Illegal Tournaments

[Banks]

Hey, I was just reading this magazine article about videogame tournaments. Turns out that "nine states do not allow participation in skill-based videogame tournaments for cash prizes" and these states include Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Iowa, Maryland, North Dakota, Tennessee and Vermont . *revised list.
I was just wondering if these laws are ever enforced or if anyone has ever gotten shut down by the popo. (not the IC's)

 

[TheManaLord]

rofl I have heard stories about stolen money and filing police reports about (smash money for the tourny and then them having a problem with it) but nothing past that.

Kinda really lame.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

Sounds like brawl tournaments are still allowed lolol.

Jk, but ****. Why is there even a law like that?

 

[Banks]

well, gambling is illegal as most people know. most states have differentiated "skill based" game competitions from gambling so you can run tournaments but the states listed have not and they fall under gambling laws.

 

[Lib3r4t3]

That makes a bit more sense.

 

[Banks]

"Is this legal?

Because the games that are being played for cash prizes are games of skill and not games of chance, this is completely legal. However, there are 9 states within the United States where the participation in skill-based video game tournaments for cash prizes is considered illegal. If you live in the following states, you may not play for cash prizes:

Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Iowa, Maryland, North Dakota, Tennessee and Vermont"

from the FAQ of a random gaming site when i googled, altho the state list is a bit different...

 

[AlphaZealot]

Umm...

MLG goes to Florida every year. They would have been busted already. They have a legal team to tackle all this stuff anyways.

Do you have links to any of this stuff?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

And devistation in pheonix this summer has like 10000$+ in various tournaments hope nothing bad happens.

 

[Banks]

I just typed straight out of OXM (Official Xbox Magazine) May 09 issue, pg 87. Obviously no one here will have that but here are some links which have different state lists as i said in my second posts. I think maybe the magazine made a mistake in listing states... idk...:

look here: http://www.gamersaloon.com/tou.php under "LEGAL COMPLIANCE"

and here: http://www.h3gameline.com/faqs.php#general2


the original state list was wrong, florida isn't on those. but in OXM it is, probably just them not being correct


in arizona specifically there are some stipulations:
4. Games of Skill
Games of Skill include billiards (“pool”), darts, trivia, or other intellectual games. Usually, the participants bet among themselves and the winner of the competition receives the amount wagered.
Games of Skill are illegal if the host of the event receives a fee for services provided or if all the money wagered doesn’t go back to the participants.

http://www.gm.state.az.us/TopGamingViolations.pdf


but it could be different for every state, if anyone wants to look into that, i'm going to sleep soon >_>.
burrito, the phoenix tournament would be technically illegal if the venue took a cut of the entry

 

[D1]

Lol there are tourneys always in MD/VA for mad different fighters. And I know AZ has numerous tourneys for games too these laws aren't enforced so its aight.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

^Exactly, nobody would ever actually push it. It's nowhere near worth the effort.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I found a good source on this.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/

I'm pretty sure that games of skill are allowed by federal law so we only have to worry about the relevant states. I have looked up information for the assorted states and can confirm that, unless some lawyer really butchered these laws, smash tournaments for cash should be allowed in most states as long as you don't bet on other people's games. I also consider the elements of chance in smash bros to be sufficiently minor as to be ignorable for legal purposes via the commonly accepted standard that sports played for money are legal (football, for instance, starts with a coin flip). To be clear, I am NOT a lawyer in any way; I am reading the laws as written. Also, I am only looking at the states in the Midwest minus North and South Dakota (which have absolutely no known smash scene) and plus Kentucky, Oklahoma, and Texas which are significant to the Midwest smash scene.

Pretty definitely legal: Missouri, Kansas, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Texas

Iowa's gambling laws are ridiculously opaque and obviously incredibly out of date. This is what I believe the section that may permit smash bros tournaments is section 99B.11. I believe you could consider a smash tournament a "similar contest, league, or tournament" under section 2d. It is clearly within the "spirit" of the law given section 2e. I can't say for sure our style of tournaments are legal in Iowa, but I think you'd have a good case.

Nebraska's gambling laws are super opaque too, but if I read it correctly, it seems to suggest that contests in which the prize depends on the number of entries (i.e. all smash tournaments) are illegal. Someone more familiar with the law might want to look into that.

Michigan state law is stupidly opaque and seems to make dumb things illegal if I read it right (like selling decks of cards or dice). It seems to bar pretty much any contest with a cash prize which would logically include smash bros tournaments, but maybe someone else should read over it.

I'm pretty sure Oklahoma's law is allowing it though it's not clear. It doesn't make a specific exception for skill based games, but it does define a bet as being chance based.

