Ussi
Smash Legend
Combo... that doesn't exist in brawl.. Or for Ike...
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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness
- Thread starter YagamiLight
- Start date
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
.................. No..........................
Oh wait, unless you mean like, they smash DI towards you the entire time, then just stand still whenever you're doing the ftilt, in which case, yeah, it's a combo.
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
That should tell you that it's not a combo right there.
Ussi
Smash Legend
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6341054#post6341054
there is the Ike vs Sonic discussion, at the end it came to 50:50
there is the Ike vs Sonic discussion, at the end it came to 50:50
Johrune
Smash Cadet
Is there any chance of a chart being made for quick reference?
-Johrune
-Johrune
§leepy God
Smash Master
Wow, so what else to do? I know we can't just wait it out... can we?
Ussi
Smash Legend
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
We move on according to the will of the people. This is a democratic 100% American thread that promotes individualism and free thinking.
Or this could actually be a secret totalitarian regime headquarters thread and I could be conditioning you so as to make you THINK you are perfectly happy and have choices, wheras the community means much more than you do.
But in reality it's just a topic. On a subforum. About a character. In a game. By a company. In a city. In a country. In a hemisphere. In the world. In the galaxy. In the universe.
So tiny...is it not? This...multitude of degrees of separation.
If you read all of that you probably need to find something else to do, but until then whoever posts fast enough and/or has nothing better to do can suggest the next character.
Or this could actually be a secret totalitarian regime headquarters thread and I could be conditioning you so as to make you THINK you are perfectly happy and have choices, wheras the community means much more than you do.
But in reality it's just a topic. On a subforum. About a character. In a game. By a company. In a city. In a country. In a hemisphere. In the world. In the galaxy. In the universe.
So tiny...is it not? This...multitude of degrees of separation.
If you read all of that you probably need to find something else to do, but until then whoever posts fast enough and/or has nothing better to do can suggest the next character.
Ussi
Smash Legend
lets do Bowser, I am wondering how that will go.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
No one has anything to say about the Bowser matchup lol
Don't get grabbed
Ussi
Smash Legend
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
That's all we care about to this day, that's why you still don't see numbers here.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Well, the guy who made the Bowser's Match-up topic said he believed Bowser is an Ike CP. >_>
Granted, I think that topic is really old.
EDIT: Like, so old it's no longer up so I'm not even sure it's the right board. >_> <_<
mass lulz
EDIT: Like, so old it's no longer up so I'm not even sure it's the right board. >_> <_<
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
No, I'm pretty sure I saw that ages ago.
But then again, most people ages ago considered themselves Ike CPs.
MrEh
Smash Hero
This is actually very good advice. Don't get grabbed by Bowser, ever. You'll be chaingrabbed right to the ledge, where you definately don't want to be at.
Oh, and Fire is probably the most annoying thing about this matchup. Fire outranges and beats almost everything, so do you best to avoid it. Ike has no reliable method of getting through the Fire like Jiggs, Marth, and Luigi do, so you'll just have to DI out of it.
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
Okay.
Ike vs. Bowser can be really gay for Bowser, or really good for Bowser.
It depends on one thing:
If Bowser gets jabbed by Ike it almost always over after that. Bowser is easily jab locked by Ike and thus gets ***** by it. I play Renegade on a regular basis and when he uses it, it's usually either a stock, or well over 40%.
Now, if the Ike doesn't want to (or can't) jab lock, then the matchup is fairly even. Bowser's up b out of shield ***** Ike's approaches, which includes fair, dash attack, etc.
Bowser can have a hard to getting close to Ike if the Ike knows how to properly space his fairs, etc against him. But when Bowser gets in close, it usually spells trouble for Ike.
Basically, if Bowser grabs Ike there is a possible chain grab (if I remember correctly). Out of this chaingrab when releases on the edge results in a fair off stage if performed correctly.
Bowser's ftilt does not out range Ike's, I believe, but it is faster. At close range we'll probably try to either ftilt or jab you. Try to shield it and grab or whatever it is you Ikes do, lulz.
