Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[FrozenHobo]

could we get a buff on the IC's dsmash? it was **** back in melee and got nerfed to hell in brawl. if you want to nerf their grab game but buff some other stuff, make that one of the main points to change.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

What part of the dsmash needs buffing? Damage or knockback?

 

[FrozenHobo]

knockback mostly. it did slightly more damage in melee, but its really negligable.

 

[Gindler]

could we get a buff on the IC's dsmash? it was **** back in melee and got nerfed to hell in brawl.

Same with yoshi, they destroyed his old amazing Dsmash.........sadly.

anyway more on topic

In Brawl+ they'd be even more easily separated than in vbrawl. It only makes sense that if you get grabbed and they're both still together for some reason that you should lose a stock for making that mistake. Or maybe just a better kill move that way they don't struggle getting a kill.

 

[cutter]

My friend Bnzaaa uses IC's in brawl and he dislikes the idea of it being in Brawl+

This is our talk
This game is suppost to be fun, IC's are boring and IC's can now combo, so a combo into a infinite CG isnt good. Brawl+ is all about combos, having the IC's infinite CG make them uber broken. Its like in melee with wobbling. Its not easier for the IC players to get off the grab due to combos. Why let IC's have an easy 0 to death which ruins the game?

Except Wobbling did not break the game. Wobbling was FAR from a gamebreaking tactic.

 

[Team Giza]

This game is suppost to be fun, IC's are boring and IC's can now combo, so a combo into a infinite CG isnt good. Brawl+ is all about combos, having the IC's infinite CG make them uber broken. Its like in melee with wobbling. Its not easier for the IC players to get off the grab due to combos. Why let IC's have an easy 0 to death which ruins the game?

The combos into grabs are harder to pull off than you might think. Ice Climbers are very easy to approach now and much easier to separate. Ice Climbers are worse off then they were in vBrawl.

could we get a buff on the IC's dsmash? it was **** back in melee and got nerfed to hell in brawl. if you want to nerf their grab game but buff some other stuff, make that one of the main points to change.

Its already been planned that if we remove the infinite that there smashes would be buffed. Downsmash would probably have its angle sent lower making it better for gimping, a bit of a knockback increase would be good too. I am not completely sure what to do with it. If you have any buffing requests for their moves, PM me and I can look into doing it.

 

[KarateF22]

They shouldnt have their infinite to remove for multiple reasons.... its very easy to screw up at maximum speed, and if you go any slower its surprisingly easy to break out until 70-80%... However, as I have said, i will test the changes and then judge... but that does not mean i wont express my opinion.

And the current chaingrab system is much less broken than wobbling... wobbling required only one technique practiced to mastery... once you had it down you couldnt **** it up... it didnt even require hitting different buttons at the right time... just mashing A once the rhythm is right, or if your more technical, pressing it at perfect rhythm. Both methods worked fairly well and guaranteed death. The current chaingrab doesnt as there are many ways for it to screw up. Also, you could NEVER wiggle out in wobbling once initiated.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ok, did some trials in B+. here is my list of changes i'd like to see in ICs:

Ice blocks do 6-7 damage and start freezing between 150-200%
Longer invincibility frames when getting up from the ledge (ledge attack)
up b has more knock back
uair has more knock back
squall has a larger re-sync range when using it (nana joins in at a slightly larger distance)
squall has less end lag/knock back during the main squall. same knock back with last hit
blizzard starts freezing around 120% (not sure what the current % is for freezing to start but lower than before)
ice blocks/blizzard always freeze at higher percents
opponents don't get sent flying as far when they get frozen
dsmash has lower trajectory/high damage/more knock back
popo (main IC) spike
lower short hop*


additionally i know that AI is a difficult thing to fix, but if its at all possible to make nana aware of her knew weight that would be greatly help the ICs. as they stand now nana desyncs/re-syncs pretty easily so thats not too big of a problem (at least as far as i could tell).

*i know some people may not like this, but they do have a very ground based game and the closer they stay to the ground the better they play.

