Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[•Col•]

....space your self.
...Cus real lucas mains wont let you get close.
...we will out rang you.
.....you will get gimped.

SOOOOOO

Get close to lucas and dont let up. Thats the only thing i can think of really.

Err.... Why would you exactly have to space yourself if you want to get in as close as possible? ._. And you contradict yourself.... ". . . real lucas mains wont let you get close", then "Get close to lucas and dont let up . . ."

....Wtf?

 

[Kinzer]

Oh God, I'm afraid the Lucas boards are just as informed about Ike as we are about Lucas.

For one thing, the first guy doesn't know that being hit out of Quickdraw's helplessness state actually revives us? *Cough* We actually have to use QD first for that @#$% to happen...

Although I have to admit, Lucas seems like he has a lot of multi-hit moves and the stuff to keep us at bay.

I think what the other guy meant was keep close but still keep as far as hiting range will allow.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm telling you, this won't end well.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Lucas out ranging us? am I missing something here.

I know he can use his projectiles but I've never heard of that used in as a spacing move just for camping.

edit: lol stupid kinzer hitting PK fire throws us into the helpless state.

I'm not comfortable with this choice either yagami you've failed.

 

[Kinzer]

Grrr, I'm going to test this out, I'm positive that PK Fire does not send people into a helpless state in the air...

 

[HeroMystic]

Grrr, I'm going to test this out, I'm positive that PK Fire does not send people into a helpless state in the air...

You never played a good Lucas huh? Lucas' PK fire has special properties that put Ike in a helpless state after QD. It's another reason why we don't use QD at all to recover.

Spoiler

10lols

 

[ZMan]

I don't generally contribute to matchup threads but I will say this: PK thunder ***** Aether. It WILL knock Ike out of it the second the SA frames give up.

 

[Kinzer]

Let's just hope Lucas uses PK Thunder where Ragnell will hit him huh?

 

[ZMan]

A good Lucas won't be in the range of the Ragnell.

 

[Kinzer]

True, but some people don't know that...although this is a character matchup, not a player matchup...so yeah...(I can already tell we're probably going to be at another disadvantage...)

Maybe there's hope if we don't get knocked offstage.

 

[HeroMystic]

Most of the cast can gank Ike offstage. This is nothing new and isn't the end-all-be-all to adv/disadv.

EDIT: Also, all that really does is help us with the good use of proper DI. Lucas' PK thunder is only good for it's wtf-damage, not so much for gimping.

Moving on...

 

[XACE-K]

Time to talk about sissy boy.

-PK thunder can gimp you so watch out for that.

-His b-air and third kick of d-air can spike. They're not the strongest but still strong enough to spike you.

-Always try to gimp him when he's recovering. If you miss, you can expect a lot of damage if he hits you.(although it can help you recover if you went far enough.)

-PK Fire can be a pain for some aerial approaches. Try to hit him from above, below or behind when going from the air.

- Lylat is a pretty good CP aginst him.

 

[Kinzer]

Alright, I figure I'll just shut up and only talk when a misconseption of Ike pops up...still need to test that PK Fire junk though...

 

[XACE-K]

Alright, I figure I'll just shut up and only talk when a misconseption of Ike pops up...still need to test that PK Fire junk though...

It doesn't put you in a helpless state. That person was dumb and has no clue about Ike's metagame.

 

[HeroMystic]

Why did you tell him!? D= That was as hilarious as the time when he wanted to know how CPU defeated Ken!

Speaking of Ken... *watches Survivor*

 

[Kinzer]

Why you sonofa!

Anyway did I ever mention something about Ken or CPU? Also who is CPU, I honestly have no idea who he is...time to go investigate Youtube!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*goes off to see what Lucas board has for this match-up in their match-up topic*

Ike (11 top8, 5 top4, 2 wins, 36 pts)
Ike is my favorite matchup in the game. Wavebounce pk fires and he can't touch you. If he wants to close the gap from afar with a side b, just sit on a platform or get behind him from the air. Avoid his smashes, especially his usmash. Always recover to the edge, never onstage. Watch for his fast utilt, jab combo, and bair, and dodge everything else.

*facepalm -> headdesk -> pencil trick combo*

Ness boards aren't any better. They believe they have the biggest advantage against Ike last time I checked. As in, a better advantage then against Captain Falcon...

This is NOT going to end well....at all.

1) Almost anyone can screw up Ike's recovery. This does not equal instant advantage. Get over it already, even though you Lucas mainers haven't really said much yet....

2) Projectiles =/= instant 100/0 Advantage Lucas. Not by a long shot.

Don't have time currently to post anything much bigger, but I want to get those two points across.

 

[XACE-K]

Why did you tell him!? D= That was as hilarious as the time when he wanted to know how CPU defeated Ken!

Speaking of Ken... *watches Survivor*

I heard CPU used Random to beat Ken.

