Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[cutter]

The only reason the Ice Climbers are as good as they are in vBrawl are because of their infinites. Their ENTIRE GAME revolves around connecting a grab on the opponent.

If you take the infinites out of the game, or even nerf them to the point of being weak, you just killed ICs. The one thing they had over other characters was the power to 0-death and without that power they are a really weak character that gets stomped against other high/top tier characters.

Plus, what types of chaingrabs are you going to take out of the game? You have alt grabs, variations on alt grabs, hobbling, and endless combinations between alts and hobbling. This is why it's pretty much impossible to enforce a ban on the chaingrabs.

Also keep in mind that in Brawl+, there is less lag on aerials, more shieldstun, and more hitstun. This makes it HARDER to connect with a grab, not easier. Why take something out of the game that was never even remotely broken in vBrawl to begin with?

If you guys do plan on taking out the chaingrabs, be prepared to rebuild an entire character from scratch.

 

[Shell]

Many of us have already said that we're more than ready to do exactly that.

 

[Plum]

If you guys do plan on taking out the chaingrabs, be prepared to rebuild an entire character from scratch.

I know everybody for it is just going to say that "we aren't taking them out, just modifying them so they are fair blah blah blah johns about not liking the infinites"

But let's be honest.

Who in their right mind would play this newly designed Ice Climbers?

If I'm an IC main in vBrawl I certainly won't want to. All my hard work is null and void so what is the point in me playing this new "better" version? Sure, you can still give them a good grab game but why would I want to just relearn how to play a character that I have already put so much time into to learn the infinites?

Let's say I'm new and looking for a main; better yet let's try Brawl+.
Should I go with the IC's? No I really wouldn't... They still have all the same flaws as they did in vBrawl regarding their grab game and the rewards for it aren't nearly as good. If I still need Nana alive, right next to me, still have a horrid grab range, not to mention the up in difficulty in landing a grab in Brawl+ with the IC's it just wouldn't be worth the effort.

Let's say I'm a Brawl+ player already.
Why should I go and pick up another character when I already have an established main that I have put time and effort into honing just to start over with a brand new character? I know I wouldn't give up maining Mario in Brawl+ for the IC's. (Well I wouldn't give Mario up with or without infinites... but without them they would have zero appeal to me.) Why should I bother with an inherently flawed character (some flaws that cannot be fixed such as Nana's AI, random desynchs as you try to recover, the fact that you need Nana to use an overwhelming amount of the character's metagame, the fact that Nana is easy to separate and combo to death with her lack of proper DI or really anything...) when I already have a perfectly great combo character with superb gimping abilities?

No. "Wait to decide" means neutral so it would be:

Action 162
No action 94

Well then you might want to change the wording of that one too. Saying "I want to wait until tourney results prove/disprove anything" is still saying that I'm going to keep the infinites in the game even if it is only for now.

 

[Teronist09]

Well if you want to play the IC like you did in vBrawl, go play vBrawl. Plenty of the chars don't play the same as their vbrawl counterparts anymore. Just because you only liked them for the infinite doesn't mean other people won't find something they like about them that has nothign to do with them. -_-

 

[Shell]

"Who would play a new IC?"

Not everyone overcame or wants to overcome the activation energy of memory-grinding infinites on all of the different characters. Frankly, to many people considering picking them up this really limits their accessibility, something that we strive for in Brawl+.

However, removing the infinite but giving the player more options and set-ups =/= dumbing them down. It's about making them more playable initially, but ultimately deepening their options in the hands of a master.

And as I said, people need to stop arguing against taking it away "because it's the only thing they have." We've shown that we know what we're doing so far, I think we have what it takes to polish these guys and give them a deeper, more interesting game.

 

[Team Giza]

The one thing they had over other characters was the power to 0-death and without that power they are a really weak character that gets stomped against other high/top tier characters.

Once again the vast majority of people who want to remove the infinite don't want to kill their chainthrowing game. They want to give them new chainthrows that aren't real infinites.

Plus, what types of chaingrabs are you going to take out of the game? You have alt grabs, variations on alt grabs, hobbling, and endless combinations between alts and hobbling. This is why it's pretty much impossible to enforce a ban on the chaingrabs.

Remove all the the forms of hobbling that don't give you any chance to DI. Make it so alt grabs can be broken out of in certain but would lead into something besides a grab still, and the breaking method would screw up your ability to DI the newly added chainthrows.

