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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee
- Thread starter Prawn
- Start date
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
Sideb's range isn't an issue...have you seen the lag on it? It's sort of like complaining that DDD's fsmash has long range...but it's slower. You can run into it, and shield, and BOTH climbers will power shield (since the hitbox takes time to get extended), or you stand in the "dead zone" of it. I tried finding the hit bubbles, but there's a spot in sideb where it only has a short hitbox, and nothing the rest of the time, so you can shield, and then drop shield and do whatever, there's nothing to hurt you. If you're in the air, just b reverse blizzard, that beats stuff that outranges us, and gets you to the ground below her, and uair completely beats her in the air (just be desynched and ready to bair her for attempting to down b, if she does the spike out of downb, lolfreegrab or lolfreeupb. Ice block knocks her off tether, so if you anticipate her recovery, breverse "capeglide" (is that the right term, idk, the thing where your momentum continues off stage) ice blocks, and they drop in her trajectory to the stage. Uair immediately, and if you hit her, upb. If you miss, just sideb back on stage, no harm done. If she jabs, let her hit you, and grab the followup. It should desynch you, so grab + dsmash should be perfectly safe, one or the other (both?) should land unless she runs away (oh teh noes, 2 damage). She can't approach, and can't really do much to us unless we're off stage. Where's cura? He gets to play snakeee more often these days than I do.
EDIT:
See? Dead zone ftw.
Oh, and we can catch two suit pieces, throw the other one off, and camp her balls off.
EverAlert
Smash Master
hmm ok, I've been doing a bit of playing around to get a feel for things, and talking to a few people n stuff. Some notes:
- Side B outranges Blizzard. In the air, ZSS can retreat while Side B-ing to evade our Blizzard and still hit us. Also, her Side B's second hit comes out only slightly after the frame our first blizzard shard reaches its max range (which is still like half the range of her side b). And after that we have like a full second of lag while she has 10 frames. So yeah, I don't see us beating her in the air at all, least not with blizz or aerials.
- When I say how side b has so much range, what I'm getting at is if she does it far enough away that we won't be behind the second hit when it comes out (it hits "on top of" us or just a bit to either side), there's no way we have time to run in and punish (again, it has only 10 frames endlag). I agree if we stand in the deadzone then we can punish it, buuuut I don't think a smart ZSS will side b if we're close enough for that. (A lot of this is just theory, but talks with ZSS players seems to support it. One of them agrees with you though, so there you go.) What I'm iffy about is both characters' options when her side b stops being useful. If you can tell me why a ZSS would side b us from a punishable range then please do so?
- You can't do the capegliding thing with ice shot, when you do the block disappears. Unless you mean doing it in the air right after leaving the ledge? Either way, there's a very limited angle you can hit her with the block, the angles she can tether from are much more dynamic than that, and even if you hit her out of her tether the range on her tether is so great that she can retether right away with the ice shot stun completely unaffecting her (and this will actually cause her to fall a bit lower into a position ice shot will never hit). After playing around with this, actually, imo the best thing we can do to edgeguard is desync nana to take the ledge while popo stays onstage, this completely stops all of ZSS' tether options and forces her to recover predictably above stage with down b. This also avoids all of the dangers of pursuing ANY character offstage.
- What I'm getting at with Down B above us when we can UAir is purely to let her get away safely. I didn't mean to imply her spring kick beats our UAir or anything. Also ZSS players mentioned because of her much better aerial mobility, she could also nair/bair slightly to the side to hit us out of it, our uair has basically zero sidewards hit potential.
- Same thing with jab after dsmash on shield. ZSS will never try to follow up, she will just jab once to make her dsmash safe then jump away. Or, she will mixup by doing nothing if she expects you to sit in your shield expecting the jab. Yes, it's just 2%, but the point is the 0% you're getting on her.
- I really don't think she needs to approach. She can damage us from farther away than we can damage her. She can easily bounce back ice blocks with afaik all her attacks, which is the only thing we have that (weakly) outranges her entire moveset.
Also other things not related to your points:
- None of her aerials will hit us on the rise of a short hop, she has to wait until she's falling to hit us. Although if she does hit our shield, the shieldpush is pretty significant. I'll need to play a bit with someone to test whether our running momentum cancels out the shieldpush. But yeah short hop aerials from her is just grab bait imo. Of course we can aerial her at any point of a short hop, bair then nair for safest oos moves?
