Ignore.

[KillerJawz]

I see you guys already worked on the Bowser match-up. Man, I had great information about him in the past. I'd go with 65-35, Samus' favor. I wish I had my information still.

It is not 65-35 by any means. 60-40 Is a more acceptable approach and 55-45 would ok, but its definatly in our favor.

Me and IxisNaugus played again today discussing tools which each character has and a variety of other things, we are pretty much sure its 60-40, maybe 55-45 if you screw up your zair spacing.

 

[LanceStern]

Uair, Usmash and Fair wrecks Bowser pretty bad...

He sets up nicely into jab lock and jab cancelling too... when you're not getting clawed or fortressed'

 

[NO-IDea]

Very nice summary of the G&W MU. One last tid bit of information to add: learn to SDI the b-air. That is all.

 

[Crystanium]

It is not 65-35 by any means. 60-40 Is a more acceptable approach and 55-45 would ok, but its definatly in our favor.

Me and IxisNaugus played again today discussing tools which each character has and a variety of other things, we are pretty much sure its 60-40, maybe 55-45 if you screw up your zair spacing.

You're not convincing me. I'm sticking to 65-35. I went with 70-30 in the past, but then I played different Bowser mains when I was in charge of the match-up thread. When I played other Bowser mains, I required they had 6 months or more of experience with Bowser.

 

[KillerJawz]

You're not convincing me. I'm sticking to 65-35. I went with 70-30 in the past, but then I played different Bowser mains when I was in charge of the match-up thread. When I played other Bowser mains, I required they had 6 months or more of experience with Bowser.

IxisNaugus is one of, if not the best Bowser main(s) in the world. Im pretty sure he knows what he is talking about.

@Lance, No usmash does not. Bowser can get out of it easily at 20%+ I tested it repeatedly. Fair is easily shielded and punished with Upb OoS and uair I admit, does wonders on his shield. However, fair does lead VERY nicely into upb from the ledge. That is theorycrafting, it's FAR different when you have a Bowser in your face D:

 

[RaigothDagon]

Ill believe killer on this one until I see proven otherwise. I assume that killer uses fair properly as in retreating with it unless approaching from the ledge.

 

[KillerJawz]

Ill believe killer on this one until I see proven otherwise. I assume that killer uses fair properly as in retreating with it unless approaching from the ledge.

It needs to be spaced properly to avoid upb OoS, even from the ledge. Retreating fair does bait him out of his shield, giving us a chance to let some damage on, but fortress and klaw come out very quickly so it's not easy, even if properly spaced.

Besides, soon I'll be getting even more matches up, so you guys can see it then. Until then, im not going into this any further, believe me if you wish.

 

[Crystanium]

IxisNaugus is one of, if not the best Bowser main(s) in the world. Im pretty sure he knows what he is talking about.

And Xyro77 is the best Samus main in the world. I remain unconvinced.

 

[KillerJawz]

And Xyro77 is the best Samus main in the world. I remain unconvinced.

And? This isn't to do with Xyro. Are you even reading my posts?

Since we are on that now then, Xyro stated a WHILE back what the MU was like, and iirc, back then, Samus was higher on the tier list and/or considered a better character back then, her game wasn't as developed as it is now, and I know that Bowser's has increased aswell.

If Xyro was SURE about the MU, he would have added it to the OP, and he didn't, I am however, very sure that the MU is AT LEAST 55-45 and at max 60-40, it is not any higher. Things change, Vex Kasrani no longer mains Bowser, so that is no longer a valid arguement in Xyro's favor if he was basing his MU off of him.

Im not even trying to convince you, just attempting to make you not look like a fool when you come up against a decent Bowser (not back then) and get slaugtered.

Spoiler

Fortress is too good.

Anyway, in an attempt to change the topic, since we are getting nowhere, anyone care to shed some more light on Samus v Peach? This MU is so annoying for me, especially that dair D:

 

[Crystanium]

I know this has nothing to do with Xyro, but you're saying you play against the best Bowser in the world. Xyro is the best Samus main in the world, not you. I cannot really determine that based off of Wi-Fi, though. So, maybe there will be Xyro versus your friend.

Also, I don't know who Vex Kasrani is.

Versus Peach, 50-50. D-air is effective, because it hits her opponent upward, it seems. She can air-dodge out of her floating, too. However, if the Peach you fight air-dodges out of floating every time you go in for an attack, go with a retreating f-air. This means even approaching Peach this way, but pressing back on the analog stick. If it helps, use the C-stick to perform this aerial. F-air is a multi-hit attack, so it can help. However, you might want to watch out with Peach's f-air. That's one of her kill moves. As for Turnips, those can be stopped by any projectile, including z-air. A n-air or f-air may allow Samus to catch it in the air while performing an attack.

