Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Juno McGrath]

@ Snap High f-tilt, u can even crouch and wait for him to act, if he double jumps, abuse that with infinite uairs , lol. if he just does a falling aerial, CC and punish. Mix it up though, or his response after the grab will always be to counter what you are doing.

i feel like you cant effectively crouch cancel vs Gannon though?

 

[Gardevior]

You can crouch cancel jab (I believe), all of his tilts, uair and bair at low percentages.

 

[Cloud9157]

Ok, this may be a weird question, but which is stronger, Utilt or Warlock Punch?

My friend plays Jiggs and I can't decide which would be better. I'd like to know so I can capitalize on a missed rest.

 

[-ACE-]

What do I do if I get a grab on Marth at extremely low percents, like around 0-10 or 20%? If I do downthrow it seems like it's too low to get another grab or get off a bair/uair.

At extremely low percents, up-angled ftilt when he DI's in front. Once Marth is at 25% or so and DI's in front the uair is there for the taking. If he DI's behind, you get a regrab anywhere from 0 to ridiculous percents (and obviously a bair starting at roughly 35-40%).

Have any tips of how to break the habit of DI'ing towards chars at lower-mid percentages?

I don't have any specific tips; I just trained myself to pay attention to my damage and react based on that and my position on stage. VS Falcon you can pretty much DI everything away up until 25-30% unless you are close to the edge. If you are at the middle of the stage you want to DI the knee away at low% to avoid double/triple knees. Above roughly 30-35%, depending on your position on stage you also want to DI away but ALWAYS look out for the knee and survival DI it, or at least DI up (or even up and slightly away - both of which are sort of like a weaker version of survival DI.. I do this when I can't decide which way to DI at the last second. Obviously the goal is to make yourself impossible to combo without giving him an easy edgeguarding opportunity.

i feel like you cant effectively crouch cancel vs Gannon though?

I think n0ne was talking about Ganon CC'ing marth's falling aerials...

I played DoH at this past tournament and I catch almost every single turnip and instant z-drop it or throw it back at him. The solution is to NOT throw turnips.

I'm pretty sure this is the best overall answer. Tipman has been recommending this for years.

Ok, this may be a weird question, but which is stronger, Utilt or Warlock Punch?

My friend plays Jiggs and I can't decide which would be better. I'd like to know so I can capitalize on a missed rest.

Utilt is a LOT stronger at lower percentages. I also think it's a lot harder to DS tech. The warlock punch's kb grows at an exponential rate and becomes the strongest at high/very high percentages.

 

[spider_sense]

Warlock punch technically does more damage, but Ganon's utilt has more knock back. So it's way more beneficial to do the utilt.

 

[Gardevior]

Utilt is a LOT stronger at lower percentages. I also think it's a lot harder to DS tech. The warlock punch's kb grows at an exponential rate and becomes the strongest at high/very high percentages.

But if you're hitting Jiggs at high percentages with either move, she should die pretty much regardless, right?


Also, something I've been wondering about doublestick teching. Is it possible to ds tech a move that sends you straight up, like Ganon's fsmash? I'm curious because I consider it sometimes as a kill move if a resting Jiggs is in front of me, but since basically no one around here plays Jiggs (or, if they do, ds techs), I just go with utilt.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

sometimes i try to use usmash against a resting jiggs, but the hitbox is weird, and is often too high for jiggs. i need to look at it more, but i miss like 9 times out of 10.

i'm pretty sure you can, cause i'm fairly confident that i've done so with a few of foxes usmashes, albeit at low-mid percentages.

gard, for now, oceans getting fairly serious about getting good with jiggs. once you feel good there, ask omni for matches. once you feel good there, then ask stingers. stingers is really good, like it or not. i didn't really beat him much, if at all.

 

[Magus420]

Once angles start getting above 55° or so DS-DI stops being useful for surviving stuff, since it stops being techable at lower percents than you'd be able to survive with normal survival DI unless up on a platform or on really low ceilings. Warlock punch and u-tilt are both 45° so they benefit from DS-DI, but u-tilt has such huge base knockback (knockback regardless of total dmg) that it's untechable around 25%+ iirc (on flat ground; if on a slope and you think they'll tech you want to be on the higher part of the slope hitting down it or they can do silly **** like tech falcon punch at 335% when hitting up a slope). With normal survival DI it's something like the 10-15 area I think, depending on the stage/position. WP starts being untechable at like 30-32%+ or so. Down angled f-smash is 60°, normal is 70°, and upwards is 80°.

Knockbackwise Up>Neutral>Down on his f-smash, so up is the best angle as well as most powerful. An easy way to guarantee getting the up angle is press and hold the c-stick upwards during lag of something like a throw/roll/landing lag/etc, and then rotate the c-stick to the side. You can charge it by holding Z. You can get WP started in the air though (jump towards them and start it, respawn and drop/jump into it, etc), so I can't think of many places where f-smash would be useful in place of it. I guess if the rest broke your shield and you recover right near them but don't have the time for a WP and a d-air won't be enough?

