Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[1048576]

If you weaken the grab game, you homogenize the character.

I would be all for removing the infinite, but I say replace it with a 0-death which replicates an infinite for all competitive purposes except stalling.

 

[Teronist09]

If you weaken the grab game, you homogenize the character.

I would be all for removing the infinite, but I say replace it with a 0-death which replicates an infinite for all competitive purposes except stalling.

Removing the infinite isn't weakening the grab game. Why does EVERYONE say that? They would still retain their grab game, but they wouldn't be able to completely cancel out the input of their opponent. If the character NEEDS to have the ability to render their opponent COMPLETELY HELPLESS as you imply, then they NEED to be fixed.

That's ridiculous. If we were going to do that why even get rid of the infinite? Again, if they NEED the ability to 0 death an opponent because there is no way for them to get out of the grab once initiated short of the IC messing up, they need to be fixed.

 

[Plum]

Removing the infinite isn't weakening the grab game. Why does EVERYONE say that? They would still retain their grab game, but they wouldn't be able to completely cancel out the input of their opponent. If the character NEEDS to have the ability to render their opponent COMPLETELY HELPLESS as you imply, then they NEED to be fixed.

That's ridiculous. If we were going to do that why even get rid of the infinite? Again, if they NEED the ability to 0 death an opponent because there is no way for them to get out of the grab once initiated short of the IC messing up, they need to be fixed.

I hate the word fix in this situation.

Fix implies something is broken.

I'll say it again, in NO WAY ARE THE ICE CLIMBER INFINITES BROKEN.

Something like DDD's infinite on DK, Bowser, Samus, Luigi and Mario is broken. Shiek's Ftilt on characters like Gdorf is broken. Pika's Fthrow and Dthrow CG's on someone like Falco or Fox is broken. Those things skew the respective matchups so much that they can safely be deemed broken.
(On a side rant, I will say that the idea of them being broken is one terrible john from the Smash community. Notice how other fighting games work perfectly fine even with these types of thing? Doesn't matter here though, I am treating this with how Smash is played, not other fighting games.)
The IC infinites harm every character in the same way, but unlike those other things listed, the IC's have so many inherent flaws that the infintes are simply not an issue and it is feasible to actually avoid it for an entire match.

 

[Frogles]

if you want lame bs like this go back to vbrawl. grab should not = instant death unless it involves tech chasing/ working around di. really i dont understand what the problem is. we aren't just gonna remove the infinite and call it a day. they'll be buffed and their grab game will still be deadly, they'll just have to work for it more when they get the grab.

 

[Bowser King]

Those are broken Giza. They work on every single character, they're easy to execute, easy to set up and easy to perform, they easily reach kill percent and set up for a kill, and have next to no requirements at all. They're also equipped on characters that are not intricately flawed.

1. Your main argument is that the chaingrab won't be as good as it was in Vbrawl. I'm sorry but I realize it got nerfed but your making it sound as if the nerf was enough to make it like falco's chaingrab (not saying his chaingrab is bad I mean't comparatively between him and other CG). When, it in fact, is not that much of a nerf.

2. Some chars STILL get shut down by IC's. I for one know that even though there is a slight nerf in the chaingrab, bowser still has an extremely hard time with the IC's.

3. What about the non-broken chaingrabs? Like D3's normal CG, falco's CG, yoshi's CG, Bowsers CG and a few others. There not broken yet they were all (?) removed.

-Bowser King

 

[zephyrnereus]

what about adding a stale move system to the grabs? that way, it would reach the point where doing an infinite for a certain amount of throws would do little to no damage, thus making it useless... it could affect all throws equally (all throws counting as a single move). I dunno if it's possible, but it could be an alternative to just removing it...

 

[Finns7]

I think it would be better to just remove the INFINITE and buff them from there.

 

[leafgreen386]

what about adding a stale move system to the grabs? that way, it would reach the point where doing an infinite for a certain amount of throws would do little to no damage, thus making it useless... it could affect all throws equally (all throws counting as a single move). I dunno if it's possible, but it could be an alternative to just removing it...

The problem is not that it's a 0-death. The problem is that it's an infinite which the opponent has absolutely no control over their character while it's going on.

 

[Finns7]

Brawl+ also emphasizes depth, D3 and falcos metagames had basically no depth or rather there metagame only hindered there ability to grow as characters, there cg's werent broken broken. I see the infinite homogenizing the IC's metagame at high levels. Why dont we give them options.

 

[1048576]

Homogenizing it with respect to what, pray tell? No other character cares about the grab that much. In high level Melee, IC's were all about the grabs. No matter how many differnet ways you can think of to say the same thing, nerfing their grabs at the expense of their approaches and basic attakcs makes them more like the other characters in the roster. That's a bad thing.

Also, what do you mean D3 and Falco had no depth. They had about the same depth as everyone else, IMO.

If the problem is that the opponent has no control of their character, well that's true of any true combo. *ahem Nana death upthrow

 

[Team Giza]

Homogenizing it with respect to what, pray tell? No other character cares about the grab that much.

