Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[kirbyraeg]

Yeah let's make a team of 5 dragons and a screener.

Wait I think I did this before... =D

 

[Gates]

Shadowtag does not invalidate stall. I don't know where you got that idea. Have you ever played Ubers? Wobbuffet is in Ubers, and Ubers ended up becoming a stall metagame.

Somebody clearly never plays Ubers.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ubers DPPt stall: Be offensive enough to try not to give anything a setup opportunity while trying to Roar as much as possible.

 

[Wrath`]

I am liking Nattorei as a mixed wall, plus the Gyro Ballin' ability makes him a decent attacker as well. Also If the Rugged Helmet item is real(Has rough skin effects) switching Nattorei on a physical attack will do 2x the contact damage, although you'd have to sacrifice leftovers.

 

[Circa]

I'm making my first B/W team right now. Hopefully I'll have some decent, gimmicky sets to talk about. Like for Zuruzukin, who I think could be pretty ****ing fun to use.

Bark Out has a 100% chance of lowering SAtk, right? Does anyone know the % chance if it's not?

 

[UltiMario]

We're good at derailing RMTs.

Safe switch-ins to Salamence, Sazandora, Ononokusu. Do they exist, for Mence? What can switch into Ono besides Skarmory?

Suicune ALWAYS beats Sazandora. Some other Bulky Waters might be able to do the trick, but I'd have to look into that more.

Since Ononokusu lacks any Fire Type attacks, Ground Netural or Ground Immune Steels will take on Ononokusu with relative ease. Heck, it's even so frail that stuff like Forry Gyro Balls can probably 3HKO it while Ononokusu can barely touch the thing.

Mence... I'd need to theorymon a bit more with him, but if you run Politoed and rely on rain, his Fire Blast can be weakened to the point that a lot of steels can safely get in on him.

 

[Gates]

Ubers DPPt stall: Be offensive enough to try not to give anything a setup opportunity while trying to Roar as much as possible.

This is more accurate than what Celebi said. There is a "true" stall team in Ubers (Blissey/Forry/Lugia/Latias/Gitatina-O/filler) but it loses HARD to Darkrai and Dialga. Ubers is the most aggressive metagame out there aside from Little Cup. Saying that Ubers is centered around stall shows unbelievable ignorance towards the format. Frankly it shows that all you know about the format is from reading the Uber RMTs in The Smog, which are often stall for the sheer reason that it is extremely difficult to run a successful stall team in Ubers.

OU is the format centered around stall, not Ubers.

 

[Wave⁂]

Pre-evolution stone:

"For unevolved Pokémon that can evolve (e.g. Munchlax, Gligar, Porygon), it boosts both defenses by 50%.
For middle-stage Pokémon (e.g. Porygon2, Dusclops, Chansey), it boosts them only by 30%."

Trace / Pre-Ev Stone Porygon2 can probably take on Mence. Unless it's some **** like Overconfidence / Dragon Claw.

Gligar gets a better boost, but his SpDef isn't too great.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

How about that Dusclops? With that Pre-Evolution Stone his defenses are better than Dusknoirs.

Also, how about the Red Card? The effect is basically "When a Pokemon holding Red Card is hit with a physical move, the attacker is forced to switch out." or something.

 

[kirbyraeg]

So you give Red Card to Blissey, spam Charm and Softboiled, and rack up phazing damage while spreading Thunder Wave?

Sounds like we've found Gen V stall, ladies and gentlemen! Paralysis is the biggest threat in this metagame, so ground-type sweepers will be touted for that free switch-in vs. paralyzing moves used on defensive teams.

 

[Tomo Takino]

Don't forget all the new pokes that have gained immunities to verious types with their abilities. Sadly I don't think Herbavore is given to any pokemon worth a **** that I can recall, maybe dream world though?

 

[9Kplus1]

Shadowtag does not invalidate stall. I don't know where you got that idea. Have you ever played Ubers? Wobbuffet is in Ubers, and Ubers ended up becoming a stall metagame.