- Neutral B only hits/stuns one climber. Also imo it has its uses if she bounces it away from us in the air so that she keeps away, more as an options limiter than an actual threat.
- Uhh, random, but I found our jab combo isn't inescapable on ZSS until ~45%. Just something to know I guess.
tbh I don't think it's as easy as "taking two of her armor pieces and throwing the other away." This is something I really struggle with actually, so I'm very interested to see good examples of armor control in this matchup.
Anyway hopefully I explained what I meant properly, if you still insist we can deal with these situations then I'll be very interested to know why.
This is shaping up to be a very good discussion.
I'll make images to illustrate my points better tomorrow (mainly the recovery thing), I'm tired now and need sleep. I'll also test some more stuff live playing my brother tomorrow, get a better idea of things than awkwardly trying to control two characters at once with both hands. :/ And I'm going to talk to Zero again, hopefully he'll explain things to me more thoroughly about this matchup. Will relay stuff here of course. :3
- Side B outranges Blizzard. In the air, ZSS can retreat while Side B-ing to evade our Blizzard and still hit us. Also, her Side B's second hit comes out only slightly after the frame our first blizzard shard reaches its max range (which is still like half the range of her side b). And after that we have like a full second of lag while she has 10 frames. So yeah, I don't see us beating her in the air at all, least not with blizz or aerials.
- When I say how side b has so much range, what I'm getting at is if she does it far enough away that we won't be behind the second hit when it comes out (it hits "on top of" us or just a bit to either side), there's no way we have time to run in and punish (again, it has only 10 frames endlag). I agree if we stand in the deadzone then we can punish it, buuuut I don't think a smart ZSS will side b if we're close enough for that. (A lot of this is just theory, but talks with ZSS players seems to support it. One of them agrees with you though, so there you go.) What I'm iffy about is both characters' options when her side b stops being useful. If you can tell me why a ZSS would side b us from a punishable range then please do so?
- You can't do the capegliding thing with ice shot, when you do the block disappears. Unless you mean doing it in the air right after leaving the ledge? Either way, there's a very limited angle you can hit her with the block, the angles she can tether from are much more dynamic than that, and even if you hit her out of her tether the range on her tether is so great that she can retether right away with the ice shot stun completely unaffecting her (and this will actually cause her to fall a bit lower into a position ice shot will never hit). After playing around with this, actually, imo the best thing we can do to edgeguard is desync nana to take the ledge while popo stays onstage, this completely stops all of ZSS' tether options and forces her to recover predictably above stage with down b. This also avoids all of the dangers of pursuing ANY character offstage.
- What I'm getting at with Down B above us when we can UAir is purely to let her get away safely. I didn't mean to imply her spring kick beats our UAir or anything. Also ZSS players mentioned because of her much better aerial mobility, she could also nair/bair slightly to the side to hit us out of it, our uair has basically zero sidewards hit potential.
- Same thing with jab after dsmash on shield. ZSS will never try to follow up, she will just jab once to make her dsmash safe then jump away. Or, she will mixup by doing nothing if she expects you to sit in your shield expecting the jab. Yes, it's just 2%, but the point is the 0% you're getting on her.
- I really don't think she needs to approach. She can damage us from farther away than we can damage her. She can easily bounce back ice blocks with afaik all her attacks, which is the only thing we have that (weakly) outranges her entire moveset.
Also other things not related to your points:
- None of her aerials will hit us on the rise of a short hop, she has to wait until she's falling to hit us. Although if she does hit our shield, the shieldpush is pretty significant. I'll need to play a bit with someone to test whether our running momentum cancels out the shieldpush. But yeah short hop aerials from her is just grab bait imo. Of course we can aerial her at any point of a short hop, bair then nair for safest oos moves?
- Neutral B only hits/stuns one climber. Also imo it has its uses if she bounces it away from us in the air so that she keeps away, more as an options limiter than an actual threat.
- Uhh, random, but I found our jab combo isn't inescapable on ZSS until ~45%. Just something to know I guess.
tbh I don't think it's as easy as "taking two of her armor pieces and throwing the other away." This is something I really struggle with actually, so I'm very interested to see good examples of armor control in this matchup.
Anyway hopefully I explained what I meant properly, if you still insist we can deal with these situations then I'll be very interested to know why.
This is shaping up to be a very good discussion.
