HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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@Asdioh: I find it amusing that you asked this and I look at your sig. XD
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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness
- Thread starter YagamiLight
- Start date
Kinzer
Mammy
And yet the Marth boards were trying to get Ike at a 65:35 disadvantage... :/
Anyway I do suppose that with Ike he has a chance since he is a Fire Emblem character maybe.
/sarcasm
Also we're always glad to help out people who want to use Ike at a semi-expert level.
Lol the Luigi pic is just too good.
How will you work your matchup? will you use the information from the previous topics or start from scratch?
How will you work your matchup? will you use the information from the previous topics or start from scratch?
Ussi
Smash Legend
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Previous topics will probably be referenced, but it's best to start from scratch here so we don't leave anything out.
And let me just say here now (before it becomes heated) that Luigi's fireballs will be used to annoy Ike's spacing. Nothing more, nothing less.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
Ok, here it is...
This is the guide I was talking about: A matchup guide from the perspective of both characters. If you think you know your character you can just skip his analysis and read only the opponent's. But please read both of them and inform me if the representation of the characters is lacking. Ok, prepare yourselves for the white wall of text!
Ike & Luigi matchup guide
Let’s first summarize the two characters traits that will come into play in this matchup.
Ike
• Fast faller;
• Heavyweight;
• Moves with high knockback and range, though most are very situational;
• Aerials with long reach and potential for zooning;
• Combo ability tends to zero in both air and ground;
• Limited and poor recovery options.
Luigi
• Floats;
• Lightweight;
• Powerful KO moves, but with very limited range;
• Much more combo and juggling potential than Ike;
• Recovery can travel farther and higher, but leaves Luigi vulnerable during execution;
• Has a projectile.
• Slow horizontal aerial acceleration in the air
Approaches
Ike
When taking the offensive, Ike players should be careful with their spacing in order to not get counter-attacked. When hit by these techniques while shielding, Luigi will slide away due to his low traction. Unable to respond immediately.
Nair
This is Ike’s general purpose tool for spacing and his most reliable move. It can be used when approaching, retreating and recovering. In other words, it should be used relatively often as it has no landing lag and can be used in conjunction with jab or Bair for true combos.
Fair
An alternative for Nair, Fair reaches farther and hits harder. It also has a shorter ending animation when landing due to the IASA frames.
Jab
This move is Ike’s fastest on the ground and can nullify or override some of Luigi’s moves. It also can be cancelled after the first or second hit to a grab, a tilt, more jabs, or used in conjunction with QD. Both this techniques won’t be much useful in a fight against a good Luigi because…
The Grand Viper (QD to jab approach) thingy: 1. If spaced incorrectly the ending lag will potentially get Ike killed. 2. When spaced correctly Ike will be too far from Luigi, and he will probably be throwing fireballs at him. 3. This fight will be close quarters anyway.
Jab cancel to grab: Ike can’t grab opponents from afar, so he has to travel a short distance after canceling the jab sequence in order to get the opponent in range. This gives Luigi a window for using his Nair, which kills.
Bair
This move has a smaller hitbox but higher KO power than the other approaches. I recommend players to save it from the decaying at least until the opponent build up some percentage, in order to get earlier kills. Also, note that it must be executed quickly. You know what to expect from an Ike with his back turned.
Luigi
Luigi should prioritize ground movement over aerial during his approach in this matchup. That’s because Ike’s advantage in horizontal movement and range is greater in the air than in the ground.
Dair to Nair
This is Luigi’s classic combo starter. Both hits can be performed even when short hopping and both of them are starters of true combos.
Tornado
Brief startup lag, packed with multiple hits and with the right amount of knockback for juggling. The flaws that don’t make this a variation of Metaknight’s whorenado are the characteristic ending lag and lower priority. Ike can interrupt it with ease using a SH Bair or aim for the ending lag and punish with Ftilt or a grab.
Dsmash
This is a fast move that hits under the shield, has good range and has ideal knockback for juggling. Combined with the sliding effect when performed walking, it is an effective approach when spaced correctly (it reaches farther than Ike’s jab).
Short hopped fireballs: A diversion that should be used by Luigi whenever he is outranged. This projectile has nothing special packed on it and its timing isn’t too strict.
