Of course his gonna be fast but that speed is hampered by small stages and the fact that with out JC grabs, dash dancing and a extended stop animation makes his tech chasing average at best. Then again this really has nothing to do with balance. Rolls are really useful because its all about being defensive, there less lag coming out of them (lucarios roll is stupid good) Annnnd you dont really have much other options for better ground manuvering. what im trying to say is that most of these points that "make brawl fast" are irrelevant outliers. explain the floatness of all characters. explain the lack of useful strafes for offensive and defensive gameplay.

L canceling deserves to be complained about. Lag is lag and l canceling helped to lessen that. Well brawls over all floatness comes into play and not that it matters much with oh wait another detrimental aspect of brawls engine, low hitstun. Oh side note complaining about captain falcon and ganondorf in brawl is not like complaining about mewtwo and bowser in melee at all. Captain falcon and ganondorf are screwed because they dont belong with that games engine. Mewtwo and bowser are generally just bad characters a title that befalls some characters in EVERY FIGHTING GAME.

SOOOOO you would rather fight d3 as dk then take on sheik as bowser lol. Also please...melee matchups are better. you know more stun, more strafes, this sort of thing.

lol l canceling is like learning how to do ivys calamity synphony or learning JF uppercuts with the mishimas. Its extra in the game but it helps in the long run if you learn to do it. its called learning to play on a advanced level/ wanting to be better.

Yes getting hit is bad but there should be a tide of push and pull/offense/defense situations that evolves from getting hit. Not just of i can do anything i want now. not being at a neutral postion the best display of defense/ offence at brawl only happens at the mid percents. Lower percents means you get hit and its like oh nothing happens and at higher you get to far knocked back fo them to do much of anything and you are still neutral. With lack of edgeguarding you wait for them to be back on the stage(airdodging) then you are neutral.
Unless you are meta knight edge guarding for this game is sub par at best.

Again these are random outliers for two charactersDk and game n watch . l2 power shield. Plus I think this is a little exagerated.

Again Me posting asking you whether or not you read it crashIC
Crashic: No i dont think you did fully. How does ANYTHING in his post refute my claim of bad hit stun. Or captain falcon and ganondorf being screwed by the physics engine. Or the high floatness actually being any bit of good . DESCRIBE in detail
Geez i really dont think you read anything of mine. HE even stated him self that aerials in brawl dont get canceled as fast as l canceled aerials in melee. I then proceeded to say that lag is lag and you want to l cancel to get your character to move faster. Like in every fighting game you learn the extra stuff to further enhance you self meta game. EVERY FIGHTING GAME HAS BAD CHARACTERS. but this is because they are generally bad characters. not because the engine screwed them over. cough Brawl cough Please tell me how anything in the first paragraph of his post had any relevance. I stated the edge guarding is bad and some character who need it cant do it as well in brawl as they could in melee. whens this gonna be refuted!
For christs sake his post was BEFORE MINE lol! not saying that things of the past cant effect the present but if his post had had ANY meaning to refute what i said then i wouldnt have posted i would have been idle and sat back


CASE IN POINT: I dont think you read it and if you did you didnt comprehend it correctly prove me otherwise


Also since I figure you probably skipped this. A reason why higher hit stun and more movement options lead to melee having better matchups:

By ME
More options doesnt directly equate to better balance but the do assist in eliminating becoming predictable. this opens up more strafes so that the low tier characters who already have a disadvantage against someone higher can at least be on a even footing when it comes to advanced manuvering. Theres too many character specific traits in brawl for instance what does metaknight have on DK. five jumps 4 viable b specials that can recover, a glide, all his moves auto cancel better, IDC and so on. Not all the advanced techniques would be needed in brawl but DD, lcancel and JC grabs would make things much smoother. The lack of alternate strafes alone does not make the argument that brawl is less balanced. Its when you couple it with a lack of hit stun and floatness that it shows a higher meaning. lol with no hitstun characters have to exchange hits. Some characters in brawl are already at a disadvantage of even getting the hits in with out being predictable and having their attempts nulified. then when they finally do get the hit theres no follow up just back to square one with their predictable moves and more frustration to get in another hit with very little reward and a high chance you wont win the exchange. Plus if a character can camp you it gets worse. MUCH WORSE Then it would be if you could have new ways/strafes to get that hit in and follow up on that deserved confirmed hit for a better reward. THIS is why proportionally/ or directly parallel the brawl matchups compared with the melee ones are MUCH, MUCH worse overall.