I'll make images to illustrate my points better tomorrow (mainly the recovery thing), I'm tired now and need sleep. I'll also test some more stuff live playing my brother tomorrow, get a better idea of things than awkwardly trying to control two characters at once with both hands. :/ And I'm going to talk to Zero again, hopefully he'll explain things to me more thoroughly about this matchup. Will relay stuff here of course. :3
Teh Future
Smash Master
youre probably just bad imo
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
im pretty sure zamus' side b is useless because like cheese said, you can perfect shield it then grab sorta like D3, i think...
i dont see this being in ZSS favor, but im pretty new so i might be wrong (probably)
i dont see this being in ZSS favor, but im pretty new so i might be wrong (probably)
EverAlert
Smash Master
Uhh, okay. A couple of images to illustrate my point:
This is the range where her Side B will overlap you fully. If you can run up from this distance and grab her within 10 frames, go for it. A little closer than this is the dead-zone, but if she spaces it properly then you won't be any closer than this when Side B hits, and she's safe.
This is about as close as you can be for her to safely Side B. From here she can short hop back and Side B while retreating, it will hit you at full range even if you're running at her. If Popo's at the edge, she can safely Side B with him running at her while she's standing still.
I don't know why she would Side B if you're any closer than this. But if she does, by all means shieldgrab her for it, gg.
I'ma go play some smish with my brother now, will report back later with results + recovery diagram thingy.
Future - I know trolling's fun and all, but we all stopped insulting each other like half a week ago. How about you stop losing to Ganons and learn enough about this character to contribute?
This is the range where her Side B will overlap you fully. If you can run up from this distance and grab her within 10 frames, go for it. A little closer than this is the dead-zone, but if she spaces it properly then you won't be any closer than this when Side B hits, and she's safe.
This is about as close as you can be for her to safely Side B. From here she can short hop back and Side B while retreating, it will hit you at full range even if you're running at her. If Popo's at the edge, she can safely Side B with him running at her while she's standing still.
I don't know why she would Side B if you're any closer than this. But if she does, by all means shieldgrab her for it, gg.
I'ma go play some smish with my brother now, will report back later with results + recovery diagram thingy.
Future - I know trolling's fun and all, but we all stopped insulting each other like half a week ago. How about you stop losing to Ganons and learn enough about this character to contribute?
EverAlert
Smash Master
Just quickly posting with the diagram thingy for ZSS' tether recovery before I go to bed. It shows approximations of the range and angles she can tether from (blue), and an approximation of the trajectory of our Ice Shot (red). The stage layout/boundaries are exact specifications, it's a screenshot from BrawlWall.
http://i50.tinypic.com/kbeqna.gif
Didn't get to test stuff 'cause my brother didn't feel like playing. Oh well, next time.
http://i50.tinypic.com/kbeqna.gif
Didn't get to test stuff 'cause my brother didn't feel like playing. Oh well, next time.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
Tether and Ice block seems about right, it approximately divides it in half, and she can pretty easily swing through it and get hit (and you can jump to modify the angle a bit, as well). The thing about sideb is that it's VERY easy to powershield, and thus grab at pretty much any range.
Teh Future
Smash Master
theres nothing to contribute to zzs lol. Just grab her gg. it really is that easy
EverAlert
Smash Master
Like I said she has stupid range on her tether, she can just immediately retether and be safe from the ice shot trajectory.
Also yes range does matter, lolwat. You can't just grab anyone from anywhere because you powershielded their attack. Even if you powershield it when spaced properly there just isn't enough time to run in and grab, you won't even get halfway before her lag ends. >.>
EDIT:
Rearranged slightly for coherency, message is the same though.
EDIT2:
theres nothing to contribute to mk lol. Just grab her gg. it really is that easy
Teh Future
Smash Master
mk doesn't have **** imo
B0NK
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,282
From my experience with playing Snakeee in friendlies at pound 4...if the ZSS is spacing her side-b right (of course retreating) the only option you have is to close the distance more giving the ZSS player less options.
In those friendlies the only time I ended up in the blind spot of the side-b was because Snakeee mis-spaced the side-b. It's seems to me that's it's unfortunate that side-b is ZSS only real spacing tool on climbers since a mis-spaced side-b or a timed approach from the IC's player equals death.
Also when your close, ZSS's only real options are a fast tilt/jab, d-smash, spotdodge, and jumping away which the ZSS will mix-up. ZSS player will be playing a bait and punish game the whole time trying to get the climber player above her where she can do some real damage. A well timed spotdodge from the ZSS player can end-up being an up-tilt into her choice of u-airs, up-smash, up-b, etc which is what the IC's player should avoid when they get close enough.
