Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[UltiMario]

He laughs at your Overconfidence Boosted Outrages?

I think not.

Edit: Smogon update:

Outrage is illegal on Overconfidence Mence.

 

[PowerBomb]

Egg moves aren't able to be passed with Dream World abilities?

._.

 

[Fuelbi]

He laughs at your Overconfidence Boosted Outrages?

I think not.

Edit: Smogon update:

Outrage is illegal on Overconfidence Mence.

Wait, they already make Overconfident Outrageous Mence illegal when they could be making **** like Shanderaa and Jaroda illegal?

 

[9Kplus1]

Wait, they already make Overconfident Outrageous Mence illegal when they could be making **** like Shanderaa and Jaroda illegal?

Outrage isn't an egg move, so it's illegal with Earthquake Spiral (sounds cooler than Overconfidence IMO). Shanderaa won't be banned unless people don't catch on to running Shed Shell on Blissey, and for that matter, not spamming choice-locked Normal / Fighting attacks early in the game. Jaroda on the other hand is terrible. So what if it gets +2 SAtk with Leaf Storm? It has a crappy movepool and, oh, a base 75 Special Attack. I'll be surprised if it breaks low OU

 

[SilentVerse]

Outrage isn't an egg move, so it's illegal with Earthquake Spiral (sounds cooler than Overconfidence IMO). Shanderaa won't be banned unless people don't catch on to running Shed Shell on Blissey, and for that matter, not spamming choice-locked Normal / Fighting attacks early in the game. Jaroda on the other hand is terrible. So what if it gets +2 SAtk with Leaf Storm? It has a crappy movepool and, oh, a base 75 Special Attack. I'll be surprised if it breaks low OU

You'd actually be surprised. I've used Jaroda quite a bit on our Gen 5 server, and it's actually quite good. Leaf Storm + Hidden Power pretty much makes up its special movepool; however, that's really all it needs. Counters can be worn down by Leech Seed + Substitute until they can be KOed by Leaf Storm. It's respectable bulk also gives it some extra longevity. Yeah, it probably doesn't deserve to be banned, but it's still a threatening Pokemon.

 

[9Kplus1]

I can agree with that, but once the metagame starts developing a bit, Jaroda won't be able to force much out in order to net a free sub (unless you Encore something, 75/95/95 defenses won't be making a sub lol). More Steels are bound to pop up due to the increase of Dragons, and Rain Dance teams don't have much to fear either with permanent rain.

Access to Taunt makes it usable in OU since Sub | Leech Seed | Leaf Storm | HP Ground still gets ****ed over by Mence and Blissey, both of whom can sit there and set stuff up while Jaroda tries to "weaken" then with Sub + Leech Seed. Taunt coming from a nice, troll-ish base 113 Speed (yeah, **** you Purugly) can prevent Nattorei, Mence, Sazando, Gigigear, and Scizor from turning you into set up fodder.

 

[SilentVerse]

Jaroda can still come in on bulky waters though thanks to its good defenses. You can simply sub as they'll likely switch (Leaf Storm, despite being off of a Base 75 Special Attack, still does a ton to Bulky Waters), and as they send in their counter, you Leech Seed and stall them out. While Jaroda can only choose one Hidden Power, Ice is the best option as steels can be easily trapped by Shanderaa and Magnezone. Jaroda might not be as effective once the metagame settles, but I doubt he'll be "terrible".

 

[9Kplus1]

You can simply sub as they'll likely switch (Leaf Storm, despite being off of a Base 75 Special Attack, still does a ton to Bulky Waters), and as they send in their counter, you Leech Seed and stall them out.

May I ask what exactly Jaroda is going to stall out bar Blissey? It's "counters" either don't give a **** about Leech Seed or are immune to it.

While Jaroda can only choose one Hidden Power, Ice is the best option as steels can be easily trapped by Shanderaa and Magnezone.

You're trapping a U-turning Jirachi / Scizor? Support-oriented Steel-types will more than likely be carrying a Shed Shell as they did in 4th gen to prevent Magnezone from trapping them

 

[SilentVerse]

May I ask what exactly Jaroda is going to stall out bar Blissey? It's "counters" either don't give a **** about Leech Seed or are immune to it.

