Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**

[IrArby]

Alright, you said it yourself that shields being small isn't really a big deal. Thats because they still have alot of options outside of that. Since Brawl is apparently more defensive minded (not neccesarily saying I agree here), shields become a bigger deal.

Just about every Melee player has some techchase game since you can throw in more movement fakes and things like ShieldDashing.

I'll edit more later. IG2G right now.

 

[adumbrodeus]

L-canceling is one of the most ridiculous things that gets complained about. Aerials in brawl have less landing lag in general in general than the non-L-canceled versions did in melee. Do you notice how almost every up aerial has ridiculously little landing lag in brawl? Someone is going to say "look at Captain Falcon..." I'm sure despite him being a completely unfair example because Captain Falcon and Ganon just got screwed in brawl and are like basing everything about melee's speed on Bowser or Mewtwo, but if you actually look at the cast as a whole, landing lag is generally lower than the non-L-canceled melee landing lag. It's not quite as low as the L-canceled stuff, but it's seriously not that long. It's also true that you actually feel it with laggy moves like Link's down aerial; in the end, landing lag variation between moves is a bigger deal in brawl. However, is that a bad thing?

The L-canceling system also completely arbitrarily screwed over Mr. Game & Watch, and if that level of landing lag was good, why did you have to press a button to begin with? It's hard to deny that melee would have been strictly superior if it were the same game with landing lag always being the level of L-canceling even if you don't press L (or R or Z for those who want to be pedantic).

I'm frankly unconvinced that top vs bottom is any more extreme in brawl than it is in melee. Seriously, explain to me how melee Ness beats melee Sheik. Or try melee Bowser vs melee Sheik. The stock pretty much ends when Sheik lands a grab, and she's better than them in almost every way anyway so it's not like that's hard for her. Are you going to try to assert that the bad sides of those matchups can win unless the player is a lot better? At least brawl Captain Falcon can play with release grabs and runs fast and even has some pretty dangerous moves if he can get them in. He gets to play for real the entire time even; he has a very hard time because his moves are generally pretty poor and tricky to land, but he certainly gets lots of chances to try and even win if the player is better. The best versus the worst is pretty sucky in both games, but if I had to take the losing side in either game, I'd take it in brawl.

About tech chases, you also have Mr. Game & Watch's down throw and Diddy Kong's bananas that set up for it all the time. Tripping in general can lead to it even, and on stages like Luigi's Mansion it comes up pretty consistently. Tech chasing is a big deal in brawl for sure.

Mashing airdodge is a good way to lose in brawl by the way. You just get hit as the airdodge ends. Yeah, I can't deny that the defender has more options, but it's not like you go "oh well, I got hit". Getting hit is still what leads to you losing, and it still puts you in bad positions. Melee has a more offensive focus than brawl for sure, but the basic concepts between the two games are really not that different. You still do get punished in brawl. How do you think people lose in brawl? It's still about who leaves the opponent more opportunities and who capitalizes on the opportunities he gets better versus who mitigates the dangers of his mistakes the best. Just look at fighting Snake; I screw up at low percentage, get hit by his grenade, and then he catches me with jab1 -> ftilt1 -> ftilt2 as I try to recover from the positional consequences of being hit by the grenade. That's a lot of damage!

Also, here's a random fault in melee that brawl doesn't have to worry about. In melee, Donkey Kong and Mr. Game & Watch have horrible shields that barely protect them even when they are full and make it really easy to shieldstab them. In brawl, no one has shields that disproportionate to their body sizes. Why do people never bring stuff like that up when comparing the games? This isn't that big of a deal, but the point is that melee has random little irritating things in it too that were fixed in brawl.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deathcarter]

As opposed to Melee where everyone has all that?

Could you clarify this. Because from what I can understand from what you are saying, every character in Melee has very good options. That depends, do these options work on characters not in the top tier and do the low tier characters have the tools to consistently use these options in a match?

As opposed to Melee?

Melee beats Brawl in overall game balance as well because the game engine allowed for even the suckiest of characters to not suck quite as much as in Brawl.

Moveset wise, the crappy characters in Melee are BAD, they are saved only by the game engine allowing them more options. Brawl's low tiers suck, but they are not THAT bad, except when you compare them to the Sacred 6. They just don't have an engine to help them be better.