Snakeee usually just threw the suit pieces off the stage when the stage is a flat field because if climbers get a hold of the pieces it's bad news. The only time the pieces were thrown at me was on BF where if I start up desynched, nana would get hit and separated, or if i just got off the platform the pieces would be off stage out of my hands.
If climbers get a hold of the pieces it's like having an up-air with more range as you desynch...if they try to jump over your wall of blizzards you throw the piece up...if she attempts to side-b through your blizzard you throw the piece straight and stop it, close the distance between yourself and ZSS.
ZSS's grab isn't a bad tool to separate the climbers, but it's obviously to risky to use most of the time (A miss=death >.<). The only time I can see the ZSS using it is if your sit in your shield or she pivot grabs as you dash towards her.
Basically from the start of the match, the ZSS will camp, once you get close enough to make side-b an un-safe option watch how the ZSS reacts, if she is jumping over you up-air or wait for her to land and punish. If she jab/d-smashes/spotdodge mix-ups it's just waiting for the time to punish with a well placed perfect shield or grabbing out of her spotdodge. This match-up is hard for ZSS just because your answer to those options means that you won't be taking much damage because you can just shield...if the ZSS is stupid enough to try and grab, your spotdodge out of sheild equals=death for the ZSS.
I don't like putting numbers on match-ups but I see the match-up as IC's advantage.
In those friendlies the only time I ended up in the blind spot of the side-b was because Snakeee mis-spaced the side-b. It's seems to me that's it's unfortunate that side-b is ZSS only real spacing tool on climbers since a mis-spaced side-b or a timed approach from the IC's player equals death.
Also when your close, ZSS's only real options are a fast tilt/jab, d-smash, spotdodge, and jumping away which the ZSS will mix-up. ZSS player will be playing a bait and punish game the whole time trying to get the climber player above her where she can do some real damage. A well timed spotdodge from the ZSS player can end-up being an up-tilt into her choice of u-airs, up-smash, up-b, etc which is what the IC's player should avoid when they get close enough.
Snakeee usually just threw the suit pieces off the stage when the stage is a flat field because if climbers get a hold of the pieces it's bad news. The only time the pieces were thrown at me was on BF where if I start up desynched, nana would get hit and separated, or if i just got off the platform the pieces would be off stage out of my hands.
If climbers get a hold of the pieces it's like having an up-air with more range as you desynch...if they try to jump over your wall of blizzards you throw the piece up...if she attempts to side-b through your blizzard you throw the piece straight and stop it, close the distance between yourself and ZSS.
ZSS's grab isn't a bad tool to separate the climbers, but it's obviously to risky to use most of the time (A miss=death >.<). The only time I can see the ZSS using it is if your sit in your shield or she pivot grabs as you dash towards her.
Basically from the start of the match, the ZSS will camp, once you get close enough to make side-b an un-safe option watch how the ZSS reacts, if she is jumping over you up-air or wait for her to land and punish. If she jab/d-smashes/spotdodge mix-ups it's just waiting for the time to punish with a well placed perfect shield or grabbing out of her spotdodge. This match-up is hard for ZSS just because your answer to those options means that you won't be taking much damage because you can just shield...if the ZSS is stupid enough to try and grab, your spotdodge out of sheild equals=death for the ZSS.
I don't like putting numbers on match-ups but I see the match-up as IC's advantage.
r3d d09
Smash Master
wish i could contribute to this. but never really have had any zzs
rchau
Smash Cadet
ROB imo pl0x. Best player in Oregon plays a very aggressive ROB. doesn't even spam projectiles. BAIR on rob is hella good. Dsmash separates us in the air. can be separated off the ledge by ROB if he edgehogs by nair/dair/bair.
rchau
Smash Cadet
most definitely agree. ROB isn't hard to CG imo, but its hard as **** to get that grab without getting juggled/separated.
Friend me on AiB bro.