(I assume you're using Hidden Power Ground in your argument. I'm assuming Hidden Power Ice or Fire, as in my opinion, they're the better options) Uh, against offensive teams, Jaroda can sub as it forces a Water type out. Say a Heatran switches in. If its Scarfed, then you Leech Seed and switch out. The residual damage from Leech Seed and Stealth Rock (assuming Stealth Rock is still potent in this generation) will slowly wear it down. I guess "Stall out" weren't exactly the right words - it's more like wearing down your potential counters with Leech Seed. Jaroda can stall out something like Uragamosu though, as Jaroda outspeeds and can simply spam Substitute until it dies or switches out.

You're trapping a U-turning Jirachi / Scizor? Support-oriented Steel-types will more than likely be carrying a Shed Shell as they did in 4th gen to prevent Magnezone from trapping them

Okay, this is true. However, arguably any SubSeeder has an issue with U-turn, so I don't know why you're picking on Jaroda for this problem. Other SubSeeders also can only run two move coverage at the most as well, so unless they use HP Fire, they have issues with Steels as well, and will probably need Magnezone support. Also, if Steels run Shed Shell, they sacrifice a ton of longevity, which makes it easier to wear them down.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

Outrage isn't an egg move, so it's illegal with Earthquake Spiral (sounds cooler than Overconfidence IMO). Shanderaa won't be banned unless people don't catch on to running Shed Shell on Blissey, and for that matter, not spamming choice-locked Normal / Fighting attacks early in the game. Jaroda on the other hand is terrible. So what if it gets +2 SAtk with Leaf Storm? It has a crappy movepool and, oh, a base 75 Special Attack. I'll be surprised if it breaks low OU

How does it not being an egg move make it illegal? I don't get it?

 

[UltiMario]

You can't get a Dream World ability on a move that can only be taught in 4th Gen

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

^ But wait. Salamence learns Outrage no? So get a Overconfidence one and level it up? Or was Outrage/is it not taught to mence in 5th gen?

Also, is it confirmed that if you breed that the ability can pass down? So you can have a Poke w/ great
IVs/Nature and ability?

 

[Gates]

Outrage is a move tutor move from 4th Gen. This is the only way Salamence can learn it.

 

[Wave⁂]

Since no one else will explain it, you can't breed an Overconfident Salamence in 4th gen games, and you can't transfer Pokémon from 5th gen to 4th gen.

 

[Cease Tick]

cloyster is the best. discuss

 

[E123-omega]

Shell break+ Simple beam+ white herb= +4 speed, +4 attack, +4 sp. attack with no defense drop.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Gyarados laughs at you, then.

That depends on when Gyarados is switching in. After Overconfidence gives Salamence +1, Intimidate "resets" Salamence's Attack to zero, and then what're you gonna do back to it?

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ice Fang.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Since when do Gyarados run Ice Fang? Stone Edge is more believable.

 

[PowerBomb]

That depends on when Gyarados is switching in. After Overconfidence gives Salamence +1, Intimidate "resets" Salamence's Attack to zero, and then what're you gonna do back to it?

Ice Fang.

Trollolol.

Does anyone see Emboar as useful? If Reckless does double damage, then he'll have an extremely powerful Head Smash and Flare Blitz, which is always cool...

He also has access to Grass Knot for some reason. Better movepool than Blaziken, but a better Dream World ability than Infernape?

 

[Pete278]

Since when do Gyarados run Ice Fang? Stone Edge is more believable.

Gyarados obviously don't run Ice Fang anymore, with Mence being gone, but I've seen plenty of Gyarados with Ice Fang over 4th Gen's lifespan.

 

[9Kplus1]

I guess "Stall out" weren't exactly the right words - it's more like wearing down your potential counters with Leech Seed.

Thanks for clearing that up

Okay, this is true. However, arguably any SubSeeder has an issue with U-turn, so I don't know why you're picking on Jaroda for this problem.

