Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[GHNeko]

You are aware that some combos work even with proper DI, right? In fact, if a combo doesn't work with proper DI, it probably isn't going to be very usable in competitive circles. Note that substituting moves doesn't count as an escapable combo. In melee, Falcon dthrow to followup is a combo regardless of DI. DI only changes the nature of the followup.

Would you really like the chaingrab better if you could move all three sprites along the platform while you're being infinited. It'd feel the same to me.

That's not exactly true. They might become more situational, but to say that they wont be very usable is probably a bit too much.

And at least with combos that are inescapable, they only last for a few hits before DI plays a significant part.

There are also no such things as a zero-death inescapable combo in B+. All Zero-Deaths are pretty much worked for and earned on account of proper reading and tech skill.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In fact, if a combo doesn't work with proper DI, it probably isn't going to be very usable in competitive circles.

The ken combo, all of Falco's laser combos, up throw rest, Fox's upthrow->uair, Marth's uptilt and thunder's combo would all like to have a word with you. All of them are examples of the opponent doing something wrong!

They just don't always know what it is they're doing wrong. How the **** are you supposed to figure out that escaping Marth's uptilt chains is done by DIing in front of him until you reach the front half of the arc, then SDIing and DIing behind him and down on the next hit?

 

[Team Giza]

Did you read the whole thread FrozenPopo? The general idea is not getting rid of their ability to chainthrow the hell outta people, but rather change the way in which they have to do it. In other words they would have to mix up their chainthrows and chase DI when their opponents are at higher percentages.

Not only does this make Brawl+ look like its been designed better than vBrawl but it also is going to going to make buffing other aspects of them easier without having to worry about everything leading into an infinite. We will be able to buff up their desyncing abilities quite a bit. Speeding up the winddown and chaining some properties on their squall and blizzard will help them quite a bit while also adding additional chainthrows. There will be more changes than just these of coarse. All in all I want the Ice Climbers to perform better than they did in vBrawl but also have entertaining to watch chainthrows that destroy people.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You know, I might have to repeal my earlier statement.

I've seen way too many people come in here and post that the infinite is all the ICs have. People say that their metagame is built around this infinite.

Is that not the very definition of a broken character? Not broken in the MK sense, mind you. Broken in the fact that they have one good move in their entire arsenal. This one good move is promptly destroyed along with Nana.

However, how exactly can we justify buffing a character with an infinite? They need help, but they are surely not going to get it if they have throw-to-throw infinites in play.

I am beginning to fear that some are voting down the infinite removal simply because they don't want to "learn to ICs+". >_>;

 

[KarateF22]

You know, I might have to repeal my earlier statement.

I've seen way too many people come in here and post that the infinite is all the ICs have. People say that their metagame is built around this infinite.

Is that not the very definition of a broken character? Not broken in the MK sense, mind you. Broken in the fact that they have one good move in their entire arsenal. This one good move is promptly destroyed along with Nana.

However, how exactly can we justify buffing a character with an infinite? They need help, but they are surely not going to get it if they have throw-to-throw infinites in play.

I am beginning to fear that some are voting down the infinite removal simply because they don't want to "learn to ICs+". >_>;

Actually, the chain grab is our "best" option but the THREAT of it gives us other options. Without that threat we lose many of our best tactics that abuse the opponents fear of shielding.

Team Giza, just because it isnt fun for you to watch YOURSELF getting wrecked, doesnt mean that ice climbers dont enjoy chaingrabbing people as it is right now. I find it very fun and satisfying because i had to work my *** off setting up conditions to get that killer grab (or possibly they screwed up, but good players dont). Don't mistake the icies as a one-trick ponie. If you have ever seen good ice climbers go SoPo they can be almost as viable as with Nana. We are not completely reliant on her, but she sure is a nice bonus

 

[illinialex24]

Exactly, which is why your desyncs work so well. If you could just shield a desynced B-side in anticipation or blizzard safely not expecting a death chaingrab, you'd be safe from most of their options.