 

[KarateF22]

I agree with most of what you say FrozenPopo, except for a couple things...

1. Popo shouldnt spike... Nana spiking is why she is important. Well, that and the chaingrab infinite. and damage. and recovery. but all those are "co-op" things. We dont want to steal the only thunder Nana has completely to herself. would be nice if sweetspotted dair (aka hit in first couple frames of dair) semi-spiked like 20-30 degrees downwards.
2. Uair doesnt need more knockback. It needs more knockback growth. Giving it more knockback would harm its comboability at low percents... however increasing knockback growth while SLIGHTLY decreasing base knockback would make it combo a little better at low percents and kill a little better at high percents.

Also... while i certainly wouldnt mind it... i think the dsmash changes are a bit overkill. I mean it IS the second most powerful downsmash in the game sweetspotted (40% damage if they are on top of the iceclimbers because hitstun holds them in place for both hits, otherwise 20%). Its not really meant for killing either... its a damage racker. So maybe a slight damage increase... but knockback is fine.

 

[FrozenHobo]

I agree with most of what you say FrozenPopo, except for a couple things...

1. Popo shouldnt spike... Nana spiking is why she is important. Well, that and the chaingrab infinite. and damage. and recovery. but all those are "co-op" things. We dont want to steal the only thunder Nana has completely to herself. would be nice if sweetspotted dair (aka hit in first couple frames of dair) semi-spiked like 20-30 degrees downwards.
2. Uair doesnt need more knockback. It needs more knockback growth. Giving it more knockback would harm its comboability at low percents... however increasing knockback growth while SLIGHTLY decreasing base knockback would make it combo a little better at low percents and kill a little better at high percents.

Also... while i certainly wouldnt mind it... i think the dsmash changes are a bit overkill. I mean it IS the second most powerful downsmash in the game sweetspotted (40% damage if they are on top of the iceclimbers because hitstun holds them in place for both hits, otherwise 20%). Its not really meant for killing either... its a damage racker. So maybe a slight damage increase... but knockback is fine.

ok on the popo without spike and the upair, but dsmash at least needs a modification to its trajectory/slight increase in knockback. it takes longer for the smash to come out oos so it should at least have an extra kick to it (maybe just not an increase in the damage dealt).

 

[KarateF22]

Like i said, i wouldnt mind it... im just concerned it may be overkill. we shall see. I dont think dsmash should have modified trajectory though. What do you think of the dair semi-spike when sweetspotted?

 

[ZOM~B]

FP on guest account

well the ICs have a very ground based game which is why i'm thinking of boosting their ground moves. having dair semi-spike would be pretty neat too, but it may encourage risky behavior which usually ends up with either you or nana dieing.

 

[FrozenHobo]

also, what do you think about making sopo's squall recovery easier to get horizontal distance with?

i.e. less b taps or less frequency of taps to stay in the air.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

*Checks Ice Climbers short-hop*

Isn't that low enough. o_o

 

[FrozenHobo]

i can still see it going a little lower.

short hop -> bair wall = ****

 

[Deleted member]

How about changing d-smash so that each part leads to the next better, like melee peach's?

 

[FrozenHobo]

that might work.... i still thing a trajectory change would be good for the final hit.

 

[KarateF22]

I dont think the trajectory should change... i mean at low percents it can actually setup for a grab... altering trajectory might feck that up. I think it should be left alone.

 

[FrozenHobo]

well i'm looking at it as setting up for more than a grab. i like the idea of it pulling the person in for multiple hits, but having a lower trajectory makes it send them closer to the ground which both sets up for grabs as well as other combos. as it is now it sends them upwards. thats not ideal for grabbing anyway.

 

[Team Giza]

Just came here wondering how people feel about the blizzard not freezing until higher %s and having its knockback trajectory changed. It would be changed in a way that if the opponent doesnt DI it would very slightly pull the opponent towards the ICs. Bad idea?

 

[FrozenHobo]

Just came here wondering how people feel about the blizzard not freezing until higher %s and having its knockback trajectory changed. It would be changed in a way that if the opponent doesnt DI it would very slightly pull the opponent towards the ICs. Bad idea?

i like that idea.