If I may add, every character except Donkey Kong is disadvantaged to the majority of the Sacred 6. Yoshi, the character at the bottom of F tier, goes even with half of the next 6 highest characters (R.O.B., Wario, Olimar) just to put things in perspective on how much better the Sacred 6 are compared to the rest of the roster. The low tiers are about 6 times more viable when compared to the more balanced B, C, D, and E tiers (and Diddy) simply because these characters are not THAT much better than them to the point that they own the F/half of G tiers. Here are all of the **** matchups I could find amongst the remaining 31 characters:

DK v. Lucas
Olimar v. Samus, Link, Ike, Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser (?)
Ice Climbers v. Ganondorf, Bowser, Shiek
Shiek v. Ganondorf Fox, Wolf (?)
Peach v. Olimar
Pikachu v Fox
Wario v. Sonic
Probably a few more involving Falcon and Ganondorf and other characters.

Count, that is 16 **** matchups I was able to find thus far. Add the Sacred 6 into the mix, that number will probably triple.

Now, I will admit, I may have been around since 2007, and I am more intelligent than a lot of posters, but I cannot definitevely say Brawl overall is more balanced than Melee due to lack of significant experience in Melee. I am arguing this because I am tired of the ignorant posters on Melee's side overexaggerating how much Brawl is imbalanced. It may be imbalanced, but it is not imbalanced to the point where I can say Sakurai did a very bad job balancing the game, if most of the imbalance comes from 6 characters.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@deathcarter
how can you argue balance if you don't have a bunch of knowledge on the otherside as well? you also forgot JP vs G@W.

 

[CRASHiC]

@deathcarter
how can you argue balance if you don't have a bunch of knowledge on the otherside as well? you also forgot JP vs G@W.

He already said he wasn't arguing against melee's balance just stating some vast over exaggerations about Brawl.

 

[Masmasher@]

If you have more time to punish, that means that aspect is slower. It's a simple thing. Several random things in brawl are faster than they are in melee. For instance, no one in melee covers ground like Sonic does. I thinks rolls in general are a bit faster in brawl, but I'm not completely sure. They're certainly way more useful if nothing else... The point is that it's not totally black and white even in terms of speed. Yeah, melee is overall faster, but it's not strictly faster.

L-canceling is one of the most ridiculous things that gets complained about. Aerials in brawl have less landing lag in general in general than the non-L-canceled versions did in melee. Do you notice how almost every up aerial has ridiculously little landing lag in brawl? Someone is going to say "look at Captain Falcon..." I'm sure despite him being a completely unfair example because Captain Falcon and Ganon just got screwed in brawl and are like basing everything about melee's speed on Bowser or Mewtwo, but if you actually look at the cast as a whole, landing lag is generally lower than the non-L-canceled melee landing lag. It's not quite as low as the L-canceled stuff, but it's seriously not that long. It's also true that you actually feel it with laggy moves like Link's down aerial; in the end, landing lag variation between moves is a bigger deal in brawl. However, is that a bad thing?

The L-canceling system also completely arbitrarily screwed over Mr. Game & Watch, and if that level of landing lag was good, why did you have to press a button to begin with? It's hard to deny that melee would have been strictly superior if it were the same game with landing lag always being the level of L-canceling even if you don't press L (or R or Z for those who want to be pedantic).

I'm frankly unconvinced that top vs bottom is any more extreme in brawl than it is in melee. Seriously, explain to me how melee Ness beats melee Sheik. Or try melee Bowser vs melee Sheik. The stock pretty much ends when Sheik lands a grab, and she's better than them in almost every way anyway so it's not like that's hard for her. Are you going to try to assert that the bad sides of those matchups can win unless the player is a lot better? At least brawl Captain Falcon can play with release grabs and runs fast and even has some pretty dangerous moves if he can get them in. He gets to play for real the entire time even; he has a very hard time because his moves are generally pretty poor and tricky to land, but he certainly gets lots of chances to try and even win if the player is better. The best versus the worst is pretty sucky in both games, but if I had to take the losing side in either game, I'd take it in brawl.

