Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Arturito_Burrito]

Kool but it seems like you think Ike has very little on lucas or at all.

1. Ike's do not use QD when they are in a gimping position. Mediocre Ike's shouldn't be using it at all because I doubt they know how to.

2. What would happen if Ike does a reverse aether? I really don't know.

Fire camping shouldn't be as bad as falco's laser camping and dash attack goes trough PK fire and hits you.

Not familiar with this Dtilt lock how does it work because this does sound deadly.

I don't think Ike's jab can be punished by any Fsmash. Unless its like the 3rd one but who finishes the jab combo anymore?

Nair to jabs I'm pretty sure that they aren't better than Ike's and Ike's can be shield grabbed.

stuff? well how about things.

 

[Levitas]

You misunderstand. I got interrupted mid post by scotu nagging me about something, so I didn't get to more than one of Ike's solid points. He's the Ike I have most experience againt, btw.

1. The very fact that Ike has to use it sometimes is a detriment to his game against lucas. It might not be critical in more than 10% of games or so, but it happens.

2. reverse aether makes the PKT have to trave about 5-8 frames farther to hit ike. It still works. The key with the PKT gimp is that it doesn't work if Ike can recover a bit higher, and it takes time to set up, so it won't happen if you just traded blows and ended offstage.

3. Fire camping isn't as bad as falco's laser camping, but Dash attack doesn't work well for that purpose. Dash attack is better for when the lucas didn't space the PKF correctly, and is now in lag within a dash attack length away and you shield the PKF

4. Dtilt lock: Dair > missed tech > dtilt to edge > fsmash. Works at ~ 100 on most characters (fall speed dependant), which is right when we need it. Don't get daired at high percent, and if you do, don't miss the tech.

5. I'm gonna have to check the relative damages of an jab vs an uncharged stick, but iirc, the stick does actually punish unspaced jabs. The moral of the story is don't jab more than 3 times in a row for no good reason.

6. Jab is frame 2. Nair autocancels, and has a lot of hits. Ike's isn't nearly as good as lucas's, even with its autocancel.


Back onto the other things I was gonna say.

Ike's nairs >>> lucas's nair, so if lucas spams nair as an approach and he's not on you yet, just SH nair towards him. it beats him pretty much every time.

Lucas's rope snake can be hit, so if you're feeling flashy and the lucas is naive, just dtilt the ropesnake.

Don't go offstage to edgeguard lucas, it won't work.

Do punish lucas's usmash with forward smash. it does work.

Lucas doesn't have great options to use against spaced nair and jab approaches, and that's what Ike's about. His grab does help to augment this.


The game goes to whoever controls the stage better. Lucas doesn't effectively punish usmash, jab, nair, grabs, or fair.

I'd go somewhere evenish. I lean towards lucas in this matchup, but I really don't think that's personal bias. The camping, gimping, and combos to death thing can really be trouble for Ike, even if he knows it's coming.


Edit: Ike jab frame 4ish with IASA on 17 for 4% damage

Lucas fsmash frame 14 with 15% damage.

Lucas's spaced fsmash can definately punish through an Ike jab.

 

[Ussi]

Edit: Ike jab frame 4ish with IASA on 17 for 4% damage

Lucas fsmash frame 14 with 15% damage.

Lucas's spaced fsmash can definately punish through an Ike jab.

Shouldn't Ike's 2nd jab be able to hit lucas then? it should be faster than jab cancel and Ike does his "combat walk" so it attacks farther then his first jab.

And burrito, I don't really jab cancel that much, I just finish the combo.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm going to have to back up Ussi here. If you're ever in a position to get use your Fsmash against Ike's third jab, then the Ike you're playing isn't that good. If an Ike catches you in a jab combo, you're not getting out fast enough to set up an attack which (IIRC) actually has less range than the third jab.

 

[Ussi]

Most Ike's will grab after the 2nd jab, if not the first when its shielded.

 

[HeroMystic]

If the jab is shielded, I just cancel and do it again to apply shield pressure, especially if the opponent's grab range is crap.

Lucas shouldn't be getting a free F-smash regularly.

 

[Guilhe]

Don't go offstage to edgeguard lucas, it won't work.

Why? His UpB has SA frames? His trajectory when recovering seems to be very easy to identify, I don’t see why not walk off Fair, Dair or Eruption.

 

[MysticKenji]

Why? His UpB has SA frames? His trajectory when recovering seems to be very easy to identify, I don’t see why not walk off Fair, Dair or Eruption.

Zap Jump and Magnet Pull

 

[Levitas]

It's pretty much better to stay more or less onstage and hope he doesn't have the ability to go too high with his zap jump to flat out recover over you. The point where you know lucas will recover to most is at the edge/a bit above the edge.

As for the jabs, you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying get out of a jab that connects then fsmash, I'm saying predict a jab combo and space it so the Ike misses and your fsmash hits their jab. This does work, especially given how attached to his jab Ike is.

Heromystic, you'll note that lucas's grab range is not crap, and if you do that kind of "shield pressure", you're likely to get grabbed.