Approach overview * Advantage to Ike*
Luigi moves are faster than Ike and he has much more reliable combos. But with Ike’s faster aerial and ground movement combined with long range aerials, Luigi will have to work much harder on his approach in this matchup.
Finisher attacks and edge guarding tactics
Ike
This is where this character shines. He is not dependent of his smashes for scoring KOs. All of his moves have powerful knockback and he has three meteor smashes. Of course, he may choose to use a smash attack and finish his opponent earlier, but he is not obligated to do so. Tilts can KO Luigi around 100% in Final Destination (taking DI into consideration) and he is also very vulnerable during the execution of his recovery moves. Ike players should watch out for his fireballs and the 1/8 of his side-B misfiring while attempting to gimp.
Luigi
This characters has very swift killers, bad spacing combined with laggy moves can get Ike out of the screen at 60%. His projectile doesn’t help much for gimping, so he might try to use his Bair in order to hit you before the Aether’s SA frames take effect or force an airdodge. He can also attempt to dive under Ike, jump and use his Tornado. Ike will be thrown against the edge of the stage if he gets caught. But that’s an extremely hard edge guarding technique especially if the opponent knows it and has meteor smashes.
KO potential overview *Advantage to Ike*
Once again the spacing plays a crucial role in this matchup. Luigi’s killers (Nair, Fire punch Fsmash, Usmash) have very limited range compared to Ike’s moves and his edge guard game requires him to chase opponents offstage, possibly getting himself gimped.
Counterpick stages
Stages with high ceiling (like Final Destination or Yoshi´s Island) or true ceilings limits Luigi’s KO effectiveness, as he has no horizontal killers besides his Fsmash (which still sends opponents in a relatively high diagonal). There is no particular stage Luigi can get a significant advantage over Ike.
Matchup overview
This should be quick. Luigi is outranged and incapable of sustaining too much damage, Ike’s weight makes him more combo friendly and his recovery is low tier. Ike’s range, mobility and KO potential give him the 60:40 over this matchup.
This is the guide I was talking about: A matchup guide from the perspective of both characters. If you think you know your character you can just skip his analysis and read only the opponent's. But please read both of them and inform me if the representation of the characters is lacking. Ok, prepare yourselves for the white wall of text!
Ike & Luigi matchup guide
Let’s first summarize the two characters traits that will come into play in this matchup.
Ike
• Fast faller;
• Heavyweight;
• Moves with high knockback and range, though most are very situational;
• Aerials with long reach and potential for zooning;
• Combo ability tends to zero in both air and ground;
• Limited and poor recovery options.
Luigi
• Floats;
• Lightweight;
• Powerful KO moves, but with very limited range;
• Much more combo and juggling potential than Ike;
• Recovery can travel farther and higher, but leaves Luigi vulnerable during execution;
• Has a projectile.
• Slow horizontal aerial acceleration in the air
Approaches
Ike
When taking the offensive, Ike players should be careful with their spacing in order to not get counter-attacked. When hit by these techniques while shielding, Luigi will slide away due to his low traction. Unable to respond immediately.
Nair
This is Ike’s general purpose tool for spacing and his most reliable move. It can be used when approaching, retreating and recovering. In other words, it should be used relatively often as it has no landing lag and can be used in conjunction with jab or Bair for true combos.
Fair
An alternative for Nair, Fair reaches farther and hits harder. It also has a shorter ending animation when landing due to the IASA frames.
Jab
This move is Ike’s fastest on the ground and can nullify or override some of Luigi’s moves. It also can be cancelled after the first or second hit to a grab, a tilt, more jabs, or used in conjunction with QD. Both this techniques won’t be much useful in a fight against a good Luigi because…
The Grand Viper (QD to jab approach) thingy: 1. If spaced incorrectly the ending lag will potentially get Ike killed. 2. When spaced correctly Ike will be too far from Luigi, and he will probably be throwing fireballs at him. 3. This fight will be close quarters anyway.
Jab cancel to grab: Ike can’t grab opponents from afar, so he has to travel a short distance after canceling the jab sequence in order to get the opponent in range. This gives Luigi a window for using his Nair, which kills.