 

[NO-IDea]

Peach is one of my personal bad MUs. I see it 55-45 if not 60-40. My reasoning being Peach has kill moves, they just don't kill unless fresh and at high percentage. Samus doesn't have an easy to land kill move.

Generally, in my matches against Peach, I'm only winning because I can land a solid kill move through a good read while Peach gets me up to 170% with f-air and doesn't kill me (learn to DI for those who think this isn't feasible.) Peach's other kill move is n-air, which is hard to land if the Samus isn't overly aggressive on the shield (dash attack especially. That's just calling for a lost stock.) U-smash and u-tilt are highly situational. U-air can be tricky if you get too predictable with air dodges.

Honestly, a good peach can usually combo Samus into the 30s-40s easily. And then proceed to combo you via turnips->jab 1->grab until you're at killing percentage. It can get very frustrating. Just know that you may not look like you're winning percentage wise, but it by no means calls for an aggressive playstyle. Just read and punish, take the damage like a tank, and you'll win through outplaying her.

After all, the only good kind of Peach is a simple, aggressive one. And aggression doesn't get you far in a campy, defensive game like Brawl.

 

[Mr9]

Peach is one of my personal bad MUs. I see it 55-45 if not 60-40. My reasoning being Peach has kill moves, they just don't kill unless fresh and at high percentage. Samus doesn't have an easy to land kill move.

Generally, in my matches against Peach, I'm only winning because I can land a solid kill move through a good read while Peach gets me up to 170% with f-air and doesn't kill me (learn to DI for those who think this isn't feasible.) Peach's other kill move is n-air, which is hard to land if the Samus isn't overly aggressive on the shield (dash attack especially. That's just calling for a lost stock.) U-smash and u-tilt are highly situational. U-air can be tricky if you get too predictable with air dodges.

Honestly, a good peach can usually combo Samus into the 30s-40s easily. And then proceed to combo you via turnips->jab 1->grab until you're at killing percentage. It can get very frustrating. Just know that you may not look like you're winning percentage wise, but it by no means calls for an aggressive playstyle. Just read and punish, take the damage like a tank, and you'll win through outplaying her.

After all, the only good kind of Peach is a simple, aggressive one. And aggression doesn't get you far in a campy, defensive game like Brawl.

i know what you mean i play with peach a lot and unless im aggressive i get trashed, i have noticed that most heavy characters can get comboed to up 50% with out me getting hit once.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

A general mindset of Peach players is 'don't approach.' Peach has a bit more trouble with this mindset against Samus because of our long-ranged game.

If a Peach tries getting inside your zone with an aerial turnip into an aerial, reject her turnip from the start with a Zair. CS will go through/stop turnips as well, which is useful for stopping glide tossing. Basically train your opponent not to use turnips against you, and everything becomes a ton easier because you outrange her and she can't stop your projectiles.

Don't get Dair'd at low %. It's an easy 40 damage for Peach. And don't get Dthrow'd at low %, because I believe you can get Ftilt'd/Utilt'd.

A nice thing for Samus is that Peach has lots and lots of trouble killing her. Like No-ID said, Fair and Nair is probably what Peach will go for. There's a very small chance of her hitting you with an Usmash.

Samus' Fair and Uair rack up damage once you have Peach getting combo'd in the air. It's hard for her to combo break; she has to get her momentum.

Umm I'll add later but I gotta go right now.

 

[KillerJawz]

I know this has nothing to do with Xyro, but you're saying you play against the best Bowser in the world. Xyro is the best Samus main in the world, not you. I cannot really determine that based off of Wi-Fi, though. So, maybe there will be Xyro versus your friend.

Yes, he is currently the best Samus main in the world, according to statistics and whatnot. However I never only Ixis was the best, I also said one of the best. It was still a while back, and despite Xyro being the best, iirc, he has not played a decent Bowser in a while, im just saying that.

Also, I don't know who Vex Kasrani is.

Wow, seriously? He was one of the best Bowsers until he dropped Bowser for PIT (ROFL )

Also, thanks for the Peach information, do we have any moves that clank with fair or beat it?

@NO-IDea, I thought Peach could camp? I guess just not against us? I find that Dair> Dair> Nair> Uair works really well on me D:.