Are you being ignorant or just trolling? I can't tell...

Wobbuffet's main role in Ubers is checking Scarfed Pokemon and, if possible, locking something into a move that Lucario and Rayquaza - just an example of two dangerous Uber threats - making it a staple on offensive teams, which is the prominent style of play in Ubers iirc. Saying that its existence in a metagame full of Pokemon that naturally hit like a truck relates to the effectiveness of stall shows that you have no experience in the Ubers metagame. I don't get why you only pulled Shadow Tag from my list of what ruins stall for 5th gen when it's not the biggest factor, especially when you're completely wrong about it not crippling stall in OU. Maybe I should have been more specific, Shanderra is the only other viable user of Shadow Tag so maybe it would've been best to just mention it and Wobba.

I advise you all to stop replying to 9k, as he's attempting to theorymon against people who have actually played with these pokemon

That was uncalled for - everyone's entitled to their opinions, and you can't tell people to stop replying to me just because assumptions about the metagame have a shaky foundation. As you said, and as I already accepted, gen V is way too early in development to make solid assumptions such as which Pokemon will be viable or situational in a certain tier. I made assumptions based off of 4th gen's tiers, and how gen V's alternated mechanics (and new Pokemon herp durr) will impact the OU metagame.

I assumed that Jaroda would be outclassed by other Grass-types due to its lower defensive capabilities and shallow movepool. Not only that but its base Speed doesn't really grant it anything special, just the ability to outpace and KO Gengar with HP Ice / Fire.

and has said several stupid things.

Oh yeah? Like what, saying that Grass / Psychic typing is much better than pure Grass typing? Could you give me an instance where the extra weaknesses really make the difference, especially when Celebi has access to Reflect, Thunder Wave, and Recover? Being one of the best checks to RP Terakion is worth not being able to stay in on Scizor IMO. On a related note, when the **** have you ever tried to Pursuit a Celebi?

 

[Gates]

When Crashic tells you to ignore someone, you know it's bad.

Pre-evolution stone:

"For unevolved Pokémon that can evolve (e.g. Munchlax, Gligar, Porygon), it boosts both defenses by 50%.
For middle-stage Pokémon (e.g. Porygon2, Dusclops, Chansey), it boosts them only by 30%."

Trace / Pre-Ev Stone Porygon2 can probably take on Mence. Unless it's some **** like Overconfidence / Dragon Claw.

Gligar gets a better boost, but his SpDef isn't too great.

I wonder if this will be banned in Little Cup?

So you give Red Card to Blissey, spam Charm and Softboiled, and rack up phazing damage while spreading Thunder Wave?

Sounds like we've found Gen V stall, ladies and gentlemen! Paralysis is the biggest threat in this metagame, so ground-type sweepers will be touted for that free switch-in vs. paralyzing moves used on defensive teams.

I told you stall would find a way.

 

[Kofu]

Actually, the Pre-evolution Stone will probably help to balance out the extremely offensive Little Cup Metagame.

I also thought that Red Card only works once?

 

[UltiMario]

Red Card is a 1-time use item, BTW.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Red Card is a 1-time use item, BTW.

Lololol so much for them stalling children.

 

[kirbyraeg]

So this is my guess as to how styles of play in the metagame will develop:

1: Most people will use heavy offensive teams.
Sad but true, most people will focus on having a team where nobody can be trapped by Chandeliermon, and the best way to do so is to not have Choiced Fighting/normal moves or. Ironically I think Chandeliermon will lose its popularity a lot as soon as people realize that it can itself be trapped by other Pokémon (I'm looking at you, Dugtrio!), letting defensive teams be able to function once it is removed from the picture.

2: Weather will be a strong presence until Smogon decides to ban ALL of them because they're dumb as ****.

They remain powerful enablers of various Pokémon, but creative counters of these team types will come about, and generally I think that these team types will die down once some well-known player establishes an anti-rain set that will catch on. Nobody will use sun initially because everybody is scared of Stealth Rock, but expect that to change, because Sun is better in this metagame than rain! Even powerful resists can be overcome with dual STAB Fire Blast, and a lot of sweepers benefit greatly from Ninetales' Drought. It could even be the focus of a defensive team, as it would enable a lot of defensive Pokemon that are weak to Water to function much more effectively.

