Ignore.

[Xyro77]

yea sure pal! they are still on my wii

 

[Magik0722]

Alright thanks alot

 

[KillerJawz]

lol im not banned. had you cats just scroll up and look under my name you would see i wasnt banned. WHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHH!

Btw, i did some friendlies(serious ones) with Tx 3rd PR player. Gnes, hes a diddy main(probably number 2 in the USA). I lost all of them but one and i recorded them all. Im uploading them now. The reason why i did thiis is because some one wanted to talk about diddy to see what and what not to do. Well these vids should help. they will be up shortly.


60-40 and maybe even 65-36 in diddys favor.

Ah that was me, thanks man :3

 

[Gnes]

Honestly i only think its 65-35(65-36lol) xyro if i play like a *****...samus has some weird things going for in the matchup...well...especially since i dont have any experience and what to do against what. We should play more .

 

[Crystanium]

I'm going with 60-40, Diddy Kong's favor.

 

[Xyro77]

Honestly i only think its 65-35(65-36lol) xyro if i play like a *****...samus has some weird things going for in the matchup...well...especially since i dont have any experience and what to do against what. We should play more .

Yea gnes! I really really want to also but i usually never ask because samus exp aint gonna help you in any way. but yea, lets play some more.

I'm going with 60-40, Diddy Kong's favor.

the vids are almost done being uploaded to youtube.

 

[KillerJawz]

I just watched the first 2 of Xyro's matches, and imo 60-40 to 70-30 in Diddy's favour sounds about right, those Nana's just seem to get us Samuses down ;.;

 

[Xyro77]

2 more are being uploaded. also, dont make a match-up call untill you play multiple diddys. Gnes is HONESTLY top 2 in the usa when it comes to diddy so maybe it looks SO bad because hes just THAT good. Ive played medium skill diddys and 2 stock them with EASE so it shos that didy DOES have the advantage but not a 70-30 advantage. It really depends on how smart they space and use the bananas.

you want a 70-30? Falco/meta vs samus.

but when it comes to my matches, look and see what i do WRONG before you look and see what i do RIGHT. Cause half the time, what i do RIGHT may be sheer luck. My FAULTS are legit so SEE THEM, and learn to prevent that situation when you start playing diddys that do things like gnes does.

 

[KillerJawz]

2 more are being uploaded. also, dont make a match-up call untill you play multiple diddys. Gnes is HONESTLY top 2 in the usa when it comes to diddy so maybe it looks SO bad because hes just THAT good. Ive played medium skill diddys and 2 stock them with EASE so it shos that didy DOES have the advantage but not a 70-30 advantage. It really depends on how smart they space and use the bananas.

you want a 70-30? Falco/meta vs samus.

but when it comes to my matches, look and see what i do WRONG before you look and see what i do RIGHT. Cause half the time, what i do RIGHT may be sheer luck. My FAULTS are legit so SEE THEM, and learn to prevent that situation when you start playing diddys that do things like gnes does.

Oh it had nothing to do with how skillfull he is, it's just I myself have faced multiple Diddy's (Cong and OmegaExile are the biggest here that come to mind, but in my time I've played at least 4 decent ones) and got the same sort of crap pulled on me. Ive also faced a really good Falco in the UK and didn't do nearly as bad against Diddy, that's why I needed help with this particular matchup cause I know it shouldn't be going like that.

I saw multiple things you did wrong, and things you did right, and I have learnt from it, but I think we all need more experience in this matchup, because at least once I highly expect all of us to face at least 1 Diddy player.

So yeah, that matchup call was from my experience, what I saw you do, and from analysis of both movesets.

We SERIOUSLY need more Diddys to visit here.

 

[Xyro77]

I will be the first to admit i dont have enough diddy exp. IMO if i could use bananas well, i would do so much better.

 

[DelxDoom]

Yeah guys

Samus + bananas is amazing

 

[Crystanium]

the vids are almost done being uploaded to youtube.

I saw them. I played several Diddy Kong players before. I was paying attention to your Samus. You seem to do the same old Samus routine that every other Samus main does, myself included: -insert whatever projectile here- + Charge Shot. It gets really predictable, and it was most noticeable on Smashville.