@ Smash G 0 D, When Peach does the dthrow, can we DI out of it to avoid the tilt? Also what kind of %s does a sweetspotted usmash kill us?

 

[NO-IDea]

Turnip, wait for you to missile/z-air, perfect shield->glide toss->jab. It's really depressing. Either take preventative measures by z-airing as she gets turnip, or overwhelm her with spam at a safe distance. Be sure to use dash grabbing to punish attempts to perfect shield.

Still, against Samus, it'd be a worse MU for us if the Peach gets out of the mindset of camping and go aggressive. I'd call shielding to glide tossing aggressive anyway, since Peach commits to a space close to the shield at the end of the glide toss for a follow-up. And Peach's d-air combos works on everyone dude. I still haven't figured out a consistent way to SDI and combo break it. =/

Sweet spotted u-smash kills probably 110%. For the d-throw, DI towards her, then jump before she attempts to follow-up with b-air.

No moves beat Peach's f-air in our arsenal. If you can perfect shield it, you can of course up+b OoS. I find it kind of risky though; it's certainly something you'd need to practice. Otherwise, if she tries using f-air barely above the ground, try to vertically space a b-air. If she does it from a short hop, do a retreating z-air. Basically, if you let f-air hit your shield when you don't perfect shield it, you're at a disadvantage. Try not to let it happen.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

DI towards her? What? Won't that get you an Utilt in the face? .___________.

And Usmash should kill earlier than 110% me thinks..

I dunno. I'll have to test this stuff out with llod.

 

[NO-IDea]

The down throw? The one where she slams you on the ground? I thought it sends the person behind her, so if you further DI in that direction, it would avoid any follow-ups. Dunno, I suggest you check since llod mains her. I'm probably wrong.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Yeah. You said DI towardssss her. That's what confused me.

Oh but sometimes llod goes for Ftilt if they don't DI or DI upwards, so I'll check with him to see if that hits.

 

[Xyro77]

peach vs samus is 50-50
bowser is 65-35 favor samus


u-smash is trash. try not to use it.





edit: i keep forgetting to put up the dk/ike/bowser stuff. i will do it tonight. i have nothing to do.

 

[KillerJawz]

bowser is 65-35 favor samus

We are not going to agree on this so I won't bother explaining. Put whatever you think is right and I'll go with it.

u-smash is trash. try not to use it.

THANK YOU <3. It's a **** terrible move, finally someone notices this <.<.

@NO-IDea, I thought it sent you upwards x.x, or am I thinking of a different throw?

 

[Xyro77]

When i put up the bowser vs samus match-up ill put you down for 60-40(isnt that what u thought it was) and ill put my match-up article up as 65-35. its good to have different opinions about match-ups because it give the reader MANY ideas and MANY ways to try the match-up.

 

[KillerJawz]

When i put up the bowser vs samus match-up ill put you down for 60-40(isnt that what u thought it was) and ill put my match-up article up as 65-35. its good to have different opinions about match-ups because it give the reader MANY ideas and MANY ways to try the match-up.

Yeah 60-40 was my original thought, many thanks Xyro.

 

[LucasGrey]

I suck against underused character so i cant say much bout samus versus bowser.

 

[lloDownedu74]

Sorry to interrupt, but I have some advice against Peach

Things to Do:
- Missiles and Zair discourage Peach from approaching. Use them
- Playing on the edge helps
- Control the stage
- OoS Up+B

Things Not to Do:
- Approach often
- Try to shield everything
- Be above peach/in a vulnerable position

Things Peach Can Do:
- Tons of shield pressure
- Early dair combos
- Turnips
- A fair with an incredible range
- Uair chain/combos

Things Peach should avoid:
- Approaching predictable
- Misspace aerials
- Jump off the edge

There's a lot more to the matchup (obviously), but I'm kinda tired right now lol.
A lot of people say that the perfect Peach doesn't approach at all. Aggression doesn't work for her as well has patience and campiness does. Obviously, if the opponent doesn't approach either, then Peach has to approach, but cautiously. When approaching, Peaches tend to approach slowly, avoiding any projectiles and trying to land a combo starter. So don't expect a full on aggressive rush.

Samus's OoS ub+b works really well against peach, especially after you shield a fair. The problem is, if the Peach spaces the fair perfectly, then the Up+b will miss, allowing Peach to punish Samus, so watch out for that

Playing on the edge is one of Samus's huge advantages against Peach. Peach doesn't have much on the edge, so staying there is a safe place. If peach jumps off the stage, then spiking peach is kinda easy

Try to avoid being directly above Peach. Peach's uair works really well for juggling purposes, especially against samus.