I picked Jaroda out of that bunch because it lacks the offensive capabilities to damage its switch ins hard, unlike Shaymin and Celebi (Seed Flare and that extra 25 base SAtk make a huge difference); moreover, Leaf Storm's low PP and the distribution of Herbivore make it less reliable than Grass Knot in the long run. Again, access to Taunt is the only reason to use Jaroda in OU as a SubSeeder over due to the amount of things, especially before bans are set in place, that have no problem setting up on Grass STAB + Hidden Power.

Other SubSeeders also can only run two move coverage at the most as well, so unless they use HP Fire, they have issues with Steels as well, and will probably need Magnezone support.

But those said Grass-types have a move to either cripple or outright KO Steels (e.g. Earth Power and Focus Punch). It's likely that Magnezone is going to pop up alongside them in order to remove Scizor from play, but that's only if Scizor decides to lock itself into Bullet Punch >.>

Also, if Steels run Shed Shell, they sacrifice a ton of longevity, which makes it easier to wear them down.

Was it a problem in gen IV? Skarmory and Forretress have access to Roost and Explosion, respectively, so the loss in overall staying power isn't really noticeable. Also, is that really a problem in an almost anti-stall metagame?

Does anyone see Emboar as useful? If Reckless does double damage, then he'll have an extremely powerful Head Smash and Flare Blitz, which is always cool...

Emboar ruined my dreams of a self-cooking hog, **** him. But yeah, The recoil damage is going to add up pretty quickly and that low Speed means that it's going to be revenged quickly. Hell, even with Nitro Charge it won't be staying in for long. Maybe it'll be a fun wallbreaker in UU since Blaziken's going to be jumping tiers soon.

Since when do Gyarados run Ice Fang? Stone Edge is more believable.

I'm very sure that most players would rather hit Breloom, Dragonite, Flygon, and Shaymin harder than nail other Gyarados or SE damage. Fail Edge is common on Gyarados, but a good amount of people still run Ice Fang to mess with FWG cores, which are on just about every decent team.

 

[Gates]

lol @ this metagame being anti-stall.

Stall will find a way. Always has, always does, always will.

 

[Wave⁂]

Stall will find a way. Always has, always does, always will.

That doesn't change the fact that this metagame appears to be anti-stall.

 

[Wrath`]

I think the metagame so far is being fast and hitting hard.

 

[9Kplus1]

lol @ this metagame being anti-stall.

Stall will find a way. Always has, always does, always will.

So the huge power creep, Shadow Tag, Psycho Shock, Magic Coat's and Trick's new effects don't already cripple stall? What about the lopsided "walls" that will most likely be abusing Breakable Armor, Shell Break, or Swift Swim? Yeah, stall is going to be a force to be reckoned with >_>

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We could totally poll on the predicted metagame if it wouldn't waste space.

 

[9Kplus1]

There's no point in creating a poll for that because at this point, it's uncertain which style of play is going to take over gen V; Balanced and HO are definitely tied though due to the lead meta being absolutely screwed over. The only solid assumption that we can make at this point is that weather control is going to be a huge part of the meta, be it carrying a weather inducer of your own, or an anti-weather Pokemon.

 

[SilentVerse]

Thanks for clearing that up

I picked Jaroda out of that bunch because it lacks the offensive capabilities to damage its switch ins hard, unlike Shaymin and Celebi (Seed Flare and that extra 25 base SAtk make a huge difference); moreover, Leaf Storm's low PP and the distribution of Herbivore make it less reliable than Grass Knot in the long run. Again, access to Taunt is the only reason to use Jaroda in OU as a SubSeeder over due to the amount of things, especially before bans are set in place, that have no problem setting up on Grass STAB + Hidden Power.

You say that Leaf Storm has low PP here; however, Seed Flare has the same PP. Yes, Seed Flare with Shaymin's Special Attack is much stronger than Jaroda's initial Leaf Storm, but the thing is, the opponent can simply play around the Special Defense drops from Seed Flare. Leaf Storm, on the other hand, is pretty much permanent unless you can PHaze or force Jaroda out, which means you'll probably take damage from a boosted Hidden Power before he switches out. Taunt might be useful on Jaroda, but if you use it with SubSeed, you only have a single moveslot left for Leaf Storm, which has terrible mono coverage. I'd much rather use Taunt with a moveset like Leaf Storm / Hidden Power / Taunt / Leech Seed, as that way, you can damage stall.