 

[CRASHiC]

I read it all.

But forget my first argument for a moment, and look at this.
You attack the game's floatiness, this has nothing to do with the balance of the game. It has to do with the fact that the game is very aerial based.
As for L canceling, Brawl has, in comparison with melee, very little landing lag. The idea that it should be in there, just because, does nothing to argue against balance.
Kirby is screwed up by the melee engine the same that C. Falcon is by Brawl.
Your argument that melee has better match ups- Cause of hit stun. Can Marth not use hit stun more than Bowser? Or are you just saying that you no how to react to a matchup better in Melee because you've been playing that for 7 years and don't want to learn new systems?
In fact, as I'm responding to your text, I see you are MUCH more interested in bashing brawl than saying anything about its balance. Go and read InArby's post to learn how to argue your points better.
I read yours, and they do not respond to his, merely restate what he was replying to in the first place.
This is not a brawl bash topic.

 

[NES n00b]

I read it all.

But forget my first argument for a moment, and look at this.
You attack the game's floatiness, this has nothing to do with the balance of the game. It has to do with the fact that the game is very aerial based.
As for L canceling, Brawl has, in comparison with melee, very little landing lag. The idea that it should be in there, just because, does nothing to argue against balance.
Kirby is screwed up by the melee engine the same that C. Falcon is by Brawl.
Your argument that melee has better match ups- Cause of hit stun. Can Marth not use hit stun more than Bowser? Or are you just saying that you no how to react to a matchup better in Melee because you've been playing that for 7 years and don't want to learn new systems?
In fact, as I'm responding to your text, I see you are MUCH more interested in bashing brawl than saying anything about its balance. Go and read InArby's post to learn how to argue your points better.
I read yours, and they do not respond to his, merely restate what he was replying to in the first place.
This is not a brawl bash topic.

Brawl and arial based don't really go together....cause mostly people are putting up shields on the ground but whatever that is not what I am going to argue about nor am I going to argue about Melee being much more balanced than Brawl even though it obviously is.

But Kirby in Melee is not screwed because of the engine. He is screwed by having terrible hitboxes, laggy and very little damagaing attacks with no speed or arial movement whatsoever. He is terrible in almost every way in Melee from being light, to having terrible throws that can be breaken out of, to easily edgeguarded. But none of these things have anything really to do with the engine.

 

[SCOTU]

Brawl and arial based don't really go together....cause mostly people are putting up shields on the ground but whatever that is not what I am going to argue about nor am I going to argue about Melee being much more balanced than Brawl even though it obviously is.

But Kirby in Melee is not screwed because of the engine. He is screwed by having terrible hitboxes, laggy and very little damagaing attacks with no speed or arial movement whatsoever. He is terrible in almost every way in Melee from being light, to having terrible throws that can be breaken out of, to easily edgeguarded. But none of these things have anything really to do with the engine.

Alternatively, you could argue that this has EVERYTHING to do with the engine. In a different engine, small hitboxes and throws that you can break out of and low damaging attacks could be HUGE plusses, and laggy attacks and bad recovery and aerial movement and slow speed might not be particularly detrimental faults.

However, if you were to argue this, you'd be dumb.

 

[CRASHiC]

Hm. Yeah, I guess you're right NES. But then why is Kirby a beast in the other two? This I don't understand.

 

[GofG]

because he's a better character in the other two. His attacks do more damage, have better knockback, etc.

 

[Pakman]

In an attempt to move this discussion forward....

Most of the discussion us revolving around character match ups. But we seem to be focusing on one.

I keep seeing Sheik vs Bowser(melee) against DK vs D3(brawl) as an argument to determine some kind of balance. This one matchup nonsense is a small subset of the overall balance of the game. Proving that Bowser vs Sheik is easier or harder than DK vs D3 doesn't prove anything cause there are still hundreds of other melee/brawl match ups that determine the game's overall balance.

