Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[DanGR]

^^v stands for "vanilla"

Also...there are no other 0-death guaranteed combos in brawl+ so....mission accomplished?

And what if we still allow them to do the grab->footstool->iceblock reset infinite? That thing is sooo much harder to perform, it's also character specific and doesn't work on sloped stages (even extremely minor slopes like Yoshi's Island). Then to solve the "infinite" part we could give Iceblock scaled knockback instead of fixed knockback (very, very small scaling, so that it's still useful for resets at most percentages)?

People will master the infinites if it's possible to do them consistently. Besides, backthrow->footstool->iceblock is pretty easy. The difficult part is landing the grab and getting nana in the position to begin the chaingrab before the opponent breaks loose.

vbrawl = "vanilla brawl," where "vanilla" is a term usually used to refer to the original game where it has been modded.

And as a matter of fact, we actually are removing all other guaranteed chaingrabs. Ones that are not guaranteed are fair game, however. ICs are a special case, though, since their entire game revolves around their grabs. That's why this debate is so important.

So you guys are removing chaingrabs. Hmm... I guess I'd have to see what everyone's goal was when they started the Brawl+ project. If it's to make the game "more fun" then you just have to see what more people prefer to play with/without.

I personally think chaingrabs make the game boring, but I do see the problem in changing something so significant to a character. Have you guys made a thread in the IC character board about this? I think that would be a good idea.

 

[Gravyguy101]

I think its pretty simple.

Infinite = bad

If they have the infinite its basically their go to move. doesn't matter what else we do eventually someone is gonna get good enough to where it becomes a grab = a stock. Why not buff them in other attributes? Give there moves more tripping ability or maybe some more ice element based attacks. Or, lower their friction on the ground and up the knockback on the Dsmash, this will let them unleash their Dsmash more often. Some Suggestions...

As said before they would still have CGs, just not an infinite. I don't see why not just get rid of the infinite. Yeah they rely on it, but a lot of characters in brawl relied on cheap tactics and no longer do in brawl+. Thats what we are here to fix.

There are plenty of places we can improve the IC in. As previously stated infinites = bad.

 

[cman]

People will master the infinites if it's possible to do them consistently. Besides, backthrow->footstool->iceblock is pretty easy. The difficult part is landing the grab and getting nana in the position to begin the chaingrab before the opponent breaks loose.


So you guys are removing chaingrabs. Hmm... I guess I'd have to see what everyone's goal was when they started the Brawl+ project. If it's to make the game "more fun" then you just have to see what more people prefer to play with/without.

I personally think chaingrabs make the game boring, but I do see the problem in changing something so significant to a character. Have you guys made a thread in the IC character board about this? I think that would be a good idea.

The problem with making threads on vbrawl character boards is that most of them don't take time to understand what has been done and what can be done, so their opinions aren't very helpful. For example, even in your post, you mentioned the iceblock lock when in fact it doesn't exist anymore. All of the jab/laser/ice locks are gone because the 'forced get-up' mechanic which allowed the locks was removed. Characters can now roll, get-up attack, or stand normally in any situation just like they can in most situations in brawl. That kind of stuff makes it very difficult to discuss B+ with people who don't play it in my experience.

 

[Deleted member]

Waiting for tournament results also just pushes the problem further down the line and will only cause more problems.

Waiting for tournament results lets us see how many TOs ban/limit the Infinites, if many tournament ban infinites, it's probably a good idea to remove them and greatly buff the IC in other areas, since what use are the infinites if they're banned?-What use are the Ice Climbers if infinites are banned?
The other question is "Will we risk entirely changing the ICs metagame? and difficult the jump from vBrawl to Brawl+ to IC mains, or, Will we leave them/give them some small buff and allow their infinites to remain? and risk TOs banning infinites, therefor not allowing IC mains to use IC, because they're probably not tournament viable"

 

[Teronist09]

I don't think waiting till data from tournaments is really necessary. We should test out buffing their other moves and things that dont pertain to the infinite, try out removing it when we have the ability, and then see how viable they are with an escapable chaingrab game as well as whatever new option they gain. We'd need some IC mains to help test for this to work, of course...