I wish I could find that one blog someone made about match-up discussions.

 

[Rhyme]

I never made the connection that you were a previous Olimar main. That would explain your rather extensive use of f-air in a lot of your MUs.

Yeah, I traded up. ; ) Also, I use Fair because it's an awesome move, not because I used to main a certain character.

If someone tries to straight up rush you, you can punish with any aerials(SH N-air worked particularly well for me),

I seem to have trouble here. For some reason, my aerials are often outprioritized by Mario's aerials. It could be my spacing...nevertheless, I tend to neglect Nair in most MUs due to its massive ending lag. I will give it some thought and figure out how to work Nair into my game, especially for Mario.

Utilt also kinda ***** me. It's real quick and hard to punish, at least for me. Do I have a zoning problem if this move is a problem to me, or is it just the Marios that I play?

N-air agreed,

Ness' Nair is total ****. I abuse the crap out of it whenever I use him. >: ]

~PS~ is within top 3 Olimar on EC (the other two are in NY/NJ I think? Somewhere near Rhyme) and 3rd PR in MD/VA. It could be that Olimar at his best, *****. Or that I don't know the MU as extensively as Rhyme does.

^This is arguable. As stated, I have a lot of experience vs great Olimars, and I'm quite familiar with how the character works as I still play him to some extent. If you have a more specific question about the MU then I will try to answer it.

Rhyme watch some of Xyros matches with various Yoshi mains, it will become clear why its in our favour.

Hint hint: Zair

I'll get around to it. My first priority was to watch Xyro vs. Gnes.

2 more are being uploaded. also, dont make a match-up call untill you play multiple diddys. Gnes is HONESTLY top 2 in the usa when it comes to diddy so maybe it looks SO bad because hes just THAT good.

My issue with the MU is that most of my experience is against a single Diddy player, ADHD. Also, you bring up a valid point. It's difficult to judge Samus' MU vs a top tier character when that player is better than you are.

I noticed plenty of things while watching your set.

For example, Diddy kept catching you with bananas as you SH camped projectiles. From about Zair length away, dropping a bomb is a great mix-up. It can help you avoid the banana, and with Raigoth cancel, generally makes a situation where Diddy doesn't want to approach. Alternatively, fire a projectile from the ground (Zair length or further in general). Either the banana hits the projectile and stops, or it trades hits with Diddy (banana hits you but CS/missile hits Diddy).

Also, needs more Ftilt/Uair. Ftilt resets spacing to where it is more favorable to Samus. Learn to work the lingering of the hitbox, and Diddy should have trouble landing within your Dtilt range. Uair is important to Samus' boxing game in this MU, and is Samus' alternative to airdodge. Diddy should never be as comfortable as he was while playing so close to you.

Note that you did plenty of things correctly. I found it easier to list what I would change rather than what you did right. ; )

I'm currently postponing an entire write-up. After thinking about it, the MU is more involved than Olimar...covering ONLY Olimar's camping game took me over half an hour, and I just don't have that kind of time because of school.

 

[Gnes]

Im gonna start visiting here more often. Make the matchup 100-0 diddys favor

 

[Xyro77]

Yeah, I traded up. ; ) Also, I use Fair because it's an awesome move, not because I used to main a certain character.



I seem to have trouble here. For some reason, my aerials are often outprioritized by Mario's aerials. It could be my spacing...nevertheless, I tend to neglect Nair in most MUs due to its massive ending lag. I will give it some thought and figure out how to work Nair into my game, especially for Mario.

Utilt also kinda ***** me. It's real quick and hard to punish, at least for me. Do I have a zoning problem if this move is a problem to me, or is it just the Marios that I play?



Ness' Nair is total ****. I abuse the crap out of it whenever I use him. >: ]



^This is arguable. As stated, I have a lot of experience vs great Olimars, and I'm quite familiar with how the character works as I still play him to some extent. If you have a more specific question about the MU then I will try to answer it.



I'll get around to it. My first priority was to watch Xyro vs. Gnes.



My issue with the MU is that most of my experience is against a single Diddy player, ADHD. Also, you bring up a valid point. It's difficult to judge Samus' MU vs a top tier character when that player is better than you are.

I noticed plenty of things while watching your set.

