Inactivity: Jigglypuff's Anime Club

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Anyone who hates it, play the 5.0 build. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh yes, we were obviously disscussing how we dislike version 4.0 and not Brawl+ in general.

^sarcasm^

 

[illinialex24]

Hey 4.0 is good. 4.1B was a little bit shaky but sorry if you can't appreciate a good game.

 

[SuSa]

I prefered 3.0 over any version released thus far. Albeit, it had bugs and the like.

Or was it 3.2? (was there ever a 3.2?)

Meh.... whatever

I still prefer Brawl Melee.

 

[Miles.]

JIgglypuff General Discussion - Discuss Brawl+

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm against BBrawl because the people running it are idiots.

If you have a problem with us, take it up with us instead of flaming in some random topic. Directly insulting posts are prone to being modded or--

Oh. Wait.

At any rate, I addressed your post in the thread about snake jab, which you ignored. If you had actually played the game, you would see how snake u-tilt *WAS* heavily nerfed... but instead you seem to be content with looking at random changes, imagining false intentions we may have had when making and testing them, and telling us how incompetent we are.

Bbrawl people nerf the wrong things and buff the wrong things. They have the right idea in mind but they do everything so stupidly that I just facepalm and wish someone would make changes that would make people respect a Modded brawl

They are very condescending

Point being, the makers of bbrawl actually don't listen to your suggestions

Again, you have a problem with us I'd appreciate it if you take it up in different channels than flaming in a random social chat.

This is a running theme we've been running into. Someone shows up, suggests a change, and then flames us when their change doesn't get put in. Sometimes the changes are good ideas, but can't work due to various reasons. Sometimes they are terrible ideas.

In your case, you asked for a buffed rest. I want rest to be stronger as much as the next Jigglypuff main, but a stronger rest would imbalance the Diddy Kong matchup while not helping much against the real problems Jigglypuff faces. I thought I was polite about explaining this to you in both the topic and a PM.

We even tested a buffed rest early on. I can pull up ancient testing versions that have it. It was bad, testers including ourselves didn't like the results. Sorry, but that's the reality, and no theory can dispute it.

I had a lot of my own ideas for changes proven to be horrible by testing. So did Ampharos. In fact, some tests even introduced new infinites! (Although we were both really quick on finding and eliminating them almost immediately.

The changes to DDD is getting rid of his chaingrab.
I understand the infinite, but the chaingrab itself does not hurt charecters that bad. The charecters who are hurt from the chaingrab are because they lack a way to get keepthemselves safely out of it, or because they are easily gimped. Much of those problems were already fixed by the buffs to the other charecters, meanwhile, all of D3s previous 35:65 matchups are left as is, and D3 was given no tools to help this. There response was learn to tech chase, and downthrow at the edge to throw em low. I responded how if that were useful, we'd see Melee foxes and Falco's downthrowing at edges to send players to their doom much more often, to which they responded by disagreeing politly. I expressed my conern many times, only to have it said that the chaingrab was to be removed because it made stages nonviable. I stopped trying to convience them after this.

Stop putting words in our mouth and stop spreading FUD about DDD. You haven't played the game, and all the testers who have think DDD is doing just fine. For crying out loud, he has a 13-frame advantage on d-throw now! It makes Snake's d-throw look like a piece of crap!

Seriously guys, all I'm asking for here is a little respect.

 

[SuSa]

It would have made more sense to nerf any of Snake's other moves.

Nerf the 29% dealing, deadly dair.
Nerf the just-a-bit weaker, but still viable and useful dtilt.
Nerf ftilt a bit
Nerf the also 29% dealing nair.
Nerf the mine (which can KO much of the cast before 110%. You know. Before utilt will KO)
Nerf the C4 (which, when fresh - can KO a little later then utilt)
Nerf the dthrow (moving from a -1 frame advantage, to possibly a -3 or -4 frame advantage. Giving characters like Marth a chance to roll away and NOT be hit by ftilt - but still be able to be tech chased)

Instead you nerf a move that should never even hit. Ever. If you get hit by it, it was your fault.

So please, remind me why it was nerfed.