 

[KarateF22]

Exactly, which is why your desyncs work so well. If you could just shield a desynced B-side in anticipation or blizzard safely not expecting a death chaingrab, you'd be safe from most of their options.

Which is why removing or altering their chaingrab infinites in any way would wreck their playstyle.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Actually, the chain grab is our "best" option but the THREAT of it gives us other options. Without that threat we lose many of our best tactics that abuse the opponents fear of shielding.

You would still have the threat of being grabbed. It could very well kill you if the ICs player chains and predicts your DI effectively. Just no guaranteed infinite.

Then maybe there could be some work done on making the ICs not so horrid outside of their grabs.
Having a **** grab game is one thing. Having a **** grab game and NOTHING ELSE is a fundamentally broken character. People will learn to not get grabbed, and the ICs will suffer for it.

In Melee, they had wavedashing for mobility and their traction wasn't too horrid to make a shield grab viable. In Brawl+, they currently have nothing except a good grab game, granted you can grab your opponent at all with their less than desirable grab range and near useless shield grab.


I play the ICs off and on, but I wouldn't use them outside of friendlies. If the IC mains want their infinite bad enough to sacrifice the opportunity to make the ICs great, then I suppose I won't be affected by it. Carry on, all

Which is why removing or altering their chaingrab infinites in any way would wreck their playstyle.

Saying our only options are completely overhauled/wrecked ICs or Infinite grabbing ICs is just laughable.

We can change almost anything about this game and how the characters play. You think for a second with all these options that we can't make the ICs work without an infinite?

No. Just no.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah thats why its balanced. Her grab range. Its tiny.

 

[Team Giza]

Team Giza, just because it isnt fun for you to watch YOURSELF getting wrecked, doesnt mean that ice climbers dont enjoy chaingrabbing people as it is right now.

Lets put things into a bit of perspective. I have never been on the receiving end of the alternating throws. Ever. I've dished it out to people bit I have never had it happen to me. Dedede, Ice Climbers and Snake were there the characters I played most in vBrawl until I quit. Notably I never got too good at the game. However, you are suggesting I don't like it cause I'm on the receiving end, and this has never been true for me.

Part of the reason I don't like it its there is no thought to perform. Sure it takes practice to get it down but after that its pretty much mindless. However, a lot of my dislike for it actually comes from watching competitive matches. Because I am a huge fan of high level play of fighting games I end up watching a lot of matches of a wide variety of fighting games. The ice climbers alternating throws is one of the most boring thing I have ever seen in high level fighting games, ever. Now this is not a great reason to take it out of the game, however the smash bros series is a lot about prediction and limiting the players options as much as possible. Alternating throws completely take out the DI prediction aspect chainthrowing or comboing. I don't mind it limiting it to a nub and then be able to reverse everything they did with your next move as long as they can at least make the attempt so if the ice climbers player makes a mindless error or gets way too repetitive that they will lose the chainthrow.

I find it very fun and satisfying because i had to work my *** off setting up conditions to get that killer grab (or possibly they screwed up, but good players dont). Don't mistake the icies as a one-trick ponie. If you have ever seen good ice climbers go SoPo they can be almost as viable as with Nana. We are not completely reliant on her, but she sure is a nice bonus

Fine. But as long as the infinite remains in the game I will be against any buff to the ice climbers desyncs and grab set ups because I do not want many lead ups to this flawed chain.

 

[KarateF22]

TBH i think the ice climbers play fine atm. They CAN combo and if you predict DI properly you can combo into a grab. They dont need anything changed about them TBH.... the only thing i could think of is making it so that if nana is on a ledge but within sync range and you use upb shed teleport off and help (she doesnt atm, you just do it yourself and die) or if she is right next to you doing nothing while your doing nothing but for some reason your desynced and upb fails, with both ice climbers attempting but nothing happens... THATS stuff that needs fixxing.

TBH i dont want any ice climber buffs. They are fine as is. They just need fixxes on glitchy random desyncs that kill you.