For example, Diddy kept catching you with bananas as you SH camped projectiles. From about Zair length away, dropping a bomb is a great mix-up. It can help you avoid the banana, and with Raigoth cancel, generally makes a situation where Diddy doesn't want to approach. Alternatively, fire a projectile from the ground (Zair length or further in general). Either the banana hits the projectile and stops, or it trades hits with Diddy (banana hits you but CS/missile hits Diddy).

Also, needs more Ftilt/Uair. Ftilt resets spacing to where it is more favorable to Samus. Learn to work the lingering of the hitbox, and Diddy should have trouble landing within your Dtilt range. Uair is important to Samus' boxing game in this MU, and is Samus' alternative to airdodge. Diddy should never be as comfortable as he was while playing so close to you.

Note that you did plenty of things correctly. I found it easier to list what I would change rather than what you did right. ; )

I'm currently postponing an entire write-up. After thinking about it, the MU is more involved than Olimar...covering ONLY Olimar's camping game took me over half an hour, and I just don't have that kind of time because of school.

Ill consider what you said. I think i just need more exp.

 

[Mr9]

i have a lot of exp against diddy i play against several diddy mains and diddy is very predictable. everytime there gonna throw a banana at samus take the hit from the banana and fire a CS the damage and knock back exchange is more than worth it.

if you time it right you will hit diddy every time. will all my experience fighting diddy i would have to say if diddy does have an advantage it would have to be 55-45.

 

[Rhyme]

-just throwing this out in the open-

My vote is to discuss the Lucario MU.

 

[NO-IDea]

-just throwing this out in the open-

My vote is to discuss the Lucario MU.

Overruled.

Jk, I agree. Who wants to start? (I'm tired, so not me.)

 

[Rhyme]

Don't everybody start at once. Jeez. -_-

Considering Lucario's linear recovery, Samus seems to have trouble edgeguarding this character. Missiles and aerials are blocked by Lucario's Fair. Lucario also has the teleport option for attacking his way towards the level. Zair will only give Lucario extra height while recovering, so I try not to use it for edgeguarding him.

Samus' obvious weakness of low kill power is emphasized by the Aura effect. Two to three times per match, Samus will be fighting Lucario at or near his full power. It's a total mindgame when you know that Uair, Nair, Fsmash and Bair are all suddenly viable kill moves. Samus can use her projectiles (Zair and bomb included) to keep some nice distance between her and Lucario most of the time. However, due to Lucario's amazing roll and Fair, it can be very difficult to punish a safe Lucario.

I mainly have two problems with this MU. First is getting from the ledge to the stage. Rising Zair/Fair can only work so many times. Edgehop airdodge is good until Lucario starts shield->Utilting, and I can't seem to get past Fair/Uair/Nair by ledge jumping. Do you guys have any recommendations? Second is landing a kill move. Dtilt gets outzoned by Lucario's Fsmash/Ftilt in my experience. Bair gets ***** by Lucario's Fair. CS never seems to hit anyone, lol. I can't find reliable openings for Utilt while Lucario is on the stage, nor can I seem to hit him with it from the ledge. How do you guys usually kill a Lucario?

 

[IsmaR]

Mainly B-air and D-tilt, the occasional spike/gimp and Charge Shot land often for me, though.

My main problem with Luc is that I get grabraped(that's a problem for most of my matches, save for Dedede ironically). I manage to keep most at bay with Jabs, N-air, and F-air, and mindgaming with projectiles. I have no problem killing Luc at high %, so I don't usually have that much trouble with him at full power. Top that off with his unreliable recovery and Samus' mint ledge game and you should be able to score some good KO's. If he tries using Double Team(down B) a lot for recovery, stop using Z-air, go out there and N-air. He'll either be knocked back(his floatiness/recovery should let you get in other options) or in some cases make him fly away from the stage.

His F-air > N-air/F-air/etc. does screw me over, as it's pretty easy to get combo'd by Lucario. For recovering, try double jump backwards off the ledge > bomb recovery. If nothing else, it'll at least let you breathe for a second. Lastly, tilts are useful here. F-tilt(angled ones especially) and D-tilt are good. In U-tilt's case, I suggest you do it facing away from the ledge, it'll catch 'em if they try rolling or jumping over you.

