Ice Climbers Infinite Chaingrab in Brawl+

[KarateF22]

.....you do realize that its extremely hard to land the grab if your opponent is competent, right? and even if you land a grab 0-death isnt guaranteed due to multiple factors. Anyways, ive repeated all this stuff liek 3 times now.... dont repeating it... dont remove chaingrabs.

 

[Teronist09]

.....you do realize that its extremely hard to land the grab if your opponent is competent, right? and even if you land a grab 0-death isnt guaranteed due to multiple factors. Anyways, ive repeated all this stuff liek 3 times now.... dont repeating it... dont remove chaingrabs.

[Multiple] factors all dependent on the initiator/executor of the grab, bla bla, been said. <____<

 

[KarateF22]

Whats your point teronist09?

 

[cutter]

If ICs start to utterly and completely DOMINATE tournaments because of their infinites, then I can understand removing them.

Even if you wanted to get rid of the infinites, you would have to completely disable Nana from doing anything while Popo is grabbing, which would basically mean ICs can't do any grab combos, therefore killing the character.

The infinites get a really bad stigma because it's just like Wobbling; it doesn't look cool and so people think it's gay/dumb/stupid/********.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah you need to let them keep their grab combos. They are just the character.

 

[Deleted member]

if you wanted to get rid of the infinites, you would have to completely disable Nana from doing anything while Popo is grabbing

Where did you get that? the only thing that would have to be removed is Nana's ability to grab while Popo is throwing.

 

[The Cape]

Thing is.

We want ICers to have grab combos, we just dont like the idea that they have a throw to throw infinite that you can only get out of if the opponent messes up.

Giza and I have been working on basically giving the character an entire overhaul to give them more grab setups, kill options, and some cool new chain throws. Once we finish we would encourage people to try it out and give their opinions on them.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Where did you get that? the only thing that would have to be removed is Nana's ability to grab while Popo is throwing.

lol thats not how they work. its grabbing directly after the character is thrown, not while they're being thrown. get your facts together and come back when you know what you're talking about.

 

[The Cape]

You initiate the grab while Popo is performing the throw.

The grabbox comes out when the throw is actually happening, post release.

I think thats what he meant.

 

[KarateF22]

I still dont see why people are so pissed off about a technique that isnt even broken. I think they just hate how hard bad mistakes are punished and it makes them uncomfortable.

 

[Teronist09]

I still dont see why people are so pissed off about a technique that isnt even broken. I think they just hate how hard bad mistakes are punished and it makes them uncomfortable.

... did you even read the last 50 thousand pages? -___-
The problem isn't the technique/ability, it's the inescapablity of it that completely relies on the initiator messing up. And the mistake doesn't have to be that big/bad.

 

[The Cape]

I still dont see why people are so pissed off about a technique that isnt even broken. I think they just hate how hard bad mistakes are punished and it makes them uncomfortable.

Its more the fact that we dont like a one trick pony character. Would be nice to see them with alot more options that make them good.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If we thought it was game breaking, it would be gone right now. No questions asked. You don't just skip a broken game mechanic.
That's like remodeling a house and leaving the asbestos insulation and faulty wiring.

The point is that the ICs are bad characters that rely on a poorly designed infinite with even poorer setups. After getting infinite grabbed a few times, people will pull a Melee and simply not get grabbed or snipe Nana before they get grabbed. They're already C tier, imagine their placing now that they can be comboed and gimped as easily as they are.

They have nothing to fall back on. Nearly every good option they have is quickly tossed away when Nana is dead, and she's not exactly hard to kill.

Now even knowing this, we can't justify improving the only known infinite left in the game, so the only way to buff them is buffing things outside of their grab game such as attack speed, damage, knockback, and lagtime. So in effect, leaving it in will be suicide for the Climbers one way or another. They'll either receive no buffs, or buffs that will make their outside of grab game better, making the grab game highly situational with the Climbers' crappy grab range and killing the ICs' style as surely as a bullet to the back of the skull.




If the B+ Climber players really want this infinite that badly, I say leave it.

 

[KarateF22]

If the B+ Climber players really want this infinite that badly, I say leave it.

