Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[xDD-Master]

I would say:

Remove CGs (For Example remove Nanas grabpossibilty completely)

BUT increase Popo's Grabrange. (Not to great [DDD's] but better then IC's now... maybe something like Snake's Grabrange)

So their Grabgame would still be very good (Smashing while Grabbing), but not infinit anymore.




Sorry if this was already mentioned ^^

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

The infinite shouldn't be removed period, even though it wasn't Brawl+ M2K can escape the infinite but then again...its M2K.

 

[JOE!]

whats with all the "CGs are the basis of the IC's game!!!!"

if that's the case, isnt that a huge problem? o.O

It's wayyy over-centralizing their metagame into "must.....get......Infanite/chain going!"

however, keeping their ability to chain (with some work) but no more infanating, while buffing their other attributes, could make them a cool character, and not just another way of using the R, Z and A buttons

 

[Team Giza]

*facefalm image*

Its not as stupid of a statement as it seems. It would be possible to make the regrab potentially be able to go on forever but allow have their be a guessing game so the opponent could escape it but still be put in a bad position even if they do escape. I already mentioned how we could go about this and still allow alternating grabs to be used at any percent but in order for it to be effective you would have to mix it up with other chaingrabs the ice climbers would have available to them.

whats with all the "CGs are the basis of the IC's game!!!!"

if that's the case, isnt that a huge problem? o.O

It's wayyy over-centralizing their metagame into "must.....get......Infanite/chain going!"

As of right now I think it is a bit of a problem. However, I do not think having them have a very scary chainthrow potential at the core of their game is a bad thing by any means. It makes the opponent have to use more caution. Ice Climbers are gonna need buffs whether we keep the infinite or not.

 

[xDD-Master]

Remove CGs/Infinits...

Increase Grabrange...

That would be the fairest deal

 

[Shell]

Hitbox size in unalterable at this point in time, I believe.

 

[Team Giza]

Remove CGs/Infinits...

Increase Grabrange...

That would be the fairest deal

No it wouldn't. It would get rid of a very interesting aspect the ice climbers have. We shouldn't try removing chaingrabs completely. We should just make them escapable based on a few guessing games that even with all the right guesses by the opponent still leads to them getting hit with hard by it all. I want their throws to be difficult to do in terms of grab range but have them have some good set ups from desyncs that the opponent would need to be very cautious about and fear. I still think its good that one Ice Climbers grab would usually still lead to a KO or at least massive damage.

 

[meepxzero]

if you do take the infinite out your gonna need to buff the hell out of them. A lot of brawl + stuff makes them really bad already. Its harder to powershield and more stun on it so their grab game is already horribly nerfed. Ive only played brawl + like an hr or so. But things that i saw right away that need fixing is nana dies horribly faster now (computer Di is horrible + everyone just dies earlier). Probably the only thing that needs buffing is the forward b recover for a solo climber (since a lot of ice climbers game is gonna revolve around this), but i dunno if you can mess with the physics of it yet.

 

[|RK|]

Personally, I say just make it not infinite. This is like asking whether or not to remove Diddy's bananas. The chaingrab is very important in the IC's metagame, and unlike many other chaingrabs, takes a lot more skill.

 

[Full Metal X]

Chain Grab is another word for "Spam Grab" No.

 

[1048576]

Stop making every character the same. The IC's are good with their all or nothing tactics and their grab game. They fill a great niche in the meta and they are an extremely unique character. You all want to turn them into Mario or something. More grab range, less grab power, buff the approaches, etc... No, there's nothing wrong with the way they play now. I would only suggest making Nana's upthrow have death knockback so opponents wouldn't have to deal with the time-consuming helpless feeling of being infinited. It would just be grab, toss over, die. It's not like this makes them broken. It's very easy to not get grabbed, just don't make stupid mistakes.

 

[goodoldganon]

Stop making every character the same. The IC's are good with their all or nothing tactics and their grab game. They fill a great niche in the meta and they are an extremely unique character. You all want to turn them into Mario or something. More grab range, less grab power, buff the approaches, etc... No, there's nothing wrong with the way they play now. I would only suggest making Nana's upthrow have death knockback so opponents wouldn't have to deal with the time-consuming helpless feeling of being infinited. It would just be grab, toss over, die. It's not like this makes them broken. It's very easy to not get grabbed, just don't make stupid mistakes.

Agreed on all levels. Lots of people have been talking about changes to people that make them too similar to someone else.