 

[Ussi]

well we Ike's are very keen about spacing, so we know if jab will hit or not. We'll use a different move instead. But again this is getting us no where taking about spacing.

 

[Levitas]

No, it's legit. All lucas has to do is react to a missed jab. voila, punishment. Although optimally, the lucas will predict a jab and outspace the ike, I guess that's not really what the matchup's about.

 

[Ussi]

well Ike can just space back and voila, harder punishment. Ike has better damaging moves for punishment so yea, spacing is a key thing, but Ike wins out in general for spacing.

 

[HeroMystic]

As for the jabs, you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying get out of a jab that connects then fsmash, I'm saying predict a jab combo and space it so the Ike misses and your fsmash hits their jab. This does work, especially given how attached to his jab Ike is.

You're making it sound as if Ike's jabs are slow and can't be canceled. Why would Ike continuously jab if it misses (Unless you're spot-dodging)? Better yet, why would Ike jab at all if it's out of range?

We don't use jabs for offensive purposes. We use it for defensive purposes with an aggressive outcome. If you move in close, you -will- get jabbed.

The only offensive thing we do with Jabs is the N-air > Jab combo. Otherwise Ike will be using his tilts and aerials for offensive purposes.

I understand the PK Thunder gimping (since I've done some research), but the whole punish jab thing is... odd. You'll have to explain this in extensive detail. Does Lucas "predict" this jab and run away and turn around to do an F-smash?

Heromystic, you'll note that lucas's grab range is not crap, and if you do that kind of "shield pressure", you're likely to get grabbed.

I was adding onto Ussi's previous post, which is semi-unrelated to Lucas.

And Lucas' grab range, for a tether, is pretty crap. Practically one of the worst tether grabs. Not only that, but it leaves him vulnerable, especially if Ike predicts it. Free F-Smash?

 

[Levitas]

If Ike misses with a single jab, he has 17 frames before he can take any other action. I'm assuming that optimal action would be a dash grab, although SH nair would be a better idea in this case.

Fsmash would happen before the dashgrab. SH nair would punish the fsmash. There were flaws in my argument, and you pointed them out. you win this round, sir.

Now I was responding to the jab jab cancel pressure. lucas does punish this with a grab. Pivot grabs leave him far less vulnerable if we want to talk about lucas's grab game in general.



How reliably can Ike get a grab out of a jab cancel on lucas?

 

[HeroMystic]

Now I was responding to the jab jab cancel pressure. lucas does punish this with a grab. Pivot grabs leave him far less vulnerable if we want to talk about lucas's grab game in general.

Understood. No need to refute that since it's true.

How reliably can Ike get a grab out of a jab cancel on lucas?

Depends on how close Lucas is when he gets caught in the jab. Jab > Jab > Shield-Grab works on Lucas if he's close. If he's far out, Ike will have to Dash grab which is not so reliable.

Grabbing mostly relies on prediction and are not true combos unless it's a shield-grab. Ike has many choices out of his jabs cancels, but he'll mainly use grabs and U-tilt. Maybe even F-tilt if you're that inattentive.

I tend to just finish the combo because it's guaranteed to hit.

 

[Kirk]

Depends on reaction. I may be mistaken, but one CAN get out after a jab --> grab...even if they are up close. Options would be...jabbing before the grab, jumping(if you happen to be airborne after the hit), or maybe even spot dodging. Same holds true for jab jab --> whatever...most of the time you can just jump.

Thought I still have to test Ike's jab stun to see if this is in fact true.

In the end, the main reason jab --> grab/more jabs works is because people's first instinct, when they get hit by the first jab, is to shield ASAP. This, or they simply do not react fast enough in the heat of battle. If you're shielding, you won't get the fastest possible action and/or will get grabbed because of it. Slow reaction is self explanatory.

Feel free to correct me if you guys don't agree. Thought I'm pretty sure it is VERY escapable with proper reaction time.

 

[HeroMystic]

Feel free to correct me if you guys don't agree. Thought I'm pretty sure it is VERY escapable with proper reaction time.

I'm not entirely sure on the shield grab myself, but everything else is true. It's mainly based on mindgames.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well if you count tournament reaction time of 6 frames then the lucas can't really react to a missed jab. 20 frames are > 17.

 

[_clinton]

I like the pics in this thread...but really...I enjoy fighting a good Ike ^_^

And he really is underrated IMO when it came to fighting Lucas and Ness...I'm glad the Ness boards changed their minds...

 

[Levitas]

I see a gameplan of jab jab grab, and a grab release that guarantees jabs. It was reasonable that I would wonder if Ike could reliably chain lucas across the stage like this, but fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[XACE-K]

I see a gameplan of jab jab grab, and a grab release that guarantees jabs. It was reasonable that I would wonder if Ike could reliably chain lucas across the stage like this, but fortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Ike's jabs are effective so you will see them if you get in his face. As for the chain, with bad DI or playing badly Ike probably can do this. If you play smart, than this won't happen.