 

[Xyro77]

i made a massive post on lucario in the lucario boards. MUST FIND IT

 

[IsmaR]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8449413&postcount=2151

I am too good to these boards.

 

[Cherry64]

I agree with all of Xyro's info there, it's not a fun MU but it has to happen, our not being able to kill but rack up damage does NO GOOD for us here at ALL.

it pretty much destroys us in this one actually

 

[Xyro77]

Ismar, you are amazing.

 

[Rhyme]

Well, I generally use CS/homing missiles to set up for KO moves. But, as we've covered, Lucario's attacks (Fair/aura sphere in particular) cut down on our ability to use a projectile as a kill setup. Lucario's Dair has a great hitbox and stall properties, so setting up for Utilt/Bair as you would vs most of the cast won't work either. I'm still not sure how you guys manage to kill Lucarios.

 

[Xyro77]

LU LU vs SAM SAM​

60-40 in Lucarios favor​

If you dont feel like reading this decently sized post just read the next sentence. At the Highest level of play for Lucario AND Samus, the match-up ratio would be 60 to 40 in Lucarios favor. If you wish to see WHY, proceed to the paragraphs below. WHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!





DBZ $hit

I dont know the correct term for it but i call it "DBZ $hit" because when goku loses a fight(gets his *** beat) he gets stronger. Same for lucario! Each time you kids get hit your attacks do more damage. Ive seen poor ZS's get kill at 40% from a lucario at like 165% and 2 stocks behind doing a F-smash. That **** is screwed up. Anyway, this DBZ $hit is KEY in the samus vs lucario matchup....as u read on, you will understand.



Projectiles

Right out fo the boxs samus has you beat. She can pelt you with lock-on missles/Homing missles/Charge Shot(cs) and Zair(yes i consider it a projectile). Feel scared yet? In reality it is the SAMUS players who should be scared.

Ok so while we build up EASY damage on Lucario from our spam(this is our priority because samus has problems uilding up damage with melee attacks) we also are fueling your DBZ $hit. So in reality, the more we spam and the more the spam hits you, its making you stronger......********.

Another thing we HATE is the fact that your MEDIUM to fully charged aura sphere GOES THROUGH zair, lock-on/homing missles and weak charge shot. WE MUST HAVE a CS that is EQUAL to your Aura Sphere or else yours beats ours and we take the hit. Lucario is one of the 2 chars that have a projectile that can stop ALL of our projectils. Its just dumb and it gives lucario a nice advantage on Samus's BEST attribute.....projectiles.

Overall, i think Samus wins this department slightly.



Melee attacks

Im not gonna sugar coat this ****: I WET MYSELF WHEN LU LU IS IN MY FACE. Not only does samus's weight make her easy as hell to combo, we dont really have a move that will STOP the combos once we are in it.

I might be spillin' a secret to you lu lu kids that the world doesnt want you to know but....tee hee.... Lucario's aura has invisible hit boxes.....OMG LIKE YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT ALREADY!!!! But seriously, your attacks can be spaced in a way to where EVEN if we shield, you can still stay out of range of our longest melee attacks: d tilt, f tilt.

Thanks to your DBZ $hit, you can make alot of your moves KO moves. Man, ive seen lucarios Fthrow, Uair, Bair, Dair, fsmash, Dsmash and some times ive seen Utilt kill. Samus only has 3 reliable KO moves. CS, Dtilt, and F smash(assuming its not already exhausted).

Overall, Lucario will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS win in this department.



Recovery and Gimping

Ah yes, this is the ONE WAY Samus can tunr the tide of the match and win! As all of you know, Samus is VERY VERY floaty which allows us to get back to the stage easier than most. You also know that our Tether is the LONGEST(yes more than ZS and olimar) in the game. You MIGHT even know that we can STILL bomb jump like we did in melee. And if you ever played a Samus you know her UP+B has great hieght and its MULTI hitting so the chances of you edge hogging our recovery is slim to none.

Now combine that with lucarios PREDICTABLE and SLOW recovery. Sure you can wall cling but dont kid yourself, its trash and you know it. Samus can shoot multiple missles to stop you recovery LOW or HIGH and she can even run off stage to shoot missle of zair. Spiking the recovery and wall cling is nothing hard for samus player because MOST of our kills on the ENTIRE cast consists of spike so we know every way possible to set up for it and force you to get in the range of it.