 

[KarateF22]

Ice climbers grab is vital to their meta game. To be completely honest, i have gone entire games without the grab and won before. While the grab is awesome when you land it and get it going... the true value behind the ice climbers chain grab is FEAR. Its the ultimate mind game as opponents play completely differently to avoid it... making the ice climbers a unique opponent to face. Removing it would completely alter the ice climbers meta game and prolly make them ****. Many of their attacks are easy to punish OoS... even with new shield stun. Their grab game makes the opponent more reluctant to shield. The chain grab is NEEDED. Besides, it has very unique and oftentimes hard to meet criteria.

The criteria are
1. Ice climbers must be very close together.
2. Both ice climbers must be on the ground.
3. Neither ice climber can be doing an action.
4. Secondary ice climber must be alive (Somewhat of a duh, but nana is very easy to kill if you know what you are doing. She is a bit stupid and does not know how to recover properly... she cant use side-b by herself to recover)
5. At low percents on floaty characters, chain grabbing can be rendered impossible by the opponents actions due to popo not being able to dthrow chaingrab alone on the floatier characters. The opponent can break out at 0-20% before nana's grab endlag finishes to prevent the chain.
6. The chaingrabber must not mess up (harder than it sounds).
7. The stage must not interfere with their grab.

Also, 1048576... giving nana death uthrow is stupid, as chaingrabs are only sometimes 0-deaths. It only becomes a reliable 0-death on fatties tbh. Lighter characters are much easier to screw up 0-deathing. The rest i agree with though. Maybe damage on throws could be upped (which would make the chaingrabs take less time)

 

[GHNeko]

Stop making every character the same. The IC's are good with their all or nothing tactics and their grab game. They fill a great niche in the meta and they are an extremely unique character. You all want to turn them into Mario or something. More grab range, less grab power, buff the approaches, etc... No, there's nothing wrong with the way they play now. I would only suggest making Nana's upthrow have death knockback so opponents wouldn't have to deal with the time-consuming helpless feeling of being infinited. It would just be grab, toss over, die. It's not like this makes them broken. It's very easy to not get grabbed, just don't make stupid mistakes.

You make it seem like its impossible to remove the infinite, keep their grab game, and their desync game, and have them still feel like ICs.

IIRC, Grab Game + Desync = IC, not Infinite = IC.

 

[KarateF22]

You make it seem like its impossible to remove the infinite, keep their grab game, and their desync game, and have them still feel like ICs.

IIRC, Grab Game + Desync = IC, not Infinite = IC.

Its too easy to prevent the ice climbers from initiating a chain grab if you know what your doing, you just keep them seperated or kill the secondary climber. Infinite should remain.

 

[GHNeko]

I didnt vote to remove it. I voted to wait. I was just pointing out something. Rofl.

 

[Bowser King]

IMO, if not so good chaingrabs like yoshi and D3 normal CG are removed because they make the matchup bad for some chars (not really in the case of yoshi) the IC chaingrab should sure as hell be banned. It makes quite a bit of matchups extremely bad. Not to mention there getting buffed already so there is not point.

I myself am AGAINST the idea of banning chaingrabs. It's stupid and all of them should remain (maybe weakened like removing the infinite or smallstep D3 chaingrab).

Oh well, if chaingrabs have to me removed for balance then IC's should definitely be removed.

-Bowser King

 

[KarateF22]

Fair enough, im just saying at this time it shold be left in. If ice climbers could truly do things without their chain grab (and fear of it) then i wouldnt mind weakening it. At this time however, they need that chain grab and it should be left alone. Perhaps later along the way ill change my mind.

 

[Team Giza]

Its too easy to prevent the ice climbers from initiating a chain grab if you know what your doing, you just keep them seperated or kill the secondary climber. Infinite should remain.

I don't think too many people are arguing to get rid of the Ice Climbers chainthrow game. Most seem to just simply want to get rid of it being so repetitive and actually have the potential of stalling out the match indefinitely.

If it was just removing the infinite and do nothing else to the chainthrows I would be completely against getting rid of it. But we have the ability to give them new kinds of chainthrows that would pretty much guarantee a death from a grab or at the very least do an extremely high amount of damage. The point I'm getting at is we can replace it with something that would have basically the same effect but would not have the stalling flaw that the current chainthrow infinites have. They would still have the same fear of being grabbed gameplay that they do now and probably some new scary desyncing traps to get the initial grab as well. I don't want to get rid of their current style of gameplay, I love the fear of getting grabbed play they force the opponent to play and I feel it is really part of their character. I just want to alter it to get rid of the slight design flaw.