And Team giza.... prediction IS required to get the grab. You need god prediction to get a grab with ice climbers. i believe thats prediction enough.

 

[Team Giza]

And Team giza.... prediction IS required to get the grab. You need god prediction to get a grab with ice climbers. i believe thats prediction enough.

I used to play as the Ice Climbers quite a bit I know how difficult it can be to get the grab. You are acting like these things will come as a big shock to me or something while all you are saying is pretty obvious junk.

If you think Ice Climbers are fine in brawl+ even though they have been the most nerfed character than fine. We can just leave them as an unviable character that has a poorly designed infinite.

 

[KarateF22]

I used to play as the Ice Climbers quite a bit I know how difficult it can be to get the grab. You are acting like these things will come as a big shock to me or something while all you are saying is pretty obvious junk.

Just trying to make a point. Anyways, i dont want any buffs to the ice climbers. I would like simple fixes though where upb and sideb inexplicably desync... usually killing you. Maybe you can add in a special sort of IASA frame on aerials that would make it so that if upb or sideb is used during the last bit it would cancel the remainder and force a resync. Because the only time this hurts the climbers is in the air. But i wouldnt really mind if that didnt get in. Would also be nice if moves like sideb and upb forced nana to join you even if she was on a ledge as long as you were within "sync" range. If those things are fixxed, i can honestly say the would be just where i want them to be.

 

[Team Giza]

Just a question. How many offline matches as ice climbers of brawl+ have you played against human players who had time to get used to the changes?

 

[1048576]

It's a shame that people jumped on the part I edited out for myself, while ignoring the rest of the post. The last paragraph was really my point.

Anyway, there's a way to fix the boringness while keeping the zero-death.

 

[KarateF22]

It's a shame that people jumped on the part I edited out for myself, while ignoring the rest of the post. The last paragraph was really my point.

Anyway, there's a way to fix the boringness while keeping the zero-death.

Boring for the victim, perhaps, but i find the chaingrab to be quite fun.

And Team Giza... like four GOOD offline ones as ice climbers vs fairly equally good players. One against MK, two against Diddy, one against ganondorf. All but the last one were fairly close... but then again the guy playing ganon was doing it for lulz. i won two, one vs ganon and one diddy, and lost the other two. Ive also played multiple online matches of brawl+ too.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'm still 100% for keeping the ICs CGs how they are, but i am somewhat interested in seeing what would be changed and how they would play.

 

[1048576]

Their grab game would be nerfed. Their damage and speed would be buffed. They would become a Mario clone.

 

[Team Giza]

Their grab game would be nerfed. Their damage and speed would be buffed. They would become a Mario clone.

The only speed buffs I have heard discussed were those to the winddown on blizzard, squall and jab. Which, interestingly enough, were all brought up to help them get grabs. I'll admit that I want to buff up their smash attacks knockback growth so that they kill at lower %s but still act similarly early on in the stock.

i'm still 100% for keeping the ICs CGs how they are, but i am somewhat interested in seeing what would be changed and how they would play.

The plan currently seems to be to make the alternating throws breakable. Basically when the throw is taking place the opponent could press whatever their grab action is at the correct time to break the grab. Even if they break the grab it would be possible for one of the Ice Climbers to follow up with something other than a grab. However, if they try to perform the grab break and the second grab doesn't come it leaves them unable to DI for a few frames which would allow the Ice climbers to use one of their other chainthrows. Even if the opponent does end up escaping I wouldn't be surprised if using a blizzard or squall right after would lead to a guaranteed follow up grabs at low/mid %s.