Also may I ask how a stronger rest would imbalance Diddy vs Jiggly? I can't even land a rest against Diddy in vBrawl unless I get a bit lucky with perfect resting. (Trying to throw his banana then rest him has so far, been impossible for me. Jigglypuffs throw is too slow)

 

[feardragon64]

And virg gets mad at the Marth boards for being off topic.
Granted virg isn't one of the people talking off topic.

 

[SuSa]

I could easily change the topic title (which is a social thread) to something else.

It's a social thread, which means I'm still on topic.

 

[illinialex24]

Thats because Virg..... is Virg.

 

[Thinkaman]

It would have made more sense to nerf any of Snake's other moves.

Nerf the 29% dealing, deadly dair.
Nerf the just-a-bit weaker, but still viable and useful dtilt.
Nerf ftilt a bit
Nerf the also 29% dealing nair.
Nerf the mine (which can KO much of the cast before 110%. You know. Before utilt will KO)
Nerf the C4 (which, when fresh - can KO a little later then utilt)
Nerf the dthrow (moving from a -1 frame advantage, to possibly a -3 or -4 frame advantage. Giving characters like Marth a chance to roll away and NOT be hit by ftilt - but still be able to be tech chased)

Instead you nerf a move that should never even hit. Ever. If you get hit by it, it was your fault.

So please, remind me why it was nerfed.

I don't understand your overall point here.

Yes, you just listed a bunch of things that are good about Snake. Yes, nerfing them would make Snake worse. ...and...?

Snake has consistently been the character most affected by buffs to low-tier characters. Unlike other characters who can outright evade attacks regardless of how much they are buffed, Snake more often needs to trade hits, especially with nades. Buffs other characters got to effective pokes (to deal with Marth, G&W) tend to effect Snake equally or more.

After we nerfed Snake's u-tilt heavily, he was already where he needed to be. There was no need to nerf him more. Jab3 looked kind of goofy being stronger than u-tilt, so we nerfed it a small amount. Obviously our thought process wasn't at all "Gee, Snake is sure powerful, but if only his third jab was weaker, that'd fix 'em!".

The rest of the story is that after we went public, the general concensus was the people didn't like the feel of snake's u-tilt--it was slightly overnerfed. However, Snake was still a good character. The solution we settled on was to give Snake back 3 points of knockback growth to his u-tilt and take away 1% of damage from f-tilt 1. Snake has been doing just fine in playtesting ever since, exhibiting no matchups that are too easy or too hard.

Also may I ask how a stronger rest would imbalance Diddy vs Jiggly? I can't even land a rest against Diddy in vBrawl unless I get a bit lucky with perfect resting. (Trying to throw his banana then rest him has so far, been impossible for me. Jigglypuffs throw is too slow)

Diddy Kong is the only matchup where Jigglypuff should have consistent rests available as an option. (Perfect resting dash attack, f-smash, and u-smash.) I actually prefer to not use rest if I'm winning, both in case I make a huge mistake and so that I have an unexpected easy KO last stock... but that's another story.

 

[illinialex24]

I'm sure Lain would enjoy these discussions.

 

[Metatitan]

Horrible matchups happen in even balanced games. Besides do you people actually still think that jigglypuff beats diddy? If that's the case why don't you go beat one of the top diddies?

 

[Maniclysane]

I love the Jigglypuff boards. Since nobody here actually plays Jigglypuff we like to argue about the most irrelevant things. I think g-reg, thinkaman, and PND Mike are the only people left who actually play Jigglypuff.

I just play weegee now. Mostly because I like to shoryuken my opponents.

 

[SuSa]

So you changed something because it was goofy? Gee, what a great and fantastic competitive reason to change something.

Ok, so now ftilt deals 20% instead of 21%? Unless this drastically changes it's decay rate... I fail to see this even making a noticeable difference considering it's to ftilt1, not ftilt2 (where it would effect knockback and such) I realize Snake isn't as much of a powerhouse KO'r in BBrawl - but I find 1% differences to rarely make a significant change.