Up B OOS can be the difference between a loss or win. An improperly spaced fair can result in a good 16% on Ike undiminished. Use your sword to your advantage by keeping as much range as possible between our shield and your attack.
As said before, your jab tears us apart. Regardless, we are able to up b out of it eventually, but you can just chase our DI and punish with mroe jabs or a grab.
Ike has some good moves to get in on Bowser, but Bowser is faster in most ground moves while Ike's are faster in the air. Space well, and punish hard. Bowser could try and get a little campy if he sees jabs so don't be so obvious with them..
I'd say either 50/50 or 55/45 Ike.
Ike vs. Bowser can be really gay for Bowser, or really good for Bowser.
It depends on one thing:
If Bowser gets jabbed by Ike it almost always over after that. Bowser is easily jab locked by Ike and thus gets ***** by it. I play Renegade on a regular basis and when he uses it, it's usually either a stock, or well over 40%.
Now, if the Ike doesn't want to (or can't) jab lock, then the matchup is fairly even. Bowser's up b out of shield ***** Ike's approaches, which includes fair, dash attack, etc.
Bowser can have a hard to getting close to Ike if the Ike knows how to properly space his fairs, etc against him. But when Bowser gets in close, it usually spells trouble for Ike.
Basically, if Bowser grabs Ike there is a possible chain grab (if I remember correctly). Out of this chaingrab when releases on the edge results in a fair off stage if performed correctly.
Bowser's ftilt does not out range Ike's, I believe, but it is faster. At close range we'll probably try to either ftilt or jab you. Try to shield it and grab or whatever it is you Ikes do, lulz.
Up B OOS can be the difference between a loss or win. An improperly spaced fair can result in a good 16% on Ike undiminished. Use your sword to your advantage by keeping as much range as possible between our shield and your attack.
As said before, your jab tears us apart. Regardless, we are able to up b out of it eventually, but you can just chase our DI and punish with mroe jabs or a grab.
Ike has some good moves to get in on Bowser, but Bowser is faster in most ground moves while Ike's are faster in the air. Space well, and punish hard. Bowser could try and get a little campy if he sees jabs so don't be so obvious with them..
I'd say either 50/50 or 55/45 Ike.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Just shoot Fire at him. Seriously.
jk
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
^ lol yuhs. I forgot about fire.
FIRE AND U WQIN
10sarcasms
FIRE AND U WQIN
10sarcasms
Ussi
Smash Legend
Is it possible to jump break/EIDI out of the CG? Since Ike can jump before landing/lands farther away.. but you do get 10 more frames... Care to elaborate?
Also Isn't bowser's grab range pretty average? Good for a spacing Ike.. still Up B OoS is pretty annoying.
Jab lock for life <3
Also Isn't bowser's grab range pretty average? Good for a spacing Ike.. still Up B OoS is pretty annoying.
Jab lock for life <3
MrEh
Smash Hero
lol, owned
In all seriousness though, Fire is too good in this matchup.
With a EIDI influenced Ground Release, Bowser still can grab Ike. If you Jump Release, Bowser can still grab Ike. So it's pretty bad either way.
His dashing grab has good range, but massive lag afterwards. His normal grab is pretty pathetic, besides from grabbing really high.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Well, just a random note about Fire: Don't get into a using Fire VS charging up QD match. Fire will loose every time. XD Not that it should happen, but that came up during the *shutter* PT discussion.
I would believe Ike can gimp Bowser easily. Reverse aether should be able to take care of Bowser's Up B, unless he has a trick I don't know about. Or Dtilt for that matter, as I think it would hit before Bowser grabbed the ledge.
I would believe Ike can gimp Bowser easily. Reverse aether should be able to take care of Bowser's Up B, unless he has a trick I don't know about. Or Dtilt for that matter, as I think it would hit before Bowser grabbed the ledge.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Ussi
Smash Legend
Well with Jump break I believe we'll take less damage. That's note worthy.
Ike still is a spacing monster to avoid being grabbed. You should see Ike vs IC xD
MrEh
Smash Hero
Yeah, but the damage the chaingrab does is pretty crappy to begin with. The chaingrab's main form of usefulness is to get Ike to the ledge and grab release aerial him. (or tilt)
Yup, I know. Bowser's similar in that sense.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
You make it sound like that matters when recovering. The invincibility frames are the first 5 IIRC. Ike's spikes won't come out till frame 18+Fortress has invincibility frames.