There are going to be specific buffs made to the squall, blizzard, jab, and hopefully other moves as well that would allow for them to be better used in chaingrab links (some made harder to DI or give more stun). I'm trying to look into ways to put in new ways to desync that would make it easier to punish people and try to get throw out good grab set ups. Depending on the functionality of the move I have recently been considering testing out having the ice blocks force tripping and see if that has positive effects on their game (it should since it would have them a better chance at getting a grab in).

edit: Maybe one of the brawl+ Ice climbers players can tell me what stuff the Ice Climbers have gained from the brawl+ system changes. All I know of now few of their moves being a bit harder to DI because of the hitlag code which also acts as a double edge sword since Ice Climbers used to be able to capitalize on hitlag. Perhaps I am looking too much at the negative effects that Brawl+ has had on them. What new advantages do they have?

 

[meepxzero]

The only speed buffs I have heard discussed were those to the winddown on blizzard, squall and jab. Which, interestingly enough, were all brought up to help them get grabs. I'll admit that I want to buff up their smash attacks knockback growth so that they kill at lower %s but still act similarly early on in the stock.

The plan currently seems to be to make the alternating throws breakable. Basically when the throw is taking place the opponent could press whatever their grab action is at the correct time to break the grab. Even if they break the grab it would be possible for one of the Ice Climbers to follow up with something other than a grab. However, if they try to perform the grab break and the second grab doesn't come it leaves them unable to DI for a few frames which would allow the Ice climbers to use one of their other chainthrows. Even if the opponent does end up escaping I wouldn't be surprised if using a blizzard or squall right after would lead to a guaranteed follow up grabs at low/mid %s.

There are going to be specific buffs made to the squall, blizzard, jab, and hopefully other moves as well that would allow for them to be better used in chaingrab links (some made harder to DI or give more stun). I'm trying to look into ways to put in new ways to desync that would make it easier to punish people and try to get throw out good grab set ups. Depending on the functionality of the move I have recently been considering testing out having the ice blocks force tripping and see if that has positive effects on their game (it should since it would have them a better chance at getting a grab in).

edit: Maybe one of the brawl+ Ice climbers players can tell me what stuff the Ice Climbers have gained from the brawl+ system changes. All I know of now few of their moves being a bit harder to DI because of the hitlag code which also acts as a double edge sword since Ice Climbers used to be able to capitalize on hitlag. Perhaps I am looking too much at the negative effects that Brawl+ has had on them. What new advantages do they have?

Brawl+ ic are probably the poorest designed char in the game =(. Most funniest thing is probably giving them the biggest double jump in the game cuz of their bad recovery XD. Thats just lazy design imo, but im pretty sure what you can actually do in the game is still very experimental. Big double jump also makes them feel really weird i hope that gets fixed right away or make them floaty like brawl. It makes no sense having a really low short hop and a rediculous full jump and double jump. The only advantage i see now is you can pretty much dthrow dash cg everyone in the game at low percents because of the hit stun. I know in regular brawl it only worked on certain characters.

 

[Gindler]

So....actual shield stun + Icy's ridiculously horrible grab range and people are thinking about removing the CG? It should really stay the same since now less moves are actually punishable with a grab

 

[Team Giza]

So....actual shield stun + Icy's ridiculously horrible grab range and people are thinking about removing the CG? It should really stay the same since now less moves are actually punishable with a grab

The issue is it gets in the way of adding buffs that actually fit into the IC's character type. But I don't know maybe some people just want to keep them the worst character in the game just to keep the infinite. I'm a bit disappointed by it since I have always liked the ice climbers and I don't want them to have to suck in brawl+. ;/ But it looks like all the IC mains want them to... so whatever.

 

[Sukai]

They should have SOME sort of grab game, keep a few of them, the lets find some touney results.
They should only be taken away if they actually harm the progression of their and other characters' metagame to the extent that they practically revolve around their infinites to win.

 

[Gindler]

They should have SOME sort of grab game, keep a few of them, the lets find some touney results.
They should only be taken away if they actually harm the progression of their and other characters' metagame to the extent that they practically revolve around their infinites to win.

Kirby's got an awesome grab game, so the ICs should be at least better than his. I guess maybe increase the knock-back on their throws so the timing is more tight or something, but yeah optional buffering, hmmmmmm.