Done deal. (if only it were that simple). Anyways, they have a good number of tricks outside of grab game.... their nair is pretty good now... you can short hop nair, dash jump nair, etc. as well as uair chain. you can sideb into a smash or grab at low percents. desyncing tricks still work. You can uair into a fair at low-mid percents. They cannot be safely grabbed. Their low traction, which typically works against them, can be used to do a sliding shield grab. Their dair no longer sucks with lag reduction. They have plenty of tricks as is. leave them be. they dont really need changes. But i have a feeling youll change them anyways . *sigh*

 

[FrozenHobo]

wait.... i want the buffs i mentioned! **** this. just make it so that the timing is harder/easier to escape between grabs and give me my ****ing character buffs.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Done deal.

I said "B+ Climber players".

Not "1 B+ Climber player who talks a lot".

>_>

Edit2: Not a bRoomer, FrozenPopo nor do I intend to present an absolute ultimatum. Just throwing my predictions out there.

 

[Shell]

Relax, Tatsuman and KarateF22 hardly stand for the whole B+ community -- of course we're going to try out the changes that Giza, Cape and yourselves have put so much time and thought into.

 

[KarateF22]

I will try the changes, never said i wouldnt. However, that doesnt mean i wont speak against them for the time being. My opinion may or may not change after trying the changes. We shall see.

 

[Deleted member]

wait.... i want the buffs i mentioned! **** this. just make it so that the timing is harder/easier to escape between grabs and give me my ****ing character buffs.

lolno, difficulty to preform doesn't matter, remember? People are eventually going to get good at doing them, and it would be as if they weren't nerfed at all, with free buffs.

I said "B+ Climber players".

Not "1 B+ Climber player who talks a lot".

>_>

Edit2: Not a bRoomer, FrozenPopo nor do I intend to present an absolute ultimatum. Just throwing my predictions out there.

Well, I'm in favor of removing the infinites, so:
1 IC main want's the infinites removed.
9001 IC mains don't.

 

[Shell]

tnemrot, I'm not sure it works like that.

What happens to "people get good at doing them, and it would be as if they weren't nerfed at all," when you apply the counter argument "people get good at getting out of them?"

 

[FrozenHobo]

tnemrot, I'm not sure it works like that.

What happens to "people get good at doing them, and it would be as if they weren't nerfed at all," when you apply the counter argument "people get good at getting out of them?"

yep.

*points to people like reflex*

dude freakin' breaks grabs in under a second even around/over 80%.

 

[KarateF22]

If youve ever seen M2K ive seen him break out of a 120% grab in one second before someone could do the pass from nana to popo's usmash. If hes anywhere below 50% you CANNOT chaingrab him. He breaks out so quickly and reflexively.... before nana gets over here "grab attempt" lag.

Point is that the ice climbers supposed "infinites" (which are TECHNICALLY infinites but not realistically infinites.... try to chain grab someone to 999%... if you can do it ill call it an infinite) dont need changing.

 

[Deleted member]

Regardless of how good people are at getting out of them, they'll never get out if you throw them fast enough, I never use fully charged smashes to finish them off, you never know how good people are at mashing out.
If infinites stay can we have un-techable footstools again?
Uhh, we're a bit off-topic.

 

[KarateF22]

i wouldnt mind untechable footstools... its easy to avoid a footstool anyways... just be doing something, ANYTHING and you cant be footstooled (the opponent still gets a jump, but you arent shot downwards).

...back on topic, chaingrabs shouldnt be removed. And you know what? i think the most important part of this argument IS the fact that this chaingrab isnt broken. it isnt overpowered, people who belittle that aspect need to stop. That is the most important part of this chaingrab argument. if they were truly OP everyone would play them but they are clearly not. Stop trying to remove a non-broken mechanic, i dont care whatever reason you think compensates it, its not ****ing broken. This argument shouldnt even exist, their chaingrabs are fine. To those saying they are horried without it and thats a good reason to remove it, that makes no sense. If you think they are horrid without it, dont nerf them... buff them. Honestly i think they are basically fine as is. They have a couple spike setup combos, namely sideb to fair, uair to fair, and of course our infamous fthrow/dthrow to fair.

And most importantly, 55% of people think it shouldnt be changed right now, or at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Untechable footstools is likely not going to happen because of the way the teching code works. I wouldn't count on it being back any time soon.

 

[KarateF22]

Untechable footstools is likely not going to happen because of the way the teching code works. I wouldn't count on it being back any time soon.

Wait... so it was unintentionally removed?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wait... so it was unintentionally removed?

Yes, and as of right now we don't know how to fix it. We don't know what made certain moves "untechable" even though you were sent into tumble.

 

[KarateF22]

Yes, and as of right now we don't know how to fix it. We don't know what made certain moves "untechable" even though you were sent into tumble.