About tech chases, you also have Mr. Game & Watch's down throw and Diddy Kong's bananas that set up for it all the time. Tripping in general can lead to it even, and on stages like Luigi's Mansion it comes up pretty consistently. Tech chasing is a big deal in brawl for sure.

Mashing airdodge is a good way to lose in brawl by the way. You just get hit as the airdodge ends. Yeah, I can't deny that the defender has more options, but it's not like you go "oh well, I got hit". Getting hit is still what leads to you losing, and it still puts you in bad positions. Melee has a more offensive focus than brawl for sure, but the basic concepts between the two games are really not that different. You still do get punished in brawl. How do you think people lose in brawl? It's still about who leaves the opponent more opportunities and who capitalizes on the opportunities he gets better versus who mitigates the dangers of his mistakes the best. Just look at fighting Snake; I screw up at low percentage, get hit by his grenade, and then he catches me with jab1 -> ftilt1 -> ftilt2 as I try to recover from the positional consequences of being hit by the grenade. That's a lot of damage!

Also, here's a random fault in melee that brawl doesn't have to worry about. In melee, Donkey Kong and Mr. Game & Watch have horrible shields that barely protect them even when they are full and make it really easy to shieldstab them. In brawl, no one has shields that disproportionate to their body sizes. Why do people never bring stuff like that up when comparing the games? This isn't that big of a deal, but the point is that melee has random little irritating things in it too that were fixed in brawl.

I'm sorry but you dont get to turn around a fundamental aspect that was overlooked in brawl and say that that makes melee slower. ESPECIALLY one thats SUPPOSED to be in fighting games. ITS CALLED A FOLLOW UP TO A COMBO. I dont mean to sound this straightfoward but hes sonic. Of course his gonna be fast but that speed is hampered by small stages and the fact that with out JC grabs, dash dancing and a extended stop animation makes his tech chasing average at best. Then again this really has nothing to do with balance. Rolls are really useful because its all about being defensive, there less lag coming out of them (lucarios roll is stupid good) Annnnd you dont really have much other options for better ground manuvering. what im trying to say is that most of these points that "make brawl fast" are irrelevant outliers. explain the floatness of all characters. explain the lack of useful strafes for offensive and defensive gameplay.

L canceling deserves to be complained about. Lag is lag and l canceling helped to lessen that. Well brawls over all floatness comes into play and not that it matters much with oh wait another detrimental aspect of brawls engine, low hitstun. Oh side note complaining about captain falcon and ganondorf in brawl is not like complaining about mewtwo and bowser in melee at all. Captain falcon and ganondorf are screwed because they dont belong with that games engine. Mewtwo and bowser are generally just bad characters a title that befalls some characters in EVERY FIGHTING GAME.

SOOOOO you would rather fight d3 as dk then take on sheik as bowser lol. Also please...melee matchups are better. you know more stun, more strafes, this sort of thing.

lol l canceling is like learning how to do ivys calamity synphony or learning JF uppercuts with the mishimas. Its extra in the game but it helps in the long run if you learn to do it. its called learning to play on a advanced level/ wanting to be better.

Yes getting hit is bad but there should be a tide of push and pull/offense/defense situations that evolves from getting hit. Not just of i can do anything i want now. not being at a neutral postion the best display of defense/ offence at brawl only happens at the mid percents. Lower percents means you get hit and its like oh nothing happens and at higher you get to far knocked back fo them to do much of anything and you are still neutral. With lack of edgeguarding you wait for them to be back on the stage(airdodging) then you are neutral.
Unless you are meta knight edge guarding for this game is sub par at best.

Again these are random outliers for two characters. l2 power shield. Plus I think this is a little exagerated.

 

[CRASHiC]

You ignored every one of his arguments and just restated your own.
Great Job!

 

[GofG]

Brawl players are too stupid and don't know enough about melee to make this argument. If they knew enough about melee to know that it's more balanced, they'd be playing melee and wouldn't be visiting this board.

in during infraction

 

[Masmasher@]

Crashic: You didnt read my post did you. My arguements are also answers to his arguement and mine have yet to be refuted so instead of trying to start up something silly respond back in a justified manner

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I can pretty much guarantee that the average brawl player has played more melee than the average melee player has played brawl, but that doesn't actually matter. All that matters is the content of an argument, not the person making it. A statement like "brawl players are stupid" actually doesn't strengthen your position at all. Even if it were actually true, it would not weaken our arguments in any way.

