Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[YagamiLight]

Ganon has more damaging moves. Ganon's uair is mighty good. Ganon has a stronger spike.

Ganon's one dair equals Ike's jab > jab > jab combo

We don't beat Ganon in every single category. And Light perhaps you're underestimating Ganon. I won't say since I never actually met a Ganon main in person. But I am inclined to say in Ike's favor 6-4 minimal.

I think Ike's Dtilt is about equal in spiking power to Ganondorf's Down Aerial (Or close enough), plus the cinematic lag on that Dair can be SDIed out of easily, IIRC.

Yeah, the Dair does beastly damage but I think on a move to move basis Ike still wins out damagewise, the Dair is an outlier.

I try not to underestimate characters, I attempt to be as objective as possible. Ganondorf has less range than Ike, does not have disjointed hitboxes like Ike, has a worse recovery than Ike, is weaker than Ike (The only character he's weaker than), is less mobile than Ike, has a much poorer zoning game than Ike, has a much worse OoS game. For all practical purposes Ike is better in close to every category.

Ganon isn't ****, but I find it hard to believe it's not a 65-35 match our favor. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and not say 70-30.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

ganon's Dair does 24%? We do beat ganon in everything its not like he has more combos than us how the hell is uair going to combo better than jab?

edit: ganon's spike is stronger but our recovery makes it easier to break out of and if we do we hit back with our own spike which sets up more spikes.

 

[YagamiLight]

ganon's Dair does 24%? We do beat ganon in everything its not like he has more combos than us how the hell is uair going to combo better than jab?

Ganon's Dair does 23% (22% in Melee). It's pretty intense but with Ganondorf's aerial speed landing it is easier said than done.

 

[Ussi]

Don't forget Ganon has side B tech chasing.... its a pain to get caught in that...

But Ike's utilt should stop everything lol..

 

[Bnzaaa]

Ice Climbers vs. Ike

It's difficult for the Ice Climbers to get inside. Ike has a sword. A giant one. That hits hard .

The Ice Climbers can do their best to keep him out with Blizzards, and force him to approach with Ice Blocks. But Ike's range is good. F-Air is generally safe and has great shield knockback, and N-air autocancels (I think) and can lead to a Jab, which splits them up well.

Once Ike gets the Ice Climbers in the air, it's hard for them to get back down. Up-Air and Up-Smash are hard to avoid, due to the Ice Climber's slow falling speed. And killing shouldn't be a problem either. And once Ike gets rid of Nana, the match becomes greatly in Ike's favor.

The Ice Climbers can use Blizzard and Squall Hammer (if it hits, most of Ike's attacks beat it out) to rack up major damage. They can also juggle Ike decently due to his weight. There's also the chaingrab.

6-4 in Ike's favor seems about right.

 

[Ussi]

Bnzaaa has first hand experience

fsmash is like broken in this match up

 

[Steeler]

just thought i'd mention

hotgarbage (guy responsible for lots of frame data)

has found that ivysaur's bullet seed has invincibility from frames 1 through 3, and hits on frame 4



(gets the last laugh)

 

[SaltyKracka]

just thought i'd mention

hotgarbage (guy responsible for lots of frame data)

has found that ivysaur's bullet seed has invincibility from frames 1 through 3, and hits on frame 4



(gets the last laugh)

Somehow I doubt this.

 

[Rykoshet]

I wouldnt.

 

[HeroMystic]

The real question is does it even make a difference.

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't doubt hotgarbage's info, dude knows what he's talking about.

Of course, it has little effect on everything since it still won't aid in stopping the jab combo without cancels. And, same as with Marth, if he tries to use it when you predict it, he's getting Fsmashed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't doubt hotgarbage's info, dude knows what he's talking about.

Of course, it has little effect on everything since it still won't aid in stopping the jab combo without cancels. And, same as with Marth, if he tries to use it when you predict it, he's getting Fsmashed.

Eh, the thing here is, if he's got invincibility frames up until the hitbox comes out, so if he's not in hitstun the entire time, he can bullet seed out of it.


Similar to how Marth can ^B out of some jab combos.


Which leads to the question IS Ivysaur in hitstun for the entire jab combo?

 

[Kirk]

Eh, the thing here is, if he's got invincibility frames up until the hitbox comes out, so if he's not in hitstun the entire time, he can bullet seed out of it.

Similar to how Marth can ^B out of some jab combos.

Which leads to the question IS Ivysaur in hitstun for the entire jab combo?

No one can escape the full jab combo(with no SDI, they are in hitstun the entire time).

1st Jab --> 1st Jab is also inescapable(with no SDI).

Anything else(I.E. 1st Jab --> anything except 1st or 2nd Jab |AND| 2nd Jab --> anything except 3rd jab) is fair game to be interrupted, given the opponent acts as soon as he is able to.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No one can escape the full jab combo(with no SDI, they are in hitstun the entire time).

1st Jab --> 1st Jab is also inescapable(with no SDI).

Anything else(I.E. 1st Jab --> anything except 1st or 2nd Jab |AND| 2nd Jab --> anything except 3rd jab) is fair game to be interrupted, given the opponent acts as soon as he is able to.

Then yeah, then don't do anything except finish the combo or cancel into first jab and you'll be fine.


Ivysaur for his part should be mashing neutral b, so if you do anything other then the basic jab combo or 1st jab-->1st jab you'll get punished.

Since Ike's jab frame 3, the only way to use this other then as simple punishment is to predict Ike's jab. If you predict wrong, you get badly punished.


So cool, but utlimately useless info for this match-up.