I think a better test would be MK/D3/Snake vs everyone compared to Marth/Sheik/Fox vs Everyone and similarly Pichu/MewTwo/Kirby/Bowser/Ness versus everyone compared to Sonic/Falcon/Low tiers versus everyone in brawl.

Basically this thread has too much emphasis on ONE match up in each game. Can we please move on.

 

[Masmasher@]

I read it all.

But forget my first argument for a moment, and look at this.
You attack the game's floatiness, this has nothing to do with the balance of the game. It has to do with the fact that the game is very aerial based.
As for L canceling, Brawl has, in comparison with melee, very little landing lag. The idea that it should be in there, just because, does nothing to argue against balance.
Kirby is screwed up by the melee engine the same that C. Falcon is by Brawl.
Your argument that melee has better match ups- Cause of hit stun. Can Marth not use hit stun more than Bowser? Or are you just saying that you no how to react to a matchup better in Melee because you've been playing that for 7 years and don't want to learn new systems?
In fact, as I'm responding to your text, I see you are MUCH more interested in bashing brawl than saying anything about its balance. Go and read InArby's post to learn how to argue your points better.
I read yours, and they do not respond to his, merely restate what he was replying to in the first place.
This is not a brawl bash topic.

NO, NO AND NO. Im not letting you weasel your way out of this one

BY ME: When I mean discrimination of games i mean for topics like this. The brawl side wants to debate with out a full deck. When the melee people prove them false and correct them. Your side looks dumb so you start saying that the melee people are flaming/bashing you for liking brawl and they are elistist. THIS IS how scars thread got closed.

You havent refuted any of these yet so now you say i'm bashing brawl. SEE I TOLD YOU THIS WOULD HAPPEN! I havent stated whether which game i like and i havent bashed because thats subjective speech, thats why scars thread went nowhere. claims without facts and justification (and a whole buch of thread spamming) This is a debate thats looking incredibly one sided right now because i will say to the people on the brawl side flatout. put up or shut up. Most of them have shut up cause they thought this was gonna be easy to just say I think brawl is more balanced. This approach is WRONG

CASE IN POINT: YOUR SIDE BROUGHT THIS UP INCLUDING THE MATCHUPS. When talking about the matchups the games engine has to be taken into account. We have brought up the idea of hit stun and needing more movement multiple times. points that no one on you side is refuting. Remember this involves both brawl and melee so im going to keep on bringing up these qualities to compare them

HOW is kirby screwed in melee like captain falcon is in brawl. You are a hypocrite you are telling me not to bring up aspects of brawls engine in to the argument for balance then you turn around and try to make an arguement like this= fail

I said l canceling in support with the addition of hit stun would make it important and Amazing ampharos stated in his statement before mine that l canceling was faster then the auto canceling in brawl. To which I said lag is lag and it makes the characters in melee move faster. the floatness combined with these makes follow ups harder follow ups that some of you characters desperatly need.
I have read about the matchups in brawl on these boards so i know it least enough conceptual thought to what im walking into.
YOU saying I have to learn new systems is saying I have to play brawl. I have played it took a look at the engine and im bring this to the table Along with melee knowledge (which most of you side lacks.) If anything your side is clearly more subjective than ours.

EDIT:
PAKMAN Some people pages back said that bowser vs sheik was the worse matchup period, then tried to parallel it into well brawl is more balanced. I saw that as a lazy attempt and went to refute it quickly although my approach was a little limited I wanted the BS to stop. thats why d3 vs DK keeps being brought up. I know it be better to look at the overall matchups though and I dont know all of them (some are irrelevant to me cause of who i main) I do know about the engine and the context of how you play the game WHICH SHOULD BE BROUGHT INTO THE MATCHUP comparisions

 

[RDK]

Sonic looks bad on paper. THe reason he is doing well is possibly because his potential lays outside of what goes down on paper. he has alot of mindgame potential but you can' put it on paper.

As much as I agree with you in some respects, the Sonic mains need to stop using this argument. What the individual player can do with a character concerning "mindgame potential", whatever that is, has no bearing on that character's tier position.