 

[n0ne]

Ooops... lol....

Epic fail with my reading skills, my last post was meant to be directed
@ seanthedonconsidine.... my bad , Snap! *goes to edit last post*
Thx for the clear-up , ACE.

Anyways @ Snap, i guess u can drop the turnip as a fakeout while u are in the air , then u can follow up.. u can mix it up because.. that way he`l just kind of be waiting to grab it but get confused cause of the drop.... or, u can just grab it back if it gets thrown back at u ... lol.. i guess u just gotta experiment..

Also @ seanthedonconsidine, if u eat Marths double jump with your high fair, u can even wavedash to jab >repeat>repeat till marth is offstage then uair for the kill.. i feel that combo is perfect against marth because of his weight and jab`s knockback ... pretty situational but its a lovely gimp to be done im sure i have some clips of me doing that.. gonna look for some.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Nobody listens to me?

Just give up the turnip. It will benefit all of us.

Seriously though, your timing should not give Ganon a chance to safely grab the turnip without taking a fair. You must just have the timing off.

 

[n0ne]

Nobody listens to me?

Just give up the turnip. It will benefit all of us.

Seriously though, your timing should not give Ganon a chance to safely grab the turnip without taking a fair. You must just have the timing off.

Although this is true... i think it is good to still have the turnup game so that u can be a little more unpredictable. dont throw turnups ALL THE TIME , just once in a while.. even if ganon grabs and holds it, peach can always backup a bit and just pickup another one... or grab it again... anyways, just my opinion, i repeat remember to mix it up

 

[rpgfighter]

I noticed that sometimes the uairs hit the opponent to the right or sometimes downwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt1Hd8PfwVs

^ Good example is around 0:35.

How would one angle the uair to make it hit like that? Thanks in advance.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Here's a post from Broly about how he plays.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10734181&postcount=29

Lately I've bit the bullet and switched to Fox for Sheiks. It makes it so much easier. Anyone else feel that way?

 

[Magus420]

Yeah, when you mentioned him using the R button it sounded like he switched up the way he does stuff since I remember him not using the shoulder buttons at all before.

 

[-ACE-]

Lately I've bit the bullet and switched to Fox for Sheiks. It makes it so much easier. Anyone else feel that way?

I say always stick with Ganon. Sheik is pretty tough but doable, you just can't make many mistakes at all and capitalize on nearly all of hers. But I can see why you'd try Fox out.

 

[Palpi]

I go fox for sheiks too! I just practiced my fox tech skill for like 45 min.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

you should always stick to ganon... there's nothing more annoying than a ganon who makes less mistakes than the sheik player him/herself

 

[Cloud9157]

I appreciate the feedback on Utilt/Warlock Punch. Now I'll know what to do when given a certain % my friend is at.

Now that I see Sheik, I just had a question about that too. Is the CG on her good from 0-whatever, or does it start/end at certain percents? I've never played a Sheik before. =\

 

[-ACE-]

The cg is legit on sheik 0-90% if done correctly. Once you get her up to 83-85 you can try a smash attack based on DI, which can KO (fsmash if she DI's forward/away, upsmash if she doesn't DI or DI's up). Sometimes I wiff those though, so I usually take her at least to 85% and then aerial. JC grabs help a lot when sheik is at 45% or so and DI's behind.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i just saw on the project M topic that along with being able to buffer spotdodges, you can buffer a jump too. that was brought up because so far, you can't seem to buffer rolls.

with that idea in mind, is it even possible to buffer jumps in melee? if so, would you be able to do something like an auto or an lcanceled fair, fastfall, hold l or r, and use the clue tactic for uair oos and hit the cstick up twice for another uair?

uair, fastfall while holding l or r, up c stick 2x. it'd be an easier way to do a retreating uair wall.

 

[spider_sense]

I go Marth on sheiks just cause I feel he can do more and usually have a much easier time. Anyways, I'm not too sure that you can f-smash at higher percents because she's able to jump out of it.

 

[Gardevior]

use the clue tactic for uair oos and hit the cstick up twice for another uair?

Oh, good, it's an actual tactic. I've been doing that ever since foxy told me it was possible because it's just the easiest way. And foxy can give some weird advice sometimes.


And I remember Magus saying that Melee's buffering system is really selective and weird. He gave getup attacks as an example, but I don't exactly remember what he was talking about.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

buffering getup's are so weird and awkwardly frustrating. sometimes i'm trying to cc jab at too high percent, and i ended up getting knocked down and then buffering a getup attack.

craziness

late *** edit: i just messed around with ganons ledgedash, cause someone told me "if you want different lenghts, just change the angle". that **** is hard. but useful. opponents often go to that awkward ground between a ledgedash grab and a ledgehop jab/grab, but where a get up attack is way too obvious. with the alternate distances, you can diagonal ledgedash grab an opponent using this spacing. but since i use the down to forward technique, its a little weird, cause i have to go down to forward back to down. wavelanding in place without SD'ing has proven to be a slight challenge lol.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

i just saw on the project M topic that along with being able to buffer spotdodges, you can buffer a jump too. that was brought up because so far, you can't seem to buffer rolls.

with that idea in mind, is it even possible to buffer jumps in melee? if so, would you be able to do something like an auto or an lcanceled fair, fastfall, hold l or r, and use the clue tactic for uair oos and hit the cstick up twice for another uair?

uair, fastfall while holding l or r, up c stick 2x. it'd be an easier way to do a retreating uair wall.