 

[KarateF22]

I don't think too many people are arguing to get rid of the Ice Climbers chainthrow game. Most seem to just simply want to get rid of it being so repetitive and actually have the potential of stalling out the match indefinitely.

If it was just removing the infinite and do nothing else to the chainthrows I would be completely against getting rid of it. But we have the ability to give them new kinds of chainthrows that would pretty much guarantee a death from a grab or at the very least do an extremely high amount of damage. The point I'm getting at is we can replace it with something that would have basically the same effect but would not have the stalling flaw that the current chainthrow infinites have. They would still have the same fear of being grabbed gameplay that they do now and probably some new scary desyncing traps to get the initial grab as well. I don't want to get rid of their current style of gameplay, I just want to alter it to get rid of the slight design flaw.

I have never seen it used to stall out a match. ever. Human error guarantees that you cant keep it up long past 150%. At that point we just kill, just make a rule saying no chaining past 200% i wouldnt argue it... i kill before then anyways. The only char ive ever seen stall out with chaingrab is dedede.

 

[Bowser King]

I don't think too many people are arguing to get rid of the Ice Climbers chainthrow game. Most seem to just simply want to get rid of it being so repetitive and actually have the potential of stalling out the match indefinitely.

If it was just removing the infinite and do nothing else to the chainthrows I would be completely against getting rid of it. But we have the ability to give them new kinds of chainthrows that would pretty much guarantee a death from a grab or at the very least do an extremely high amount of damage. The point I'm getting at is we can replace it with something that would have basically the same effect but would not have the stalling flaw that the current chainthrow infinites have.

I disagree. The whole point of removing CG was to balance the game.

How is giving one char the ability to cg (that to a very good one against certain chars and a fairly good one on almost all chars) fair?

You do know that some chars get destroyed by IC's chaingrab right? Isn't that the thing we were trying to get rid of when we took out CGs?
Stalling isn't the main point, its that it makes some matchups really bad.

I can understand how IC's mains feel. Almost any person who's main got there CG removed had the same feeling but you have to realize that if this is the way the games going to go, then it would be better that we just buff the ICs to become a good char (even though IMO they do just fine without it in B+).

-Bowser King

 

[cman]

I have never seen it used to stall out a match. ever. Human error guarantees that you cant keep it up long past 150%. At that point we just kill, just make a rule saying no chaining past 200% i wouldnt argue it... i kill before then anyways. The only char ive ever seen stall out with chaingrab is dedede.

That 200% rule is horrid though. What if they do one past 200? Two or three? What's the punishment? Forfeit? That's rediculous. And it would probably require a judge to decide, which we DO NOT WANT.

 

[KarateF22]

If you do two consecutive past 200%, stalling. easy.

 

[Bowser King]

That 200% rule is horrid though. What if they do one past 200? Two or three? What's the punishment? Forfeit? That's rediculous. And it would probably require a judge to decide, which we DO NOT WANT.

You shouldn't be at 200% in the 1st place.

Even the heaviest char dies at 160% MAX

-Bowser King

 

[Teronist09]

You shouldn't be at 200% in the 1st place.

Even the heaviest char dies at 160% MAX

-Bowser King

^^^ This
Stalling is hardly an issue. People can guess what % grab to upsmash should kill, that should be the basis of solving that problem. Force them to kill within common sense % of death, or tell them what % should be enough.


And why don't we have any IC mains being helpful with the buffing process instead of telling us repeatedly that the infinite isn't broken and we have no reason to take it out?

 

[Team Giza]

I disagree. The whole point of removing CG was to balance the game.

Ice Climber's problem isn't there lack of balance. They are amount the worst i0n Brawl+ right now.

How is giving one char the ability to cg (that to a very good one against certain chars and a fairly good one on almost all chars) fair?

Cause they have horrible grab range and have low traction. Do you understand how horrible of a combination this is in brawl+? Even so, I still like having the other player have some chance of escaping so they are at least attempting something. The game should keep flowing, there should never be a reason to just put down your control in Brawl+ for such a long time but that doesn't mean we need to get rid of the Ice Climbers strong chaingrab potential.

You do know that some chars get destroyed by IC's chaingrab right? Isn't that the thing we were trying to get rid of when we took out CGs?
Stalling isn't the main point, its that it makes some matchups really bad.