3: Defensive dragons will become the new standard.
Everybody is hard for O-whatever. Everybody will prepare for him. People are also forgetting that Dragon is one of the better defensive types, particularly when it isn't x4 weak to Ice, and that defensive boosters carrying support moves will become the focus point of successful teams.

4: Rest-talk will be almost nonexistent on defensive teams.

Too many things carry high-powered moves for them to just tank attacks with their defenses alone with delayed recovery through Rest. Teams will focus more on instant recovery and exploit abilities such as Regeneration to restore health paired with Heal Bell support more than relying on RestTalk.

5: Balloon and Aiming Mark are the best items in the metagame.

...Yes I'm serious. BALLOON. Do you see that effect? It basically will give any sweeper a free turn to switch in on a ground-type attack. If this isn't affected by entry hazards, this type of effect would be really helpful for a late-game sweep, particularly on something that has Speed Boost and a weakness to Ground.
Aiming Mark has a lot of utility as well, particularly on Pokemon that would otherwise be setup bait for others. It would grant you a way to sweep through what would normally be a hard counter. It singlehandedly makes late-game Fighting-type sweepers viable.

edit: lolredcard. I thought it was a permanent, which would be nigh broken. That's still a great item to have on a defensive check though, as I think it would activate regardless of whether the Pokemon survives or not.

 

[Wave⁂]

Okay, some weird stats coming up (keep in mind Pre-ev Stone cancels out LO):

Neutral nature 252 no item Salamence's Draco Meteor vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature Dusclops :
57% - 67.6%
Neutral nature 252 no item Salamence's Outrage vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature Dusclops:
56.3% - 66.9%
Neutral nature 252 no item Salamence's +1 Outrage vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature Dusclops:
84.9% - 100.4%

Neutral nature 252 LO Salamence's Draco Meteor vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature +1 Duskull:
79.1% - 93.4%
Neutral nature 252 LO Salamence's Outrage vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature +1 Duskull:
77.9% - 92.2%
Neutral nature 252 LO Salamence's +1 Outrage vs. 252 / 0 neutral nature +1 Duskull:
118% - 138.9%

I had a theory that Duskull might be as good as Dusclops. Probably should have looked at their stats first. Duskull is still pretty beastly, especially with Levitate.

Draco Meteor Mence vs. 252 / 0 +1 Pory2:
49.2% - 58%
Outrage Mence vs. 252 / 252 Bold +1 Pory2 (one Dragon Dance and Trace):
36.1% - 42.8%

 

[SilentVerse]

I said that Leaf Storm is less reliable than Grass Knot, and I never said that Seed Flare wasn't either.

Ok.

Being able to hit Steels without relying on Hidden Power makes the current Leech Seeders superior to Jaroda. Being able to hit both Steel- and Dragon-types is a lot better than spamming an attack that's resisted a huge chunk of the OU metagame.

If we're comparing Subseed Jaroda to the current OU Grass types in OU as Subseeders, you can't have three move coverage. So as such, said Grass types cannot run Earth Power + Hidden Power + Grass STAB. Unless you're advocating that they should drop their Grass STAB, which wouldn't be that great of an idea, you can only hit either Steels or Dragons in the first place, not both.

I won't argue against that, but keep in mind that other Grass-types will have the advantage of higher defensive capabilities, a better movepool, or typing over Jaroda.

Ok, it's pretty obvious we're on different pages here. I'm comparing Jaroda as a Subseeder, not a supporting Grass type as its pretty much given that the other Grass types have better defensive stats and better movepools. As a Subseeder, Jaroda is great as Leaf Storm + Perversity is really quite good when you can wear down counters with Leech Seed before attempting a sweep. Also, I'd argue Sceptile is a better comparison to Jaroda than the other Grass types because of this, as it both looks like their function will be Offensive Subseeding (Erufuun looks like it outclasses Pure SubSeeding atm), except that while Sceptile has more initial power, Jaroda can easily boost its Special Attack.