That's like saying (example) M2K can do amazing mindgames with Bowser, so because of that Bowser should be higher on the tier list. It's inane logic and has nothing to do with the actual character.

If it can't be "put on paper", then how the hell should it affect that character at all? The whole point of the tier list is to, speaking metaphorically, put their stats on paper.

 

[IrArby]

To play devil's advocate (since everyone else is randomly doing it) Melee Falcon's mindgame potential is relevant because of his speed. Without dashdancing (a 101 mindgame), Falcon loses alot of his approach ability. Even if he just say forces you to throw out an Ftilt to cover himself than the Falcon dashes back out and in for the grab, its a mindgame technically.

Still, you definetly correct seeing as this doesn't apply to Sonic since he doesn't have those AT options that Falcon has.

 

[MarKO X]

To play devil's advocate (since everyone else is randomly doing it) Melee Falcon's mindgame potential is relevant because of his speed. Without dashdancing (a 101 mindgame), Falcon loses alot of his approach ability. Even if he just say forces you to throw out an Ftilt to cover himself than the Falcon dashes back out and in for the grab, its a mindgame technically.

Still, you definetly correct seeing as this doesn't apply to Sonic since he doesn't have those AT options that Falcon has.

Or does he? Sonic has plenty of approaches and approach mixups that will keep your opponent guessing... provided the player knows what he's doing. You make a mistake, you get punished. You make more mistakes, you get punished some more.

 

[CRASHiC]

stuff

my side?
lol
What would that be, the ones who have yet to form an opinion?
This thread is one sided because of a huge amount of brawl bashers.
As far as I'm concerned, the only people that have made real points towards your side is Yuna and InArby. (not that there are big numbers towards the brawl side either, I think maybe 2 as well, I just don't remember their names)

 

[1048576]

I guess if you completely ignore hard numerical calculations...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Still, you definetly correct seeing as this doesn't apply to Sonic since he doesn't have those AT options that Falcon has.

Um yes he does dude. you can always use fox trotting to create a sweet looking dash dance appearance. youtube link is somewhere.

its rather difficult but not hard to perfect, I'll get it sometime.

you can also use his ability to cancel his moves which really adds to things considering how quicly shields come up and drop.

Moving from an ASC ~footstool~ spring~Dair is hard to predict considering he can continue eating your shield with the ASC, or normally cancel into a homing attack or anything else.

or you can be outside the opponents range, charge up a side B and cancel thenr eact to your opponent's behavior.

sonic is one of few characters that can keep his options open during his approaches.
The issue s that his approaches are not safe when he actually is approaching in spite of having many options.

 

[CRASHiC]

Though I do not like Sonic at all, it seems like more than any character he has the current brightest future. I hear more about what could be done with him than I do ice climbers these days.
I'm very interested in seeing how he progresses, though I will never use him. He just feels all wrong in my hands.

 

[Masmasher@]

my side?
lol
What would that be, the ones who have yet to form an opinion?
This thread is one sided because of a huge amount of brawl bashers.
As far as I'm concerned, the only people that have made real points towards your side is Yuna and InArby. (not that there are big numbers towards the brawl side either, I think maybe 2 as well, I just don't remember their names)

lol
then why are you here. you said on magical page 76 that you are currently favoring brawl.Try as you might i see your argument has devolved into calling the melee side brawl bashers. You still cant refute anything ive said or anything else our side has stated. You havent even stated a decent criteria for comparing the balance. If our side has been bashing then why hasnt it been stated pages before now Why cant you define the bashing? Why cant we bring the engine into account. You are comparing games to find balance. You dont throw in details to anything you say. Its not so much me misreading you as its you having a poor idea conveying of what you want to discuss. you yourself have brought up no points at all. I'm just going to assume your just a hypocrite as you brought up kirby being affected by melees engine I said captain falcon was hampered by brawls engine and you HAVENT ADMITTED IT. In this comparison of melee and brawls balance, qualities of each game are going to be brought out into the light to show how they affect the characters and the game itself. What is the criteria.....you and everyone else on the brawl side (the brawl side made this topic) have been too lazy to make any. Is the criteria defining rulesets, stages, characters, tournaments, ALL OF THESE ARE DERIVATIVES of the game itself which it self runs on that particular engine or format which establishes the way ALL of these derivatives work. so in more fleshed out arguments this is going to be eventually brought up. You know why i repeated the bit about the criteria. cause I know how you are when it comes to reading comprehension and this aint hooked on phonics.