To sum it up, we have the following three categories (remembering that I'm not a lawyer):

Definitely legal: Missouri, Kansas, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Texas
Probably legal: Iowa, Oklahoma
Seemingly illegal: Nebraska, Michigan

Further investigation would be welcome. I suggest people from other regions do similar research for their own regions. Of course, these laws are pretty much never going to be enforced on us; the bigger laws we would have to worry about would be tax evasion for tournament winnings. Still, it's good to know.

 

[BombermanFanatic]

Even if it's illegal, I doubt anybody will get busted for it. I live in MA, a state well known for it's silly llaws in NE. Nunchaku are illegal, yet there are plenty of Martial Arts tournaments where participants perform with weapons. If they cared, they could go and bust every person there, but they don't. They (for the most part) have much more important things to do. The only way I see somebody being charged for illegal gambling is if a fight broke out and somebody got stabbed.

 

[fkacyan]

Most of the places in which its illegal seem to not have active scenes.

Also, I doubt the Smash community would even have an issue if we did. I think we're above trying to ruin everybody else's fun if we don't get what we want, etc etc, by reporting a tourney. I also think this would be pre~ty low on an officer's priority list.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Most of the places in which its illegal seem to not have active scenes.

I take offense at that.

 

[fkacyan]

I take offense at that.

How is it offensive? Small, not-densely-populated states will tend to have less active scenes than those with high population densities.

I doubt North Dakota is the epitome of the active competitive gaming world, myself.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Person taking me seriously on the internets

I was looking at the first list Banks posted when I read that, which includes two of the states I live and smash in or near. So it was more a sarcastic "yeah our scene sucks but you don't have to say it out loud" than anything serious.

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

LOL

MD/VA has sooooooo many tourneyz

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

That's odd. I know the United States Chess Federation basically does the same thing, but with chess instead of video games. Most USCF tournies are anywhere between $50 to $200 to enter, with payouts at over $100k at the big events. Whats more is they break them down into categories. There is the "open", usually featuring Grandmasters (GMs) International Masters (IMs), Senior Masters, Masters, and usually Experts (basically people rated 2000 and up, but usually 2200 and up). First prize in the open can be up to 25k. Then there is the A class division (1800-2000). First prize can be up to 10k. B class (1600-1799), and C class (1400-1599) again, both can be up to 10k first place. Then are the lesser (noob) type players, D class (1200-1399) and E (basically everybody 1199 and under. These are mostly children in the E class, or beginners. They usually win less for first prize than the other divisions, but are often the largest and basically fund the prizes for all the GMs and IMs.

Most people that play in USCF rated tournies never see 10k payouts, but will pay $200 just for the chance to compete. And these are usually just average joes we're talkin...

But anywho, I'm pretty sure competitive chess tournaments are allowed in every state. I wonder why video game tournaments are treated any differently?

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

Now that I actually read this, luck based video games are banned from tourneyz but not skill based?

Watch someone call 911 and report a tourney after they lose a tourney match cause of a 9, gordo, misfire or trip, xD

 

[Banks]

so i guess the moral of the story is, no one enforces laws like this. thanks to ampharos for digging up that info.

this one time at a rhode island tournament, the URI campus shut down the whole event after low tier because they saw money exchanging hands and said the tournament could only continue without cash prizes. so kdj and cort went to wendy's to get their money and the rest of the tournament had to be free. so even though it wasn't state law, URI considered the tournament as 'gambling'. stupid

(but since kdj/cort/darc all ended up leaving i got 2nd and a huge silver medal on AiB so i guess it worked out..lmfao)


and poyo, that's why only brawl tournaments are illegal JUST KIDDING

 

[Strong Badam]

ziv's post

wow ziv, you know so much about competitive chess.

it'd be ridiculous if someone actually brought this to trial. the jury would no doubt be like "yeah, no. **** that." and end with "innocent"

 

[nevershootme]

so i guess the moral of the story is, no one enforces laws like this. thanks to ampharos for digging up that info.

this one time at a rhode island tournament, the URI campus shut down the whole event after low tier because they saw money exchanging hands and said the tournament could only continue without cash prizes. so kdj and cort went to wendy's to get their money and the rest of the tournament had to be free. so even though it wasn't state law, URI considered the tournament as 'gambling'. stupid

(but since kdj/cort/darc all ended up leaving i got 2nd and a huge silver medal on AiB so i guess it worked out..lmfao)


and poyo, that's why only brawl tournaments are illegal JUST KIDDING

Same issue got tossed in my face for this

In janurary I held a tournament at my university (FIU, Miami, FL. last august was 61 entrants, this time was 45) and I ran it as normal... Then when I tried holding another one, I was told I can't run another one cuz it was considered gambling..