Also keep in mind that in Brawl+, there is less lag on aerials, more shieldstun, and more hitstun. This makes it HARDER to connect with a grab, not easier. Why take something out of the game that was never even remotely broken in vBrawl to begin with?

Thats not the issue. I understand the Ice Climbers are among the worst characters in brawl+. The infinite is not enough to save them. Just because the characters themselves are not broken does not mean that infinite is a good way to try to keep them balanced. They can still be given more complex chainthrows and still use the functions of the infinite but we would just make them escapable in someway.

If you guys do plan on taking out the chaingrabs, be prepared to rebuild an entire character from scratch.

I am. New chainthrows are going to need to be added. Lots of moves need to be tweaked. New methods for desync need to be added as well.

If I'm an IC main in vBrawl I certainly won't want to. All my hard work is null and void so what is the point in me playing this new "better" version? Sure, you can still give them a good grab game but why would I want to just relearn how to play a character that I have already put so much time into to learn the infinites?

It wouldn't all go to waste. Many aspects of them would still be the same you would just have a few new things you need to learn (which you already have to do with all Brawl+ characters). Did you read about how I think the infinite should be 'removed'? It would still allow for the hard work those people put in to learn the ICs to mean something in Brawl+.

 

[Deleted member]

No. "Wait to decide" means neutral so it would be:

Action 162
No action 94

Hardly, there is no neutral in a yes or no question,
the question is:

"How should the Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab be handled in Brawl+?"
["Should the infinites be removed?"]

"Remove the chaingrab entirely" [Yes]
"Weaken the grab without removing it - perhaps by making it escapable or harder to initiate" [Yes]
"Keep the chaingrab in the game" [No]
"Wait for now, and bring this issue up again once tournament results become available [No (for now at least)]

Not that it matters, since we can't control who voted, for all we know most of those people haven't played Brawl.

 

[KarateF22]

Ok, this is getting rediculous. Most people dont fully realize the impact of removing or altering the chaingrab... think for a second... how easy would the climbers be to defeat if you did not have to fear running into a shield or making a laggy mistake? seriously? THINK ABOUT IT, you could eat a single attack every now and hurt them so much more often, split them so much easier. Also keep in mind this is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY in which players are WELL AWARE on how to play ice climbers and avoid their grab... often never getting grabbed or if they do, getting out before nana can get her slow *** over to assist. Not to mention, who wants the basis of their character changed? What if we took away captain falcon's knee, but buffed other stuff? he wouldnt be falcon... he would be another character. If we took away marth's tipping, but gave him a better non-tip attack... he wouldnt be marth. Or hey, lets remove jigglypuffs third and beyond jumps... she doesnt need them to be viable, does she. Lets just buff everything else (sarcasm off).

Seriously guys, keep in mind that just because you got 0-deathed once, doesn't mean it can be done on a regular basis... especially on higher level play. Low or mid level play is not an accurate representation of their grab game. Brawl+ is designed for high level play with deadly combos (speaking of which, marth can just about 0-death many characters by doing utilt utilt nair fair fair dair, or variations of this, why is noone screaming nerf on that?). Their grab game is what makes them unique. It gives them a special attribute noone else has taking away would ruin them. THEY WOULD NOT BE THE ICE CLIMBERS ANYMORE! Seriously, please leave the unique aspects of characters alone unless they are truly competitively broken (which it is not). If they took away their grab game, or nerfed it, whatever... i would drop climbers for brawl+ as many other characters can do what they can do (except better) without the chain grab. Homogenizing characters is not the way to go.

 

[Problem2]

can I take my vote back? I want to vote for keeping IC's infinite in after reading karateF22's post.

 

[KarateF22]

can I take my vote back? I want to vote for keeping IC's infinite in after reading karateF22's post.

dude, you rock. seriously. that small post made my day just now... knowing i had some sort of impact.

 

[GHNeko]

Ice Climbers == Chain Grabs + Desyncs.

Ice Climbers != Infinites.

Infinites != Chain Grabs.

Taking away infinites, but leaving in escapable chain grabs, buffing their grab game and desync games does not make ICs NOT ICs. Characters are not just one thing. Falcon is not just knee. Marth is just not Tippers, etc etc.

This poll needs to be closed and re done with better choices that dont mislead.

 

[KarateF22]

Ice Climbers == Chain Grabs + Desyncs.

Ice Climbers != Infinites.

Infinites != Chain Grabs.

Taking away infinites, but leaving in escapable chain grabs, buffing their grab game and desync games does not make ICs NOT ICs. Characters are not just one thing. Falcon is not just knee. Marth is just not Tippers, etc etc.