Peach's dthrow usually is followed up by utilt or ftilt. I'm pretty sure you can't DI out of it at low percents, but I might be wrong.

Finally, killing. After playing Smash god's samus a lot, I've seen the two main killing moves: dair and dtilt. Obviously, dair only works off the stage, and it can gimp at low percents, which is good. For dtilt, it's much harder to land because Peach can float. If samus is standing in one spot, and Peach is at 140% floating in the air a few feet in front, what can Samus do to kill???

For peach, peach has fair, fsmash, and usmash as her 3 main killing moves, with nair and bair as her secondary moves. Fair is bound to kill Samus eventually, just because of its range. Fsmash is more of a punishing move, such as fair->fsmash to punish anything after a shield. With usmash, it can be considered "lucky" to land sometimes, but it is possible to get a guaranteed usmash. First of all, Samus dies at 83% with a fresh usmash. If Samus dsmashes Peach while Peach is shielding, then Peach can run fowards and usmash, guaranteed. This also works against Samus's Fsmash and dtilt, but only if Peach powershields it. So, watch out for Peach's shield.

K that's all I have to say for now

~lloD

 

[Xyro77]

Ok guys ive added the ike and dk match-p to the front page. I have also noticed something else, there are more samus mains than there are match-up ratios on each of the characters. Lets take rob for example! ONLY me and noidea provided a ration(we both happened to say 50-50) so can we all agree its 50-50? The point of me bringing this up is i am about to add rations to the MAIN chart on the front page and i would like it if ALL of you went back and look at the characters we talked about thus far and post your opinion(ration).



TL;DR

Go back and look at all the match-ups we have talked about and please post a ratio(50-50, 80-20...ect) so i can average them out and add a TRUE ratio to the MAIN chart. PLEASE do that in your next post!

 

[RaigothDagon]

I've only fought against 2 good Rob players, one of them being a Rob main. But if you really want my opinion on this, yes, I'd say it is 50-50. Rob is very tough to fight against because he can almost match us in spam. However, the problem Rob has is as long as we remain campy it is very very difficult for him to approach us. The advantage he has on us however is that he actually has kill moves, and eventually we will have to approach him to get ours on him unless we wait for him to goof up on a super missle or something.

 

[KillerJawz]

Go back and look at all the match-ups we have talked about and please post a ratio(50-50, 80-20...ect) so i can average them out and add a TRUE ratio to the MAIN chart. PLEASE do that in your next post!

Well, I can't add anything for the R.O.B MU since it's one of my worst MUs. However. I can give a quick one for the following since I have some experience (and won) against these characters against some pretty decent players over here.

Samus - Marth = 70-30 Marth's Favor
Samus - Yoshi = 65-35 Samus's Favor
Samus - MK = 80-20 Mk Favor
Samus - Zero Suit Samus = 50-50 Even
Samus - Bowser = 60-40 Samus's Favor
Samus - Kirby = 50-50 Even
Samus - Falco = 70-30 Falco's Favor
Samus - Captain Falcon = 60-40 Samus's Favor
Samus - Ganondorf = 70-30 Samus's Favor
Samus - Jigglypuff = 55-45 Samus's Favor
Samus - Snake = 55-45 Snake's Favor (I've changed my mind about this being even)
Samus - Mario = 55-45 Mario's Favor
Samus - Pikachu = 60-40 Pikachu's Favor
Samus - Diddy Kong 65-35 Diddy's Favor

Those are the ones I feel I have more experience then other MUs in.

@llod, a superb writeup, but where you said Samus dies to a fresh Usmash at 83%, I've lived a tad past 90 with good DI, do you mean without DI?

 

[Mr9]

hey guys whats a good toon link counter pick stage?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

KillerJawz: I think it's stage dependent. 83% might be an average.

Mr9: Brinstar. UpB anywhere in the middle if he gets close to you/above you and you'll land safely on the top platform. Zair him in the air and Zair/CS his boomerangs/arrows. Avoid bomb altogether. Break the stage in the middle and camp on the very right side of the stage, right next to the ledge behind the little pillar thingy. His arrows and stuff won't get to you there and you can safely charge your CS and refresh your moves by jabbing the breakable part. To break the middle of the stage safely use Uair or UpB from below. If TL is chasing you, breaking the stage REALLY can mess him up (gimp). It happens more often than people expect: Samus is being chased, Samus breaks the stage, and the opponent jumps and UpB's, then helplessly falls through the gap. Also, homing missiles all around is a nice touch. I like canceling them with the platforms so that I can run off and get another one quickly and laglessly. Kills are fairly easy because of the smallness of the stage. Dtilt at high %, and even lower if you're at the top platform. Utilt has great rage on this stage. Oh, and if you're Samus-ing on the left edge, you can jump -> Zair the breakable part in the middle to make it last satisfyingly longer.