I was given the notice about the FL law and it states

Whoever by herself or himself, her or his servant, clerk or agent, or in any other manner has, keeps, exercises or maintains a gaming table or room, or gaming implements or apparatus, or house, booth, tent, shelter or other place for the purpose of gaming or gambling or in any place of which she or he may directly or indirectly have charge, control or management, either exclusively or with others, procures, suffers or permits any person to play for money or other valuable thing at any game whatever, whether heretofore prohibited or not, shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Now I called BS on that because there are more rules of the law on that. Now in order for me to even get it running again (Regardless I'm not running anymore brawl tournaments at my school since i'm graduating). I had to go through the higher-ups of the university!

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Florida/ (My reference)

now I read through everything on that site and words involving skill apply to amusement machines (coin operated, a la Arcade). Barely any mention whatsoever about console games! Most of the law mentions cards and games of luck... so wtf

But, the law states that one can't bet on the outcome of a game (Lets say, I bet $500 for such and such to win the tournament

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

The only reason it's illegal is because it would be too hard to tax.

 

[Problem2]

@Nevershootme:

849.085 Certain penny-ante games not crimes; restrictions.--

(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it is not a crime for a person to participate in a game described in this section if such game is conducted strictly in accordance with this section.

(2) As used in this section:

(a) "Penny-ante game " means a game or series of games of poker, pinochle, bridge, rummy, canasta, hearts, dominoes, or mah-jongg in which the winnings of any player in a single round, hand, or game do not exceed $10 in value.

(b) "Dwelling " means.. * * * The term "dwelling" also includes a college dormitory room or the common recreational area of a college dormitory or a publicly owned community center owned by a municipality or county.

(3) A penny-ante game is subject to the following restrictions:

(a) The game must be conducted in a dwelling. (College recreational area)

(b) A person may not receive any consideration or commission for allowing a penny-ante game to occur in his or her dwelling. (May not charge venue fee)

(c) A person may not directly or indirectly charge admission or any other fee for participation in the game. (I do not believe the entrance price is really a fee since it will all become prize money. It's essentially the money you are betting with)

(d) A person may not solicit participants by means of advertising in any form, advertise the time or place of any penny-ante game, or advertise the fact that he or she will be a participant in any penny-ante game. (Don't advertise on campus grounds)

(e) A penny-ante game may not be conducted in which any participant is under 18 years of age. (Ask for proof of ID)

(4) A debt created or owed as a consequence of any penny-ante game is not legally enforceable.
(Watch the money carefully, because the law won't help you if it disappears)

(5) ... * * * (Unimportant)

 

[AlphaZealot]

Basically here is all that matters:

1) It isn't gambling according to almost every single state
2) It isn't gambling according to federal law
3) No one shuts down tournaments because of this, and when they do shut down tournaments its likely simply a campus official MISUNDERSTANDING the law and believing this is a game of luck and not a game of skill, or seemingly being idiotic and not understanding how to discern the difference between the two.
4) MLG over the years has run tournaments in: NV, CA, MD, FL, NY, OH, IL, TX, AL, PA, NJ, and probably a couple other states. The big fish would probably be targeted before us little guppies.

 

[illinialex24]

Wow this is idiotic. Talk about a dumb rule.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

wow ziv, you know so much about competitive chess.

it'd be ridiculous if someone actually brought this to trial. the jury would no doubt be like "yeah, no. **** that." and end with "innocent"

Yeah, 6 years of competitive tournament chess on the national level will do that to you.

 

[ph00tbag]

Iowa's gambling laws are ridiculously opaque and obviously incredibly out of date. This is what I believe the section that may permit smash bros tournaments is section 99B.11. I believe you could consider a smash tournament a "similar contest, league, or tournament" under section 2d. It is clearly within the "spirit" of the law given section 2e. I can't say for sure our style of tournaments are legal in Iowa, but I think you'd have a good case.

Also in Iowa state law:

2. A contest is not lawful unless it is one of the following contests:

e. A video machine golf tournament game which is an interactive bona fide contest. A player operates a video machine golf tournament game with a trackball assembly which acts as the golfer's swing and determines the results of play and tournament scores. A video machine golf tournament game is capable of receiving program and data information from an off-site location. A tournament operator shall prominently display all tournament rules.

looooooooooooooooool, video machine Golf MM $5 if I ever end up in Iowa. Don't worry, it's definitely legal.

 

[Doggalina]

Most of the places in which its illegal seem to not have active scenes.

Arizona...

 

[nevershootme]

@ Problem2

I forgot to mention that I was working with the University Student Center's Game Room and they were in need of people wanting to run tournaments, they provided the advertising around campus and provided 3 TV's in addition to 2 TV's that were in the room. It was the staff that handled the money

Sorry I forgot to iinform about that situation, and no I didn't do it as a underground thing, and there have been previous tournaments that happened at the school (melee, multiple fighting games) in the past 2-3 years

 

[Impact Clash]

I actually have a story to add to this whole thing:

When I ran my tournament (Impact Clash 2) in Atlanta, GA at the World Congress Center a lady working for the Congress Center came in and started asking me questions about my event. I explained to her the jist of it and she left. Well, come to find out she told security that I was having a gambling competition and so apparently the police were called and came to the room. Luckily, I was standing outside of the room at this time no one saw this whole thing. The GA World Congress Center security along with a policeman came and asked me what was going on. I told them what was up about the door fee and the entry fee to the games, etc. etc. etc. They told me that wasn't considered gambling as long as the person in charge (i.e. the tournament director) did not participate in the tournament. But if I were in it then it would not be legal.