 

[GofG]

I don't need to weaken your argument. I don't even really care about it. To quote myself:

Of course it was an ad hominem attack. I was insulting you. What are you, dense? I wasn't saying your position was stupid, I was saying YOU were stupid.

Also, as far as the melee players play brawl less than brawl players play melee, I don't believe it at all.

 

[CRASHiC]

Crashic: You didnt read my post did you. My arguements are also answers to his arguement and mine have yet to be refuted so instead of trying to start up something silly respond back in a justified manner

I did read your post, and felt that his had in fact refuted your thoughts, and even InArby, who had original convinced me that Melee was more balanced. At the moment, because of the reasons he listed, I am currently favoring Brawl.

 

[Deathcarter]

I don't need to weaken your argument. I don't even really care about it. To quote myself:



Also, as far as the melee players play brawl less than brawl players play melee, I don't believe it at all.

If Melee players were playing a "stupid" game more than Brawl players were playing a "better" game, then there is something very wrong with the Melee players, if we go by your logic (as precisely as I can preceive it).

 

[Masmasher@]

Crashic: No i dont think you did fully. How does ANYTHING in his post refute my claim of bad hit stun. Or captain falcon and ganondorf being screwed by the physics engine. Or the high floatness actually being any bit of good . DESCRIBE in detail
Geez i really dont think you read anything of mine. HE even stated him self that aerials in brawl dont get canceled as fast as l canceled aerials in melee. I then proceeded to say that lag is lag and you want to l cancel to get your character to move faster. Like in every fighting game you learn the extra stuff to further enhance you self meta game. EVERY FIGHTING GAME HAS BAD CHARACTERS. but this is because they are generally bad characters. not because the engine screwed them over. cough Brawl cough Please tell me how anything in the first paragraph of his post had any relevance. I stated the edge guarding is bad and some character who need it cant do it as well in brawl as they could in melee. whens this gonna be refuted!
For christs sake his post was BEFORE MINE lol! not saying that things of the past cant effect the present but if his post had had ANY meaning to refute what i said then i wouldnt have posted i would have been idle and sat back.

 

[IrArby]

Competitive Brawl is pretty much like Competitive Melee without the advanced techs except for like stupid stuff we thought was broken before we figured out the game. You know stuff we thought was inescapable like Fox's Dthrow at the edge or Link's Up B except these really are inescapable.

No seriously, and its I rArby not I"n"Arby. Jesus T*tty F*cking Christ. lol

As far as Melee Bowser vs. Shiek the stock (on FD) will likely end if she gets a grab but if Bowser gets Shiek offstage he pretty much takes her stock. Punishment matters more here and its more plausible. Edgeguarding is a much bigger deal when you can't airspotdodge or float back onstage without your UpB. The top tiers get punished the most even if they are harder to initially punish. Brawl bottom tiers face the same challenge on getting the initial hit but can't combo after it so how can they possilbly overcome that? No punishment or huge edgeguard game on players that don't die since most of the top 6 have great recoveries.

Honestly, I don't know how the Shiek/Ness matchup plays out but I'm willing to bet you don't either. I would venture to say that you don't know anything about advance Ness play. The lower tiers don't show up in tournaments not because they're utter trash but because they're not popular. Falco, Fox, Marth, Falcon, etc all much more fun to play not to mention they're more tournney viable.

Lets not pretend that speed makes Sonic or Falcon more viable. As I've said speed without DD, WD, DownCanceling, CC, Cactus dashing, Waveshielding, etc is much MUCH less effective. I've outlined what makes a character better in this game. Priority, Range, (access to those moves), doesn't get edgeguard much, and has good recoveriers. Tell me how MK, Snake, R.O.B., D3, etc don't fall under those categories very very well.

 

[Tenki]

I'm sorry but you dont get to turn around a fundamental aspect that was overlooked in brawl and say that that makes melee slower. ESPECIALLY one thats SUPPOSED to be in fighting games. ITS CALLED A FOLLOW UP TO A COMBO. I dont mean to sound this straightfoward but hes sonic. Of course his gonna be fast but that speed is hampered by small stages and the fact that with out JC grabs, dash dancing and a extended stop animation makes his tech chasing average at best. Then again this really has nothing to do with balance.

whoa whoa whoa.