Anyway, Lucas is high tier on the best hair tier list. And his u-smash is scary move coming from a little kid.

Edit @Nintendo: You do realize most other character boards are still stuck in Brawl's April metagame when it concerns most low tier characters?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.......*points to the first part of my sentence in my sig*

That is all until sometime later when I has more info for this match-up.

 

[Kinzer]

Ouh, no need to be so mean, I've had my fair share of PK Thunder kills, can you blame me...?

Besides, of course projectiles won't give an instant advantage, but consider Lucas has a nice aerial game...just don't get so close as already mentioned.

Edit: Wait a minute, was Arturito playing along Hero?!

 

[HeroMystic]

Edit: Wait a minute, was Arturito playing along Hero?!

Would you believe me if I said no?

 

[Hoser]

Ness boards aren't any better. They believe they have the biggest advantage against Ike last time I checked. As in, a better advantage then against Captain Falcon...

Ness boards re-evaluated this match-up, and even used their brains :0

They now say it's 45:55 Ness.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was talking to Lucas Mainers in general in an attempt to head off the usual "lulz, we has projectile, we wins we pwnz you noobs".

I believe Lucas could have a Dtilt lock on Ike due to it's speed. Pull off maybe 15% at lower %s? I wouldn't know the exact number, but I believe it's fast enough to rack up some damage.

There is that Air-release Fair (I believe it was on Lucas, right?) to consider as well.

Lucas has a fairly good set of tricks to recover with. Zap Jump, PSI Magnet Pull, his good jumps, and PKT2. I believe he can airdodge during the Zap Jump which would making him harder to gimp. Between all of those, except for extreme vertical heights, there isn't a lot of places he can't recover from. Combined with the fact he's fairly heavy (at least to what you would expect), he can be fairly difficult to KO if the move doesn't right out kill Lucas.

His Up Smash is the second strongest Up Smash KOing wise, with only Ivy beating it. As it, it's strong then our Up Smash. Thankfully, if he misses, there is a LOT of lag. I believe possibly more then the lag Ike has after his Up Smash. And it has less range. I believe he can Hyphen Smash it fairly well, so watch out for it. Fsmash is strong, but not as strong as Ness's (IIRC), and can reflect projectiles, so keep that in mind if playing at Green Greens or Distant Planet.

While he has a nice air game, it's not as good as Ness's, and his spikes are less powerful.

I honestly think Ness would be the harder of the two but this is the Lucas match-up. And we need smart Lucas Mainers over here...

EDIT: THANK GOODNESS. Last time I saw it, it was 7-3 Ness.

 

[ZMan]

Um, that was from the old Lucas Matchup thread. Here's the new summary v Ike:

9. Ike: 60-40. Ike has alot of range, alot of power, and he's pretty heavy. But his recover and approach options stink, and Lucas is very capable of abusing both of those. The most important tool in this matchup are properly spaced PK Fires. Also, the moment Ike misses with an attack is when you should immediately rush in for a counterattack, as Ike has quite a bit of lag after alot of his attacks. Once you get Ike offstage, use your projectile of choice (Freeze and Fire for Side B recovery, Thunder for Up B recovery) to gimp him (Which is incredibly easy). Basically, just be defensive, taking every advantage you got. Be warned that a missed Up Smash will earn you a FSmash to the face, which in perfectly capable of KOing you at around the 50% mark.

 

[•Col•]

Um, that was from the old Lucas Matchup thread. Here's the new summary v Ike:

9. Ike: 60-40. Ike has alot of range, alot of power, and he's pretty heavy. But his recover and approach options stink, and Lucas is very capable of abusing both of those. The most important tool in this matchup are properly spaced PK Fires. Also, the moment Ike misses with an attack is when you should immediately rush in for a counterattack, as Ike has quite a bit of lag after alot of his attacks. Once you get Ike offstage, use your projectile of choice (Freeze and Fire for Side B recovery, Thunder for Up B recovery) to gimp him (Which is incredibly easy). Basically, just be defensive, taking every advantage you got. Be warned that a missed Up Smash will earn you a FSmash to the face, which in perfectly capable of KOing you at around the 50% mark.

Well, at least that is A LOT better than the old one... xD

 

[S.D]

Watch out for Lucas' PK fire projectile game, it will be spammed.

Lucas' jab combo is faster than anything Ike has, so at close quarters expect this to be the weapon of choice.

Ike's recovery is too easy for Lucas to gimp, try counterpicking stages where this becomes irrelevant.

Well spaced forward airs are going to be a safe option, even if you hit Lucas' shield there is enough knockback to prevent a shield grab. That's all i can think of right now...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I actually remember that if QD and PK fire collide off the stage Ike just swings at it and goes into helpless. I'm pretty sure I'm right but if not meh.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, at least that is A LOT better than the old one... xD

>_>

<_<

Then whey is the old one still up in the first place? Sheesh....