Yes, you can buffer jumps, rolls, and spotdodges in melee. Just hold one of the trigger buttons, and then hold the c-stick.

The only problem with the jump buffering Uair wall idea is that you may accidentally roll if you are holding L or R and DI-ing left or right while Uairing.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, I did it a few times while I was also doing the different ledgedashes. It felt weird, and not rlly any faster than just l cancelling for another uair using y and the c stick.

 

[Pr0jecT]

Finally got a recording of my Ganon from tournament.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z73_9GrN1aQ

Let me know what you guys thinks please :D
Theres another Set of me Vs Jman. but its back to back 4stock so I dunno if it really shows off too much lol.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

good set.

you should break the habit of double-jumping right after you get hit at mid % because experienced players can take advantage. tip that i got from lovage.

 

[-ACE-]

wavelanding in place without SD'ing has proven to be a slight challenge lol.

You probably already know this, but ledgehop wavelanding in place has the same timing for R as the RLD, and you don't have to hold a direction. Just DI on stage and hit R a few frames before you land.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah. I just realized there's no point to an in place waveland. It's just a ledgehop for all intensive purposes lol.

I'm playing with bryan and spoon right now. I'm getting wrecked. It's rather discouraging...

 

[Divinokage]

Actually there could be a purpose.. breaking your timing to be less predictable. =)

 

[-ACE-]

Actually there could be a purpose.. breaking your timing to be less predictable. =)

Good point. I think you're one of the best players at doing this.

 

[spider_sense]

Hang in there Chris. Here's some motivation for you. Keep your eyes on me vs Falco @ 1:28, and the ending as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJRk0_wDefw


Btw what's the best CPU level I can practice my combos on? I wanna try different things pending on someone's DI and level 1's ain't cutting it no more.

 

[Cloud9157]

Is there any use for Nair? It seems decent for an approach, but both hits rarely connect for me.

 

[-ACE-]

Is there any use for Nair? It seems decent for an approach, but both hits rarely connect for me.

I almost never use nair. Lately I've been curious about applications with ledgehop nair (onstage) into various followups but I haven't tested it. A lot of people use nair on marth at very low% after a dthrow... but someone at very low% should be DI'ing away regardless of what hit is coming their way, so... you'd never get that 2nd hit and uair does more damage than the first hit of the nair...

spider sense, I usually switch up the CPU difficulty just for a tad of randomness. Usually I stay away from 9's and even 1's because I use 1's more than any others. There really is no comparison between cpu's and humans though, so it doesn't matter all that much imo.

 

[Juno McGrath]

so what makes peach gannon a good team guys?

 

[-ACE-]

so what makes peach gannon a good team guys?

Step 1. Peach dsmash
Step 2. Ganon fair

Haha. But really, aside from their insane ability to wrack up damage on other teams, Ganon and Peach both work well with space, which is exactly what Ganon needs. Peach's moves are fast and have good priority (jab, dsmash, dash attack, bair, dair) so that she can deal with approaches well. Her grab is decent and her throws often set Ganon up for free aerials on fastfallers, as well as edgeguarding opportunities. There's more too, I don't have a lot of experience teaming with Peach (it seems like I was always with a Fox).

 

[SwizzyUK]

Btw what's the best CPU level I can practice my combos on? I wanna try different things pending on someone's DI and level 1's ain't cutting it no more.

A friend of mine who knows a LOT about the game (VA) told me that level 3's have the best DI for combo training, I don't know if that was character specific but worth a try.

 

[DippnDots]

I almost never use nair. Lately I've been curious about applications with ledgehop nair (onstage) into various followups but I haven't tested it.

ledge hop nair is meh, it knocks them up more than away (if you were going to uair), but when you ledge hop it only the first hit comes then you hit the ground. I'd like to say it doesn't reach as far as the uair, but i'm not positive on that. What is nice though is how little lag you have after l canceling it, once again i'm not positive but i think it's quicker than an l canceled uair.

 

[-ACE-]

I hear that Dippn. Like I said I haven't tested anything and usually just uair, I can't help but be curious sometimes. I guess I just want to find something new/useful for nair because I hardly ever use it.

 

[kupo15]

For me, the point of the nair isn't to hit with the second hit at all. Its more of a surprise hit and it hits more upwards which helps with getting off a second hit.

That is some sick stuff spidersense!