I think he means that since its so powerful it would homogenize the way all ice climbers players play. Basically, it would make it so all high level ice climbers players play exactly the same way. I don't agree with this but I still think it would make things more interesting to have tons of different chainthrows that have the potential of being escape but are very hard to would make it better. Since then it wouldnt just be the same chainthrow technique over and over.

 

[Deleted member]

*ahem Nana death upthrow

Remove the difficulty in the chaingrab? It might not be a lot of difficulty, but IC mains work really hard to never mess up CGs, if you remove that, you'd be left with something like 4.0 beta Rest.

 

[1048576]

Who cares about the technical skill? Don't we use auto l-cancelling? If it's learnable, it will be learned.

 

[GHNeko]

Who cares about the technical skill? Don't we use auto l-cancelling? If it's learnable, it will be learned.

lol @ arugement used against infinites.

I find this humerus.

 

[Rkey]

I think he means that since its so powerful it would homogenize the way all ice climbers players play. Basically, it would make it so all high level ice climbers players play exactly the same way. I don't agree with this but I still think it would make things more interesting to have tons of different chainthrows that have the potential of being escape but are very hard to would make it better. Since then it wouldnt just be the same chainthrow technique over and over.

Yes, and if all the different throws have to be DIed in different ways to be escapable, the grabbed one would have to guess which grab was coming up. For example, the f-throw to nana fair should be DIed upwards to be escapable, when the footstool-thing (don't remember how it was done) should be DIed forward to be escapable etc. THAT would be nice.

And ofc, CG are easier to escape at higher percents, and so are most combos, so that ballances out I believe.

 

[1048576]

Then their grab game would be no better than Marths

 

[GHNeko]

Then their grab game would be no better than Marths

I still dont see how you would think something like that.

 

[Ulevo]

1. Your main argument is that the chaingrab won't be as good as it was in Vbrawl. I'm sorry but I realize it got nerfed but your making it sound as if the nerf was enough to make it like falco's chaingrab (not saying his chaingrab is bad I mean't comparatively between him and other CG). When, it in fact, is not that much of a nerf.[/FONT]

No. I'm not making that comparison, you are. I'm explaining how the CG no longer distorts match ups, or at least not to the extent where a large part of the cast are no longer viable. For those who struggle, such as Bowser, they are likey characters that struggle with other members of the cast as well, and thus need to be fixed. Not the Ice Climbers.

2. Some chars STILL get shut down by IC's. I for one know that even though there is a slight nerf in the chaingrab, bowser still has an extremely hard time with the IC's.[/FONT]

I am not going to discredit you as a Bowser main, but I really don't think you have enough experience in Brawl Plus to adamantly believe for certain in a logical manner that the Ice Climbers can effectively give your character a huge disadvantage. For that to occur, you would need extensive experience against fighting IC, not a few matches. That's unlikely, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt right now and just say that it is likely Bowser that needs to be fixed. I can think of a few other characters that give Bowser an extremely hard time as well.

3. What about the non-broken chaingrabs? Like D3's normal CG, falco's CG, yoshi's CG, Bowsers CG and a few others. There not broken yet they were all (?) removed.

-Bowser King

They distorted match ups, and gave the characters in question a large advantage. There was no method to prevent that disadvantage other than not being grabbed, which had an unreasonable reward for the user in comparison to the lack of effort needed for the requirement. Also, most of those characters were in fact good characters, top tier even, without the CG.

 

[cobaltblue]

New ideas o_o

- remove Infinits
+ increase grab range
+ decrease d-throw knockback (Dthrow CG would be easier and longer)
+ increase up-throw knockback
+ make nana invicible (I mean she cant get hit xd So she wouldnt die that easy anymore (only if you mess up off-stage)... i dont know if this is possible but would be rly cool x)


what do you think ? (is the last one to broken xD ???)

I'd love to see that last one. Everyone here agrees that they don't have anything going for them besides the throw. Taking that away and allowing for an invicible nana could allow for interesting setups as you could manipulate her to do attacks with impuity.

Or if that is too much perhaps some sorta super armour that would require the cpu to have around bowser level of damage before death.

 

[GHNeko]

No. I'd just make ICs broken and remove the one of the criteria for the infinite. Possibly 2.

 

[kupo15]

I think the poll should have combined the first two responses into "change the infinite" that way it would be more fair. If you look at the polls, the first two actually should be combined which would mean that it changing the infinite in some form would have the most votes instead of it being split up. I know myself was confused as to the difference between option 1 and 2.

 

[GHNeko]

Imo, the first should be changed to "remove the infinite" and the second should be gone as we're talking about removing the infinite, not changing their chaingrabs. :|

 

[kupo15]

it should:
Take some action 112
Take no action 51
Wait to decide 77

It seems like the current poll is biased against taking action by splitting it up because clearly, 112 people want to change it in some form which is the real question at the momentum. What we do to it should be later because right now, the decision of the current poll would be to wait when in fact more people want to change it in some fashion.