 

[Deleted member]

Just came here wondering how people feel about the blizzard not freezing until higher %s and having its knockback trajectory changed. It would be changed in a way that if the opponent doesnt DI it would very slightly pull the opponent towards the ICs. Bad idea?

As long as cooldown lag on Blizzard is decreased, because I feel a double Blizzard would be kinda punishable.
On the other hand, it might set up for grabs and on higher percents maybe even for Belays, lol, imagine this:
SoNa Blizzard>Enemy DIs wrong>Gets in front of the IC>Freezes>Skyrockets up>SoPo Jump>Belay.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ok, so here's the list of requested buffs thus far:


Ice blocks do 6-7 damage and start freezing between 150-200%
Longer invincibility frames when getting up from the ledge (ledge attack)
up b has more knock back
uair has more knock back
squall has a larger re-sync range when using it (nana joins in at a slightly larger distance)
squall has less end lag/knock back during the main squall. same knock back with last hit
blizzard starts freezing around 120% (not sure what the current % is for freezing to start but lower than before)
blizzard pulls opponents in slightly
blizzard has less end lag
ice blocks/blizzard always freeze at higher percents
opponents don't get sent flying as far when they get frozen
dsmash has lower trajectory/pulls opponents in for all 4 hits
popo (main IC) spike
dair semi-spike if sweetspotted

 

[Crow!]

ICs don't dominate normal Brawl. Yes, they're annoying to fight against because synced grab = death, but that's the only thing they have. Since normal combos are stronger in Brawl+, and ICs don't have too many tools to make use of that fact themselves, ICs should become even less powerful in Brawl+.

If for some reason another feature of Brawl+ is making the cg more effective for some reason that isn't obvious to me, then we could reevaluate. As it is, taking it out would kill the ICs entirely, and thereby defy one of the core tenents of Brawl+, rebalancing the game.

 

[Deleted member]

ok, so here's the list of requested buffs thus far:


Ice blocks do 6-7 damage and start freezing between 150-200%
Longer invincibility frames when getting up from the ledge (ledge attack)
up b has more knock back
uair has more knock back growth
squall has a larger re-sync range when using it (nana joins in at a slightly larger distance)
squall has less end lag/knock back during the main squall. same knock back with last hit
blizzard starts freezing around 120% (not sure what the current % is for freezing to start but lower than before)
blizzard pulls opponents in slightly
blizzard has less end lag
ice blocks/blizzard always freeze at higher percents
opponents don't get sent flying as far when they get frozen
dsmash has lower trajectory/pulls opponents in for all 4 hits
popo (main IC) spike
dair semi-spike if sweetspotted

More knockback growth on uair would be better, IMO, because you can still juggle with it at lower percents but it'd kill better at higher percents, not that I think uair needs a buff.

How about Squall Hammer and Belay resynch even if nana is on a ledge?

 

[Ojanya]

Ugh, for the last time people, they could chain grab like this in Melee, and STILL weren't broken. Want to know your counter? Don't get grabbed.

How could 20 percent of you want it taken out? Sounds like losing johns to me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

More knockback growth on uair would be better, IMO, because you can still juggle with it at lower percents but it'd kill better at higher percents, not that I think uair needs a buff.

How about Squall Hammer and Belay resynch even if nana is on a ledge?

uair growth would be fine. resyncing even when nana is on the ledge would be really nice. it might make them a little too broken, but as far as testing goes i'd like to see how well it could be implimented into the next release of B+. could actually make them able to survive gimps really well.

 

[KarateF22]

er... we agreed popo wouldnt get a meteor, only nana. also... i still dont want dsmash to have altered trajectory. And tbh, uair should do the same damage, at 0-50% do slightly less knockback for better combos, at 50% same knockback as current 50%, and above 50% do more knockback than it does now. or something like that. Can the upwards boost of squall be boosted by like 1.5x? for both SoPo and co-op? or at the very least sopo

@Team Giza... that would be fine if the final hit of blizzard had some sort of hitstun on the opponent just barely less than the time of blizzard cooldown. or reduce blizzard cooldown.