The match ups aren't really as bad as they were in vbrawl. Take Fox for example. Many of his aerials are safe against their shields now. His lasers have a slight trap affect on peoples shields as well so he can deplete their shields a bit before approaching. The match ups have changed quite a bit, and it definitely has not been in the ICs favor.

I can understand how IC's mains feel. Almost any person who's main got there CG removed had the same feeling but you have to realize that if this is the way the games going to go, then it would be better that we just buff the ICs to become a good char (even though IMO they do just fine without it in B+).

Ice Climber always had chainthrows at the heart of their game, in both melee and brawl. Its what makes them scary when they are otherwise not frightening. They are the T. Hawk of smash bros. The game shouldn't stop for the opponent when the grab is made and be based completely on tech skill of the IC player. There should still be prediction involved in chainthrowing even if it almost always leads to the ice climbers getting some kind of follow up. We should work to try and make Ice Climbers have more tools that would balance out their match ups a bit better too. But there grab chains still should be, by far, the scariest in the game.

Stalling is hardly an issue. People can guess what % grab to upsmash should kill, that should be the basis of solving that problem. Force them to kill within common sense % of death, or tell them what % should be enough.

Its not about not knowing when the kill comes. Its about stalling the clock for the mere sake of stalling the clock to get a win. I attempt to get time overs in many games in order to get a win.

If you do two consecutive past 200%, stalling. easy.

If we decide to do that we would find a way to actually put this cut off point in the game with a code. To me it seems like a sloppy fix when we could make the Ice Climbers chaingrab game a beautiful thing. But whatever.

 

[goodoldganon]

^^^ This
Stalling is hardly an issue. People can guess what % grab to upsmash should kill, that should be the basis of solving that problem. Force them to kill within common sense % of death, or tell them what % should be enough.


And why don't we have any IC mains being helpful with the buffing process instead of telling us repeatedly that the infinite isn't broken and we have no reason to take it out?

Because maybe it isn't? Are the infinites lame? I'd say yes, but it's debatable. It's much harder to get the grab in B+. It just requires you to avoid getting grabbed. Every character should have safe means of poking the shield. If they don't bring it up in the Plussery thread. I think we are making a hasty decision to remove or alter the CGs till we have evidence.

 

[Teronist09]

Because maybe it isn't? Are the infinites lame? I'd say yes, but it's debatable. It's much harder to get the grab in B+. It just requires you to avoid getting grabbed. Every character should have safe means of poking the shield. If they don't bring it up in the Plussery thread. I think we are making a hasty decision to remove or alter the CGs till we have evidence.

My problem was more that it seems all of them JUST say it isn't. That's fine, it might not be. But we haven't gotten anything constructive (that I've seen. I could just be blind) from them either. Just the same DONT TOUCH IT arguments. I also don't think it matters if we have evidence at this time or not. We're at a testing phase, we need to test to see if it really is a viable option. But it seems the IC users are very hesitant to change...

Its not about not knowing when the kill comes. Its about stalling the clock for the mere sake of stalling the clock to get a win. I attempt to get time overs in many games in order to get a win.

I was more saying tell them to kill around the % common sense would say they would die at. It's probably not the best idea to get rid of stalling (which I wasn't aware was even a problem with the IC infinite...), but it seems the most obvious. Just make sure they kill when they should be able to kill.

 

[goodoldganon]

My problem was more that it seems all of them JUST say it isn't. That's fine, it might not be. But we haven't gotten anything constructive (that I've seen. I could just be blind) from them either. Just the same DONT TOUCH IT arguments. I also don't think it matters if we have evidence at this time or not. We're at a testing phase, we need to test to see if it really is a viable option. But it seems the IC users are very hesitant to change...

Ah, ya I agree. IC mains are quiet and few and far between.

 

[Team Giza]

My problem was more that it seems all of them JUST say it isn't. That's fine, it might not be. But we haven't gotten anything constructive (that I've seen. I could just be blind) from them either. Just the same DONT TOUCH IT arguments. I also don't think it matters if we have evidence at this time or not. We're at a testing phase, we need to test to see if it really is a viable option. But it seems the IC users are very hesitant to change...

The tactic is broken from a design perspective as it completely removes the ability for the opponent to do anything until the IC player decides to KO them or just screws up execution.

I was more saying tell them to kill around the % common sense would say they would die at. It's probably not the best idea to get rid of stalling (which I wasn't aware was even a problem with the IC infinite...), but it seems the most obvious. Just make sure they kill when they should be able to kill.

Do you feel we should program in a value for each character to make this work?