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, that Lucas tidbit is better than the previous for sure. Though 4-6? I'm not convinced it's that, especially with the new grab release bit.

And as for the Ness match-up, by the way, it most certainly isn't Ness's favor. Either even or 55-45 Ike.

But forget about ratios! We'll do that later.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm interested in how Lucas can "easily gimp" Ike's recovery.

You can DI PK Thunder, and Lucas' PK Thunder has ****ty knockback.

Enlighten me please.

 

[Blackbelt]

I'm the one who wrote that little tidbit (The 60-40 one), so I guess that's my contribution to this discussion.


Though I might add that

1. Yes, PK Fire will cause QD to just swing and leave Ike falling helplessly


and


2. Nair rocks, and it can autocancel into a jab combo.

 

[MysticKenji]

fighting lucas is so annoying
pk thunder gimp is so gaaaaaaaaaaaaay lol

 

[Iron Mushroom]

Can Lucas can do a succesful grab release+dtilt combo on Ike?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Hey YagamiLight, You shouldn't use Corneria on Marth either, he has his Dtilt infinite there, just saying.

 

[Ussi]

solid we infinite marth too silly.

Ness's put 45-55 cause Ref lost to an Ike in tourney 4 weeks ago

 

[Guilhe]

Summary

Don't forget to rush in after we use Nair or Fair.

 

[Kinzer]

Ah see, I keep quiet for a few hours, and people start contributing smart!

...No, I will not leave the Ike boards! I fight for Ike who fights for his friends, which I hope I'm one of them!!

 

[Tyr_03]

I despise playing Ike because of Infern who freaking ***** me way too often because he's plain and simple a better player than I am (plus I always seem to make the dumbest mistakes against him.)

Lucas's best weapon is PK fire so you should be able to perfect shield them every time or else you're going to get beaten easily. FH Fairs are useful for Lucas and make it difficult for Ike to space him. The same is true of FH Dairs which combos into Fsmash. You can jab our SH Nairs pretty easily if you're paying attention or if the Lucas player is being over aggressive. QD isn't going to get you much of anywhere because we can just pull out PK Thunder and put it in your way. Lucas can edgeguard with PK Fire or PK Thunder pretty effectively although my recent most common choice is to jump past Ike's Up B and Bair spike him from behind although I'm sure if predicted this could be easily avoided. If we get gimp kills it will most often be with PKT1 brought around for a stage spike so if you learn to tech you can avoid a lot of it. Once you get Lucas in the air you have a huge advantage. Basically any move you do will hit past Lucas's Dair which is his main way of returning to the stage from above so the only options we have are airdodging which you can also punish if you're paying attention, or going for a ledge which is risky as well. So your greatest advantage is when we're in the air. Ike can't really edgeguard Lucas in any way. If you're playing a Lucas player who is careless you can sit by the edge and charge your neutral B and hope that he uses PKT2 right into it at which point you release and destroy him with super armor frames. This can work against his tether as well if you time it just right.

People tend to underestimate Ike. Infern is a great player so I know better than that. I haven't played him in a while though and I've gotten tons better since last time so it'd be interesting to see how well I do now. If I was giving it a number I'd go 55-45 Lucas's favor. I believe that Lucas has an advantage but it is very small. I could maybe go 60-40 tops. A good Ike player can make this matchup even or easily beat a Lucas player of slightly lesser skill. I'm sure plenty would argue this but that's my two cents. I hope it helps you guys. Peace.

 

[S.D]

I'm interested in how Lucas can "easily gimp" Ike's recovery.

You can DI PK Thunder, and Lucas' PK Thunder has ****ty knockback.

Enlighten me please.

Different parts of pkt1 send you in different directions. It depends on how the Lucas player uses it, if done correctly it can stagespike or knock you too far away to recover. If theyre just running it straight through you its not so useful, the head and tail of pkt1 can be used to greater effect.

 

[Levitas]

Gimps on ike by lucas are as follows:

1. Ike QDs. Lucas PK fires. Fire triggers hit on QD, does not ignite due to QD's properties, Ike falls to death in helpless.

2. Ike recovers low via aether. Lucas uses PK thunder. PK thunder should be directly above the sword at about the time it reaches the top of its trajectory. PK thunder then loops down, hitting Ike in the back as he rises to catch the sword. Ike is sent upwards towards and into the stage, gets stagespiked if he doesn't tech, and dies. If he does tech, he can live (stage dependant).


Fire camping: Ike can't do anything about it until he's inside its effective range. He's slow and big, and without a projectile, the three things that say you're easy to fire camp.

Ike's weight used to be a problem, but we have a quick setup for a Dtilt lock (like a jab lock), and it combos into his death when he gets in range of dying.

Lucas's moves are fast, but Ike outranges lucas on the ground with his jab. You guys know not to spam jab predictably, though, and Lucas does punish this with an Fsmash.

Ike will often not be able to do much about Lucas's autocancelled nairs to jabs.

Stuff.