You know why i say page 76 is magical. Cause its the page where you suddenly decided to skip my post and blindly defend amazing ampharos WITHOUT READING MINES IN FULL CONTEXT: IM going to prove that right now and unlike you i'm going to put in a conscious effort to explain how I KNOW you didnt read it.

I will disseminate his post first: YES i am qualified to do this as I was replying to it and just like this topic we are comparing and contrasting two post MINE AND HIS. Ill post paragraph by paragraph in the green text showing how relevant it is to mine and ill even include direct quotes from mine.

Originally Posted by Amazing Ampharos View Post
If you have more time to punish, that means that aspect is slower. It's a simple thing. Several random things in brawl are faster than they are in melee. For instance, no one in melee covers ground like Sonic does. I thinks rolls in general are a bit faster in brawl, but I'm not completely sure. They're certainly way more useful if nothing else... The point is that it's not totally black and white even in terms of speed. Yeah, melee is overall faster, but it's not strictly faster.

Please tell me how ANYTHING in this post refutes any of my arguments random things that are faster sonics speed really doesnt matter. The roll still doesnt refute my point of being predictable and appearently thats all he could come up with for being fast for ALL of the characters. as for punishment its almost like he was advertising that brawl was better for not having time to punish and this is false (ill reiterate that towards the bottom) i see nothing else that was implied except that theres less punish which doesnt make brawl faster in any legit aspect.

L-canceling is one of the most ridiculous things that gets complained about. Aerials in brawl have less landing lag in general in general than the non-L-canceled versions did in melee. Do you notice how almost every up aerial has ridiculously little landing lag in brawl? Someone is going to say "look at Captain Falcon..." I'm sure despite him being a completely unfair example because Captain Falcon and Ganon just got screwed in brawl and are like basing everything about melee's speed on Bowser or Mewtwo, but if you actually look at the cast as a whole, landing lag is generally lower than the non-L-canceled melee landing lag. It's not quite as low as the L-canceled stuff, but it's seriously not that long. It's also true that you actually feel it with laggy moves like Link's down aerial; in the end, landing lag variation between moves is a bigger deal in brawl. However, is that a bad thing?

This is ridiculous I said lag is lag and lcanceling helps character of all tiers and its fast then the auto cancel. He said himself that the lcanceling is faster then the auto canceling. Dont worry I even highlighted it for you. Remember we are comparing BOTH GAMES not just brawl itself. You cant seem to understand it lcanceling IN MELEE helps to make the matchups better.

The L-canceling system also completely arbitrarily screwed over Mr. Game & Watch, and if that level of landing lag was good, why did you have to press a button to begin with? It's hard to deny that melee would have been strictly superior if it were the same game with landing lag always being the level of L-canceling even if you don't press L (or R or Z for those who want to be pedantic).

I"m just gonna say this is useless. I HAVE THE GAME. L canceling might not have helped game and watch but it didnt screw him over and his aerials still cancel.

I'm frankly unconvinced that top vs bottom is any more extreme in brawl than it is in melee. Seriously, explain to me how melee Ness beats melee Sheik. Or try melee Bowser vs melee Sheik. The stock pretty much ends when Sheik lands a grab, and she's better than them in almost every way anyway so it's not like that's hard for her. Are you going to try to assert that the bad sides of those matchups can win unless the player is a lot better? At least brawl Captain Falcon can play with release grabs and runs fast and even has some pretty dangerous moves if he can get them in. He gets to play for real the entire time even; he has a very hard time because his moves are generally pretty poor and tricky to land, but he certainly gets lots of chances to try and even win if the player is better. The best versus the worst is pretty sucky in both games, but if I had to take the losing side in either game, I'd take it in brawl.