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
No such thing as hard to CG. He's not even THAT hard to grab. It's just that if you slip at all, nana dies. Add me.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
shield lasers, shield gyros, shield sop dodge -> dsmash, get under him -> GG.
its a bad idea to chase rob due to bair's disjointed/extended hitbox. if you do though, be ready to power shield his attacks.
the main strategy for this matchup is to get under him. if you're under him, he's dead. you don't even need the CG. he has very few option when people are below him, and dair is a terrible attack. i'd suggest a stage like BF where you can force him up. if he goes off the side, be ready for a laser/gyro as its his best way to get a clear opening back onto the stage. if he's below you, then pray to god you can get back to the ground, otherwise its pretty much over.
rob really isn't that bad to a point. he has some pretty predictable moves that can be shielded easily. and punished well. just get below him and uair your heart out. if he tries to DI, keep after him, but if he gets too low, look for the bair.
now, this doesn't address nair and ftilt, which he should be using fairly often. nair is his spacing attack. he will use it to approach, to retreat, to follow up (sometimes), and occasionally just to **** with you. it has a lasting hitbox which means you need to know the timing if you intend on punishing it. note, however, that blizzard beats it. space it carefully and he won't be able to get through, though that is to say that walling is a bad idea as lasers go through both blizzard and ice blocks.
his ftilt is also a great tool for spacing. it has the ability to trip at a certain distance. he will use it to combat certain tactics such as dash -> shield grab by applying pressure. i believe it can also beat out squall when spaced properly. again, blizzard is a great answer to this attack as it outranges and out prioritizes it, but don't over use blizzard for the same reason as above; he can SDI out and laser you, which can be very bad at higher percents. luckily, if he's in the air, this attack is not a problem.
finally, don't use squall in this matchup. don't. do not. blizzard is only ok when used sparingly (it can stop gyros, but then he can just follow up with a laser). This matchup requires you to know the basic play style of rob, and be able to see what he will be setting up for. if he's at a distance, expect gyros/lasers (shield both), when you're up close expect dsmash (but don't assume every spot dodge will lead to one. good robs won't do that). when he's in the air, expect nairs and bair, then counter with uair (sometimes you can even mindgame them into landing an up b). if he's on the ground, expect tilts, lasers, gyros, sh n/dair, and all manner of other nasty things. If you can just get him into the air, you should be fine. i promise, he can not do anything when you're under him if you're doing it right.
its a bad idea to chase rob due to bair's disjointed/extended hitbox. if you do though, be ready to power shield his attacks.
the main strategy for this matchup is to get under him. if you're under him, he's dead. you don't even need the CG. he has very few option when people are below him, and dair is a terrible attack. i'd suggest a stage like BF where you can force him up. if he goes off the side, be ready for a laser/gyro as its his best way to get a clear opening back onto the stage. if he's below you, then pray to god you can get back to the ground, otherwise its pretty much over.
rob really isn't that bad to a point. he has some pretty predictable moves that can be shielded easily. and punished well. just get below him and uair your heart out. if he tries to DI, keep after him, but if he gets too low, look for the bair.
now, this doesn't address nair and ftilt, which he should be using fairly often. nair is his spacing attack. he will use it to approach, to retreat, to follow up (sometimes), and occasionally just to **** with you. it has a lasting hitbox which means you need to know the timing if you intend on punishing it. note, however, that blizzard beats it. space it carefully and he won't be able to get through, though that is to say that walling is a bad idea as lasers go through both blizzard and ice blocks.
his ftilt is also a great tool for spacing. it has the ability to trip at a certain distance. he will use it to combat certain tactics such as dash -> shield grab by applying pressure. i believe it can also beat out squall when spaced properly. again, blizzard is a great answer to this attack as it outranges and out prioritizes it, but don't over use blizzard for the same reason as above; he can SDI out and laser you, which can be very bad at higher percents. luckily, if he's in the air, this attack is not a problem.
finally, don't use squall in this matchup. don't. do not. blizzard is only ok when used sparingly (it can stop gyros, but then he can just follow up with a laser). This matchup requires you to know the basic play style of rob, and be able to see what he will be setting up for. if he's at a distance, expect gyros/lasers (shield both), when you're up close expect dsmash (but don't assume every spot dodge will lead to one. good robs won't do that). when he's in the air, expect nairs and bair, then counter with uair (sometimes you can even mindgame them into landing an up b
). if he's on the ground, expect tilts, lasers, gyros, sh n/dair, and all manner of other nasty things. If you can just get him into the air, you should be fine. i promise, he can not do anything when you're under him if you're doing it right.
EverAlert
Smash Master
Oh man, I have like one smashfest and we're already onto ROB. xD
I'll have to sit this one out, last real ROB experience I've had was over a year ago, and even then I had no idea what to do in the matchup heh.