Prolly wasnt anything special, your code prolly just overrode it. Do they intend to make it like it was?

 

[Deleted member]

i wouldnt mind untechable footstools... its easy to avoid a footstool anyways... just be doing something, ANYTHING and you cant be footstooled (the opponent still gets a jump, but you arent shot downwards).

...back on topic, chaingrabs shouldnt be removed. And you know what? i think the most important part of this argument IS the fact that this chaingrab isnt broken. it isnt overpowered, people who belittle that aspect need to stop. That is the most important part of this chaingrab argument. if they were truly OP everyone would play them but they are clearly not. Stop trying to remove a non-broken mechanic, i dont care whatever reason you think compensates it, its not ****ing broken. This argument shouldnt even exist, their chaingrabs are fine. To those saying they are horried without it and thats a good reason to remove it, that makes no sense. If you think they are horrid without it, dont nerf them... buff them. Honestly i think they are basically fine as is. They have a couple spike setup combos, namely sideb to fair, uair to fair, and of course our infamous fthrow/dthrow to fair.

And most importantly, 55% of people think it shouldnt be changed right now, or at all.

I've never said I thought they were OP, my main reason for wanting them removed is because some TOs might just ban them, and I don't want IC mains to not be able to (well they'll still be able, but it would be like playing ICs who got their Infinites removed and didn't get m/any buffs in exchange) use IC. It's not a very strong reason, I know, that's why I'm not very adamant about removing them.

 

[KarateF22]

I've never said I thought they were OP, my main reason for wanting them removed is because some TOs might just ban them, and I don't want IC mains to not be able to (well they'll still be able, but it would be like playing ICs who got their Infinites removed and didn't get m/any buffs in exchange) use IC. It's not a very strong reason, I know, that's why I'm not very adamant about removing them.

...you shouldnt give up just because of what others think. No offense, i mean REALLY no offense... but that is the worst reason to give up support for something. instead you should fight harder to show other people why that mindset is not the right one.

 

[cAm8ooo]

At first i was leaning towards keeping the chaingrab and bringin this issue up at a later time after tournament results but then I read this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229732 and changed my mind.

Im sure we can find a great workaround that will keep the Climber's grabs a big part of thier game and great but at the same time make them a more suitable strategy for brawl+.

 

[KarateF22]

er.... how did that thread change your mind? (yes i actually read that) i didnt even see the word chain grab.

*EDIT* Oh i see, first place was a metaknight, marth, and ice climber user... uh... if they use meta knight as well it doesnt really count IMHO. Also, that is vbrawl... which is very different from brawl+ for multiple reasons

 

[cAm8ooo]

read the rest of the thread. It's about mid ways through. Meep destroyed them all with ice climbers. Even in winners finals he destroyed them. Their only chance of winning was to run out the clock and stall the entire game. This is not how i want brawl+ to play especially when we can preserve their grab game but make it better for everyone.

 

[KarateF22]

.....how many good players were there, out of curiousity. Was M2K, Azen, Ally.... any of the really big names there? Because i doubt it.

 

[upwndbykaiibi]

I think u should keep the CG in the tourney. It's fun doing it.^^

 

[cAm8ooo]

Uhh... people like Chudat, Atomsk, Neo. These arent random scrubs. Meep is a wonderful player and im not sayin he didnt deserve to win, im just saying that i would rather see some good grab combos that are doin decent damage but not taking entire lives.

I feel like it would be funner for BOTH players.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I don't know, it just seems like none of them know the matchup, haha.

 

[Deleted member]

That's vBrawl, you know, no safe approaches, no shieldstun, etc...
*facepalms*

 

[cAm8ooo]

That's vBrawl, you know, no safe approaches, no shieldstun, etc...
*facepalms*

They also play brawl+ and meep promises to only alt. grab 5 times. The IC's can still get grabs.

if i play climbers in brawl + al limit my cgs to 5 alt grabs. That stuff shouldnt belong in a fun game like that.

 

[KarateF22]

Gotta point out that technically speaking 5 alt grabs can be more than 5 grabs due to footstool regrabs, spike regrabs, etc. Oh, and did i mention on basically every level in the game you are within 5 fthrows of the ledge (aka, spikedeath). Also, at 0% he gets one dthrow to fair, which DOESNT count as an alt grab as only popo grabs. so you get 6 grabs from 0%.

And i agree with melomaniacal... aside from chu dat they prolly just didnt know the matchup.