 

[Sukai]

Kirby's got an awesome grab game, so the ICs should be at least better than his. I guess maybe increase the knock-back on their throws so the timing is more tight or something, but yeah optional buffering, hmmmmmm.

ah--ah--ah.
This is why we need to keep them and see what happens.
After we can come to a conclusion, then we make nerfs/buffs.

 

[meepxzero]

im all for taking infinites away if you buff the right things with ice climbers (Brawl + is a completely different game and should promote more fast pace action). Just slightly more range with bair and a bigger grab range. Fix their over b with single climber to be more like melee and your good to go. I honestly feel disgusted doing infinites in brawl + because it really shouldnt belong in it.

I feel so much stuff needs to be fixed with them it would take forever. Computer AI aka (nana) doesnt ever take into account shes falls faster now. So she suicides more often than usual. Full jumps make them floatier than regular brawl climbers. If you really want them viable at all in brawl+ without the infinites ud have to make them like melee climbers.

 

[KarateF22]

As it currently stands any alteration to their chaingrab is a massive nerf to the ice climbers. To compensate youd have to buff them in ways that would change their playstyle. I dont want to play a different character. I want to play the same character, with added options ... not a different character, with a completely different ones. Getting a grab in brawl+ is so hard anyways you SHOULD get ***** if you get grabbed.

And Team Giza, ice climbers are anything but sucky in brawl+. The new stun allows us to do some pretty vicious combos at low percents... sometimes comboing into a grab unless they DI just right. With momentum we can also run full speed, short hop, and do a blizzard flying forwards which can be hard to get around.

 

[Shell]

If you want to play the exact same character, play the exact same game.

If I were a vBrawl Ice Climber main I would approach it like this: This is a chance, a test. Nothing is ever completely set in stone with Brawl+. Instead of fearing change, give actual constructive advice on what we're doing (A d-tilt that pops people up for a grab attempt would be so useful, adjust the dair's KB to set-up grabs, etc.) and then give it a shot once we (mainly Giza, props) code it.

If you really don't like the new play style (which would still be grab-centric, just with more setups and options), then we won't force it on everyone.

 

[KarateF22]

I'm willing to test, however, if their grab game is weaker in any way or form (which, unless their grab 0-deaths, its weaker) i am almost certain to not like it. And besides, many times having it tested is a slippery slope. If tested, people will just leave it in because they spent time coding it. If this is not the case, i would be willing to see what is changed... as long as the people coding this stuff are completely willing to drop any changes if they arent liked by ice climber mains. If on the off chance we like the changes, well, then i guess you guys can say "i told you so". If not, the developers have to be willing to completely undo the changes.

 

[Shell]

Of course. We've dropped codes like they're hot in the past, even though our excellent coders spent a while on them (Sorry, guys =/).

Please try to consider these questions:

What moves would you like to see setting up a grab, and how?

What moves would you like to be able to use out of a grab? (Could be moves that lead back into another grab)

What additional tools would help them outside of their grab game?

 

[KarateF22]

....We can already set up grabs with multiple moves... most notably uair (at low percents), dual climbers squall, desynced solo climber squall and desynced solo climber blizzard. bair can also lead to a grab especially if they DI wrong but much less reliably.

There is nothing of value that we could use out of a grab that we cant already (keep in mind the other climber can do ANYTHING while someone is being held). We can spike, vertically kill, and horizontally kill. This is part of the reason why im reluctant to any changes... as you cant really improve their grab game... only nerf it. People typically only use one grab combo because it is simplest and most reliable but in all honesty there are probably over twenty grab comboes viable on multiple characaters. You cannot add much to it... except making footstool chaingrabbing viable again (techable footstool, meh).