B0NK - Thanks for the input, I can agree with most of what you're saying except I still don't think it's good for us (although the more I learn about ZSS, the less I think it's 70:30 like experience/zzs mains tell me, I can see it being 50:50 though). I'm going to continue studying this matchup from the sidelines since it's one I've wanted to tackle for a while now and I want to know it more intimately than just generalisations.
I'll have to sit this one out, last real ROB experience I've had was over a year ago, and even then I had no idea what to do in the matchup heh.
B0NK - Thanks for the input, I can agree with most of what you're saying except I still don't think it's good for us (although the more I learn about ZSS, the less I think it's 70:30 like experience/zzs mains tell me, I can see it being 50:50 though). I'm going to continue studying this matchup from the sidelines since it's one I've wanted to tackle for a while now and I want to know it more intimately than just generalisations.
sauc3
Smash Lord
rob is the gayest/hardest matchup ever, I cannot play this for ****, chaingrabs are hard, and getting the grab is harder.
Advice? go mk or ddd, ...
yeah...
Advice? go mk or ddd, ...
yeah...
rchau
Smash Cadet
going to have to agree. Many of the ROB vs IC matches on youtube, the Robs are campy/aren't actually that good. The best player in Oregon is a rob, and he plays hella offensive. I'd say just counterpick. but the person suggesting getting under rob could be right. It's just easier said than done.... and if the ROB catches on, then it becomes a spam war, and his spam wins =\
r3d d09
Smash Master
Just saying, Belay works wonders in this match up. Just keep yourself open to that. I'm a person who kills with belay on occasion. Unlike some IC's. Just be open to things.
Aglow
Smash Journeyman
This. Minus the awkward part. Uair can get messed up by his neutral air, so belay is a nice way to nab a stock.
Don't miss!
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
except that if he predicts it he can just air dodge > punish. our uair can beat his nair if you time/space it properly. condition him to expect uairs when gets sent up, then just wait for the air dodge and up b. if you just throw the up b out there then you get *****. i would recommend holding off on overusing belay as 9 times out of 10 you'll be the one losing a stock instead if you decide to use it over uair.
LuLLo
Smash Ace
It shouldn't be too hard to connect Belay, since it's VERY predictable when ROB's use their Nair, it also has start-up, so keep focussed on what he is doing and you shouldn't be missing. Most ROB's time their Nair so that when you arrive, the hitbox is out, use this to your advantage and punish them for it.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
r3d d09
Smash Master
i need to play against my states rob, but lately he's been going falco... i will ask him for some experience and some tips. he's chill like that.
This is completely true.
I am worst player in Oregon, just ask anyone here...
(But it's also true that I'm the best player in Oregon by far. Quite a conundrum.)
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
Thanks for stopping by with some useless information about a tiny region's best players. Care to contribute to the matchup talk?
r3d d09
Smash Master
i played some rob today, he doesn't main him or anything, but i can't complain. I understand more why this is hard match up.
if you can learn the japan desync* cant think of that it's called at the moment, the one that desyncs by shield* this thing will help a lot. the two times i did it, it helped me out so much and ended up getting me the grab. I will write some more up hopefully this weekend after a tourney.
if you can learn the japan desync* cant think of that it's called at the moment, the one that desyncs by shield* this thing will help a lot. the two times i did it, it helped me out so much and ended up getting me the grab. I will write some more up hopefully this weekend after a tourney.
You're welcome.
BTW, my tiny region is actually part of the Pacific Northwest, which is 2nd best region on West Coast (next to SoCal). It's an area that makes yours look tiny. Not that size matters, it's good players.
And, no, I don't think I want to post about the matchup.
However, you'll find a BIG writeup on the matchup from me at AllisBrawl after someone from these boards inquired it in a much nicer way without trying to insult me/my area X^D
r3d d09
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOVYUl9E6wQ recent video of lain vs a oli.
00-Zero
Smash Journeyman
What he did at 0:17 Nana roll backwards with popo up airing is such a good tactic. Not necessarily only up air, but that desync itself.
r3d d09
Smash Master
i didn't see that before. that's pretty cool. looks like a blond roll but he jumped o.o
xExile
Smash Cadet
Are these matchups ever going to be completed seems like they just sorta stopped and a lot of characters haven't been covered yet. However, I can't really contribute much to the R.O.B discussion I don't have very much experience in playing any. Haven't met any in my region. =[
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
zom~b was our last great one. i got to play him a lot before he quit, but now i guess neo_x is the only one and he's nowhere near as impressive.