Also apparently you don't play Donkey Kong a lot. I rest him hundreds of times more then Diddy Kong. Why? Because I can actually setup rests by abusing decay rates (uair and bair) and can perfect rest him out of every attack save down-B. (But I can rest him out of that)

Perfect resting is not consistent, albeit it's at least borderline practical.


What saddens me is how you feel you are the knowledge base of all characters playstyles. Snake does not rely on trading hits, especially with grenades - save for a few matchups. These matchups are the ones where we do not downright outspace us (save uptilt), so we need a way to rack damage on them. These characters also tend to be lighter then us - and die earlier. As of such, we use grenades (so that if they are hit, both parties take damage - which matters more for the lighter character) to not "trade damage" but more-so to "give damage". 2 such characters are Meta Knight and Game & Watch

Snake relies far more on his opponents making mistakes (usually by not knowing what to do), reading (dthrow, and anything from getups), and simply outspacing (his disjoints help with that).

Ganon, Falcon, Jigglypuff, Wario, Luigi, Squirtle and Mario (and others) would all have better matchups against Snake if his hitboxes just weren't as big. We usually avoid exchanging damage with them (except Wario in some cases) simply because we outrange them. Why take damage if we can just ftilt or pivot grab?

 

[Thinkaman]

So you changed something because it was goofy? Gee, what a great and fantastic competitive reason to change something.

Again with the misrepresentation; we're keeping jab3 in line with the u-tilt change. We would have done the same with d-tilt, but it wasn't as jarrign so we left it alone. I don't understand why you have taken particular offense to such a small change when by your own argument it is trivial.

Ok, so now ftilt deals 20% instead of 21%? Unless this drastically changes it's decay rate... I fail to see this even making a noticeable difference considering it's to ftilt1, not ftilt2 (where it would effect knockback and such) I realize Snake isn't as much of a powerhouse KO'r in BBrawl - but I find 1% differences to rarely make a significant change.

No you don't. You don't find it to be anything. You've never even played the game. You are just making foregone conclusions on a message board about it. Also:

Unless this drastically changes it's decay rate...

What does this even mean? Decay rate is a constant function for growth on all hitboxes.

Also apparently you don't play Donkey Kong a lot. I rest him hundreds of times more then Diddy Kong. Why? Because I can actually setup rests by abusing decay rates (uair and bair) and can perfect rest him out of every attack save down-B. (But I can rest him out of that)

Why would any DK be letting you do this to them? Why aren't they DIing sideways? This should only work once or twice.

What saddens me is how you feel you are the knowledge base of all characters playstyles.

Stop putting BS in my mouth. I (and Ampharos) have said time and time again that we don't know everything about this game... no one does. Anyone who actually they thinks they know this game in and out well, with all characters, is an idiot. This entire project is built on respect; when I don't know something about a character or matchup, I have to go find someone who does.

If I don't know a Snake matchup, do I go play it? Well, probably, but that's not going to be my main source of info; my Snake is not bad but not good enough to make balance decisions based on. No, I go talk to Ren. Need to learn something about Lucas? Gotta go talk to Galeon. Peach? Where's Praxis? Link? I have Legan on speed-dial.

The only characters I've trusted my own experience with as a primary source of information is Jigglypuff, Ness, and Pokemon Trainer. When I spent my entire summer tracking down and pestering expert mains for feedback, I'd appreciate it if you would stop telling me that I consider myself "the knowledge base of all characters". Okay?

 

[SuSa]

Diminished move. I know the formula is the same, but I don't know if that 1% difference can actually make a larger difference in the long run.

Jarrign? I will assume "jarring" Which is improper use of the word. ( http://www.answers.com/topic/jarring )

The reason I question such a change is because it makes me question what is really going through your head? How do you see the nerfing of an already useless move to be useful? That's like saying "Hey guys, so we nerfed Mario's dtilt.."

Actually... I find more uses for Mario's dtilt then I do Snake's Jab3....

Yep. Because training mode (where %'s are not fractions and therefore change %'s dealt) doesn't count. Right?

"Why are you perfect resting Diddy's out of dash attack? They should be hitting you with a banana and following up with a different move"
"Why are you perfect resting Diddy's out of fsmash? They should be using dsmash when given the chance to do so. If it can't kill, they should be grabbing or retreating instead."