Also, couldn't TO's just use whatever buff/nerf codes are developed for their codesets instead of just banning the infinite?

 

[DanGR]

The problem with making threads on vbrawl character boards is that most of them don't take time to understand what has been done and what can be done, so their opinions aren't very helpful. For example, even in your post, you mentioned the iceblock lock when in fact it doesn't exist anymore. All of the jab/laser/ice locks are gone because the 'forced get-up' mechanic which allowed the locks was removed. That kind of stuff makes it very difficult to discuss B+ with people who don't play it in my experience.

And that's exactly why I'm not voting.
I guess I should read up.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, couldn't TO's just use whatever buff/nerf codes are developed for their codesets instead of just banning the infinite?

Riiiight, you know how hard playing different versions of your main in a competitive level is? as if it weren't hard enough to train for vBrawl and Brawl+ alone, imagine 2 Brawl+ versions of IC and vIC.

 

[Team Giza]

If we can then we should leave it in but find a way to make it escapable so it is no longer a truth infinite. I think the best way of doing this is by making a window so if the opponent presses the grab button then they break out of Nana's grab. If it is possible make it a ground escape but that might lead to another infinite depending on the amount of lag Popo gets from the downthrow, if it would lead to a new infinite than make it a air release. Hopefully this would allow the Ice Climbers to attempt the regrab but still allow the opponent to escape, but even if they do it would allow Popo to get some sort of hit in afterward.

The window to press the grab button should be somewhat small and have a window that nullifies the escape to avoid it being escapable by mashing Z. Also pressing a direction during this time should also nullify the cancel so that you cannot be mashing Z and be attempting to DI one of their other set ups at the same time.

This nerf would have to go along with a large amount of various buffs to the ice climbers. Hopefully we will be able to work in some new chainthrows so they have better mixups to throw off the regrab escape and proper DI.

 

[CT Chia]

remove it entirely, and my it, i mean the pass back and forth infinite. standard chain grabs are cool like ikes, ddd's, etc. but this... no no.

 

[Deleted member]

why would you ever consider leaving this in? like really, why? brawl+ is a game where you take out all of the ******** ****, and you actually need to have a poll for this?

 

[GHNeko]

....Has anyone ever thought about decreasing/slowing down the start up/ending animation of Nana's and ONLY Nana's grab?

That'd solve the standard infinite imo.

 

[meepxzero]

my two cents. If u got rid of alt grab infinites, how you gonna get rid of hobbling?

 

[peachfvl]

i think it was the cape that posted some really good options for buffing ICs without changing their metagame revolving around grabs on the ICs discussion thread

i totally support those

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

why would you ever consider leaving this in? like really, why? brawl+ is a game where you take out all of the ******** ****, and you actually need to have a poll for this?

i really don't know.

 

[Deleted member]

remove it entirely, and my it, i mean the pass back and forth infinite. standard chain grabs are cool like ikes, ddd's, etc. but this... no no.

standard chain grabs are cool like ikes, ddd's, etc. but this... no no.

like ikes, ddd's, etc.

ddd's

Seriously?

my two cents. If u got rid of alt grab infinites, how you gonna get rid of hobbling?

IIRC footstools are techable now, I remember Cape saying so, can't test because I've been away from my wii.

 

[Team Giza]

my two cents. If u got rid of alt grab infinites, how you gonna get rid of hobbling?

From what I have seen the new teching code fixes a lot of forms of hobbling while other forms still give you a chance and escape. I'm not sure if all forms all into these two categories though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The problem with making threads on vbrawl character boards is that most of them don't take time to understand what has been done and what can be done, so their opinions aren't very helpful. For example, even in your post, you mentioned the iceblock lock when in fact it doesn't exist anymore. All of the jab/laser/ice locks are gone because the 'forced get-up' mechanic which allowed the locks was removed. Characters can now roll, get-up attack, or stand normally in any situation just like they can in most situations in brawl. That kind of stuff makes it very difficult to discuss B+ with people who don't play it in my experience.