 

[Guilhe]

If Ike misses with a single jab, he has 17 frames before he can take any other action. I'm assuming that optimal action would be a dash grab, although SH nair would be a better idea in this case.

Jab cancel. With shield preferentially.

 

[Levitas]

The jab cancel is what I was saying leads to the grab, which is good for Ike. We've been over the fsmash punishing Ike's jab, and it really doesn't work.

Now, since we ARE assuming competent players on both sides, Ike won't be jab>grab>jab chaining lucas more than once in a row.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The jab cancel is what I was saying leads to the grab, which is good for Ike. We've been over the fsmash punishing Ike's jab, and it really doesn't work.

Now, since we ARE assuming competent players on both sides, Ike won't be jab>grab>jab chaining lucas more than once in a row.

Most likely not, but when a full jab combo nets Ike an easy 16% or more, it adds up quite quickly.

 

[Levitas]

Don't worry, a nair to jab combo does 12-27 damage depending on the number of hits. That can add up rather quickly, too.

 

[HeroMystic]

So now we're debating who racks up damage faster? <_<

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Don't worry, a nair to jab combo does 12-27 damage depending on the number of hits. That can add up rather quickly, too.

Ours does 25%+ haha!

 

[Levitas]

Ours does 25%+ haha!

OMG AUGH!!!1!!1!

So do we still want to not talk about matchup numbers? Where do people feel the matchup lies right now?

 

[•Col•]

OMG AUGH!!!1!!1!

So do we still want to not talk about matchup numbers? Where do people feel the matchup lies right now?

Dunno, dun care.

 

[HeroMystic]

So... Lucas...

-PK Fire *****.
-Uses N-air > Jab just like how Ike does.
-Capable of "easily" gimping Ike.
-Able to D-tilt Lock heavy opponents with a D-air spike setup.
-Hard to edgeguard? (Kinda disagree with this)

 

[XACE-K]

OMG AUGH!!!1!!1!

So do we still want to not talk about matchup numbers? Where do people feel the matchup lies right now?

I really don't care about the match-up ratio but to me, I would say anywhere from 45:55 disadvantage for Ike to 55:45 advantage Ike. As long as it's near 50:50, I'm okay with it.

So... Lucas...

-PK Fire *****.
-Uses N-air > Jab just like how Ike does.
-Capable of "easily" gimping Ike.
-Able to D-tilt Lock heavy opponents with a D-air spike setup.
-Hard to edgeguard? (Kinda disagree with this)

Yep. As for hard to edgeguard, he can perform PKT easier and not mess up due to it being easier to control. But he can still be easy to edgeguard at times.

 

[Guilhe]

So, I’ve gone to youtube see some videos and visited Lucas boards to gather some info. That Zap jump and magnet pull sure are interesting recovery ATs but they leave Lucas very vulnerable afterwards and he can travel farther and more safely through PKT2in most cases. And about gimping with PK Thunder, even Ganondorf could make it back after being struck by it with a good amount of DI. But he was hit head on with the PK thunder, so I don’t know how it would work if he was hit by the hitbox at the side of the PK Thunder… (got video?)

I’m now doubtful about the gimping game. I believe edgeguarding with Ike is plausible. Which other methods for gimping does Lucas have? Dair and PK fire?

 

[Guilhe]

Yep. As for hard to edgeguard, he can perform PKT easier and not mess up due to it being easier to control. But he can still be easy to edgeguard at times.

Wouldn't Dair or Erution hit him through the PKT2?

EDIT: ****! Double post. Seems like Down B has some pushing effect when the barrier is abandoned.

 

[Ussi]

just ike's nair > Lucas's nair, so Ike wins a nair battle.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas can zap jump to Magnet pull to recover high over a full hopped Ike Nair, even from a considerabe distance below the edge, and that's w/o the PKT2.

Lucas is hard to gimp.

 

[Ussi]

Lucas has to recover far enough to be out of Ike's offstage reach to not gimped. Granted Lucas CAN do that just don't underestimate where Ike can go. Also Ike can counter PKT2 as you recover. Lucas is open during his zap jump if Ike can predict and intercept it if Lucas recovered close to the stage.

 

[fox219]

For me, Ike's best matchup is Dedede. Why? Because you can easily d tilt him when he recovers. Dedede is also so fat you can't miss! lol! Best to use f-tilt to kill on faster characters since f-smash is very slow. Good luck brawling!!!!!

 

[•Col•]

For me, Ike's best matchup is Dedede. Why? Because you can easily d tilt him when he recovers. Dedede is also so fat you can't miss! lol! Best to use f-tilt to kill on faster characters since f-smash is very slow. Good luck brawling!!!!!

1. We're done discussing DDD.
2. DDD is like Ike's 3rd hardest matchup
3. Ftlit, what?

 

[Levitas]

For the record, if you want counter to work, you have to space it at the end of his PKT2, or else the next hit will get you before the counter starts. Yay multihit attacks.

 

[Kinzer]

Was about to say, only Ness' PKT2 is more easily countered than Lucas'.

Anyway forget matchup numbers, let's all agree on something moreorless neutral?