This poll needs to be closed and re done with better choices that dont mislead.

LOL @ FAILPOST

Im aware that a chaingrab isnt necessarily an infinite. However, im saying that i dont want it modified AT ALL. I dont want the core aspect of my character touched. It. Is. Fine. As. Is. If the grab game is changed, i drop climbers. Thats not a threat, simply a fact. Losing or having something that ive come to admire the climbers altered is simply too much; i would say "**** it" and focus on my other characters.

Why do you insist on changing characters when those that play the characters the most dont want it changed?

Just to point out, Captain falcon sucks at killing without his knee (or at least has a much harder time) and marth loses his OMGWTFJUSTHAPPENED fsmash and dair spike... both being vital to his game. He also loses his 2 in 1 attacks where an attack can be used for two purposes, like his fair can kill and combo depending on placement of the hitbox. This essentially changes their entire game. People are trying to do the same to ice climbers by altering stuff which doesnt need to be altered.

 

[GHNeko]

LOL @ FAILPOST

lol @ opinion.

Im aware that a chaingrab isnt necessarily an infinite. However, im saying that i dont want it modified AT ALL. I dont want the core aspect of my character touched. It. Is. Fine. As. Is. If the grab game is changed, i drop climbers. Thats not a threat, simply a fact. Losing or having something that ive come to admire the climbers altered is simply too much; i would say "**** it" and focus on my other characters.

I thought the core aspect was chain grabbing. Not just the infinite. <_>

And if you drop the climbers, Ill be sure to be there to play the world's smallest violin. :/

Why do you insist on changing characters when those that play the characters the most dont want it changed?

Did I say that? No. I didnt. For your information, I voted on the last option. I'm just pointing out that the Infinite of ICs is NOT all they have, and The infinite is not the only CG they are capable of. ICs are NOT just infinites.

lol @ u

Just to point out, Captain falcon sucks at killing without his knee (or at least has a much harder time)

LOL. Dair, Smash Attacks, and Falcon Punch like to have a word with you.

and marth loses his OMGWTFJUSTHAPPENED fsmash and dair spike... both being vital to his game.

Dancing Blade and Fair would like to have a word with you. So would Up B. Dair spike is not extremly vital to his game either.

He also loses his 2 in 1 attacks where an attack can be used for two purposes, like his fair can kill and combo depending on placement of the hitbox. This essentially changes their entire game. People are trying to do the same to ice climbers by altering stuff which doesnt need to be altered.

That still doesnt mean Marth is all about tippers. He is more than that. He is more than tippers. That's what I said.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

here are the problems with infinites

-matches with ice climbers are boring to watch and always will be. matches are reduced to poking matches because 2 good players won't let up their offense/defense.
-they are banned from some tournaments, i don't know how many.. but they are banned. and apparently chudat himself said that he wouldn't host anymore brawl+ tournaments if crap like infinites were still in the game. if the infinites are such huge part of their game, this must be a real kicker for you. because brawl+ is aimed towards a tourney scene, one of the goals is to try to remove any artificial banning of tactics that a judge needs to deal with so that we don't have dumb rules like a limited amount of ledge grabs, or "no infinite cape glitch" (which isn't gone yet ).
-the infinite chain grab is holding them back. people argue that it's even HARDER to land a grab on someone since theres less aerial lag, shieldstun and the game is faster. if their infinite chain grab is so integral to their metagame and they didn't gain much from brawl+ as people say and getting away from it is so easy, so situational, and so hard to set up how exactly are they going to cope with brawl+? every other character in brawl+ has evolved passed what they had in regular brawl (except for the high tiers), and ice climbers are going to be stuck doing the same thing .. but worse (not to mention the loss of jab lock combos and footstool combos). we can't even buff them because of the 'balance' between their infinite and their current tools. do you want them to stay mediocre?

so really. it's up to you guys. if you're ok with your metagame being banned from some tournaments, your characters giving up new tactics and tools for an extremely difficult to pull-off infinite and the viewing of your matches being passed up for match with a bit more.. action, that's fine with me. i personally don't like them, and don't really care. i just want to see every character enjoyable to watch, enjoyable to play against, and stand a chance against everyone.

 

[CyberGlitch]

We should keep the glitch where grabbing Snake during his Up B causes him to lose his recovery. He needs the nerf, without it he's overpowered.