But those said Grass-types have a move to either cripple or outright KO Steels (e.g. Earth Power and Focus Punch). It's likely that Magnezone is going to pop up alongside them in order to remove Scizor from play, but that's only if Scizor decides to lock itself into Bullet Punch >.>

Grass + Ground loses to Flying types and Grass types, in particular Skarmory which sets up easily on you, and other Grass types that take pathetic damage from your Grass STAB and Earth Power. Hidden Power Fire is better imo. If necessary, Jaroda can use Hidden Power Ground with Leaf Storm as well, so I fail to see how Jaroda is inferior in this sense. It is important to note that SubSeeders will only have two spots left, as the other slots will be taken up by Substitute and Leech Seed. If you're using Breloom to SubSeed (which iirc is the only Grass type that commonly uses Focus Punch), you will probably have only one space left since your other slots will be taken up by Spore, Substitute and Leech Seed, so it's very different from Jaroda.

Was it a problem in gen IV? Skarmory and Forretress have access to Roost and Explosion, respectively, so the loss in overall staying power isn't really noticeable. Also, is that really a problem in an almost anti-stall metagame?

This is true.

 

[9Kplus1]

Snip about Leaf Storm

I said that Leaf Storm is less reliable than Grass Knot, and I never said that Seed Flare wasn't either.

If necessary, Jaroda can use Hidden Power Ground with Leaf Storm as well, so I fail to see how Jaroda is inferior in this sense.

Being able to hit Steels without relying on Hidden Power makes the current Leech Seeders superior to Jaroda. Being able to hit both Steel- and Dragon-types is a lot better than spamming an attack that's resisted a huge chunk of the OU metagame.

It is important to note that SubSeeders will only have two spots left, as the other slots will be taken up by Substitute and Leech Seed.

I won't argue against that, but keep in mind that other Grass-types will have the advantage of higher defensive capabilities, a better movepool, or typing over Jaroda.

If you're using Breloom to SubSeed (which iirc is the only Grass type that commonly uses Focus Punch), you will probably have only one space left since your other slots will be taken up by Spore, Substitute and Leech Seed, so it's very different from Jaroda.

I didn't use Breloom as the only example of a Pokemon that does the role of SubSeeding much better. Take note that other Grass-types, namely Celebi, have access to much better typing, defenses, and options to use while Jaroda's only merits are its high Speed and Taunt.

 

[Wave⁂]

We're good at derailing RMTs.

Safe switch-ins to Salamence, Sazandora, Ononokusu. Do they exist, for Mence? What can switch into Ono besides Skarmory?

 

[Luxor]

Nothing could stop Mence last time and I don't see anything changing now. Predict his DD/EQ/FB and counter with the appropriate faster choice dragon?

 

[Gates]

Nothing could stop Mence last time and I don't see anything changing now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We're good at derailing RMTs.

But this isn't an RMT.

 

[Wrath`]

Is Onosku(Axe Face) over-rated, or do people not know how to use him? He just seems to die from most any neutral STAB or non STAB Super Effective.

 

[Tomo Takino]

I think the metagame so far is being fast and hitting hard.

Of course it is. How could you make a stall team right now? Stall only works when you are able to be aware of the threats you are going to encounter. This metagame as of right now is far too unstable for stall to work.

Shadowtag does not invalidate stall. I don't know where you got that idea. Have you ever played Ubers? Wobbuffet is in Ubers, and Ubers ended up becoming a stall metagame.

I advise you all to stop replying to 9k, as he's attempting to theorymon against people who have actually played with these pokemon, and has said several stupid things.

note that other Grass-types, namely Celebi, have access to much better typing

 

[Pete278]

Hey, Celebi's got great weaknesses, like 4x to bug, and other useful things. Second only to Abomasnow's!

 

[vanderzant]

I've read bits and pieces of this thread, but could someone tell me what the 'Swim Goggles' item are, and what effects (confirmed or theorised) they have?

 

[Tomo Takino]

Don't worry about it, swimming goggles already proved to be non-existent and made up

 

[Wave⁂]

Okay so basically nothing can Salamence, Sazandora, and Ononokusu.

That's good to know.