Why does Sonic need a large stage, when all he really needs to do is camp just outside the opponent's attack range? o_O; small stages don't hurt him. They make the opponent closer and easier to punish with things ranging from grabs to aerials and dash attacks.

play less people that roll to the edge and charge downb plz lol.

Sonic B-reverse shield cancels, and just general side-B shield cancels which can stop his foxtrot animation, making things like his dashdance/foxtrot dance at least somewhat versatile. Aerial down-B landing shield cancels for the feints.

Also, while I was reading the quote before that (comparing MK and Falcon vs Ness/Melee Sheik) -

Well, Dedede and DK.

okay?

specific matchups aren't overall performance.

 

[cutter]

Boss took 4th at Cataclysm 4, basically the hardest Brawl tournament thus far, and he went all Mario and Luigi. Really need to see other people step their low and mid tier game up in order to make accurate opinions, because Boss is just on another level entirely. People on this board are absurdly adamant about their opinion until that opinion is deconstructed first hand, in-person.

I should point out however that Cataclysm 4 pre-emptively banned Dedede's Dthrow infinites.

I assure you that if Dedede's infinites were legal (which they SHOULD have been; it's completely ******** to ban something when it clearly does not break the game), Boss would not have placed 4th.

Imagine what Melee tournament results would be like if, for example, Sheik's Dthrow chaingrab was banned.

 

[metaXzero]

^I thought Luigi, Mario, and Samus can escape D3's infinite until 136% or something. DK's the only character who gets screwed over by teh infinite (Bowser gets Small-stepped CG, not infinited).

Since it only really effects one match-up, that's more reason NOT to ban it (lol)

 

[Masmasher@]

whoa whoa whoa.

Why does Sonic need a large stage, when all he really needs to do is camp just outside the opponent's attack range? o_O; small stages don't hurt him. They make the opponent closer and easier to punish with things ranging from grabs to aerials and dash attacks.

play less people that roll to the edge and charge downb plz lol.

Sonic B-reverse shield cancels, and just general side-B shield cancels which can stop his foxtrot animation, making things like his dashdance/foxtrot dance at least somewhat versatile. Aerial down-B landing shield cancels for the feints.

Also, while I was reading the quote before that (comparing MK and Falcon vs Ness/Melee Sheik) -

Well, Dedede and DK.

okay?

specific matchups aren't overall performance.

Oh lol I Dont play people like that dont worry lol (everyone i know we force them to play melee lol).
I read your guide on both of the down and side b properties a long time ago lol
i know about side b shield canceling ASC and all that jazz.
maybe not use the term camping. I think of projectiles when people say that I remember when someone that that captain falcon can camp with grabs which slightly irritated me lol.
Anyway i wasnt talking about sonic overall being hampered by a small stage i was simply talking about his run animation which loses usefulness on small stages. unless youre telling me that sonics run is actually useful on norfair or brinstar or hanenbow. lol Amazing ampharos brought his run up as a irrelevant claim to why brawl is faster then melee. useless
also character matchups may not be then end all base of overall performance but they do tell a tale about how the system works.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How is brawl faster than melee?
If he means minus L canceling I can understand.

 

[Deathcarter]

Competitive Brawl is pretty much like Competitive Melee without the advanced techs except for like stupid stuff we thought was broken before we figured out the game. You know stuff we thought was inescapable like Fox's Dthrow at the edge or Link's Up B except these really are inescapable.

No seriously, and its I rArby not I"n"Arby. Jesus T*tty F*cking Christ. lol

As far as Melee Bowser vs. Shiek the stock (on FD) will likely end if she gets a grab but if Bowser gets Shiek offstage he pretty much takes her stock. Punishment matters more here and its more plausible. Edgeguarding is a much bigger deal when you can't airspotdodge or float back onstage without your UpB. The top tiers get punished the most even if they are harder to initially punish. Brawl bottom tiers face the same challenge on getting the initial hit but can't combo after it so how can they possilbly overcome that? No punishment or huge edgeguard game on players that don't die since most of the top 6 have great recoveries.