Bair
This move has a smaller hitbox but higher KO power than the other approaches. I recommend players to save it from the decaying at least until the opponent build up some percentage, in order to get earlier kills. Also, note that it must be executed quickly. You know what to expect from an Ike with his back turned.
Luigi
Luigi should prioritize ground movement over aerial during his approach in this matchup. That’s because Ike’s advantage in horizontal movement and range is greater in the air than in the ground.
Dair to Nair
This is Luigi’s classic combo starter. Both hits can be performed even when short hopping and both of them are starters of true combos.
Tornado
Brief startup lag, packed with multiple hits and with the right amount of knockback for juggling. The flaws that don’t make this a variation of Metaknight’s whorenado are the characteristic ending lag and lower priority. Ike can interrupt it with ease using a SH Bair or aim for the ending lag and punish with Ftilt or a grab.
Dsmash
This is a fast move that hits under the shield, has good range and has ideal knockback for juggling. Combined with the sliding effect when performed walking, it is an effective approach when spaced correctly (it reaches farther than Ike’s jab).
Short hopped fireballs: A diversion that should be used by Luigi whenever he is outranged. This projectile has nothing special packed on it and its timing isn’t too strict.
Approach overview * Advantage to Ike*
Luigi moves are faster than Ike and he has much more reliable combos. But with Ike’s faster aerial and ground movement combined with long range aerials, Luigi will have to work much harder on his approach in this matchup.
Finisher attacks and edge guarding tactics
Ike
This is where this character shines. He is not dependent of his smashes for scoring KOs. All of his moves have powerful knockback and he has three meteor smashes. Of course, he may choose to use a smash attack and finish his opponent earlier, but he is not obligated to do so. Tilts can KO Luigi around 100% in Final Destination (taking DI into consideration) and he is also very vulnerable during the execution of his recovery moves. Ike players should watch out for his fireballs and the 1/8 of his side-B misfiring while attempting to gimp.
Luigi
This characters has very swift killers, bad spacing combined with laggy moves can get Ike out of the screen at 60%. His projectile doesn’t help much for gimping, so he might try to use his Bair in order to hit you before the Aether’s SA frames take effect or force an airdodge. He can also attempt to dive under Ike, jump and use his Tornado. Ike will be thrown against the edge of the stage if he gets caught. But that’s an extremely hard edge guarding technique especially if the opponent knows it and has meteor smashes.
KO potential overview *Advantage to Ike*
Once again the spacing plays a crucial role in this matchup. Luigi’s killers (Nair, Fire punch Fsmash, Usmash) have very limited range compared to Ike’s moves and his edge guard game requires him to chase opponents offstage, possibly getting himself gimped.
Counterpick stages
Stages with high ceiling (like Final Destination or Yoshi´s Island) or true ceilings limits Luigi’s KO effectiveness, as he has no horizontal killers besides his Fsmash (which still sends opponents in a relatively high diagonal). There is no particular stage Luigi can get a significant advantage over Ike.
Matchup overview
This should be quick. Luigi is outranged and incapable of sustaining too much damage, Ike’s weight makes him more combo friendly and his recovery is low tier. Ike’s range, mobility and KO potential give him the 60:40 over this matchup.
Nice info Guilhe. Even though I can't top it, I'll still post my info.
- Fireball is useless.
- F-smash is insane. His best kill move so you should definitly watch out for this.
- idk what SFP kills at but I've at 90% and still survived a SFP.
- Both characters are very easy to gimp. It's pretty easy to tell what move he'll use to recover with. If he's down, expect him to down-B to come up. To the side, expect a side-B.
- Luigi will rely on combos to rack up damage. His u-tilt can juggle and as previously mentioned, d-tilt -> SFP can kill you at high enough %s.
- If a character has above average hitboxes, Luigi doesn't do so well against them. Ike has above average hitboxes. Do the math on what the result is.
As good as Luigi is, Ike has the advantage. 55:45 IMO but I really care much about the ratios and stuff. XP
- Fireball is useless.
I just had to make this first.
- F-smash is insane. His best kill move so you should definitly watch out for this.
- idk what SFP kills at but I've at 90% and still survived a SFP.