PT guys, you might wanna take a second look at your falco match-up with ivysaur with this info however. Marth can up-b out of his chaingrab and jab combo for exactly this reason, it seems pretty likely that you can neutral be out of it.

 

[Kinzer]

Maybe we should move on to another character... we've gotten enough info on ICs, and about the core of all that info was "don't get grabbed."

Maybe somebody who is really technical to revive this thread, you're all doing whatever by this point because of lack of participation.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lets do Sonic.

 

[Steeler]

PT guys, you might wanna take a second look at your falco match-up with ivysaur with this info however. Marth can up-b out of his chaingrab and jab combo for exactly this reason, it seems pretty likely that you can neutral be out of it.

good idea. thanks adumbrodeus.

 

[Ussi]

Idk if there is invincibility frames :\ I had a Marth dair right through BS when I did it. Vids please.

 

[MysticKenji]

Bullet seed has invinc on 1-3 and hits on 4
Marth Dair hits on frame later-than-4

>_>

 

[Ussi]

Marth had obviously initiated Dair before I did BS (it was today). I don't believe it until I see a video.

 

[YagamiLight]

Come now Ussi, it's easy to test.

I started a match in regular group mode with myself.

(The following is done by holding down the buttons and unpausing, to guarantee the same frame of startup)

1) Attempt to jab with Squirtle at the same time as Ivysaur, Ivysaur wins out.

2) Be on top of Ivysaur and have Marth counter, Marth wins out.

3) Dolphin Slash while next to Ivysaur, DS has invincibility until frame 5, DS wins out.

4) Note that Ike's jab (Which hits 3-4) clashes with it, so this all makes sense.


DING DING DING

 

[Barge]

Uh, this is a bad matchup for ike because almost all of ice climbers moves out prioritize his?
The only thing ike has got on ice climbers is medium range melee attacks and jab game.
=/

Theres my 2 cents.
70-30 ice climbers at the most.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Uh, this is a bad matchup for ike because almost all of ice climbers moves out prioritize his?
The only thing ike has got on ice climbers is medium range melee attacks and jab game.
=/

Theres my 2 cents.
70-30 ice climbers at the most.

You....really don't know anything about Ike.

 

[Rykoshet]

Last IC that told me they were 70-30 on me lost pretty badly, next time I ran into them they were like "this is ike's advantage".

 

[HeroMystic]

Come on, Barge. You know better than that.

 

[YagamiLight]

You know that feeling where you haven't gotten any sleep for almost two days (43 hours, right about) and then you see something that totally shocks you and almost gives you a heart attack?

That just happened with that 30-70. I should get to bed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Idk if there is invincibility frames :\ I had a Marth dair right through BS when I did it. Vids please.

Marth had obviously initiated Dair before I did BS (it was today). I don't believe it until I see a video.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6324916&postcount=19

Probably missed the bullet seed invincibility frames.

Better then vid, pictures, so it's easy to see what's going on.

You know that feeling where you haven't gotten any sleep for almost two days (43 hours, right about) and then you see something that totally shocks you and almost gives you a heart attack?

That just happened with that 30-70. I should get to bed.

Lol, get some sleep dude.

Speaking of which, got a tournament tomorrow, better get some sleep myself.

 

[Palpi]

There is a different style against IC. Shielding a fair or a nair = your grabbed and you lose. I have been doing better against Ice Climbers, but I still find it annoying. Jab works woders.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is a different style against IC. Shielding a fair or a nair = your grabbed and you lose. I have been doing better against Ice Climbers, but I still find it annoying. Jab works woders.

Not against Hylian's ICs. THATS how he got me. I think I was too predictable against his ICs, he kept perfect shielding my jabs and then tossing me around. I actually got out of the grabs a number of times on the other hand....

 

[Ussi]

Lets move on now! We have discussed this long enough.

 

[YagamiLight]

Lets move on now! We have discussed this long enough.

I'm lucky I decided to log on.

Alright Ussi, since I like you (no homo), you have the honor of choosing the next character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I hate to be a bother but the Sonic forums have started a discussion on Ike. Any input would be lovely.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=239

 

[Ussi]

Well, lets just do Sonic if they are doing us as well... This is gonna be ugly though..

 

[Rykoshet]

If it's malcolm - you get 3 stocked.

If it's anyone else, it's 50-50.

 

[§leepy God]

Oh Sonic, that's a harsh battle because his speed and good shield poking, but his little hit box jake's his advantage over Ike, so I will say at least close to even, or maybe Sonic's hands.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Uh, this is a bad matchup for ike because almost all of ice climbers moves out prioritize his?
The only thing ike has got on ice climbers is medium range melee attacks and jab game.
=/

Theres my 2 cents.
70-30 ice climbers at the most.

lol your a ****en moron.

Why are we talking about PT again? the match up is still **** for Ike. I 2 stocked the PT who went to final smash 5 from the valley both times we played. Granted the guy doesn't really stick with him in tournaments he goes snake and MK in the later rounds and I don't think he used PT after pools.

I also think that Ike can beat out rock smash with forward air. I remember clashing with it but hitting before he smashed the rock and Ike's Fair just canceled out the hit box in it. my eyes might have been playing tricks on me but it might just be something else Ike can do in this match up.

 

[Rykoshet]

You know how you beat out rock smash? You counter the ****ing thing.

 

[Er!ckLZ]

....totally


stop making speeches, brethren

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

Geez i thought sonic waz the Antogonist here not IC's -_-.

I hate facing sonic although i only have trouble with one sonic against my ike.

 

[comboking]

Has anyone done Combat walk to F-tilt on Lucario. It works depending on your opponents damage and their DI. They won't escape if the CW is only 2 jabs.