Honestly, I don't know how the Shiek/Ness matchup plays out but I'm willing to bet you don't either. I would venture to say that you don't know anything about advance Ness play. The lower tiers don't show up in tournaments not because they're utter trash but because they're not popular. Falco, Fox, Marth, Falcon, etc all much more fun to play not to mention they're more tournney viable.

Lets not pretend that speed makes Sonic or Falcon more viable. As I've said speed without DD, WD, DownCanceling, CC, Cactus dashing, Waveshielding, etc is much MUCH less effective. I've outlined what makes a character better in this game. Priority, Range, (access to those moves), doesn't get edgeguard much, and has good recoveriers. Tell me how MK, Snake, R.O.B., D3, etc don't fall under those categories very very well.

There is one thing you did not mention: pretty much everyone outside of MK, Snake, Marth, Falco, DDD, and G&W does not have that either. The high tier characters have very few guaruanteed stetups for additional damage and pretty much have to work for their damage as well. Besides, it is not overly difficult for the lower tiers to hit the higher tiers because the B, C, D, E tiers generally do not have brick walls impenetrable enough to shut down all of the low tiers options. Of course there are exceptions, but a winnable high v. low tier matchup in Brawl are generally common. Only the top 6 characters have many follow ups and brick walls which is why I feel everyone needs to understand how much they imbalance the game.

The more I think about it and the more I read on reasonable people opinions on matchups, the more I think the balance of the lower 31 characters is close to the balance of that of Street Fighter 4, about 0.6-0.8 times as balanced. The problem with trying to arguing this against Melee is that:

1. This is impossible to apply to the competetive aspect of Brawl since banning 6 characters is simply not feesible. Which is probably the hardest thing for people on this forum to realize since I am talking about the overall balance as opposed to the competetive balance.

2. Are not only the 31 remaining characters in Brawl very well balanced, but also is Melee that unbalanced to the point that Brawl can be considered more balanced than Melee after you factor in needing to take out 6 characters to achieve that balance?

 

[Yuna]

Funny thing you mentioned this because all the "slower" characters except Ganon are either mid tier or higher.

Ah, but they are that high up not because of the speed of their moves but because of other factors. Now if they didn't possess those skills, they'd be screwed. In Melee, L-canceling helped the slower characters, who were mostly Mid or below back then.

You act as if L-canceling is the solution to everything.

No I don't.

Just beacuse you claim that "L-Canceling helps more than auto-canceling ever will" doesn't mean it's true. Prove it or else you are a troll.

Are you saying L-canceling isn't better than auto-canceling?

Nobody's gonna "die" for being slow btw that's probably just a random assumption based on your limited experience in Brawl.

I'm sorry, you must not have met the English language. It's called "a figure of speech".

When did King Dedede lose because he's slow?

When does King DeDeDe actually use his slow moves? King DeDeDe mostly uses his fastest moves and then sometimes (very rarely) a few of his slower moves for KO:ing edgeguarding or techchasing.

All slow characters have moves that are safe on block...

Did I ever claim otherwise? However, if these moves are very few in numbers and not very good anyway, there's not much you can do without being overly predictable.

even Ganon does against some characters. Every character in Brawl has something going for him...

Yes, but if your character has 2 things going for then while most others have 10 or more, you're pretty screwed, aren't you?

What I saw of melee is that a lot of stuff that people liked to call combos were actually not combos because you could DI out (a combo is absolutely forced no matter what the opponent does, by definition).

Don't listen to idiots who call DI-able strings combos. There were plenty of guaranteed combos in Melee. Some of these only lasted 2-3 hits, but they were combos nonetheless.

I wonder if Yuna will reprimand you, declaring that the difficulty of a technique is irrelevant, as long as it is able to be performed by humans.

The start-up argument flies, the other one, not so much. However, he specifically says he's against equating Melee infinites with Brawl infinites since Melee infinites are so hard to do (for one thing, Fox's flatland infinite on Peach and Link has yet to be mastered. AFAIK, no Fox can do it consistently enough...).

So, basically, we have Wobbling vs. everything Brawl has.

Could you clarify this. Because from what I can understand from what you are saying, every character in Melee has very good options. That depends, do these options work on characters not in the top tier and do the low tier characters have the tools to consistently use these options in a match?