- Both characters are very easy to gimp. It's pretty easy to tell what move he'll use to recover with. If he's down, expect him to down-B to come up. To the side, expect a side-B.
- Luigi will rely on combos to rack up damage. His u-tilt can juggle and as previously mentioned, d-tilt -> SFP can kill you at high enough %s.
- If a character has above average hitboxes, Luigi doesn't do so well against them. Ike has above average hitboxes. Do the math on what the result is.
As good as Luigi is, Ike has the advantage. 55:45 IMO but I really care much about the ratios and stuff. XP
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
Guile owned the luigi boards none of them came back after that.
Kinzer
Mammy
Shall we move on then? Shiek for #20?
/Sarcasm
Actually, I think we pretty much covered everything beforehand with that old thread and whatnot, and then some with Guil's guide (where did you come up with that anyway?). Let's just hope Light can remain as neutral as possible with his matchup so we don't look bad, but we don't make "Fireballs" an Ike counter either...
Also Light just please answer my questions in a previous post whenever you get the chance.
/Sarcasm
Actually, I think we pretty much covered everything beforehand with that old thread and whatnot, and then some with Guil's guide (where did you come up with that anyway?). Let's just hope Light can remain as neutral as possible with his matchup so we don't look bad, but we don't make "Fireballs" an Ike counter either...
Also Light just please answer my questions in a previous post whenever you get the chance.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Excellent analysis, Guilhe, Actually, if you don't particularly mind, I may as well make this week a special "guest write-up" occasion and put that up there. What say you?
got it, thanks.
Oh yes, your questions. I didn't notice those. Basically: No, I pretty much stopped the tourney order thing after the first few important matches. No, that Falco picture is ridiculous. Sure, I'll put in speedy for Toon Link.
Kinzer
Mammy
But...but...the whole point of that picture was to be ridiculous!...*snivel*
*Dries up tears*...*snort mucus*...Okay, calming down now... What do you mean by guest write-up, as in using part of it...or all of it...and then coming up with something of your own...or not...?
*Dries up tears*...*snort mucus*...Okay, calming down now... What do you mean by guest write-up, as in using part of it...or all of it...and then coming up with something of your own...or not...?
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Go to Guilhe's post. Grab mouse. Click and select all text. Control C. Go to original page. Go to Luigi section. Control V. Save.
Hoser
Smash Ace
It'd be a good idea, seeing as it would get us through the match-up quite fast. Plus, it was written by Guilhe and three Luigi mains, so they can't really complain.
Kinzer
Mammy
I have no problem with putting that up I suppose, although to me it feels different than from Light's usual "story-telling" type of write-up. The information seems relevant nevertheless, and this is not my matchup guide, so Light can do whatever he wants.
(And just for my knowledge, when was that guide baked?)
(And just for my knowledge, when was that guide baked?)
Hoser
Smash Ace
He didn't say. He was talking about it in the topic in the Luigi forum though.
Kinzer
Mammy
Well, doesn't matter I guess, if it speeds up the matchup guide and still keeps its revelance, then by all means let's use it.
Also I officially claim post #1337 in this thread.
Also I officially claim post #1337 in this thread.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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I really wish the Luigi mains were here. We're not even talking about match-up ratios. I already told them that our guide is more based on a realistic setting and more based on what they'd do to win.
The pure fact that we're on our own for this will leave our discussion more based on theory than good strategies.
The pure fact that we're on our own for this will leave our discussion more based on theory than good strategies.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Since they aren't here, time to shove some quick ratios in!
Ike-Luigi is 10:0
Actually no...11:-1.
Success!
Kinzer
Mammy
You think it's bad now? Just wait until we get characters like The Boozer/
Not only that but characters like Sonic and Pokemanz Trainer are going to be complicated because we have to analyze so much. At least with Luigi it's moreorless straightforward with what they do to an extent.
Although I got to admit some other characters will be alright...I hope...the Jiggly/Yoshi boards for example are looking promising now.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Maybe if we put up how much Ike ***** Luigi, all the Luigi players will come then. 
EDIT: To be honest, the Falcon boards are fine. There's actually quite a few Falcon players that are pretty dedicated to them and they're finding out new techniques to push up his game, even if he is the worst character in the game.