 

[zephyrnereus]

The problem is not that it's a 0-death. The problem is that it's an infinite which the opponent has absolutely no control over their character while it's going on.

I think the problem is both, not just that its a 0-death or the no control. but why do something that turns useless? this might at least discourage the use of grab-grab infinites... the problem is that IC's have a versatile grab game. it's what makes them unique. we can't just remove it...what about removing the throw damage all together? grab infinites would be useless and force IC to use attacks in combination with the throws. grabs would now be used to set up (that is if they can grab the opponent) and if we give their attacks some buffing, might make a playstile similar to the original but removes the usefulness of infinites (and to a lesser extent, CGs).

 

[kupo15]

Making CGs deal no damage would still keep the stalling problem and since they deal no damage, the timing never changes. We should change it pretourney season because if we don't, then ICers are screwed when the TO bans the infinites when they have nothing to fall back on

 

[zephyrnereus]

true...I forgot there are people out there that stall...bunch of cheaters...
this might sound crazy/stupid, but what about a reverse stale move system that inflicts more damage to the ICs the more they spam CGs? a sacrifice for such a powerful move?

like I said, this idea is crazy (and probably not even possible).

 

[goodoldganon]

it should:
Take some action 112
Take no action 51
Wait to decide 77

It seems like the current poll is biased against taking action by splitting it up because clearly, 112 people want to change it in some form which is the real question at the momentum. What we do to it should be later because right now, the decision of the current poll would be to wait when in fact more people want to change it in some fashion.

Meh, you can interpret these results anyway you want. That's the glory of numbers and statistics. I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself included, that voted to wait but lean more towards leaving CGs alone.

 

[jokey665]

Meh, you can interpret these results anyway you want. That's the glory of numbers and statistics. I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself included, that voted to wait but lean more towards leaving CGs alone.

I voted to wait but lean towards removing the Ice Climbers chaingrabs entirely.

 

[GHNeko]

lolinterpretation. Stats can fail so hard sometimes.

What we should do, is gather up the best suggestions, make codes for them, test them out, find the best 1-2, then ask after extensive testing if we pick option 1, 2, or dont touch it at all.

The issue is we're trying to find an answer now and then make it happen. If we made a few suggestions happen and get people to try it out, it'd be alot easier to figure out this issue.

 

[kupo15]

Remove the chaingrab entirely (this is altering it in some form)
Weaken the grab without removing it - perhaps by making it escapable or harder to initiate (this is also altering it in some form)

I don't know how you can interpret it anyway. That would be like me giving you these options

Alter the CG 82 votes
Don't Alter the CG 51 votes
Wait 5 months 65 votes
Wait 10 months 50 votes

According to the "numbers", we will alter the CG because it has 82 even though the combined total of two categories which have the same prospect are more than altering the CG. See what I mean?

I just hope that Removing the infinite and Weakening the CG are added together to count towards the same response to the problem when we close this poll and not take the "wait" action merely because one action was split up into two different categories. They should act as one in the final tally.

 

[leafgreen386]

Tbh, there should only be two choices. Remove the infinite or do not remove the infinite. The "wait" option really has no bearing on the argument at all. The question isn't about buffing or nerfing the ICs. The question is about if we should be keeping an infinite in the game.

 

[GHNeko]

I thought we wanted to remove the infinite.

Why are we talking about messing with chaingrabs.

And by chaingrabs, I mean chaingrabs that arent infinite and have to even eventually or can be broken out of/DI'd out of.

 

[kupo15]

I thought we wanted to remove the infinite.

Why are we talking about messing with chaingrabs.

And by chaingrabs, I mean chaingrabs that arent infinite and have to even eventually or can be broken out of/DI'd out of.

Hence why I was completely confused by the poll options

 

[GHNeko]

I blame OP for screwing up the poll.

I demand a No Contest.

 

[Plum]

it should:
Take some action 112
Take no action 51
Wait to decide 77

It seems like the current poll is biased against taking action by splitting it up because clearly, 112 people want to change it in some form which is the real question at the momentum. What we do to it should be later because right now, the decision of the current poll would be to wait when in fact more people want to change it in some fashion.

By that logic, there would be more voting to leave them in, if only at least for now.
With the numbers right now it would be 118 wanting to do something with the infinite and 135 wanting it kept as is for the time being at the least.

 

[kupo15]

By that logic, there would be more voting to leave them in, if only at least for now.
With the numbers right now it would be 118 wanting to do something with the infinite and 135 wanting it kept as is for the time being at the least.

No. "Wait to decide" means neutral so it would be:

Action 162
No action 94

 

[Team Giza]

I demand a No Contest.

kupo, the topic was screwed up from the start. Don't try to skew the numbers is a flawed topic to your advantage.

 

[cobaltblue]

No. I'd just make ICs broken and remove the one of the criteria for the infinite. Possibly 2.

From punching bag to god tier is just pay back >_>.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I say it depends on the results brawl + ICs will bring us.

 

[Kitamerby]

Make the CG end at 998%.


Everyone's happy.







Wait for tournament results.