 

[FrozenHobo]

er... we agreed popo wouldnt get a meteor, only nana. also... i still dont want dsmash to have altered trajectory. And tbh, uair should do the same damage, at 0-50% do slightly less knockback for better combos, at 50% same knockback as current 50%, and above 50% do more knockback than it does now. or something like that.

i can tell we'll be arguing about dsmash for a while....

as far as uair goes, you sort of described what increased knockback growth is....

 

[KarateF22]

i can tell we'll be arguing about dsmash for a while....

as far as uair goes, you sort of described what increased knockback growth is....

Simply increasing knockback growth is different than decreasing BKB and increasing KBG. reducing BKB while increasing KBG makes it an even better combo AND kill move at the SAME TIME.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Simply increasing knockback growth is different than decreasing BKB and increasing KBG. reducing BKB while increasing KBG makes it an even better combo AND kill move at the SAME TIME.

i don't know what BKB and KBG mean.

 

[KarateF22]

base knockback (knockback at 0%) and knockback growth (increased knockback as opponents percent goes up) respectively. WE should be in the ice climbers chatroom lol.

 

[GuruKid]

Even in regular Brawl, IC's were nowhere near overpowered simply because their grab game is all they have.

I'd vote to keep it in B+, maybe make it SLIGHTLY easier to escape (but not too easy); even though things have changed in B+, and I haven't really seen IC's in action, I would believe their approaching/aerial. ground game still isn't nowhere near on par with the rest of the cast.

 

[meepxzero]

hmm was thinking.... Why dont you keep the infinites, but like ban the use of the tactic or limit the amount of alt grabs one can do (if they do ever limit them leave it to 5 at the most). That way it wont be an easy win for ic if they do land a grab and it wont hurt their metagame that badly. It just seems a lot easier if brawl + tournies ban the use if they are overly powered (most likely not going to be).

Theres like no reason to completely take it out plus people who actually play ic and friendliy with them that are really good dont even like cging people to death because they could do that at home with a lvl 9 computer. Or at least i do <_<.

 

[Finns7]

I dont think you guys understand we can give them better options while removing the infinite which doesnt look good. You may say it was in melee but that doesnt matter this is brawl+. We removed other things that werent broken but just didnt look right for the game.

There is a chance IC mains from vbrawl are too used to the old system, but if we can make a style not centered on INFINITES (diable cg's are fine) and make it easy to pickup then it could work.

 

[KarateF22]

what meep said.... i typically cant keep up a chaingrab anyways... the only time ill use them to fully 0 death is tournies... and at tournies i almost never land the grab. see the pattern here? and 5 alt grabs.... haha... thats basically all i freaking need so id be good with that (in case you wondering, it takes about that many to get to the ledge for the spike :-P)

 

[FrozenHobo]

There is a chance IC mains from vbrawl are too used to the old system, but if we can make a style not centered on INFINITES (diable cg's are fine) and make it easy to pickup then it could work.

specifically which CGs are you talking about? alt grabs aren't DIable and neither is hobbling if its done right. hell dthrow with both ICs isn't even DIable. the only CG i can think that your logic allows to remain is the sopo dthrow chain, and people are now calling for that to be taken away too.

 

[CloneHat]

specifically which CGs are you talking about? alt grabs aren't DIable and neither is hobbling if its done right. hell dthrow with both ICs isn't even DIable. the only CG i can think that your logic allows to remain is the sopo dthrow chain, and people are now calling for that to be taken away too.

Dthrow with one IC is fine IMO!

It's a chaingrab that ENDS. That's what we want.

 

[Team Giza]

Most of the people who are talking about removing that one just are saying that it would be a good thing to get rid of if the infinite stays.

 

[storm92]

I've changed my mind here and agreed that I want the chains removed.
Popo individual Dthrow CG is okay, but everything else...ugh.