All I am saying, is it is far more likely for me to rest a large target (DK) compared to a small target (Diddy) given the chances. Perfect resting doesn't significantly change any matchup in vBrawl. I can't imagine why it would in BBrawl.

Now I question Ren. If your knowledge of Snake is "playstyle based on trading %'s" Maybe find more experts on mains for their feedback. Even one person (EG: Praxis) will not know everything. Pester Edreese (spelled wrong I bet. ) and Niko. Pester Deva - not just Legan.

I know you have your limits on that, and you may in fact might have. But now ask yourself:
"Have these players taken changes of other characters into consideration? Have these players played BBrawl? Do these players understand the changes it would cause to every matchup?"

On a much more light-hearted and sincere note:
I understand you put a lot of hard work into the project. I know what it's like to put in a lot of hard work and have someone call you stupid/your work ****. Face it, there will be people like that. <_<

 

[Metatitan]

The main issue is that just because we haven't played BBrawl you expect we have no knowledge about it. The physics are the same and changes are done so that the character fights the same. So honestly if you are buffing or nerfing the wrong things, I think it is fair for us to tell you that your changes are stupid. Yoshi's forward air ground planting them? His F Smash is still pretty weak compared to what it should be, why would a free F smash help? What we'd need is a back (or even better, back and forward) throw with killing potential of ness' and yoshi would need shield drop frames equivalent to everyone else. Neither of what he needed was changed.

You expect us to play the game and experience these changes because that's pretty much how it works for brawl+. But you said so yourself, it is the same game aside from you guys trying to make characters better. So yes, I think even people who havent played the game yet can tell you if a nerf or buff is stupid.

 

[Thinkaman]

Except even the most educated assumptions are still just that: theoretical assumptions. I don't think anyone here is actually arrogant enough to look at a change on paper and actually think they can know how it is going to effect every matchup. Balance isn't easy.

I've fallen into this trap myself several times... I jumped to conclusions and made changes that I just *knew* would change this matchup or help in a particular situation... and then they did not.

I underestimated Wario's nerfs, like pretty much everyone did. I way overestimated Ivysuar's bair buff early on. I underestimated Snake's first u-tilt nerf. I underestimated some Zelda changes that were being tested, and Zelda would have been undeniably overpowered if I hadn't yielded.

I misjudged the Jigglypuff rest buff, and only after experience could I take it out. Early on there was a Jigglypuff air dodge buff that Ampharos argued strongly for, but testing showed that to be not helpful, especially against her bad matchups. I tried a roll buff that I was POSITIVE would turn the G&W and Marth matchup around by bringing f-roll + grab speed within range of some of their attack durations, but when it tested bad I had to admit that it wasn't good either...

At one point we were testing ice missiles on Samus, after a Samus secondary suggested it. It became very controversial, with about half the testers and myself thinking it was awesome (after they saw the followups Samus was doing out of them) and the other half and Ampharos thinking it was too big of a change. In the end, although it was mainly the Samus secondaries pushing for it, we had to put it aside in favor of the Samus mains and their existing super missiles habits.

Another silly idea that had to be put aside was making Rest a spike. I had fun with that. I think for awhile I convinced myself of how it was a big help in certain matchups, somehow.

It's really easy to look at failed things and see how wrong they are in retrospect, especially when our personal biases create many to begin with. Myself and Ampharos both had ideas that initially seemed really stupid to the other, but with testing proved to be... really stupid. But until we were confronted with evidence, players playing the matches in front of us, the personal bias remains.

You'll see it in the thread every once in awhile; a tester will propose some asinine change that everyone else immediately sees as obvious. (Linkshot asked for Nikita to be nerfed... ) In reality, we're all guilty of this.

The most we can hope for when looking for the truth is to get the aggregate feedback and experience of as many players as possible.

On a much more light-hearted and sincere note:
I understand you put a lot of hard work into the project. I know what it's like to put in a lot of hard work and have someone call you stupid/your work ****. Face it, there will be people like that. <_<

Thanks. I mean it.