 

[Plum]

I wish I could find Hylian's posts on IC's infinites but they are what convinced me they belong in vBrawl and I feel like a lot of people should read them

Anyways, removing the infinites removes ANY reason to play as them.

Desynching is a gimmick mind game tool that can be turned against you VERY easily. First time you see a desynch you will be amazed as they slowly creep towards you with alternating blizzards. Then there is the point where you realize something. The IC's have poor options. If you can space properly then they have nothing on you. They can desynch aerials, ice blocks, blizzards or whatever move they want but look at where it leaves Nana. Away from Popo. It is great against somebody who doesn't know how to deal with it but a player who knows the matchup can render it basically useless and arguably a bad idea.

Their other CG's? They give them like 20 or 30 percent. Dthrow to Fair will go like 25 percent before the opponent is forced to hit the ground. Dthrow CG offers little percent. Other then that, all they have is their alt throw/hobbling infinites.

Yes, I do understand that Brawl+ has the ability to give them new options. But Brawl+ shouldn't take a characters metagame and throw it away; that gives a bad picture to the game and goes against the idea of it anyways. Wasn't one of the reasons against MAD and HAD in official Brawl+ was how it alienated newer competitive players who joined the scene after Melee? It radically changed the way Brawl was played and that wasn't the idea of Brawl+. It was supposed to feel like Brawl, but faster, with more offensive options, and all around more competitive.

Taking away the infinites would be a similar thing. As much as you might like to john about it, taking them away would be a radical change from vBrawl and alienate potential players; why should IC mainers EVER touch Brawl+ when they can't even play THEIR MAIN without changing their entire playstyle and learn a new metagame?

I don't really like to resort to Sirlin but their infinites do not warrant a ban/removal. It does not over centralize the game in ANY and it is something that can be COUNTERED. Don't like the infinite? Pick a stage like Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, or Norfair. Are all those stages banned in your tourney's stage list (for shame if they are...) pick a character that counters them. Snake, MK, G&W, ROB and Pika all come up at the top of my head.

EDIT: Looking up at a post that was made while I was taking my time to type this out, I saw somebody argue that they DESTROY some matches. To that I have the simple response of too bad. You are the only person to blame for that. Harsh as it is, it is nobody's fault but your own that I play a character that does well against them and you don't. It is called counterpicking. Even in a game where literally every character is viable and top tier there will be bad matchups. Simply because characters are made differently. Some characters are just physically incapable of effectively dealing with projectile spam. Some characters are fast fallers and will get get hit with combos to their death before they can react. Some characters are floaty and can weave in and out of combos. It is just how the game is. Learn a character to deal with problem matchups. If your lucky it won't be as bad in B+ as it was in vBrawl.

I would say that they need buffs outside the infinites, but the infinites belong in the game. They could be played without wobbling in Melee because the character was still good enough to make it without an infinite. But in Brawl they are a bad character without them. Taking it away would cripple them.

So why not buff them in other areas so they don't need the infinites? Because that is taking a character's metagame and transforming it to a point where an IC main coming from vBrawl to B+ wouldn't be able to play his character.

My vote goes towards needing tourney results before action simply because I feel that many players won't accept that it is a perfectly fine tactic in the game until they can see concrete evidence that in no way do the IC's infinites break the game or limit it in any way.

 

[Teronist09]

The tactic is broken from a design perspective as it completely removes the ability for the opponent to do anything until the IC player decides to KO them or just screws up execution.

They would argue the opposite and that you should just never get grabbed ever forever never ever forever. This discussion goes in circles and seems to devolve into something other than a discussion. I was trying to instead involve them in a different discussion where they could be of use as people who know more about the character, but I get the same response...

Do you feel we should program in a value for each character to make this work?

I assume you're being sarcastic. If not then I have no response lol.

Taking away the infinites would be a similar thing. As much as you might like to john about it, taking them away would be a radical change from vBrawl and alienate potential players; why should IC mainers EVER touch Brawl+ when they can't even play THEIR MAIN without changing their entire playstyle and learn a new metagame?

I honestly don't see how if we keep it so they CAN cg. The way you put it, it makes it look like their playstyle revolves around giving the opponent no option, for survival besides not getting grabbed (and I can't tell you how tired I am of hearing that as an argument). If they still have chaingrabs but they're escapable the only difference is you have to work a little bit harder. Boo hoo.