I didn't use Breloom as the only example of a Pokemon that does the role of SubSeeding much better. Take note that other Grass-types, namely Celebi, have access to much better typing, defenses, and options to use while Jaroda's only merits are its high Speed and Taunt.

Celebi's typing definitely is not better than Jaroda's. I guess he has a resistance to Fighting, but with Shanderaa around, this isn't that great. Grass / Psychic also grants it a 4x weakness to Bug, which means it handles U-turn even worse than Jaroda. A Pursuit weakness on top of that doesn't help either. Celebi does have better defenses, but honestly, I doubt it has a better typing.

 

[Gates]

Lololol so much for them stalling children.

A trivial setback. Soon enough you will all be mere peasants looking up to the glorious stall master race.

 

[Tomo Takino]

Oynx with balls is a better physical wall than Shuckle, having 10 more base stats in defense, and much more HP. He's got a ****ty typing, but what can you do.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Actually I think a team of 5 Calm Minders and a suicide lead, all with Red Cards would be the ultimate offensive stall team.

 

[MetallicMario]

Has anyone noticed Espeon is a awesome status absorber now with Magic Mirror reflecting all status back at the opponent.

Too bad it couldn't be on Umberon, who can actually take a attack without needing a Sash.

 

[Wave⁂]

Oynx with balls is a better physical wall than Shuckle, having 10 more base stats in defense, and much more HP. He's got a ****ty typing, but what can you do.

DDMence's +1 Earthquake vs. +1 252 / 0 Impish Onix:
65% - 76.6%

+1 Outrage:
58.4% - 69%

Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 / 252 Onix:
80.3% - 95.3%

Beastly on the physical side, kind of meh specially.

 

[UltiMario]

Like Swampert is taking hits as well as the Onix is and it sorta can actually do something back.

 

[vanderzant]

Don't worry about it, swimming goggles already proved to be non-existent and made up

Oh wow that's good to know XD.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

All that hype for Rain Dance suddenly died down. XD
That's not to say it shouldn't be reckoned with.

 

[Tomo Takino]

Like Swampert is taking hits as well as the Onyx is and it sorta can actually do something back.

Yeah its still not good lol. Maybe for a lower tier.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Why are you talking about Onix?

Forgetting about perfectly useable, much more bulky Rhydon?

105/120/45 is perfectly useable as a physical wall or mixed sandstorm wall, AND it gets Lightningrod as an ability in older Gens. If that changes to the new effect of lightningrod it could become a perfectly viable NFE.

 

[Tomo Takino]

I'm talking about Onix because it now has the highest defense stat in the game when you count the boost by the ball, since Bulbapedia counts Marowak with the Thick Club.

 

[kirbyraeg]

but it has a stupid base 35 HP.

That's the same as Dugtrio's base HP.

 

[Tomo Takino]

Yeah but, I'm saying it now has a higher defense than Shuckle, that's all, which in itself is pretty cool fact to know lol.

 

[Gates]

 

[Wave⁂]

Rhydon in sand or Chansey?

 

[UltiMario]

Rhydon in sand or Chansey?

One's a good Physical Wall and the other is a good special wall, and both sucky Mixed walls.

...

RhyChan?

 

[kirbyraeg]

252 hp/252 spdef Impish Rhydon (in sand): 414 HP / 304 Def / 283 SpDef

252 def/252 spdef Bold Chansey: 641 HP / 119 Def / 309 SpDef

hard to say actually.

 

[Wave⁂]

Chansey doesn't like sandstorm, especially without Leftovers. Specially defensive Mantyke?

 

[MetallicMario]

To quote you, Gates:

 

[UltiMario]

Mantine sucks enough as it is why would you even use Mantyke.

 

[Tomo Takino]

To counter the Moth of course, resisting both STABS and having high special defense.