I apologize for not making it clearer that I was being sarcastic.

As for match-up ratios, please, please enlighten me on the many, many **** match-ups in Melee if you remove the very best of Melee (let's call them the Sacred 4 or 5). Also, who cares if it was the movesets or game engine that saved whoever? At the end of the day, you still have a game that is either more or less overall balanced than another.

 

[Deathcarter]

I apologize for not making it clearer that I was being sarcastic.

As for match-up ratios, please, please enlighten me on the many, many **** match-ups in Melee if you remove the very best of Melee (let's call them the Sacred 4 or 5). Also, who cares if it was the movesets or game engine that saved whoever? At the end of the day, you still have a game that is either more or less overall balanced than another.

To be honest, I don't think there are many **** matchups among the remaining 21 characters not named Mewtwo, Pichu, Bowser, and Kirby. No one else posseses either insurmountable offensive options (Sacred 4) or an impregnable brick wall (Peach). I imagine Melee minus the sacred 4 being VERY close to Brawl without the Sacred 6. The only god awful matchup I can think of in the remaining roster of Melee is Bowser v. Ice Climbers. I still think the reduced Brawl is slightly more balanced despite the higher amount of god awful matchups (which is 4-5 IIRC) due to being able to due it with a larger roster and only having two characters facing a serious number of **** matchups.

I guess the million dollar question pertaining to my argument is wheter or not the remaining 31 characters are balanced to the point that that balance can make up for how much more the Sacred 6 imbalance the full roster compared to Melee's Sacred 5 who are significantly more balanced.

(Unfortunately, I don't posses either the extensive knowledge of all of the lower tiered Melee characters nor a convienent collection of matchup ratios to claim anything other than what I said in the first paragraph.)

 

[Pakman]

Imagine what Melee tournament results would be like if, for example, Sheik's Dthrow chaingrab was banned.

They would be exactly the same.

I really only see seen sheik's down throw chain grab occur in sheik dittos. Sheik isn't good because of chain grabs. She is good for a plethora of other reasons.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Imagine what Melee tournament results would be like if, for example, Sheik's Dthrow chaingrab was banned.

They would pretty much be like this: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DkU95ZU8M

 

[Forcystus]

In Brawl, speed doesn't matter as much as it does in Melee. This is mainly because as opposed to melee being a ground-based game, Brawl is actually more of a 'mid-air' based game.

 

[Phantom7]

Actually, I would have to say Melee is more balanced.

Btw, my fangame, Super Smash Bros Crusade is very balanced. We've been working on making the heavy weghts easier to use (like PETEY PIRANHA) and making the game more competitive. Just thought I'd point that out. It's not like I'm PROMOTING THE GAME or anything.

 

[metaXzero]

They would be exactly the same.

I really only see seen sheik's down throw chain grab occur in sheik dittos. Sheik isn't good because of chain grabs. She is good for a plethora of other reasons.

Isn't Sheik's D-throw the reason how she utterly ***** lower Tiers? Without it, doesn't that make the match-up better for her opponents?

Curious, do the few Sheik pros out there now (besides M2K countering Falcons) have some "rule" against D-throw?

 

[Pakman]

Isn't Sheik's D-throw the reason how she utterly ***** lower Tiers? Without it, doesn't that make the match-up better for her opponents?

Curious, do the few Sheik pros out there now (besides M2K countering Falcons) have some "rule" against D-throw?

The question at hand was if sheik didn't have the d-throw chain grab. The d throw itself is good without the chain grab. Sheik's downthrow -> fair ***** like every character.

 

[Yuna]

*accidental edit*

 

[Diddyknight]

more friendly >.>

 

[Deathcarter]

I was merely trying to dispel the impression that "Brawl minus the Sacred 6 is super-balanced" is a valid argument. You just admitted to how it isn't.

If you want to go down this path, then, as you just admitted to, you'll also have to look into just how balanced Melee vs. Sacred 4/5 is in comparison to Brawl minus Sacred 6.

I see your point and I am incline to agree. Primarily because only competetive play really matters in balance discussions and that whether I like it or not, I have to factor in the Sacred 6 as they are an equal part of this game. You don't need to reply to this, I just wanted to add some substance to this post to make up for my next point....

more friendly >.>

Wow what an informative addition to the thread at hand. I am glad you gave us insight to your opinion through your well composed and articulate post.