HE doesnt know the matchup of sheik vs ness in melee at all. its plain as day. I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN SINCE HE SPECIFIED EXTREMES. SHEIK VS BOWSER IS NOT AS BAD AS D3 VS DK.
The release grabs are a aspect of brawls engine. if he can mention engine aspect WHY CANT I

About tech chases, you also have Mr. Game & Watch's down throw and Diddy Kong's bananas that set up for it all the time. Tripping in general can lead to it even, and on stages like Luigi's Mansion it comes up pretty consistently. Tech chasing is a big deal in brawl for sure.

THIS IS USELESS TECH CHASING IS JUST AS IMPORTANT IN MELEE (and better) also F**K tripping

Mashing airdodge is a good way to lose in brawl by the way. You just get hit as the airdodge ends. Yeah, I can't deny that the defender has more options, but it's not like you go "oh well, I got hit". Getting hit is still what leads to you losing, and it still puts you in bad positions. Melee has a more offensive focus than brawl for sure, but the basic concepts between the two games are really not that different. You still do get punished in brawl. How do you think people lose in brawl? It's still about who leaves the opponent more opportunities and who capitalizes on the opportunities he gets better versus who mitigates the dangers of his mistakes the best. Just look at fighting Snake; I screw up at low percentage, get hit by his grenade, and then he catches me with jab1 -> ftilt1 -> ftilt2 as I try to recover from the positional consequences of being hit by the grenade. That's a lot of damage!

again the punishment isnt as good as it needs to be for some characters

Also, here's a random fault in melee that brawl doesn't have to worry about. In melee, Donkey Kong and Mr. Game & Watch have horrible shields that barely protect them even when they are full and make it really easy to shieldstab them. In brawl, no one has shields that disproportionate to their body sizes. Why do people never bring stuff like that up when comparing the games? This isn't that big of a deal, but the point is that melee has random little irritating things in it too that were fixed in brawl.

THE things that brawl fixed dont equal the amount of things that are broken and they had to ban and the thing that are conveniently left out. HE advertising how good brawl is


I will post my comment next:

I'm sorry but you dont get to turn around a fundamental aspect that was overlooked in brawl and say that that makes melee slower. ESPECIALLY one thats SUPPOSED to be in fighting games. ITS CALLED A FOLLOW UP TO A COMBO. I dont mean to sound this straightfoward but hes sonic. Of course his gonna be fast but that speed is hampered by small stages and the fact that with out JC grabs, dash dancing and a extended stop animation makes his tech chasing average at best. Then again this really has nothing to do with balance. Rolls are really useful because its all about being defensive, there less lag coming out of them (lucarios roll is stupid good) Annnnd you dont really have much other options for better ground manuvering. what im trying to say is that most of these points that "make brawl fast" are irrelevant outliers. explain the floatness of all characters. explain the lack of useful strafes for offensive and defensive gameplay.

L canceling deserves to be complained about. Lag is lag and l canceling helped to lessen that. Well brawls over all floatness comes into play and not that it matters much with oh wait another detrimental aspect of brawls engine, low hitstun. Oh side note complaining about captain falcon and ganondorf in brawl is not like complaining about mewtwo and bowser in melee at all. Captain falcon and ganondorf are screwed because they dont belong with that games engine. Mewtwo and bowser are generally just bad characters a title that befalls some characters in EVERY FIGHTING GAME.

SOOOOO you would rather fight d3 as dk then take on sheik as bowser lol. Also please...melee matchups are better. you know more stun, more strafes, this sort of thing.

lol l canceling is like learning how to do ivys calamity synphony or learning JF uppercuts with the mishimas. Its extra in the game but it helps in the long run if you learn to do it. its called learning to play on a advanced level/ wanting to be better.

Yes getting hit is bad but there should be a tide of push and pull/offense/defense situations that evolves from getting hit. Not just of i can do anything i want now. not being at a neutral postion the best display of defense/ offence at brawl only happens at the mid percents. Lower percents means you get hit and its like oh nothing happens and at higher you get to far knocked back fo them to do much of anything and you are still neutral. With lack of edgeguarding you wait for them to be back on the stage(airdodging) then you are neutral.
Unless you are meta knight edge guarding for this game is sub par at best.

Again these are random outliers for two characters. l2 power shield. Plus I think this is a little exagerated.