If we make our shortest taunt desync the climbers (the side one) by making only nana taunt, or do something else, thatd be cool... but not really needed. Giving Nana superarmor during COOPERATIVE sideb would be useful, it is fairly stupid when she is hit by something minor but due to how the move works we both instantly stop.... nana doesnt go into helpless but if popo isnt hit he immediately goes helpless... dooming him. Alternatively, just make popo continue alone or vice-versa. Would also be nice if Popo had superarmor from the time Nana latched a ledge until he is pulled up so he doesnt get gimped so freaking easily. Would be nice if dair semi-spiked during its initial frames at like 30 degree downwards similar to how other stall then falls meteor spike during their initial frames.

Also, dont touch our dtilt. It is uber for gimping those with crap recoveries like falco and ganondorf. It semi-spikes basically dooming them both in the right circumstances.

I still think our grab game shouldnt be touched.

 

[Deleted member]

Giving Nana superarmor during COOPERATIVE sideb would be useful, it is fairly stupid when she is hit by something minor but due to how the move works we both instantly stop.... nana doesnt go into helpless but if popo isnt hit he immediately goes helpless... dooming him. Alternatively, just make popo continue alone or vice-versa.

How about changing the move so that neither one goes into helpless when they're hit? Might be easier to implement.
Also, while we're talking about Squall... Less button presses required for >B would be really, really nice.

Would also be nice if Popo had superarmor from the time Nana latched a ledge until he is pulled up so he doesnt get gimped so freaking easily.

Good idea-But, wouldn't it be a bit too much?

Some random ideas:
I also feel like ice should be more of a factor on IC matches, since, you know, they are called ICE Climbers.
Like:
Freezing moves always freeze at the percentage they would freeze, certainty>randomness.
Why the hell do enemies go so high when they freeze? It would be great if they just stayed where they are, so freezing actually worked in OUR favor.
Another thing, the time enemies remain frozen is too small, this+the way they go up when they unfreeze=useless freezing.
Also, Ice Blocks should start freezing at lower percents, their ability to freeze is useless right now.
Don't really expect to be taken seriously with this post. ;_;

 

[Super Mario MC]

I believe they should keep the cg. I would not be fair imo :/

 

[KarateF22]

How about changing the move so that neither one goes into helpless when they're hit? Might be easier to implement.
Also, while we're talking about Squall... Less button presses required for >B would be really, really nice.

Not really necessary, as even if nana becomes helpless she still responds to cooperative moves such as upb and sideb. however its not the same if popo goes helpless.

And i agree, chain grab should stay.... but, im also willing to simply see where this goes... as long as they are willing to revert it to the current system should the changes be undesirable. If not, then no changes. period.

 

[1048576]

How would you feel about giving Nana's upthrow godly knockback? This way the IC's keep thier grab game and the opponent doesn't have to sit there drinking Mountain Dew waiting for yor you to finish.

 

[KarateF22]

How would you feel about giving Nana's upthrow godly knockback? This way the IC's keep thier grab game and the opponent doesn't have to sit there drinking Mountain Dew waiting for yor you to finish.

I hope your joking... believe it or not the ice climber chain grab does take a lot of skill to 0-death with... and it honestly doesnt take that long. 15 seconds tops... if you start at 0% on one of the super fatties (snake, ROB, bowser). It typically starts more around 50% That would be rediculously overpowered... any ice climber can hand off to nana a single time.

 

[1048576]

That's true, but I thought we dodn't care so much about technical skill what with the auto-Lcancelling.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Eliminating arbitrary tech skill barriers and idiot proofing a Zero to Death CG are two completely different things, friend. xD

 

[FrozenHobo]

ok, i am willing to test out the changes and see if they do indeed make the ICs flow better. purely for testing purposes. once i have had a chance to play around with the new ICs i'll determine if i do, in fact, like the changes or if i feel they detract from the character.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

My friend Bnzaaa uses IC's in brawl and he dislikes the idea of it being in Brawl+

This is our talk
This game is suppost to be fun, IC's are boring and IC's can now combo, so a combo into a infinite CG isnt good. Brawl+ is all about combos, having the IC's infinite CG make them uber broken. Its like in melee with wobbling. Its not easier for the IC players to get off the grab due to combos. Why let IC's have an easy 0 to death which ruins the game?