 

[metaXzero]

Sorry Yuna. I meant how D-throw leads to other things like F-air (not neccessarily another D-throw).

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Then she'd just have to d-tilt->fair, jab to fair (wtf?!?), f-tilt to fair if people don't DI, or just plain approach with Fair->jab (hopefully leading to one of the other setups).

It's really not just Shiek's d-throw that makes her good. Her tilts (and jab) are safe on block or dodge, her aerials are safe on block or dodge, she's got good traction for crouch canceling, she's got needles (one of the better projectiles), ect.

 

[1048576]

You can main any character in Melee with no need for a secondary, because Melee has combos. All you need to win in Melee is like 15-20 good reads on your opponent. With brawl, you need to hit them like 100 times, so the bad matchups are worse.

 

[Rave925]

This can REALLY go on forever and I don't have the time to keep going back if someone replies to my comment so just message me if you disagree or somethng alright. I think Brawl is more balanced than Melee. Either way, I think both games are amazing and offer more than MANY other games on the xbox or ps3, freal. Both games make you think much faster and smarter than games like gears of war or halo 3...trust me as I have all of them and I always come back to brawl or melee if im looking for a game that really makes you think fast and hard. Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash. As for Brawl, which doesn't have such an overused glitch, you really need to put your mind to what you're doing. Now...a while back I was for Melee, but as many of you know, over the months brawl has uncovered many more techniques than it had before and the mindgames continue to change over time. I noticed this when I got off Brawl for a while and noticed right when i got on wifi that everybody's style changed and i could no longer read anyone's strategy. But, as i said before, both games are good. How bout we just put this whole thing aside and play both?

 

[metaXzero]

^^Then she'd just have to d-tilt->fair, jab to fair (wtf?!?), f-tilt to fair if people don't DI, or just plain approach with Fair->jab (hopefully leading to one of the other setups).

It's really not just Shiek's d-throw that makes her good. Her tilts (and jab) are safe on block or dodge, her aerials are safe on block or dodge, she's got good traction for crouch canceling, she's got needles (one of the better projectiles), ect.

I never said "Sheik's only good because of her D-throw". But their has to be some reason why of all qualities of, her D-throw tends to be brought up as one of her more feared attacks. D-throw-->F-air and/or D-throw CGs tend to be brought up on how Sheik utterly devastates characters. It gives off the impression that while Sheik is very good and better then most characters, her D-throw is what really shuts down characters.

Or maybe I'm crazy and read Sheik related posts wrong.

EDIT: Rave925. Wavedash wasn't a freakin glitch. And you still had to "put your mind to what you're doing".

 

[Yuna]

Sorry Yuna. I meant how D-throw leads to other things like F-air (not neccessarily another D-throw).

And my reply would remain the same.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You can main any character in Melee with no need for a secondary, because Melee has combos. All you need to win in Melee is like 15-20 good reads on your opponent. With brawl, you need to hit them like 100 times, so the bad matchups are worse.

that could also be an argument to brawls balence because you actually have to out play your opponent the entire game, as opposed to getting a few lucky reads in a 0-death combo.

 

[da K.I.D.]

This can REALLY go on forever and I don't have the time to keep going back if someone replies to my comment so just message me if you disagree or somethng alright. I think Brawl is more balanced than Melee. Either way, I think both games are amazing and offer more than MANY other games on the xbox or ps3, freal. Both games make you think much faster and smarter than games like gears of war or halo 3...trust me as I have all of them and I always come back to brawl or melee if im looking for a game that really makes you think fast and hard. Much of Melee's gameplay revolves around the wavedash. As for Brawl, which doesn't have such an overused exploit, you really need to put your mind to what you're doing. Now...a while back I was for Melee, but as many of you know, over the months brawl has uncovered many more techniques than it had before and the mindgames continue to change over time. I noticed this when I got off Brawl for a while and noticed right when i got on wifi that everybody's style changed and i could no longer read anyone's strategy. But, as i said before, both games are good. How bout we just put this whole thing aside and play both?

fixed that for you.

also, i agree with all of this, as its very true