 

[Team Giza]

I wish I could find Hylian's posts on IC's infinites but they are what convinced me they belong in vBrawl and I feel like a lot of people should read them

I have read them and I agree with them for vBrawl.

Anyways, removing the infinites removes ANY reason to play as them.

This is true in vBrawl. However we can add new things for them.

Desynching is a gimmick mind game tool that can be turned against you VERY easily. First time you see a desynch you will be amazed as they slowly creep towards you with alternating blizzards. Then there is the point where you realize something. The IC's have poor options. If you can space properly then they have nothing on you. They can desynch aerials, ice blocks, blizzards or whatever move they want but look at where it leaves Nana. Away from Popo. It is great against somebody who doesn't know how to deal with it but a player who knows the matchup can render it basically useless and arguably a bad idea.

More desyncing starters need to be implanted and various moves that are good to use while desynced need to be buffed in order to make their options better. This can be done now and should be done regardless of taking out the infinite or not.

Their other CG's? They give them like 20 or 30 percent. Dthrow to Fair will go like 25 percent before the opponent is forced to hit the ground. Dthrow CG offers little percent. Other then that, all they have is their alt throw/hobbling infinites.

Yes that is all they have in vBrawl. In Brawl+ we could find ways to add a wider variety of new effective but not infinite chainthrows. There are numerous ways to go about and accomplish this. I think it would be best to get some advice from Ice Climbers players from both brawl and melee to come up with some new chainthrows that we can add in. Also, I really think it would be best to keep the alternating throws but allow for the opponent to break out of it with a button press, but make it so if they guess it at the wrong time and the IC uses a different chainthrow the attempted grab break would put the opponent at a disadvantage. This way it would allow for all the hard work put into learning the alternating throws would still mean something.

Yes, I do understand that Brawl+ has the ability to give them new options. But Brawl+ shouldn't take a characters metagame and throw it away; that gives a bad picture to the game and goes against the idea of it anyways.

The Cape, myself and a few other have been quite clear about what we want to happen. Our ideas wouldn't take away the IC metagame, it would simply make their chainthrows no longer be true infinites. They can still make the opponent have to live in complete fear of getting grab by going by the changes we want.

Wasn't one of the reasons against MAD and HAD in official Brawl+ was how it alienated newer competitive players who joined the scene after Melee? It radically changed the way Brawl was played and that wasn't the idea of Brawl+. It was supposed to feel like Brawl, but faster, with more offensive options, and all around more competitive.

But we should also fix the design flaws in the game. If we weren't then I think we should allow search for a way to bring back Dedede's chainthrow and infinites. Heck, we should bring back Jab locks as well if we aren't trying to fix all the design flaws. The IC infinite is a design flaw. Even though I have and will continue to argue for it being allowed in vBrawl tournaments, I don't think it should make its way into brawl+ in its current form. We really should find a way to fix up the IC chainthrow game so its still extremely deadly but no longer broken and so repetitive.

Taking away the infinites would be a similar thing. As much as you might like to john about it, taking them away would be a radical change from vBrawl and alienate potential players; why should IC mainers EVER touch Brawl+ when they can't even play THEIR MAIN without changing their entire playstyle and learn a new metagame?

Even if it stays they would need to learn a completely new metagame. The ice climbers can no longer rely on their old grab methods in brawl+. I don't want to throw away their deadly chainthrow ability or the work people put in to learning alternating grabs. I want to keep the alternating grabs in some form but also make it so the opponent has a chance to escape although even if they do they would still be punished by something other than another grab. Heck I would be fine with making it so if the opponent break the alternating grab then that player goes into the slip effect which would give the Ice Climbers another good attempt to get a grab.

I don't really like to resort to Sirlin but their infinites do not warrant a ban/removal. It does not over centralize the game in ANY and it is something that can be COUNTERED. Don't like the infinite? Pick a stage like Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, or Norfair. Are all those stages banned in your tourney's stage list (for shame if they are...) pick a character that counters them. Snake, MK, G&W, ROB and Pika all come up at the top of my head.

Part of the argument here is game design and not playing to win. Funny you bring up Sirlin. Have you read any of his articles on game design? Playing to win and game design are very different things. We should be working on Brawl+ with good game design in mind since we are making this game. The same arguments that work for keeping the infinite in vBrawl tournaments is not going to work here. If it was the same situation, believe me I would be fighting to keep the infinites in.

I would say that they need buffs outside the infinites, but the infinites belong in the game. They could be played without wobbling in Melee because the character was still good enough to make it without an infinite. But in Brawl they are a bad character without them. Taking it away would cripple them.