 

[Metatitan]

I understand how hard it must be testing but you must realize that your game is designed to make bad characters better. To do this you have to take what makes that character suck and make it better. Yoshi needed OoS and killing power and you guys failed to provide him with this. Sure egg braking is nice but weight was not his issue.

 

[Thinkaman]

You say this as if there is only one path to fix Yoshi. That is not at all true.

Yes, Yoshi's shield is a weakness. However, it is not at all a crippling weakness any more than Jigglypuff's weight is. It's perfectly reasonable for that weakness to exist, especially given Yoshi's amazing defensive game otherwise.

Yoshi is doing very well in the current release. The extra damage is really what helps him more than anything.

 

[illinialex24]

**** you Susa.

 

[SuSa]

If you can tell me what type of tests I am talking about. Kudos.

EDIT:

illinialex243 (11:52:52 AM): lol I dont fail
illinialex243 (11:52:58 AM): that was all intentional lol
illinialex243 (11:53:04 AM): so what if I failed the tests
Invokke08Havokk (11:53:10 AM): ........ brb
illinialex243 (11:53:13 AM): I knew they were coming
illinialex243 (11:53:14 AM): lol
Invokke08Havokk (11:53:44 AM): I hope you like the new Jigglypuff social topic.
illinialex243 (11:53:54 AM): lol Ill check it out
illinialex243 (11:54:16 AM): response
Invokke08Havokk (11:54:23 AM): lmao
illinialex243 (11:54:27 AM): lol

 

[illinialex24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wU27oAzsuo&NR=1

 

[illinialex24]

I intentionally failed a test, I will reward anyone who can legit find it out with a good *** story. Milk, Susa, and Chibo are out of this lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

I can only assume it involves a girl.

 

[SuSa]

Am I allowed to give hints Alex?

 

[illinialex24]

IM me first the hint, I told Noob so he's out too.

 

[Metatitan]

You say this as if there is only one path to fix Yoshi. That is not at all true.

Yes, Yoshi's shield is a weakness. However, it is not at all a crippling weakness any more than Jigglypuff's weight is. It's perfectly reasonable for that weakness to exist, especially given Yoshi's amazing defensive game otherwise.

Yoshi is doing very well in the current release. The extra damage is really what helps him more than anything.

Actually you're wrong. Yoshi's shield in fact is a crippling weakness. Sure it's useful but compared to other characters it's garbage. His defensive game is not amazing, if you can't get past it you obviously don't take advantage of his enormous blind spot. Extra damage on his grabs and tilts is needed, but what he really needs is OoS and consistent KO moves. Those should have been your top priority. But still thanks for trying, yoshi's a pretty difficult character to understand

 

[SuSa]

Thinkaman. He can think, I think.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wow, that was ridiculous alex. Major kudos. Hahahaha...

 

[illinialex24]

He's a thinker.

 

[Thinkaman]

I still can't believe what the principal said, nor that you got away with it.

EDIT: Wait if you think that gives away too much I can delete it.

 

[illinialex24]

What the hell Thinkaman????????

 

[Metatitan]

You spent the majority of your time with a girl. And you two did nothing because you can't eat wheat and she can't eat dairy. You guys didn't want to see livestock and get swine flu. You tried to go to a woods but it was blocked off. You then went to a target built solely for your school and you helped her shop for scented candles. You helped her pick out hair mousse and then you took a trip down the wii isle. Then you talked to some hot chicks about alcohol. Then you decided to hang out with friends instead of going to a movie with her after.

This is just a completely random guess btw.

 

[illinialex24]

Lmao!!!!!!!

 

[Noobicidal]

This is just a completely random guess btw.

i c wut u did thar.

 

[Thinkaman]

So much for mindgames...

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's start a new game. I'll think of a number between 1 and 1000. The first person to guess it wins nothing.

Go!

 

[illinialex24]

If someone can name what this spells, I'll reward you:

Give me an S.
Give me an E.
Give me an X.

Whats that spell??

 

[Thinkaman]

Xes? As in, Xes and Oes?

EW COOTIES.