CASE IN POINT: YOU ETHER DIDNT OR CANT READ

 

[Deathcarter]

lol i read your post and i thought it was brilliant . You conveyed the best way to explain why comboing helps low tiers i was trying to explain that to amazing ampharos and your way of explaining was more expressed and expansive.

@deathcarter: I know that some matchups in brawl are better than sheik vs bowser if you correlate them. Some people pages back said that bowser vs sheik was the worse matchup period, then tried to parallel it into well brawl is more balanced. I saw that as a lazy attempt and went to refute it quickly although my approach was a little limited I wanted the BS to stop.

More options doesnt directly equate to better balance but the do assist in eliminating becoming predictable. this opens up more strafes so that the low tier characters who already have a disadvantage against someone higher can at least be on a even footing when it comes to advanced manuvering. Theres too many character specific traits in brawl for instance what does metaknight have on DK. five jumps 4 viable b specials that can recover, a glide, all his moves auto cancel better, IDC and so on. Not all the advanced techniques would be needed in brawl but DD, lcancel and JC grabs would make things much smoother. The lack of alternate strafes alone does not make the argument that brawl is less balanced. Its when you couple it with a lack of hit stun and floatness that it shows a higher meaning. lol with no hitstun characters have to exchange hits. Some characters in brawl are already at a disadvantage of even getting the hits in with out being predictable and having their attempts nulified. then when they finally do get the hit theres no follow up just back to square one with their predictable moves and more frustration to get in another hit with very little reward and a high chance you wont win the exchange. Plus if a character can camp you it gets worse. MUCH WORSE Then it would be if you could have new ways/strafes to get that hit in and follow up on that deserved confirmed hit for a better reward. THIS is why proportionally/ or directly parallel the brawl matchups compared with the melee ones are MUCH, MUCH worse overall.

IrArby was right in the sense that I don't understand the importance of the low tiers' tools against the high tier. But I am not sure that you guys understand a few things.

First, Bowser/Mewtwo/Kirby/Pichu do have options to punish the top tiers very well, but they have to land that hit FOUR times in a match. Even assuming they can take a stock of of all of the top tiers per hit, the top tiers have all of the tools to never get hit by them.

-Dashdancing is, in essence, a tool to bait and punish. How on earth is it goint to help those characters at all if the top tier characters never approach them? I know for a fact that those characters will have to approach Fox, Falco, and Shiek; They could try to SHFFL against them, but the top tier characters will get to use dashdancing as well as Crouch Canceling against them to punish accordingly (L-canceled moves can be punished btw), it will not go the other way around unless the bottom tiers can get the percentage lead. This leads me to my second point...

-The Top tiers outprioritize and outrange the bottom tiers completely. Brawl characters have to pass a wall of priority and range as well, but so do those characters. The difference here is that pretty much all of the low tier characters in Brawl except Sonic, Jigglypuff, Ganon, Lucas, and Falcon have some tools to get those hits in. Mario has the cape and fireballs, Samus has zair and missles, Ness has an actual tool he can use to space them, Yoshi has eggs and a hell of a lot of aerial speed, Pokemon Trainer has Bullet Seed, Razor Leaf, Rock Smash, and tools for spacing. The characters in E tier as well as a few in F tier all have good matchups against some of the Top Tiers; they did not get those matchups by not having options against their particular advisary. Most characters in F tier and even in G tier most definitely do not get ***** by ALL of the top tiers.

The Melee bottom tiers however have.......very little to use to get that hit in. They have to deal with effective Dashdancing, SHHFLing, Crouch Canceling, and priority/range. If they have to work even HARDER than the Brawl low tiers just to hit their opponents, that negates what ever damage they can inflict of their opponents. The characters in low tier do have some tools to fight the top tiers with, but the bottom tiers only have punishment in their arsenol which does not say much for them.

Second, pretty much all of the top tiers do not have a plethora of options to use against the low tiers. The whole idea of balance is how all of the characters are in relation to each other. If MK could inflict the damage the Melee top tiers could, he WOULD be broken. Thankfully the Brawl top tiers have to strategize on how they will get their hits in (the exception is MK of course, but most characters can somewhat counteract his approach). And fortunately, none of the top tiers are capable of heavily camping, preventing themselves from being punished, throwing out impregnable brick walls, and destroying more than 2 chracters effortlessly all in one package. They have to work harder to beat the low tiers than the Melee top tiers so it balances out.