How does Bowser regrab Ike from a jump break? Can we not jump after we break out and are forced to touch the ground?
Ussi
Smash Legend
He did say it grabs high. Yoshi can grab us before we can jump so I'm not surprised.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Bowser grabs very high, so he actually ends up grabbing Ike while he's still in the air. If I remember correctly, Ike regains control when he touches the ground, or gets close to it.
Both Bowser's normal grab and dashing grab grab very high, so he can grab people in the air pretty easily. Bowser has the added perk of being able to 0-death Ike, whereas Yoshi does not. (unless you include that spike thing he can do)
Ussi
Smash Legend
Ike does not have to touch the ground, but close enough to be high grabbed.
What is this 0-death? grab release to koopa claw off stage having more damage to control the DI?
Spike can't happen unless Yoshi grabbed Ike out of his 2nd jump.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Haha, figures. I knew there was a catch with that spike thing.
Pretty much. After a chaingrab, a Klaw can be done out of a ground release and a jump release with good spacing towards the ledge. Even in you have the advantage in % and you DI onto the stage, it still launches Ike off the stage, where he most likely won't want to be.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Wouldn't it send him upwards if it landed on stage? In which case, Ike could be able to recover fairly well. >_> It wouldn't send him into a dead zone or anything like that. How good is Bowser's off stage gimping game? I wouldn't imagine him being able to go out far.
Ussi
Smash Legend
I always figured Bowser would go for the fire edgeguard.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Only if you DI that way, which you should be doing. Massive damage is pretty much the consequence of the "chaingrab into Klaw". 0-death is a novelty, the positioning advantage it gives is one of the perks.
No, it wouldn't. If you aren't Bowsercided by the Klaw, then you can definately recover easily as long as you DI upwards. The problem is that it launches Ike upwards, and Bowser loves fighting opponents above him. So try to get grounded as fast as possible. You definately won't want Bowser below you.
Bowser does edgeguard fairly well (FIRE!), but as far as gimping goes, he probably won't be jumping around offstage all that much.
The only potential gimp I can think of is running off the ledge into an Fair, but obviously, that's not the most reliable of gimps.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
How would Bowser attack Ike if he was recovering from above. I'm trying to see how usable Dair, Counter, or Eruption would be. Dair, obviously can out range a lot of things. Counter is counter, and Eruption has the massive hitbox and SAFs.
As well, how would Bowser attempt to get back if knocked off the stage. Like, from the various angles that aren't a dead zone. Does he have any tricks (besides Koopa Claw) to try to avoid being spike'd?
As well, how would Bowser attempt to get back if knocked off the stage. Like, from the various angles that aren't a dead zone. Does he have any tricks (besides Koopa Claw) to try to avoid being spike'd?
MrEh
Smash Hero
You mean when Bowser recovers high? Or when Ike recovers high?
Lets see...
At a general 90 degree angle, Bowser can usually make it back with his Fortress. (this is probably your best bet at spiking him) It's unlikely that Bowser will be knocked at this angle though, since most Bowser players will abuse Bowser's weight and just DI torwards the corners. While this is a general thing that works with all characters, it helps Bowser a ton, since he was already heavy to begin with, and this makes him survive for a long time.
Most of the time Bowser will be knocked at something like a 45 degree angle if the Bowser player DIs well. Bowser can usually make it back to the stage quite easily if he's knocked at this angle. Although it doesn't seem like it, Bowser's aerial speed is pretty decent and the Fortress pushes him a surprising distance. Recovering high is actually a good idea for Bowser, since he can just Bowser Bomb the ledge.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Well... If Bowser uses Bowser Bomb, Ike can aether, course why would Bowser do such a thing when Ike is right there now, right? course I can QD to the ledge and follow up with anything lol
MrEh
Smash Hero
Is Ike hanging on the ledge? The Bomb won't be attempted if you're grabbing the ledge. XD
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Ike could just be standing by the edge. Aether would **** Bowser from there.