EDIT: To be honest, the Falcon boards are fine. There's actually quite a few Falcon players that are pretty dedicated to them and they're finding out new techniques to push up his game, even if he is the worst character in the game.
Kinzer
Mammy
Well I guess before I get bashed by anybody, I just want to say that the Falcon is, unfortunately not promising...
I feel sorry for the guy, with as epic as he is, he is the worst of the worst. Nintendo didn't exactly give him a bunch of things to work with to get far...but if people are working with him, than they will have my respect, to stick with him even with as much bad things that are plaguing him now...
I feel sorry for the guy, with as epic as he is, he is the worst of the worst. Nintendo didn't exactly give him a bunch of things to work with to get far...but if people are working with him, than they will have my respect, to stick with him even with as much bad things that are plaguing him now...
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
change the title yagami.
Kinzer
Mammy
Give them Gay Luigi, and they'll come in by the hundreds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDU4SiP2qS0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDU4SiP2qS0
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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^That was oddly hilarious.
So Light, how much time are we giving the Luigi mains? It already has been a full day with no feedback besides an lol @ at the picture.
So Light, how much time are we giving the Luigi mains? It already has been a full day with no feedback besides an lol @ at the picture.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
I'm actually just waiting for Guilhe's heads up on whether I can use the write-up he made or not. The Luigi boards had a rather poor showing.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
they probably heard of glacier smash and imagined Ike sticking his sword into a glacier to swing it for a new smash attack.
They then decided to go into hiding inside the rocky mountains praying that Ike won't pick those up as a new jab combo.
They then decided to go into hiding inside the rocky mountains praying that Ike won't pick those up as a new jab combo.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
That would be an honor. But we can’t Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V it; the Ike part must be excluded.
Ussi
Smash Legend
No keep the Ike part, we need to know what Ike has to do and what he has.
Guilhe
Smash Ace
The Ike part just informs the Luigi players about our strengths, approaches and KO moves. That is already covered by Light’s Character Zero analysis.
P.S.: PT or Sonic for next analysis.
P.S.: PT or Sonic for next analysis.
I skimmed through your summary on how to fight Toon link, and notice one thing at the beginning that was wrong. We use arrows alot, usually anytime we land on the ground, high chance we will arrow cancel. Also there's SHDA (short hop double arrow), which we also use.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I say PT for next Matchup, after we are 100% sure if the chaingrab on charizard works, and what we have on Ivy. We already pwn Squirtle. XD
And I thought the arrow part was a bit off....
And I thought the arrow part was a bit off....
HeroMystic
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Get ready for all the talk about Ivy's razor leaf...Nidtendofreak said:
Oh, and Squirtle's watergun... even though we **** him.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Forgot that. At least they have more of a point then the Luigi boards do. >_> And they weren't banking on it nearly as much. They are one of the more intelligent boards, I believe if we have a few grab releases on Ivy, they will see pass the razor leaf.
As for the watergun, it's a valid point again. And the CG should completely balance that out. And then the Glacier Smash to add salt to the wound.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
Until we completely sort out exactly how much we **** the Pokecast, let's just go with Lucas. (I believe we have a free Fair on him, this is so awesome).
Kinzer
Mammy
Ah, the PSI boy huh?
I wonder if we will be doing Ness after, but that doesn't matter right now, let's see what Lucas is capable of...
He does have some wierd stuff, it would defenitely help if we had the assistance the Lucas boards.
I wonder if we will be doing Ness after, but that doesn't matter right now, let's see what Lucas is capable of...
He does have some wierd stuff, it would defenitely help if we had the assistance the Lucas boards.
Trozz
Smash Ace
Lucas's PK Fire completely halts Ike's side-b recovery; he plummets straight down and dies. Watch out for that.
HeroMystic
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Noraa
Smash Lord
....space your self.
...Cus real lucas mains wont let you get close.
...we will out rang you.
.....you will get gimped.
SOOOOOO
Get close to lucas and dont let up. Thats the only thing i can think of really.
...Cus real lucas mains wont let you get close.
...we will out rang you.
.....you will get gimped.
SOOOOOO
Get close to lucas and dont let up. Thats the only thing i can think of really.