However, Lucario DOES have answers. Simply STAY in the middle or as close to the middle of the stage as you can. What is samus gonna do, come run up to your face and MAKE you go to the ledge? NO, read the section above here again and realize we CANT melee attack your *** at ALL so we cant force you to the ledge that way. Only our projectiles can do that.....oh wait, did you read the first section? Yea if u did you would know that, if done correctly, samus projectils SHOULDNT mess with you that much if you keep a medium to fully charged Aura sphere handy at all times.

Yes i know lucario can run off and fair or combo samus, but do u really wanna take the chance of doing that and then have us use our GREAT recovery and tether the ledge you were UP+Bing to? Its not worth it so dont try it.

Overall, samus wins in this department.



Stages to Ban/CP

Samus's BEST neutral stages:

FD: this allows us to run away and set up HUGE walls of projectiles.
BF: obviously the platforms gives us decent advantages on most of the cast.
SV: moving platform opens up new ways of camping.

Samus WORST neutral stages:

YI: The ledges screw up out Zairs and other "coming from the ledge" attacks. Shy guys and tilting platform mess up our missiles.
Lylat C(if legal): The platforms are nice but the ledge and tilting stage can screw us up badly.

Samus BEST CP:

lol the neutrals that we are good at are generally what most samus players CP with.
Some other(like me) pick PKMN 1 or Jungle japes or Norfair.

Samus WORST CP:

Just take us to ANY LEVEL where there is little to NO room to spam. Projectiles is 80% of our game and if you take it away or reduce it greatly.....what do we have left?



The Grand Scheme

Samus CANNOT kill
Samus ONLY does well when we have room to spam
Samus has SLOW melee atatcks

So pretty much, GET in our face. We DO NOT have a reliable answer to that method. ALWAYS have a medium to fully charged Aura Sphere on hand in case the spam gets too bad, fire it and run behind it to get BACK in our face(lol thats f-ed up), Pick stages where we CANT spam so that way you reduce our MAIN way of building your %s. Make sure you use your DBZ $hit to its fullest, it works on the WHOLE cast.

 

[Rhyme]

...the link is already there, so why did you bother posting that summary?

 

[KillerJawz]

...the link is already there, so why did you bother posting that summary?

Cause people like me are to lazy to click on links =3.

A superb rightup and I couldn't agree more. I played a ton of lucarios at my last tourny and that Aura sphere was a pain in the ***. Went straight through mah zair ;.;.

 

[Naraku]

Anything on Ice Climbers? I am having a rather hard time with them. I get garbed and I die.

:/

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I like to leave random bombs around when playing particularly grab-y characters so that if I'm grabbed it breaks me out. Ice Blocks are annoying in this matchup.

 

[Rhyme]

Anything on Ice Climbers? I am having a rather hard time with them. I get garbed and I die.

:/

Stages with platforms help...really any stage gimmick that convinces ICs to leave the ground where they cannot grab you. Spaced Fair on their shield is hard for them to work around, and power missiles are great against them because of how often they will be using shield. You can try Zairing earlier in your descent on occasion (the goal being to hit Popo's shield but hit Nana before her shield comes up). Samus doesn't have any real problems camping in this MU either.

 

[Werk!]

As hinted at above, stay aerial. FF Z-air and U-air, spaced right, interrupt most of ICs. (Of course, Samus common sense: Don't linger directly above them.) As with every other character vs ICs, try to dsynch them whenever possible. MBB to D-tilt or D-smash (staying within the explosion radius) is decent to mess up their shielding and D-smash will usually guarentee desynch if it lands.

Also, projectile spam to dash-grab/pivot grab is risky, but could pay off if the ICs has not perfected the chaingrab. Their own grab range is horrible, so frametrapping is a viable option, again, IF they haven't gotten to "You get grabbed, you die."

Oh, right. F-tilt aimed downwards is a decent move for desynching as well, especially if the ICs attempt to powershield.

And don't forget ledgecamping to bait them off stage. (Watch out for b-air stagespike) Tether hogging during their Up-B = guaranteed Nana death.