No, Ice Block reset, not lock. Jab/laser/ice resets are still present in this game.

However, now that I think about it, that might not be an infinite anymore, since the window between reseting and regrabbing has become substantially shorter (due to them spending less time....bouncing). There may not be enough time for Popo to regrab, since he's the one Iceblocking. It may be possible to have Nana do the regrab though (it would have to be a dash grab and have to be done before Popo is even out of iceblock lag though.)

 

[CT Chia]

i meant the DDD uthrow chaingrab thats in now, not the dthrow one. the dthrow one isnt in brawl+.... i obviously meant brawl+ as ike doesnt have a cg in vBrawl

thank you umbreon, thats what it comes down to lol

also meep, doesnt hobbling have to do with footstooling? im not up to date on all the cool IC terms lol. if it does, u can tech footstools now

 

[jokey665]

i obviously meant brawl+ as ike doesnt have a cg in vBrawl

He does if you give him a wall.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Seriously?

He's reffering to the upthrow chaingrab on fast fallers at low percentages, which is only in brawl+. It is character specific, percentage specific, stage specific (doesn't work under platforms), and DI specific.

He is not reffering to the vbrawl d-throw chaingrab which is only character specific.

my two cents. If u got rid of alt grab infinites, how you gonna get rid of hobbling?

Footstools are techable. I personally don't think they should be and they probably won't be, but I've got a few ideas for that infinite. Heck, the footstool->iceblock reset (hobbling I assume?) probably doesn't even work anymore as a biproduct of our "lock" reset. Characters don't "bounce" for nearly as long when they bounce off the floor anymore (think of it this way. Even laser locking doesn't work any more, and that was a rather fast lock)

 

[Deleted member]

i meant the DDD uthrow chaingrab thats in now, not the dthrow one. the dthrow one isnt in brawl+.... i obviously meant brawl+ as ike doesnt have a cg in vBrawl

Oh, sorry then ;>_>

Footstools are techable. I personally don't think they should be and they probably won't be, but I've got a few ideas for that infinite. Heck, the footstool->iceblock reset (hobbling I assume?) probably doesn't even work anymore as a biproduct of our "lock" reset. Characters don't "bounce" for nearly as long when they bounce off the floor anymore (think of it this way. Even laser locking doesn't work any more, and that was a rather fast lock)

If footstools become untechable the they'll still have their f/bthrow to footstool to b/fair chainthrows.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If footstools become untechable the they'll still have their f/bthrow to footstool to b/fair chainthrows.

But those chainthrows eventually....end.

How much damage do they do again?

 

[Deleted member]

But those chainthrows eventually....end.

How much damage do they do again?

Yeah, they end with an upsmash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg

We could make it so that footstool are harder to tech than normal techs, but handicap=buffer gets in the way, if it's too hard it'll be impossible with 1 frame of buffer, if it's too easy it won't even be a chaingrab because they'll escape on the first footstool.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Can't you just SDI the fair away and avoid the regrab? You may even be able to SDI down and hit the ground after the fair.

Footstooling will sadly not be fixable though (just found out). That kind of fix would require a completely different teching code to be made using some yet to be known method so...footstools will remain techable (I still hope something will be done).

In the event that they do manage to fix that, we could easily remove that infinite by increasing the base knocback of Nana's fair, making you hit the ground before Popo is able to regrab.

A solution for each infinite exists, the only questions are

1. Do they warrant being changed?

and

2. Which change is best?

 

[Hylian]

If this helps you guys at all, the SBR took a vote on the IC infinites a little while ago for normal brawl. The result was about 98% in favor of not banning or limiting it, and one of the votes for yes was a joke vote.