Secondly they stated that directly betting on a match (i.e. money matching) was not legal either. We were not openly doing either (And I don't think they had any intentions of actually finding out anyway) and they left. The whole thing took about five minutes to explain and that was it. Long story short, no one really cares to shut down a tournament over something like that. Someone actually called the police on me and they just asked a few questions and that was it.

 

[Leafplayer452]

I dont think Maryland, because we have tournies going on here like at least twice a month, even we had BTYF here and nothing happened, but my dad says HOUSE tournies are illegal

 

[metalmonstar]

I suggest you don't take this as law. It is better to find out yourselves by asking people who would actually know. Tournaments in Maryland are legal as I came to find out. So I think the people who live in the other states where tournaments are supposedly illegal should look into it more closely.

You can find out more about my method of research and findings in my thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7174100#post7174100

 

[Technical MachineS]

I dont think Maryland, because we have tournies going on here like at least twice a month, even we had BTYF here and nothing happened, but my dad says HOUSE tournies are illegal

Explain Chu Bi-Weekliez then. They are almost alwayz at his house. **** doesn't happen. Trust me, Critical Hit 4.5 was at MY HOUSE, we had no legal issues.

 

[Rain(ame)]

I can see why HOUSE tournaments could be considered illegal. One of two reasons:

1.) Lawful occupancy...yatta yatta....fire hazzard...etc.
2.) It could be seen as some kind of underground gambling situation.

HOWEVER, again...the point of the matter is that people have nothing to worry about for the most part. The worst possible thing you could come across are pissy neighbors that don't know how to mind their own friggin' business. I, unfortunately have such a situation. ('cuz I live in an apartment) So a house tournament from me would be small...(like 8-15 people) and long as freak. Plus, we would probably have to keep the noise down come 9pm, xD.

All in All...a lot of things we do COULD be considered as illegal, but unless a person has no life (like the person in Impact's story) I doubt there'd be a problem. Tournaments COULD be considered as illegal, but we as a community know how to run tournaments efficiently. We aren't exactly introverted and secretive about it, we openly explain what's going on, we invite others to look. Even the police in my area...well surrounding ones (P'burg cops aren't bad....washington and clinton...not so sure about) wouldn't have a problem with it.

Gotta love dumb laws, though.

 

[Levitas]

I've been an MI TO for 3 years now, and have NEVER heard of a smash or other videogame tournament being shut down in MI yet. I've hosted tournaments with friends, through businesses, and attended ones hosted by the University of Michigan, and there are weekly tournaments held by Ann Arbor's libraries (though I'm not sure that *they* give cash prizes).

The odds of any MI tournament being shut down on an enforceable law that targets smash tournaments on the merit of them being tournaments and not something else (like noise or a public disturbance) are 0% as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hyper-Marth]

I've been an MI TO for 3 years now, and have NEVER heard of a smash or other videogame tournament being shut down in MI yet. I've hosted tournaments with friends, through businesses, and attended ones hosted by the University of Michigan, and there are weekly tournaments held by Ann Arbor's libraries (though I'm not sure that *they* give cash prizes).

The odds of any MI tournament being shut down on an enforceable law that targets smash tournaments on the merit of them being tournaments and not something else (like noise or a public disturbance) are 0% as far as I'm concerned.

Are we only talking about minors for all this gambling stuff? Because the only laws that matter are the ones that say under 18 lol. Obviously you can gamble in michigan, i love going to play Blackjack and Video poker .

 

[Sukai]

I've been an MI TO for 3 years now, and have NEVER heard of a smash or other videogame tournament being shut down in MI yet. I've hosted tournaments with friends, through businesses, and attended ones hosted by the University of Michigan, and there are weekly tournaments held by Ann Arbor's libraries (though I'm not sure that *they* give cash prizes).

The odds of any MI tournament being shut down on an enforceable law that targets smash tournaments on the merit of them being tournaments and not something else (like noise or a public disturbance) are 0% as far as I'm concerned.

Michigan is full of pimp like that.
From what I've heard, no kind of issue has popped up like that.
It isn't really gambling.
It's competition, plain and simple, on some technicality, some ******* can make it look like gambling, but Michigan isn't full of tight *****, which is more than I can say about the listed states.

 

[Deleted member]

If we're lucky, maybe we can get Brawl tournaments eradicated from existence via random tripping interpreted as chance.

BRB Supreme Court.