Good luck with the matchup. I usually only manage to do well if I dominate Nana from the beginning of the match.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Hey guys, I will be posting up some vids soon hopefully of NO KOAST. I have only one match Im super proud of, but the rest can be vids of what not to do, what to watch out for, and how to **** those who dont know what L/R is.

I have a videos of me losing to Joker's snake, Cook's Olimar, and a great PT who I didnt get the name of. A little something I didnt know about the Olimar MU, he combos like crazy from dthrow -> hyphen smash. Also, those little pikmin grab you out of just about anything and lock on like homing missles. I think I'll read up a little bit on that MU, but I still think we need a little more info on it before we get our butts handed to us.

If there is anything good that I'd like you guys to observe that I still think is lacking in the Samus community, it is how I handle my fair. I welcome any critique on my Samus and how to handle certain situations better.

You all should look forward to these vids this weekend I believe. Also, anyone know about .VRO programs? I am curious if I can get my hands on something that can edit my vids from this format. If you guys can help me with this, I should be able to get these up sooner. The program Im using just to play it (I dont remember off the top of my head) seems to mess up the timing somewhere in the video, and you miss some parts if you dont quickly go back. Also, it says the vid is under 6 mins, but is actually over half and hour, so Im uncertain what the deal is with that...

 

[KillerJawz]

Guys thats not give up on this thread, we need some more information to put down, how about we talk about the less popular characters, Luigi anyone?

 

[NO-IDea]

@Raigoth: Dude, where are those vids? I need to learn how to f-air!

@KJ: Luigi MU...

It's ridiculous how much Luigi has to perfect shield or be in your face to punish from shielding. Honestly, the shield knockback on the character is ridiculous (I recall us talking about this.)

Luigis jab combo and jab canceling combos are deadly, not to mention his aerial strings and his d-throw that leads into those aerial strings at low percents. I think the big thing to mention is SDIing away once he starts his jab 1, or the up+b can kill you at 60-70% range.

His main approach also comes from d-air, although b-air can be seen often as well if he's trying to space safely (hard to do against Samus since he doesn't have disjointed hitboxes and we have f-air/z-air.) But from his d-air, Luigi has a plethora of options, mainly n-air, sometimes f-air, sometimes down+b, DI away and fireball, etc. The main thing to worry about is to make sure he doesn't get close enough to d-air.

With this said, u-tilt becomes more viable here than in other MUs, just like how u-tilt is more viable against Jiggly/Peach/etc. We have legit shield pressure options because of Luigi's sliding aspects too, so d-smash becomes decent.

Off stage, his cyclone and forward+b make his recovery fairly verastile, but it's still possible to intercept with z-air/d-air. Try not to challenge his missile with anything else though, or don't challenge it at all. The cyclone, it's very possible to spike it, but if he gets into the habit of going too low for Samus to spike, tether hogging works as a punisher. He'l be forced to land on the stage, and the significant lag can lead to d-air/CS/etc.

His fireballs can be annoying at times, but because they stay at in one trajectory, it's easier to z-air through them compared to Mario's fireballs. I would suggest just to play gay and camp, approach when you're nearing the ledge under the protection of some missile, and then camp again. Characters with lack of disjointed hitboxes tend to be easier for Samus to handle (unless they're absurdly fast like Sheik/CF/Sonic.)

 

[Xyro77]

when i get back from kosha i will write up an article for a few characters. does anybody wanna write up one for a char thats not done yet? it helps me out big time.

 

[Rhyme]

If you don't mind, I can probably do one for Diddy and/or Olimar when I get back from Kosher Boy.

 

[Inui]

yes rhyme, plz do!!!!! please put it in the normla formate and ill add it on front page.


EDIT: this is xyro. i keep forgetting im on inuis account

 

[1Zero99Lucia5]

when i get back from kosha i will write up an article for a few characters. does anybody wanna write up one for a char thats not done yet? it helps me out big time.

I can do a few to, I have lot's of experience vs. GaW, Ike, Snake, Ganon, Marth and IC

 

[Mr9]

I can do a few to, I have lot's of experience vs. GaW, Ike, Snake, Ganon, Marth and IC

lol you really are posting everywhere