 

[lloDownedu74]

Some thread said usmash kills Samus at 83%. Even I kinda doubt that from how heavy samus is, but I guess its maybe at FD, with a fresh usmash and no DI

 

[KillerJawz]

Some thread said usmash kills Samus at 83%. Even I kinda doubt that from how heavy samus is, but I guess its maybe at FD, with a fresh usmash and no DI

It's not FD because just yesterday I lived a sweetspotted USmash from Peach at 90%, I admit it could probably have killed me with an extra 5-10% but it's definatly not 83%, yeah I suppose on Halberd or Green Green's it's DEFINATLY a KO at 83.

 

[Mr9]

KillerJawz: I think it's stage dependent. 83% might be an average.

Mr9: Brinstar. UpB anywhere in the middle if he gets close to you/above you and you'll land safely on the top platform. Zair him in the air and Zair/CS his boomerangs/arrows. Avoid bomb altogether. Break the stage in the middle and camp on the very right side of the stage, right next to the ledge behind the little pillar thingy. His arrows and stuff won't get to you there and you can safely charge your CS and refresh your moves by jabbing the breakable part. To break the middle of the stage safely use Uair or UpB from below. If TL is chasing you, breaking the stage REALLY can mess him up (gimp). It happens more often than people expect: Samus is being chased, Samus breaks the stage, and the opponent jumps and UpB's, then helplessly falls through the gap. Also, homing missiles all around is a nice touch. I like canceling them with the platforms so that I can run off and get another one quickly and laglessly. Kills are fairly easy because of the smallness of the stage. Dtilt at high %, and even lower if you're at the top platform. Utilt has great rage on this stage. Oh, and if you're Samus-ing on the left edge, you can jump -> Zair the breakable part in the middle to make it last satisfyingly longer.

cool are there any other stages?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I mean wherever you're comfortable, it really depends on your style. I also like taking TL to Stadium because you outrange him and CS works nicely there. Plus ledges can mess him up. You don't really need to approach at PS1 because you can rack up damage if he gets close. Just stay away from bombs and you're good.

 

[Mr9]

alright than thanks

 

[Rhyme]

I can now safely say that I've played enough good Falcos to know that this does actually work. This is a suggestion to help you outcamp Falco (which I believe is possible through playing intelligently).


Use UCS from the ground inbetween lazers. With SH->airdodge->Zair you're practically guaranteed to be able to Zair in Falco's direction shortly afterward. (I would usually follow Zair by either running away or Ftilting depending on what I think Falco will do, though with practice you should have enough time to react accordingly.) If Falco shields, feel free to repeat until he does something different. If he reflects it, the Zair destroys the UCS and hits him before he's able to shield. UCS also stops overB and DACUS, so you've got those options covered. Shield dodging towards you is rather hard to punish because his roll is very fast, but Ftilt will reset your spacing if you can time it correctly. Most Falcos won't jump because they cannot beat out Samus' zoning from above, but if he did then you would be left in a good position.

 

[KillerJawz]

Hey Xyro I did a little update on that chart we have on the front page with all the matchups we have discussed and given them colors in this format:
Light Green - Small Advantage (55-45)
Green - Advantage (60-40 , 65-35)
Dark Green - Big Advantage ( 70-30 +)
Yellow - Even (50-50)
Light Orange Slight Disadvantage (45-55)
Orange Disadvantage (40-60, 35-65)
Red - Disadvantage (30-70 +)

Here it is:

 

[Mr9]

you know i think we should have a videos on this thread for each match up, you know, i mean you guys say that if this guy does this than you do this, well a video or two to show examples could help out everyone i feel.

 

[Xyro77]

thats what the video threa is for.

 

[Mr9]

thats what the video threa is for.

i guess, i mean like just short clips of each rather than an entire match.

 

[KillerJawz]

i guess, i mean like just short clips of each rather than an entire match.

I see what your getting at, however, it's not good to just show a small clip (which is why you shouldn't be getting your moves off of combo videos) since you just think it's going to naturally occur like that, you need to get a whole look at the mindset of the player in the matchup rather then a short clip.

Btw Xyro I could really use some advise on my ledge game, you got AIM?