 

[CRASHiC]

I also said a few pages back that Melee was more balanced. I am swaying back and forth. I'm hear to make up my mind, and you make no points that seem valid to me.

What does it matter WHY captain Falcon being screwed by the game's engine? If he is a bad character, he is a bad character. It in no way affects the game's balance any more than how bad a character pichu is. Talking about how charecters can over come matchups is relevant. Complaining about tripping, which is essentially just a new form of critical hit, does NOTHING to the argument against or for the balance argument.

I am not reading this one more time. I've read it enough, and you hardly ever talk about balance.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I also said a few pages back that Melee was more balanced. I am swaying back and forth. I'm hear to make up my mind, and you make no points that seem valid to me.

What does it matter WHY captain Falcon being screwed by the game's engine? If he is a bad character, he is a bad character. It in no way affects the game's balance any more than how bad a character pichu is. Talking about how charecters can over come matchups is relevant. Complaining about tripping, which is essentially just a new form of critical hit, does NOTHING to the argument against or for the balance argument.

I am not reading this one more time. I've read it enough, and you hardly ever talk about balance.

How do you define balance? # of viable characters, tournament diversity, and the difference between best and worst characters are all measurements of balance.

 

[Masmasher@]

I also said a few pages back that Melee was more balanced. I am swaying back and forth. I'm hear to make up my mind, and you make no points that seem valid to me.

What does it matter WHY captain Falcon being screwed by the game's engine? If he is a bad character, he is a bad character. It in no way affects the game's balance any more than how bad a character pichu is. Talking about how charecters can over come matchups is relevant. Complaining about tripping, which is essentially just a new form of critical hit, does NOTHING to the argument against or for the balance argument.

I am not reading this one more time. I've read it enough, and you hardly ever talk about balance.

Get it through you head.
1. You cant read therefore you wont.
2. you are being lazy and you got caught
3. It least you didnt say his post refuted mine we are making progress.
4. Captain falcon does effect the balance more because unlike pichu hes a good character
5. I see you still trying to call me out yet you are too lazy to make criteria.
6. In talking about character matchups we need to bring up the varibles of how the game plays INCLUDING THE ENGINE.
7. Tripping is in no way a critical hit this sound utterly foolish and you lose crediblity for even saying that matter of fact i might quote that for how ridiculous it sounds. F**k tripping.
8.I didnt mention tripping. amazing ampharos did
9. what about my other points in my earlier post address those .
CASE IN POINT: YOU ARE TOO LAZY TO READ/ OR CANT READ.
YOU ARENT LEGIT CAUSE YOU WONT READ. I BET YOU SKIPPED THIS POST OTHERWISE YOU WOULD SEE THE LIGHT. WHY DONT YOU READ THIS POST.
HOW CAN YOU SEE MY POINTS IF YOU DONT READ. YOU FAVORED BRAWL SINCE PAGE 76 AND HAVENT STATED ANYTHING ABOUT CHANGING YOU MIND SINCE THAT.

 

[RDK]

Um yes he does dude. you can always use fox trotting to create a sweet looking dash dance appearance. youtube link is somewhere.

its rather difficult but not hard to perfect, I'll get it sometime.

you can also use his ability to cancel his moves which really adds to things considering how quicly shields come up and drop.

Moving from an ASC ~footstool~ spring~Dair is hard to predict considering he can continue eating your shield with the ASC, or normally cancel into a homing attack or anything else.

or you can be outside the opponents range, charge up a side B and cancel thenr eact to your opponent's behavior.

sonic is one of few characters that can keep his options open during his approaches.
The issue s that his approaches are not safe when he actually is approaching in spite of having many options.

My point is that the way Sonic mains are toting the argument makes it look ridiculous and invalid. If "mindgame potential" is quantifiable, which it indeed is if you refer back to Iarby's example with Melee CF, then it is by no means unable to be "put on paper". That's the definition of quantifiable.

Your motive is right but the method is wrong.