^Not the best example, but this is just a twist of the same reasoning I seem to repeatedly see when people here advocate the infinite CGs.

The same poor reasoning was used to advocate keeping Bowser's grab release chains. Guys, exploits that remove control from the other player are not what we want to see in Brawl. We managed to make Bowser into a really cool character, I am having far more fun with him now than I ever did with the release chains, and I have little doubt we can do it for the ice climbers. I'm especially curious on how we can use to ice elemental property to make certain moves of theirs unique and effective.

 

[James177]

We should buff their aerial mobility and things like that, and remove the CG :\

 

[KarateF22]

We should buff their aerial mobility and things like that, and remove the CG :\

Why? If you want something removed you need evidence...

And Jiang... its not my fault if you get "bored" because you ****ed up and jumped into the ****, thus getting grabbed. Stop *****ing about the chain grab unless its game breaking. Changing it is not good for the climbers, leave it be. MAtter of fact, seeing as they are currently one of the worst characters, why are we considering nerfing them? They need a buff while leaving their chain grab aspect alone! The value of the infinite chaingrab is not just the grab itself but the sheer fear of getting 0-deathed if you do something stupid. That is what makes the ice climbers unique and cool character.

Oh and since you are so convinced that the chain grab is an infinite, i dare you to try to chain grab someone to 999%. Its nearly impossible. Sure its THEORETICALLY possible but ****, ive never taken a CPU above 300% and that was just to see if i could. People are not capable of flawlessly grabbing within 2-3 frames at the higher percents. People dont realize that knockback speed effects ease of grab so it becomes very close to impossible to chaingrab at uber high percents. Stop assuming that its a stalling technique. And before someone says hobbling, no, that doesnt work either. Above 200% it randomly freezes and sends away the opponent so you cannot regrab them.

Please read my post on page 14 if you have not.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I'm really going to have to agree with Karate.

IC's infinites aren't even really a problem in high levels of play of REGULAR Brawl. Every character knows that match-up as, "Don't get grabbed," and it's actually pretty easy; they have the shortest grab range and can't perform any infinite unless Nana and Popo are in the same place. Keeping Nana away from Popo and not using laggy, punishable attacks is a very good and effective strategy against the ICs.

And in Brawl+ where there's less aerial lag and sheildstun, it's even harder to grab people.

Their infinite isn't gamebreaking, and there's no reason to remove it simply because you don't like it (especially if IC mainers want you to keep it in). At the very least, just wait and see what happens when you let the ICs keep their infinite, and if it is overly-problematic, you can change things then.

 

[KarateF22]

I'm really going to have to agree with Karate.

IC's infinites aren't even really a problem in high levels of play of REGULAR Brawl. Every character knows that match-up as, "Don't get grabbed," and it's actually pretty easy; they have the shortest grab range and can't perform any infinite unless Nana and Popo are in the same place. Keeping Nana away from Popo and not using laggy, punishable attacks is a very good and effective strategy against the ICs.

And in Brawl+ where there's less aerial lag and sheildstun, it's even harder to grab people.

Their infinite isn't gamebreaking, and there's no reason to remove it simply because you don't like it (especially if IC mainers want you to keep it in). At the very least, just wait and see what happens when you let the ICs keep their infinite, and if it is overly-problematic, you can change things then.

*high-fives avarice*

Thanks for the support

 

[GHNeko]

...and there's no reason to remove it [...]

lolwut. There are legitamate reasons to remove the INFINITE (NOT CHAINGRABS)

...especially if IC mainers want you to keep it in[...]

How many ICs have actually come into this topic and mentioned something? Just asking.

 

[Team Giza]

Seriously guys, keep in mind that just because you got 0-deathed once, doesn't mean it can be done on a regular basis... especially on higher level play. Low or mid level play is not an accurate representation of their grab game. Brawl+ is designed for high level play with deadly combos (speaking of which, marth can just about 0-death many characters by doing utilt utilt nair fair fair dair, or variations of this, why is noone screaming nerf on that?). Their grab game is what makes them unique. It gives them a special attribute noone else has taking away would ruin them. THEY WOULD NOT BE THE ICE CLIMBERS ANYMORE!

Once again we aren't talking about removing their ability to 0 to death people with chainthrows. I want those in too. We are just discussing whether or not the infinite should be removed (such as changed so it can only go up to a certain point). Ice Climbers should have death grabs but they should not be true infinites.