Most of us aren't asking to take away their chainthrows. We want to get rid of their infinites but add a wide variety of new and effective chainthrows and resets.

So why not buff them in other areas so they don't need the infinites? Because that is taking a character's metagame and transforming it to a point where an IC main coming from vBrawl to B+ wouldn't be able to play his character.

No matter what we will be buffing them in other ways. But I think its important to remember if we get rid of their infinites in their current form we will be replacing them with new chainthrows. I am against the idea of getting rid of their scary chainthrowing game.

My vote goes towards needing tourney results before action simply because I feel that many players won't accept that it is a perfectly fine tactic in the game until they can see concrete evidence that in no way do the IC's infinites break the game or limit it in any way.

Tournament results are not gonna show anything since the infinites are not competitively broken. I am not even arguing that they would in brawl+ as getitng the grab is harder. I want to get rid of a game design flaw when keeping their scary throw chain abilities in tact and perhaps make them scarier in some aspects. I feel it would be better for Brawl+ overall to get rid of these poor design flaws. We have done it before, and plan to do it more in a few other cases, so I don't see why we should be making an exception here just because its going to take more work to program and sometimes come up with idea on how we can rework the character chaingrabs.

They would argue the opposite and that you should just never get grabbed ever forever never ever forever. This discussion goes in circles and seems to devolve into something other than a discussion. I was trying to instead involve them in a different discussion where they could be of use as people who know more about the character, but I get the same response...

Yes they would argue that but that doesnt get rid of the fact that is a design flaw and we have already removed stuff from the game that similar arguments can be made for. If the argument held up then we should also unnerf Sheik's f-tilt, bring back Dedede's chainthrows and infinites, and not do anything to Pikachu's downthrow. But none of that is being argued, I wonder why.

I assume you're being sarcastic. If not then I have no response lol.

No I'm being quite serious. I want to make it so there is no reason to be rules outside of the game concerning their chainthrows.

 

[Plum]

They would argue the opposite and that you should just never get grabbed ever forever never ever forever. This discussion goes in circles and seems to devolve into something other than a discussion. I was trying to instead involve them in a different discussion where they could be of use as people who know more about the character, but I get the same response...




I assume you're being sarcastic. If not then I have no response lol.




I honestly don't see how if we keep it so they CAN cg. The way you put it, it makes it look like their playstyle revolves around giving the opponent no option, for survival besides not getting grabbed (and I can't tell you how tired I am of hearing that as an argument). If they still have chaingrabs but they're escapable the only difference is you have to work a little bit harder. Boo hoo.

Not getting grabbed is completely viable against the IC's.
If that is the only option against it, then oh well, it works. It isn't like saying don't get grabbed by DDD, who has one of the longest grabs in the game and will grab you out of like any move even if spaced. The IC's are easy to space against and play a game of "don't get grabbed."
If you get grabbed against them, then you made a mistake and deserve to be grabbed.

And how can you make it so you can escape their throws?
You are in a thrown animation and can't escape that, and there would be no way you can change that.
Only way to do what you say is to change their metagame so they have moves that string into other grabs, such as Fthrow>Blizzard>Grab>Dthrow>Fair>Grab>Fthrow kind of thing. It would remove the infinites and give them a CG game still that the opponent can escape from if they are smart... But it will totally change the IC's metagame which is a serious problem and should be avoided if possible.
The thing is, it is possible. Keep the infinites which have been proven so many times to not be game breaking. "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

If you have some other way that I am clearly missing, then please do tell.

But my point is that their infinites do not break the game in any way so why should you change it?

Yeah, if B+ tourneys came out with every winner playing as IC's and winning through infinites it would be a problem. But if vBrawl doesn't have that problem then I really don't see why B+ would.

 

[Team Giza]

You are in a thrown animation and can't escape that, and there would be no way you can change that.

We could put in a feature so right after you get thrown a small window opens that allows you to escape a grab that happens 1-3 frames after you are thrown. This escape could put the grabber into a grab break animation and the grab escaper into the same animation or get knocked on the floor.