This may not matter because this is brawl+, but if it helps, there you go.

 

[Deleted member]

^^Can't you just SDI the fair away and avoid the regrab?

Oh yeah, QCDI... -_-

 

[Dark Sonic]

Oh yeah, QCDI... -_-

Well...if smash DI works, then I say just leave it.

It's got a simple solution that can be used as early as zero percent so....no johns?

Well, that's one infinite down now for the others....I'll think about that later. Bedtime.

 

[CT Chia]

If this helps you guys at all, the SBR took a vote on the IC infinites a little while ago for normal brawl. The result was about 98% in favor of not banning or limiting it, and one of the votes for yes was a joke vote.

This may not matter because this is brawl+, but if it helps, there you go.

how was one of them a joke vote? it doesnt matter though. its really a completely situation in brawl+. in vBrawl it couldnt be replaced by anything else. in Brawl+ it can, especially with the good suggestions cape gave in the other thread

 

[Shell]

If this helps you guys at all, the SBR took a vote on the IC infinites a little while ago for normal brawl. The result was about 98% in favor of not banning or limiting it, and one of the votes for yes was a joke vote.

This may not matter because this is brawl+, but if it helps, there you go.

Thanks for the thought Hylian.

However, in that circumstance, the decision was either "Nerf" (remove CG) or not.

Our scenario is much different, as it includes different degrees / ways of buffing as well, and doesn't have to tackle enforcement and many of the other problems associated with banning a tactic.

 

[goodoldganon]

Just because we can replace it doesn't mean we need to though. Either way, I'm interested to see the vote.

 

[Hylian]

Thanks for the thought Hylian.

However, in that circumstance, the decision was either "Nerf" (remove CG) or not.

Our scenario is much different, as it includes different degrees / ways of buffing as well, and doesn't have to tackle enforcement and many of the other problems associated with banning a tactic.

We didn't decided to not ban it because we thought it would be hard to ban, we did so because we don't think it needs to be removed.

And chibo, just read through the thread and it's obvious. I'm not going to post names out here.

 

[Team Giza]

We didn't decided to not ban it because we thought it would be hard to ban, we did so because we don't think it needs to be removed.

Is there no rule again using it to stall out the clock in vBrawl?

Regardless the situation is still different as we have the ability to give them more chainthrow options to allow them to still have death from grab combos on all characters without any true infinites. I don't want bad design in brawl+. We have the ability to buff the Ice Climbers in other to make up for the infinite being taken away which is something that could not have been done in vBrawl. I'm not saying the infinite was broken in a competitive sense in vBrawl but I feel that we can make them a better character if we alter the infinite and buff other aspects of the character.

 

[fullynick]

hey any1 how exactly do u do an instant grab release? is it like impossible to do under normal conditions?

 

[tommz]

A great grab game is what the IC's need, and would give them an interesting niche
But broken tactics are broken
Its too bad DIing doesn't seem to work with throws

 

[maticMan94]

I chose to weaken the grabs without removing. Personally I think the IC's have an interesting move-set, and I would love to see what could be accomplished through buffing various attacks.

 

[Dantarion]

A great grab game is what the IC's need, and would give them an interesting niche
But broken tactics are broken
Its too bad DIing doesn't seem to work with throws

The reason the IC's chaingrabs are inescapable is because you are regrabbed BEFORE you fly away.
DI doesn't matter, damage doesn't matter(if you do it right)

 

[Red-Blue]

Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

Weaken the grab without removing it - perhaps by making it escapable or harder to initiate

 

[Ussi]

Why not just make their throws do much more less damage meaning the ICs have to be more consistent with their CGs. Or would that run the clock too much?

 

[CT Chia]

no
it would run the clock...
and... its still an infinite!

with a lil practice u can do it consistently

 

[Green'n'Clean]

Hmm. It's been said before, but a lot of the voters don't really get what's actually going on...