The ice climbers even with the infinite are one of the worst characters in Brawl+. They need to be buffed in other way which I hoped could focus in on making grabs for them easier. But since the grab leads to a true infinite that seems kinda wrong. But without doing it I cannot think of a way of making a character that seems to have a solid gameplan out of them. So basically for me its either the infinite is removed or I'm against pretty much all buffs we can give them.

I don't know how you feel about the grab break solution I gave pretty early on in this topic, just by the way I think should be applied to every grab in the game, so I would like to hear your opinion on that. Keep in mind that if that is added we would be giving Ice Climbers a bunch of new chaingrabs that the grab break would throw off DI for.

 

[Rkey]

lolwut. There are legitamate reasons to remove the INFINITE (NOT CHAINGRABS)


How many ICs have actually come into this topic and mentioned something? Just asking.

KarateF22 has, and he cclearly stated his opinion.

Moreover, since I talked to him, he's not a staller and said one thing: If we take away nana's ability to grab when opponent reachs 160-170% or so, it's not an infinite anymore, and IC's will still be IC's, and he hasn't got a problem with that.

 

[KarateF22]

KarateF22 has, and he cclearly stated his opinion.

Moreover, since I talked to him, he's not a staller and said one thing: If we take away nana's ability to grab when opponent reachs 160-170% or so, it's not an infinite anymore, and IC's will still be IC's, and he hasn't got a problem with that.

And more importantly, they can still kill out of a chaingrab.

 

[Team Giza]

Moreover, since I talked to him, he's not a staller and said one thing: If we take away nana's ability to grab when opponent reachs 160-170% or so, it's not an infinite anymore, and IC's will still be IC's, and he hasn't got a problem with that.

I'm not okay with such a sudden break out point. I would like for there to be good reasons for having to mix up the chainthrows to keep it going and have it become slowly easier to escape.

Beyond that, I would like to buff the Ice Climber's knockback growth on their smash moves so that they can get KOs a bit quicker. Which would also mean the chainthrows would not have to go on as long as they do currently.

 

[CountKaiser]

But the opponent still can't do anything about getting Chain grabbed to death in the infinite. Yes, it won't go on for infinity anymore, but the main problem is still there.

I don't mind a 0-Death cg as long as the opponent has a chance of getting out of it.

 

[Rkey]

I'm not okay with such a sudden break out point. I would like for there to be good reasons for having to mix up the chainthrows to keep it going and have it become slowly easier to escape.

Beyond that, I would like to buff the Ice Climber's knockback growth on their smash moves so that they can get KOs a bit quicker. Which would also mean the chainthrows would not have to go on as long as they do currently.

This argument I believe has now turned to a different question than it had from the beginning. Instead from arguing about the IC's grab game, the question is now:

"How can we make IC's unable to proceed alternating grabs past the killing percentages?"

Am I correct on this statement?

Edit:

But the opponent still can't do anything about getting Chain grabbed to death in the infinite. Yes, it won't go on for infinity anymore, but the main problem is still there.

I don't mind a 0-Death cg as long as the opponent has a chance of getting out of it.

Don't get grabbed, that's your chance of getting out of it. Pick a characters like wario or jiggz and you're good to go. The increased shieldstund of b+ makes IC's having a REALLY hard time grabbing characters like these.

 

[1048576]

We should keep the glitch where grabbing Snake during his Up B causes him to lose his recovery. He needs the nerf, without it he's overpowered.

^Not the best example, but this is just a twist of the same reasoning I seem to repeatedly see when people here advocate the infinite CGs.

The same poor reasoning was used to advocate keeping Bowser's grab release chains. Guys, exploits that remove control from the other player are not what we want to see in Brawl. We managed to make Bowser into a really cool character, I am having far more fun with him now than I ever did with the release chains, and I have little doubt we can do it for the ice climbers. I'm especially curious on how we can use to ice elemental property to make certain moves of theirs unique and effective.

You mean combos?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

You mean combos?

oh god you look like a total noob now

 

[Team Giza]

This argument I believe has now turned to a different question than it had from the beginning. Instead from arguing about the IC's grab game, the question is now:

"How can we make IC's unable to proceed alternating grabs past the killing percentages?"

Am I correct on this statement?

No. Because I think alternating grabs should be able to be broken at any percentage, but can still lead to a follow up that isn't a grab (directly). I plan on giving them more chainthrows to use so that they have to mix them up to keep people stuck but they would still be pretty hard to escape from regardless until very high %s.

You mean combos?

Combos allow the player to DI which means they have control. Plus unlike combos, the alt grabs can continue forever.