Only way to do what you say is to change their metagame so they have moves that string into other grabs, such as Fthrow>Blizzard>Grab>Dthrow>Fair>Grab>Fthrow kind of thing. It would remove the infinites and give them a CG game still that the opponent can escape from if they are smart... But it will totally change the IC's metagame which is a serious problem and should be avoided if possible.
The thing is, it is possible. Keep the infinites which have been proven so many times to not be game breaking. "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

The only change in the metagame would be that the opponent could escape if the ice climbers player is being too careless with how they are chainthrowing. I want to keep the alternate throws in so that the hard work I put in to learn them won't go completely to waste but the infinite is still flawed from a game design standpoint.

edit: Thinking back "The only change in the metagame" was a dumb statement since it would also change how the ice climbers would have start chainthrowing at certain positions of the level. It wouldn't make them much less effective but it would make match up learning with them more complex.

 

[nightSN]

i think that if ic were to be change, they should atleast preserve that there metagame revolves around the grabs. but i also think that we should see how metagame goes so im say wait.

 

[Team Giza]

i think that if ic were to be change, they should atleast preserve that there metagame revolves around the grabs.

No doubt. No reason to change the concept of their character. They gotta be chaingrabbing demons.

But I don't think we should wait for to see how it plays out since its gonna be the same situation as vBrawl. The issue isn't it being competitively broken. Its just broken in a design aspect and I think it would be a bad idea to leave it in the game. Heck, it definitely wouldn't break the game competitively since the ice climbers grab game is far worse than it was in vBrawl. Regardless of getting rid of the infinite the Ice Climbers are gonna need to be completely rethought out, and since we are gonna be working so hard to fix them I just think it would also be good to get rid of a problem like an infinite. Especially since we worked hard to get rid of other flaws like it in the game.

 

[Teronist09]

No I'm being quite serious. I want to make it so there is no reason to be rules outside of the game concerning their chainthrows.

Oh. lol. Well, how were you thinking of having said code work?
It would be a counter of some sort, I assume. All I can think of atm is to just let the character out of the grab if it catches you continuing a grab past the established death %? I don't know how you could have such a code in effect and not mess up other characters grabbing unless the IC (or just Nana) have their own grab id.
(another funny option would be to taze the IC user -_-)

Not getting grabbed is completely viable against the IC's.
If that is the only option against it, then oh well, it works. It isn't like saying don't get grabbed by DDD, who has one of the longest grabs in the game and will grab you out of like any move even if spaced. The IC's are easy to space against and play a game of "don't get grabbed."
If you get grabbed against them, then you made a mistake and deserve to be grabbed.

Possibly so. But what I don't deserve is to be stuck in an infinite damage racking loop with no chance to get out and any input I make ignored. I might as well leave the room and get a sammich till they decide to stop. Why should any one character have the option to completely shut down the other player. COMPLETELY. There is absolutely nothing you can do that will get you out of the initiated infinite. That is called a broken mechanic. If that's all there is to the IC like you seem to be implying they NEED to be changed.

No doubt. No reason to change the concept of their character. They gotta be chaingrabbing demons.

But I don't think we should wait for to see how it plays out since its gonna be the same situation as vBrawl. The issue isn't it being competitively broken. Its just broken in a design aspect and I think it would be a bad idea to leave it in the game. Heck, it definitely wouldn't break the game competitively since the ice climbers grab game is far worse than it was in vBrawl. Regardless of getting rid of the infinite the Ice Climbers are gonna need to be completely rethought out, and since we are gonna be working so hard to fix them I just think it would also be good to get rid of a problem like an infinite. Especially since we worked hard to get rid of other flaws like it in the game.

^^^This

 

[Hyrus]

the argument here is game design, not playing to win

Even modern game designers of high prestiage positions (Sakurai) have trouble figuring out what "game design" is, let alone teens on a game forum. It's hard to factor in polls and statistics when most people aren't even in the mindset of the poll creator.

Epic win, Team Giza. We're taking out all the rest of the rubbish - why stop here? I say no to infinites, yay to alternatives.

 

[Plum]

Even modern game designers of high prestiage positions (Sakurai) have trouble figuring out what "game design" is, let alone teens on a game forum. It's hard to factor in polls and statistics when most people aren't even in the mindset of the poll creator.

Epic win, Team Giza. We're taking out all the rest of the rubbish - why stop here? I say no to infinites, yay to alternatives.

I would love to see alternatives. IC matches are TERRIBLY boring to watch. But it is just too big of a mechanic that is essential to a character to change.

As a game mechanic it is certainly flawed. No doubt about it...
But it isn't competitively broken.

We have the ability to fix a flaw in the design of the game, but if this flaw doesn't affect the competitive play of the game why should it be removed?
B+ is made to be competitive, and as it sits, the infinites do not hurt this in any way. The fact that the IC's can be hard countered prove this.