 

[Rkey]

TeamGiza, you're making me feel very secure. I'm going to leave this discussion now because i feel you're going to make everything turn out just right ; )

 

[GHNeko]

You mean combos?

Come on now...

...Really?

DI would like to have a word with you.

 

[KarateF22]

DI only effects it so much. Some combos are truly inescapable... and with tiny hitstun thats in effect now smash di is impossible to do without prediction. It cannot be done with reflexes on purpose.

BTW GHNeko i like your sig.

 

[Dark Sonic]

DI only effects it so much. Some combos are truly inescapable... and with tiny hitlag thats in effect now smash di is impossible to do without prediction. It cannot be done with reflexes on purpose.

BTW GHNeko i like your sig.

Hitlag not hitstun.

And....yeah that's the point! SDI and even normal DI aren't supposed to be done on reaction, they're supposed to be done on prediction.

And inescapable combos...are typically small combos. 3, maybe 5 hits at max. Look at any combo with more hits than that (that doesn't involve some kind of loop like an uptilt lock or chaingrab) and you will find several points where it wouldn't have worked if the person getting combo'd did something differently (tech rolled out of reach, DI'd certain hits in various directions, ect, ect)

 

[1048576]

Come on now...

...Really?

DI would like to have a word with you.

You are aware that some combos work even with proper DI, right? In fact, if a combo doesn't work with proper DI, it probably isn't going to be very usable in competitive circles. Note that substituting moves doesn't count as an escapable combo. In melee, Falcon dthrow to followup is a combo regardless of DI. DI only changes the nature of the followup.

Would you really like the chaingrab better if you could move all three sprites along the platform while you're being infinited. It'd feel the same to me.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

When did people start thinking the argument "Non-DI dependant 2 hit combos are in the same boat as Zero-to-Death Infinite Grabs" did anything other then make them look incredibly ignorant about the physics of the game?
Seriously, find something else to try and argue. You have hit a dead end on this road. xD



I would honestly vote to just leave the CG alone forever if I wasn't afraid it had the potential to become overpowered in the right hands.

So I'll just vote to leave it alone for now and address it if it becomes a real issue. I don't think it will, but just to be safe.

 

[thesage]

I wish you could make them focus more on desynching instead of cgs...

 

[Team Giza]

I wish you could make them focus more on desynching instead of cgs...

I'm working on ideas for that too. Not sure what things are going to be possible yet. But this is important too. But I'm afraid to buff it if there is a true infinite lurking around the corner.

 

[FrozenHobo]

why the **** is this even a consideration? its what they do! given the level of difficulty in learning the CGs, if you get grabbed then you deserve to get wrecked. i don't want to say its all they have going for them but it does make up pretty much 80% of their gameplay. you might as well take away falcon's knee or ganon's stomp or snakes explosives or robs laser/gyro or G&W's broken-*** hitboxes. it sucks, but those are parts of those characters. you take those away and you take away huge parts of those characters. you take away CGs you take away more than a move or a technique, you take away they're ****ing play style.

so i ask again, why the **** is this even being considered? you take away ICs CGs then i want snake to lose his explosives, i want falcon to not have any kill moves, i want ROB to have NO b moves, i want G&W to not have bucket braking, and by god i want MK BOTTON TIER!

 

[KarateF22]

why the **** is this even a consideration? its what they do! given the level of difficulty in learning the CGs, if you get grabbed then you deserve to get wrecked. i don't want to say its all they have going for them but it does make up pretty much 80% of their gameplay. you might as well take away falcon's knee or ganon's stomp or snakes explosives or robs laser/gyro or G&W's broken-*** hitboxes. it sucks, but those are parts of those characters. you take those away and you take away huge parts of those characters. you take away CGs you take away more than a move or a technique, you take away they're ****ing play style.

so i ask again, why the **** is this even being considered? you take away ICs CGs then i want snake to lose his explosives, i want falcon to not have any kill moves, i want ROB to have NO b moves, i want G&W to not have bucket braking, and by god i want MK BOTTON TIER!

Amen man, thats dead on.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i notice that outside of this banning discussion everyone only ever argues that ICs have CGs in their favor. never do you hear people bring the desyncs into consideration unless it means there's a possibilty of removing something they find annoying.

how many of you argue desyncs in character matchups? how many of you can say you haven't argued against ICs saying that all they have going for them are their CGs? how many of you can say you don't just want to make changes to IC's CGs because you dislike getting o-death'd?